Vaccine passports/certificates

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Adams Kebab

Well-known member
This seems to be gathering pace again despite numerous denials it wouldn’t, shock.

First it was that Mr Sport loving and the man on top of his brief Oliver Dowden saying we would have them to get people into football grounds for the Euros & now Johnson is on it, “I find myself in this long national conversation thinking very deeply about it" adding that the public "want me as prime minister to take all the action I can to protect them". What? Has personal responsibility gone now? Evaluating our own risks? Or are we in the hands of a guy who brushes his hair with a balloon? Can’t wait.

The idea that pubs, let’s take one close to our heart in the brilliant Armfield Club as an example. Already been shafted after opening and the foolish ‘substantial meal rule’, now has to have someone on the door (just waiting for them to say it creates jobs) to check your certificate and has to alienate younger people who haven’t had the vaccine yet but had to put their lives on hold for the vulnerable despite there being 0.06% risk to the lives, really is the work of the devil.

What Country are we in again? In fairness Johnson added it “may be left to the publicans to decide” so hopefully any landlord with a brain cell will sack it off as the halfwit idea it is. We live our life by protecting ourselves, not by worrying if table 2 have had the vaccine, this fear porn has to stop.

Rightly or wrongly I’ve never had much of any interest in politics till the past 12 months, which I am actually grateful for now. I’m guessing a lot of it is playing politics and posturing, but I find it concerning where we are heading and the control that has and is being enforced with very little evidence.

Common sense please come back we miss you.
 
Adams Kebab said:
This seems to be gathering pace again despite numerous denials it wouldn’t, shock.

First it was that Mr Sport loving and the man on top of his brief Oliver Dowden saying we would have them to get people into football grounds for the Euros & now Johnson is on it, “I find myself in this long national conversation thinking very deeply about it" adding that the public "want me as prime minister to take all the action I can to protect them". What? Has personal responsibility gone now? Evaluating our own risks? Or are we in the hands of a guy who brushes his hair with a balloon? Can’t wait.

The idea that pubs, let’s take one close to our heart in the brilliant Armfield Club as an example. Already been shafted after opening and the foolish ‘substantial meal rule’, now has to have someone on the door (just waiting for them to say it creates jobs) to check your certificate and has to alienate younger people who haven’t had the vaccine yet but had to put their lives on hold for the vulnerable despite there being 0.06% risk to the lives, really is the work of the devil.

What Country are we in again? In fairness Johnson added it “may be left to the publicans to decide” so hopefully any landlord with a brain cell will sack it off as the halfwit idea it is. We live our life by protecting ourselves, not by worrying if table 2 have had the vaccine, this fear porn has to stop.

Rightly or wrongly I’ve never had much of any interest in politics till the past 12 months, which I am actually grateful for now. I’m guessing a lot of it is playing politics and posturing, but I find it concerning where we are heading and the control that has and is being enforced with very little evidence.

Common sense please come back we miss you.
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At least it creates jobs
 
Unlikely to happen imo, too many problems, those who haven’t had it, those who can’t have it etc., there’s a suggestion that those groups would have to produce evidence of a negative test, but how long would that last, would they have to have one weekly?
 
I just don’t see how this could be approved.

How can someone of a certain younger age be refused access to something when they haven’t even been offered the vaccine yet? I get the argument is a negative test result but you can show a negative result from a test a day ago and by that time be positive.

As Adams Kebab eludes too, we have to live ourselves and I personally will be having the jab when offered but respect those that don’t want it know the potential risks by socialising but shouldn’t be discriminated against for not having it, having the vaccine isn’t a legal entity is it.

I just don’t see this idea working. How would the young people say the 18-21’s react too this, they are missing out on the party years as it is and then are told they can’t go to the pub but the older generation who they have effectively been protecting by being in lockdown (alongside themselves of course but obviously the vulnerable are more at risk) can? I appreciate there is more to life then getting pissed but this is what a lot of young people like to do and socialise and it’s good for mental health to get out and about. Let’s face it, most of us did the same when we were 18 and care free but I just don’t feel until EVERYONE has been offered the jab that they can even put this on the table. Then there is the second discussion of those who don’t want it should they really be not allowed to the pub, surely they have some human rights?
 
At the moment are large proportion of those with the vaccine already, will be supporters of the government. A large proportion of those without, won’t be supporters of the government. Seems like the government will implement if they see benefits- which might also include people not going abroad for a holiday and spending the equivalent money in the U.K.
 
Old_Laytonian said:
I can't see Pub Landlords making the decision, they're hardly likely to turn away business after all they've been through
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My thought exactly.

It's also a question of who the clientelle is, if most of your customers are under 40 then are they going to turn them away until the end of July, and once the vast majority of those under 40 have been vaccinated, what's the point in checking anyway.
 
In the scheme of things the short delay between premises re-opening and all adults being offered the vaccine is de minimis

The reality is most adults will have been offered vaccines by June anyway as we are ahead of schedule

If business owners want to impose restrictions they should be allowed to
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
In the scheme of things the short delay between premises re-opening and all adults being offered the vaccine is de minimis

The reality is most adults will have been offered vaccines by June anyway as we are ahead of schedule

If business owners want to impose restrictions they should be allowed to
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No they shouldn't
 
What a load of old bollox, time to stop all this utter garbage. We’re in danger of changing basic principles and rights into a gestapo state. Give over ffs.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
This has changed my mind about being vaccinated tbh. I’ll be waiting until the Government confirms there will be no domestic vaccine certification and until they do I won’t be having a vaccine.
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Unless that kind of protest has widespread support in large numbers it would be a bit like cutting your nose of to spite your face.
Or am I misinterpreting your reasons?
 
Johnno said:
Unless that kind of protest has widespread support in large numbers it would be a bit like cutting your nose of to spite your face.
Or am I misinterpreting your reasons?
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Hopefully it will get widespread support... I may start an online petition promoting the idea this week in fact.

From a moral perspective I find it quite abhorrent that this kind of cooercive approach to vaccination would be considered by any British Government or the British Public. It really goes againts everything we stand for as a Nation. It does genuinely make me question exactly who is pulling the strings and whether there is an underlying agenda as I understand there is so called 'International Pressure'.

I appreciate that we cannot control what other COuntries choose to do and therefore British Citzens wishing to fly abroad may be required to provide some proof of Vaccination for a time, but I fail to see how this could be justified on a domestic basis. I also object to TAM's suggestions that buisinesses should simply be allowed to impose discriminatory restrictions and I'd like to see the Government legislate to prevent that TBH.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
In the scheme of things the short delay between premises re-opening and all adults being offered the vaccine is de minimis

The reality is most adults will have been offered vaccines by June anyway as we are ahead of schedule

If business owners want to impose restrictions they should be allowed to
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Why would any business owner want to impose further restrictions on its customers?

Should they give cotton wool jackets out as well on entry?

It’s farcical.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Their gaff, their rules.
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That's a very naive way to look at it IMHO....

Wherever businesses interact with the Public we need to ensure that they operate safely, legally and in a way which is non-discriminatory (insofar as that is practicable). So for me it should be more a case of "Engage with the Public Properly or not at All"
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
That's a very naive way to look at it IMHO....

Wherever businesses interact with the Public we need to ensure that they operate safely, legally and in a way which is non-discriminatory (insofar as that is practicable). So for me it should be more a case of "Engage with the Public Properly or not at All"
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That is the way the world works, businesses have the right to decide who to trade with almost without limit. What you're asking for is that vaccine status becomes a protected characteristic similar to race, religion or sexuality, I'm not sure that's something I agree with.

Also the key word is safely, if the business determines that it is not safe to trade with the unvaccinated then that's their call.
 
A cert/passport will be required to open up foreign travel- I think we all accept that will be the case.

Frome there it's a short step to domestic life as well.

What people forget is that a cert/ will allow pubs etc to have more customers in and is a more attractive proposition for customers. It would reduce the need for SD and would allow people inside. The hospitality industry would welcome a thought out method to allow this to happen.

It's very unfair though on the younger element, so I can see pubs etc restricted to outdoor sales only for all until a cert/ can be rolled out to the vast majority.

It should be encouraged, welcomed and needed for late summer/autumn.
 
Lost Seasider said:
That is the way the world works, businesses have the right to decide who to trade with almost without limit. What you're asking for is that vaccine status becomes a protected characteristic similar to race, religion or sexuality, I'm not sure that's something I agree with.

Also the key word is safely, if the business determines that it is not safe to trade with the unvaccinated then that's their call.
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Im not sure what you mean “That is the way the world works”?

In Britain we have always adopted strict standards for the way in which Business interact with the Public.

And the key for me here isn’t safety, because I really don’t believe that most businesses are remotely capable of evaluating the risks posed by Covid 19 or that they can be trusted to implement fair and proportional measures should they ever be necessary.

I appreciate that we have been in the midst of an all consuming epidemic, but it’s important that we also take a breath and regain some perspective.... Focus on what we are about as a Nation and ultimately treat Covid in the same respect that we treat the innumerable other risks that we face on a day to day basis as part of being alive and actually living.

So for me we need to carefully resist this clamour for a discriminatory ID based system and seek to employ proportionate measures that reflect the risk both now and in the future....

The implementation of a system that requires ID proof of Medical Status, simply to interact with normal day to day life is draconian and totally unnecessary and IMO it’s the thin end of the wedge.... You can bet your life that “If it was necessary for Covid, then it’s also necessary for... ‘insert latest fear porn buzzword’” will be how this processes.

That doesn’t mean that, in the short term, we might not require some precautions that reflect the risk, but they need to be proportionate and short term and IMHO the basis for measures should be strictly controlled to avoid discrimination.

At some point I’m afraid that we all need to pull our big boy pants on and accept that Covid is likely to be a fairly limited risk disease that may take people’s life just like many others and stop these silly ideas whereby cure is likely to be worse than the disease.
 
So many questions on this. What about people who can't have it for health reasons, how about children under 18 will they be banned from venues? How many pubs employ young staff who haven't yet had it. I can't see it happening to be honest and I don't agree with employers having the right to dictate.
 
Shandypants said:
So many questions on this. What about people who can't have it for health reasons, how about children under 18 will they be banned from venues? How many pubs employ young staff who haven't yet had it. I can't see it happening to be honest and I don't agree with employers having the right to dictate.
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Every pub has the right to refuse to serve on any old spurious grounds. Some publicans may want to impose a proof of vaccination. That's their right.
 
Wizaard said:
Every pub has the right to refuse to serve on any old spurious grounds. Some publicans may want to impose a proof of vaccination. That's their right.
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It’s not their right at all or it certainly shouldn’t be.. They should no more be able to refuse someone for not having a vaccine certification than they should for being Black... the very idea of this is abhorrent.

It's amazing what fear can do to people and also what a Country and lilly livered cowards we have become in the UK.... We're simply so far removed from death and disease that our fear of it drives such irrational thinking.
 
It’s not due to be implemented, even if it is implemented, until everyone has had the chance to be vaccinated.
So youngsters won’t miss out.
 
There'll be carnage if some youngsters are turned away from venues whatever they are, they have suffered more by having their freedoms, jobs & further education etc taken away or severely disrupted, they haven't had the chance to be vaccinated yet, they are unlikely to have severe symptoms if they get the virus. Yet us old buggers can start living again & fuck them. There will be some jobs created, we'll need a riot squad. When this vaccine passport was first mentioned I thought it would make me personally feel safer, but having considered how things stand now, it's a no from me. The oldies (me included) have had a jab, the younger ones won't benefit much from it anyway, so what's the problem. Unless the vaccine doesn't work, that's something that only time will tell.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s not their right at all or it certainly shouldn’t be.. They should no more be able to refuse someone for not having a vaccine certification than they should for being Black... the very idea of this is abhorrent.

It's amazing what fear can do to people and also what a Country and lilly livered cowards we have become in the UK.... We're simply so far removed from death and disease that our fear of it drives such irrational thinking.
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As a licensee you do have the right to refuse entry to whomever you wish, however the reasons for any refusal must not be unlawful. For instance equality legislation makes it unlawful to refuse entry on the grounds of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation and disability amongst other things.

If the need for a vaccine passport is brought in then that legislation will cover this scenario.

As I said, there is nothing to stop you imposing conditions at your discretion.
 
Wizaard said:
As a licensee you do have the right to refuse entry to whomever you wish, however the reasons for any refusal must not be unlawful. For instance equality legislation makes it unlawful to refuse entry on the grounds of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation and disability amongst other things.

If the need for a vaccine passport is brought in then that legislation will cover this scenario.

As I said, there is nothing to stop you imposing conditions at your discretion.
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That’s why legislation is required to prevent anyone from being discriminated against based on vaccination status.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
In the scheme of things the short delay between premises re-opening and all adults being offered the vaccine is de minimis

The reality is most adults will have been offered vaccines by June anyway as we are ahead of schedule

If business owners want to impose restrictions they should be allowed to
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Not if the EU-imposed vaccine shortage happens.
 
There is a difference in an individual pub or pub chain asking for proof of vaccination and the Government ruling that all pubs must see confirmation that their customers are vaccinated.
If it is the former I will just choose to go to a pub where I do not have to show my papers in order to have a pint.
If it is the latter I will not go to pubs at all and I will be concerned at why the Government wants this level of control over my life!
The Government should be persuading and convincing us that the vaccine is a good thing, they should not be effectively forcing us to have it by taking away our civil liberties.
 
It opens a can of worms. Will children be prevented from going to school if they haven't been vaccinated against measles? Surely its personal choice, I've had the vaccine and I'm led to believe it protects me. If my wife/colleagues/barman etc etc don't have it thats there problem if the get ill with covid.
 
Wizaard said:
As a licensee you do have the right to refuse entry to whomever you wish, however the reasons for any refusal must not be unlawful. For instance equality legislation makes it unlawful to refuse entry on the grounds of race, religion, sex or sexual orientation and disability amongst other things.

If the need for a vaccine passport is brought in then that legislation will cover this scenario.

As I said, there is nothing to stop you imposing conditions at your discretion.
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Not quite right as you can discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic

The Equality Act says discrimination can be justified if the person who's discriminating against you can show it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. If necessary, it's the courts which will decide if discrimination can be justified.

What’s a legitimate aim?​

A legitimate aim is the reason behind the discrimination. This reason must not be discriminatory in itself and it must be a genuine or real reason.

Here are examples of legitimate aims:

  • the health, safety and welfare of individuals
  • running an efficient service
  • requirements of a business
  • desire to make profit.
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
Not quite right as you can discriminate on the grounds of a protected characteristic

The Equality Act says discrimination can be justified if the person who's discriminating against you can show it’s a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. If necessary, it's the courts which will decide if discrimination can be justified.

What’s a legitimate aim?​

A legitimate aim is the reason behind the discrimination. This reason must not be discriminatory in itself and it must be a genuine or real reason.

Here are examples of legitimate aims:

  • the health, safety and welfare of individuals
  • running an efficient service
  • requirements of a business
  • desire to make profit.
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Think that first bullet covers it
 
Wizaard said:
Think that first bullet covers it
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So clearly we are now going to need a specific revision to the Discrimination Act that ensures that you non-vaccination is not considered to be a reasonable excuse for discrimination and doesn’t qualify as a safety concern.

I suspect it would be difficult to justify on that basis in any case as the proportionate safety risk posed by an unvaccinated person vs a vaccinated person is likely to be minute....
 
Let's not mince around here. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a shit human. Worse still, anyone who provided ridicule/fake reassurance last year when it was suggested as a possible outcome. But now it's close to realisation as a plan, is all for it.

Yep, shit humans of the 'Its only a shower' variety.
 
rockontommy said:
Let's not mince around here. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a shit human. Worse still, anyone who provided ridicule/fake reassurance last year when it was suggested as a possible outcome. But now it's close to realisation as a plan, is all for it.

Yep, shit humans of the 'Its only a shower' variety.
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I’m puzzled when some people say “if it means us getting back to normality then I don’t mind”.

What is normal about showing a passport/certificate to show your health status to go the pub?
 
rockontommy said:
Let's not mince around here. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea is a shit human. Worse still, anyone who provided ridicule/fake reassurance last year when it was suggested as a possible outcome. But now it's close to realisation as a plan, is all for it.

Yep, shit humans of the 'Its only a shower' variety.
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I don’t mind saying it scares the shit out of me.... Forget Covid... The fact that British Citzens are remotely accepting of these kinds of ideas and not weird fascist types, but supposedly normal everyday people, is ** scary...

Have we been through some kind of collective brainwashing session ?
 
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