Train strikes

T

TSSeasider

Well-known member
Just reading the BBC and the train strikes are obviously leading the news, but there's also a story running parallel about the increase in internet usage as a result.

Got me wondering, whether the introduction of 'blended' working has reduced the impact of striking in that sector in particular?

It's still the most important tool in our arsenal for better conditions etc; but is it as effective as it was?
 
TSSeasider said:
Just reading the BBC and the train strikes are obviously leading the news, but there's also a story running parallel about the increase in internet usage as a result.

Got me wondering, whether the introduction of 'blended' working has reduced the impact of striking in that sector in particular?

It's still the most important tool in our arsenal for better conditions etc; but is it as effective as it was?
Click to expand...
Despite the Tories waffling on about Union Barons, the membership of unions is miniscule compared to the 70s, and the growth of minimum wage, zero hours contracts exacerbates that.

That must make strike action less effective than previous.
 
Wizaard said:
Despite the Tories waffling on about Union Barons, the membership of unions is miniscule compared to the 70s, and the growth of minimum wage, zero hours contracts exacerbates that.

That must make strike action less effective than previous.
Click to expand...
Probably; there will be some more unionised sectors than others I guess?

Union Barons is hilarious.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Public sector and quasi-public sector monopolies.
Click to expand...
Not these days. Public sector used to have deductions from pay of union subs, but this Government has scrapped that, with a subsequent dip in membership as people haven't set up direct debits. I'd be surprised if membership was over 50% of staff.

Edit: Overall, between 1995 and 2021 union membership levels among UK employees fell by 668,000 (9.4%) from 7.11 million to 6.44 million. Union membership as a proportion of employees has fallen from 32.4% in 1995 to 23.1% in 2021.
 
Matesrates said:
We need strikers, and not ones who score own goals
Click to expand...
Bit left wing/anarchist/destroy the system for you Mates I’d have thought. I’m genuinely surprised.

I’m not much fussed either way to be frank. A load of left wing Brexiters got into bed with a load of right wing Brexiters and, guess what, they’ve now fallen out. Well who could have guessed?

Seems both sides prefer the old class warfare and a good old ding dong over what’s “Best for Britain”.

The only time it’ll affect me is if a strike coincides with a match I might’ve gone to. But then I’ll just save my money, find something else to do, and not go. Selfish maybe but as we’re always being told “don’t get wound up about things you can’t control”. Sound advice 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Bit left wing/anarchist/destroy the system for you Mates I’d have thought. I’m genuinely surprised.

I’m not much fussed either way to be frank. A load of left wing Brexiters got into bed with a load of right wing Brexiters and, guess what, they’ve now fallen out. Well who could have guessed?

Seems both sides prefer the old class warfare and a good old ding dong over what’s “Best for Britain”.

The only time it’ll affect me is if a strike coincides with a match I might’ve gone to. But then I’ll just save my money, find something else to do, and not go. Selfish maybe but as we’re always being told “don’t get wound up about things you can’t control”. Sound advice 👍
Click to expand...
Yep, stay selfish and sod everyone else. It's this year's must have 'cool' attitude.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Bit left wing/anarchist/destroy the system for you Mates I’d have thought. I’m genuinely surprised.

I’m not much fussed either way to be frank. A load of left wing Brexiters got into bed with a load of right wing Brexiters and, guess what, they’ve now fallen out. Well who could have guessed?

Seems both sides prefer the old class warfare and a good old ding dong over what’s “Best for Britain”.

The only time it’ll affect me is if a strike coincides with a match I might’ve gone to. But then I’ll just save my money, find something else to do, and not go. Selfish maybe but as we’re always being told “don’t get wound up about things you can’t control”. Sound advice 👍
Click to expand...
Excellent advice
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Yep, stay selfish and sod everyone else. It's this year's must have 'cool' attitude.
Click to expand...
Historically I’d have been like you and sympathetic to the underpaid and exploited struggling to cope with a cost of living crisis. Now it’s more a case of “you’ve made your bed….”

I’m certainly not going to get my neck in a knot on behalf of people who got what they voted for. We’re all adults and at some point have to accept responsibility for our actions. For the RMT and ASLEF that time is now.

It certainly isn’t my fight anyway.
 
Wizaard said:
Not these days. Public sector used to have deductions from pay of union subs, but this Government has scrapped that, with a subsequent dip in membership as people haven't set up direct debits. I'd be surprised if membership was over 50% of staff.

Edit: Overall, between 1995 and 2021 union membership levels among UK employees fell by 668,000 (9.4%) from 7.11 million to 6.44 million. Union membership as a proportion of employees has fallen from 32.4% in 199 to 23.1% in 2021.
Click to expand...
I'd happily pay the union dues by direct debit if my union (PCSU) were actually more interested in representing the average member than trying to overthrow the elected government
 
Unfortunately Pensioners cant strike, and it will be a long, hard, winter with savings having to be made. No more away games for me, a few less pints per home game, heating will be turned down and time on will be reduced both for heating and water. Everything now turned off at the plug when not in use. No stand byes. Curtains will be closed more often to retain heat. I'm sure we will find other ways and means of saving energy.

As is often said on here it was a minority who voted our gov't in as it has been for many a year, it is now a minority who are causing all the upset with their strikes.
 
Curryman said:
Unfortunately Pensioners cant strike, and it will be a long, hard, winter with savings having to be made. No more away games for me, a few less pints per home game, heating will be turned down and time on will be reduced both for heating and water. Everything now turned off at the plug when not in use. No stand byes. Curtains will be closed more often to retain heat. I'm sure we will find other ways and means of saving energy.

As is often said on here it was a minority who voted our gov't in as it has been for many a year, it is now a minority who are causing all the upset with their strikes.
Click to expand...
So because you're grinning and bearing it you think everyone else should?
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So because you're grinning and bearing it you think everyone else should?
Click to expand...
Where did I say that? For a start it's not a case of grinning and bearing, it's a matter of being prudent due to necessity.

Secondly, my remark regarding minorities is fact, not fiction, or a dig at any particular section of society.
 
Curryman said:
Where did I say that? For a start it's not a case of grinning and bearing, it's a matter of being prudent due to necessity.

Secondly, my remark regarding minorities is fact, not fiction, or a dig at any particular section of society.
Click to expand...
Except 'a minority who are causing all the upset with their strikes' ?
 
seasideone said:
….because I don’t think train drivers are underpaid!
Click to expand...
So driving at 140 mph with the lives of 600 people behind you isn't a skilled, responsible job?

The figures quoted in the paper don't reflect the 'normal' pay, but includes plenty of overtime etc, to make a political point, whereas nurses' pay is always quoted as basic pay and ignores OT.

Pay race to the bottom, rather than raise across the board.
 
Wizaard said:
So driving at 140 mph with the lives of 600 people behind you isn't a skilled, responsible job?

The figures quoted in the paper don't reflect the 'normal' pay, but includes plenty of overtime etc, to make a political point, whereas nurses' pay is always quoted as basic pay and ignores OT.

Pay race to the bottom, rather than raise across the board.
Click to expand...
Most of it is automated and no it’s not that skilled.

A nurse trains (so to speak) for years, a train driver learns in less than a year - with most of it on the job so to speak.

Relatively recently 22000 people applied for 100 train driver jobs, so in full answer to your question - it’s easier to become a train driver, there is no shortage of people willing to do it and you get qualified much quicker than a nurse.

Therefore they are probably over paid already!
 
Last edited:
seasideone said:
Most of it is automated and no it’s not that skilled.

A nurse trains (so to speak) for years, a train driver learns in less than a year - with most of it on the job so to speak.

Relatively recently 22000 people applied for 100 train driver jobs, so in full answer to your question - it’s easier to become a train driver, there is no shortage of people willing to do it and you get qualified much quicker than a nurse.

Therefore they are probably over paid already!
Click to expand...
'most of its automated anyway' which part is automated??
 
seasideone said:
Most of it is automated and no it’s not that skilled.

A nurse trains (so to speak) for years, a train driver learns in less than a year - with most of it on the job so to speak.

Relatively recently 22000 people applied for 100 train driver jobs, so in full answer to your question - it’s easier to become a train driver, there is no shortage of people willing to do it and you get qualified much quicker than a nurse.

Therefore they are probably over paid already!
Click to expand...
What an incredibly unconvincing argument.
 
Novelli86 said:
'most of its automated anyway' which part is automated??
Click to expand...
It depends on the age and make and model of the train - but there are wisely many safety overrides in there.

The reality is it takes a lot less time to train as a driver than it does a nurse and more people are applying for train driver jobs than jobs exist - unlike nurses.

Personally I would automate as much as possible on the train network over time (probably 10-20 years in reality) and phase the staff out.
 
seasideone said:
Most of it is automated and no it’s not that skilled.

A nurse trains (so to speak) for years, a train driver learns in less than a year - with most of it on the job so to speak.

Relatively recently 22000 people applied for 100 train driver jobs, so in full answer to your question - it’s easier to become a train driver, there is no shortage of people willing to do it and you get qualified much quicker than a nurse.

Therefore they are probably over paid already!
Click to expand...
So presumably you'll be backing a nurse's strike when it comes to that?
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
So presumably you'll be backing a nurse's strike when it comes to that?
Click to expand...
Not really as I don’t believe that is fair to patients who are the real pawn in a Nurses or medical strike.

….but I do believe they deserve better, but then again I would outsource much of the NHS anyway and reduce management massively.
 
seasideone said:
Most of it is automated and no it’s not that skilled.

A nurse trains (so to speak) for years, a train driver learns in less than a year - with most of it on the job so to speak.

Relatively recently 22000 people applied for 100 train driver jobs, so in full answer to your question - it’s easier to become a train driver, there is no shortage of people willing to do it and you get qualified much quicker than a nurse.

Therefore they are probably over paid already!
Click to expand...
Most of it is automated. Not outside of London on the high speed routes.

So any popular jobs are overpaid? You know that's complete nonsense and a reflection of the disastrous state of the UK jobs market with 7 million working yet getting paid benefits.
 
Wizaard said:
Most of it is automated. Not outside of London on the high speed routes.

So any popular jobs are overpaid? You know that's complete nonsense and a reflection of the disastrous state of the UK jobs market with 7 million working yet getting paid benefits.
Click to expand...
As I have already said I would automate as much as possible over the coming years, if not all.

The tech is available and getting better all the time.

I use a driverless train most days and it’s fab.
 
seasideone said:
As I have already said I would automate as much as possible over the coming years, if not all.

The tech is available and getting better all the time.

I use a driverless train most days and it’s fab.
Click to expand...
Short distances and not at the speed of our InterCity trains.
 
Wizaard said:
Short distances and not at the speed of our InterCity trains.
Click to expand...
Obviously…. But……

Japan are testing driverless bullet trains so it’s not just for slower trains and China already have them in service.

The tech is already here whether you like it or not.
 
seasideone said:
Obviously…. But……

Japan are testing driverless bullet trains so it’s not just for slower trains and China already have them in service.

The tech is already here whether you like it or not.
Click to expand...
China won't be bothered if some crash. They'll just hush it up. I'm not sure the public here are ready for high speed driverless anything, whether it be trains, lorries, planes etc.

Speaking of planes, they fly themselves basically. On your logic you'd get rid of pilots? Overpaid figureheads not really doing anything.
 
seasideone said:
Not really as I don’t believe that is fair to patients who are the real pawn in a Nurses or medical strike.

….but I do believe they deserve better, but then again I would outsource much of the NHS anyway and reduce management massively.
Click to expand...
So your 'length of training' is just some bollocks tacked on to the argument?
 
seasideone said:
Obviously…. But……

Japan are testing driverless bullet trains so it’s not just for slower trains and China already have them in service.

The tech is already here whether you like it or not.
Click to expand...
What happens when the engineers, testers and analysts don’t think they’re paid well enough or get their contract terms changed against their will?

You seem to be an expert but you are aware we have huge skills shortages in automation aren’t you?
 
Wizaard said:
China won't be bothered if some crash. They'll just hush it up. I'm not sure the public here are ready for high speed driverless anything, whether it be trains, lorries, planes etc.

Speaking of planes, they fly themselves basically. On your logic you'd get rid of pilots? Overpaid figureheads not really doing anything.
Click to expand...
China would worry as it would show them as weak or not as advanced if their tech failed.

Japan will care whatever, and they are not that far off going into service 👍

Edit to add.

Pilots will go from planes at some point - the only thing that will slow it down is peoples fear of it happening.

Planes pretty much fly themselves these days anyway.
 
Last edited:
TheRealKingKenny said:
What happens when the engineers, testers and analysts don’t think they’re paid well enough or get their contract terms changed against their will?

You seem to be an expert but you are aware we have huge skills shortages in automation aren’t you?
Click to expand...
The market should dictate salaries - loads of people want to be train drivers, many don’t want to be nurses.

Train drivers are paid enough and I would argue too much.

Regarding shortages in automation - considering I built a large tech recruitment company - I know more about this than most 👍
 
seasideone said:
It depends on the age and make and model of the train - but there are wisely many safety overrides in there.

The reality is it takes a lot less time to train as a driver than it does a nurse and more people are applying for train driver jobs than jobs exist - unlike nurses.

Personally I would automate as much as possible on the train network over time (probably 10-20 years in reality) and phase the staff out.
Click to expand...


Interestingly my sister in law recently qualified as a nurse after quitting train driving due to a fatality she never got over.
She does agree it takes longer to qualify as a nurse, but the information both professions have to learn are actually very similar, it's just that the train drivers initial course is extremely intense and they are expected to learn most of the rule book inside out within 14 weeks. On top of that they are also expected to learn about 2 tractions inside out within that time(how they work, how to fix faults, how fire systems work, air system, brake system, gearbox, Carson shafts etc etc etc)

That's before they go back to their home depots and learn how to drive the trains, learn about the other traction that are at each depot and then learn the routes inside out whilst having what is effectively an intensive driving course for a certain amount of hours(TOC dependant)
 
seasideone said:
The market should dictate salaries - loads of people want to be train drivers, many don’t want to be nurses.

Train drivers are paid enough and I would argue too much.

Regarding shortages in automation - considering I built a large tech recruitment company - I know more about this than most 👍
Click to expand...
The thread is about train strikes, you use the example of drivers because they’re at the extreme end of the pay scale, although as you know the strike isn’t just about drivers. You’ve done that because you disagree with the strike and want to create a convincing argument against it. The mention of nurses follows the same theme, discredit the strike by using an extreme example.

You use oversimplified, extreme examples to try and make a point, pointless soundbites pushing an agenda. It’s transparent and boring.

So far your expertise in automation has gone as far as ‘the tech is there’. No shit Sherlock, we know the tech is there but it’s an incredibly bad idea to put tech in when infrastructure isn’t ready for it. When was the last time you went on a Northern train? Or visited Leeds train station? Or been on a bakerloo or central lines? We’re miles away from full automation in this country.
 
Novelli86 said:
Interestingly my sister in law recently qualified as a nurse after quitting train driving due to a fatality she never got over.
She does agree it takes longer to qualify as a nurse, but the information both professions have to learn are actually very similar, it's just that the train drivers initial course is extremely intense and they are expected to learn most of the rule book inside out within 14 weeks. On top of that they are also expected to learn about 2 tractions inside out within that time(how they work, how to fix faults, how fire systems work, air system, brake system, gearbox, Carson shafts etc etc etc)

That's before they go back to their home depots and learn how to drive the trains, learn about the other traction that are at each depot and then learn the routes inside out whilst having what is effectively an intensive driving course for a certain amount of hours(TOC dependant)
Click to expand...
It’s still easier and quicker to become a train driver.

Your sister in law is an interesting case (and I wouldn’t wish a fatality on anyone driving) but I have to ask the following, if she wouldn’t cope with one fatality while driving a train, why has she gone into nursing - where over time she may will see many?
 
TheRealKingKenny said:
The thread is about train strikes, you use the example of drivers because they’re at the extreme end of the pay scale, although as you know the strike isn’t just about drivers. You’ve done that because you disagree with the strike and want to create a convincing argument against it. The mention of nurses follows the same theme, discredit the strike by using an extreme example.

You use oversimplified, extreme examples to try and make a point, pointless soundbites pushing an agenda. It’s transparent and boring.

So far your expertise in automation has gone as far as ‘the tech is there’. No shit Sherlock, we know the tech is there but it’s an incredibly bad idea to put tech in when infrastructure isn’t ready for it. When was the last time you went on a Northern train? Or visited Leeds train station? Or been on a bakerloo or central lines? We’re miles away from full automation in this country.
Click to expand...
They are not oversimplified - but I agree they do not suit your arguments.

Last time I was in the UK in April I used the service from Manchester Airport to PLF.

If you read what I say, I am not about putting tech into an infrastructure that isn’t ready - I said it would take 10-20years - and yes it should happen.

The sooner it’s automated the better!!!!
 
seasideone said:
The market should dictate salaries - loads of people want to be train drivers, many don’t want to be nurses.

Train drivers are paid enough and I would argue too much.

Regarding shortages in automation - considering I built a large tech recruitment company - I know more about this than most 👍
Click to expand...
Ok, how much does it cost to fully automate British Railways, and how far down the line does it begin to pay for itself?

From the information I have seen(granted it's not the most reliable and only off a few railway forums) it would cost trillions to upgrade the railway to make it fit for purpose in this country, and you could pay the current railway staff a vastly inflated wage for nearly centuries before it actually paid for itself.
 
Novelli86 said:
Ok, how much does it cost to fully automate British Railways, and how far down the line does it begin to pay for itself?

From the information I have seen(granted it's not the most reliable and only off a few railway forums) it would cost trillions to upgrade the railway to make it fit for purpose in this country, and you could pay the current railway staff a vastly inflated wage for nearly centuries before it actually paid for itself.
Click to expand...
All long journeys start with one step.

Get your easy wins first, but if you don’t start it will never happen.
 
seasideone said:
It’s still easier and quicker to become a train driver.

Your sister in law is an interesting case (and I wouldn’t wish a fatality on anyone driving) but I have to ask the following, if she wouldn’t cope with one fatality while driving a train, why has she gone into nursing - where over time she may will see many?
Click to expand...
A mixture of she couldn't face killing anybody else(she saw it that way)and she still struggles with the noise/mess, and so wants to save peoples lives instead.

Quicker? Yes
Easier? Depends on how you look at it. It's basically the same, just not done across many placements lasting 4 years.
 
seasideone said:
All long journeys start with one step.

Get your easy wins first, but if you don’t start it will never happen.
Click to expand...
But is it an easy win if it's costing the tax payer trillions for say 200 years, on top of a few thousand people's extra benefits payments.

Surely the win would be employed staff, on a decent wage that can contribute to the economy?


I'm not arguing btw, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion.
I obviously massively disagree 🤣 I am of course a driver myself also and have compared notes with many people on some of these issues so I do think I'm right on some of our differences of opinion. But I'm actually quite limited on my information of automation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top