Why are we accepting this?

Shandypants

Shandypants

Well-known member
Is there anything this govt over is 12 year tenure hasn't wrecked? All public funded services are on their knees, industry that was privatised not fit for purpose and we face a higher tax burden than we have for decades. This country is suffering a slow puncture and its now flat, will we ever really recover? I can't see how we will sufficiently grow in economic terms to arrest this decline, our productivity is low compared to the rest of Europe, we have put huge barriers up to our biggest trading partner(and been belligerent about it) and the country needs huge amounts of investment which is currently at such a low point. The fact the armes forces are in such decline sums it up, this govt seem to pride themselves on being big supporters, the reality it's a lie.
Maybe Truss and Kwartang were right the austerity drive of Hunt and Sunak will only plunge this country into a worse mess. To add further insult we had the chancellor of the exchequer and the PM's wife avoiding tax. Shouldn't we be a little more upset about all this?

news.sky.com

US general warns British Army no longer top-level fighting force, defence sources reveal

Rishi Sunak risks failing in his role as "wartime prime minister" unless he takes urgent action given the growing security threat posed by Vladimir Putin, it has been warned, with calls for a significant hike in spending.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
 
We don't look after people with basics anymore. I am hearing of one sports venue in the North West where the local council is so strapped for cash, they are looking at closing it down.

Hundreds of people of all ages use the venue each week for the benefit of their health.

What is in the heads of this generation of politicians? What are their aims? Why is government working against people and not for them? What are we living for? How has the cost of something gone so far ahead in their thought process over the value of something, especially the value of things which make positive impacts on the lives of people here?
 
The Government always talks in terms of spending more now than they've ever done. Even if true - and with the military it's smoke and mirrors - then it's besides the point. Public sector spending plans have to be based on current and long term need, not on the arithmetic of pound notes. If the cry from the Government is, that's not affordable, then it must be made affordable.
 
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Shandypants said:
Is there anything this govt over is 12 year tenure hasn't wrecked? All public funded services are on their knees, industry that was privatised not fit for purpose and we face a higher tax burden than we have for decades. This country is suffering a slow puncture and its now flat, will we ever really recover? I can't see how we will sufficiently grow in economic terms to arrest this decline, our productivity is low compared to the rest of Europe, we have put huge barriers up to our biggest trading partner(and been belligerent about it) and the country needs huge amounts of investment which is currently at such a low point. The fact the armes forces are in such decline sums it up, this govt seem to pride themselves on being big supporters, the reality it's a lie.
Maybe Truss and Kwartang were right the austerity drive of Hunt and Sunak will only plunge this country into a worse mess. To add further insult we had the chancellor of the exchequer and the PM's wife avoiding tax. Shouldn't we be a little more upset about all this?
Click to expand...

If this forum is anything to go by, I think people are more likely to be "upset" by an array of relatively insignificant issues often confected by the media, including a perceived indifference to grooming gangs, wokism (whatever that actually is), Meghan Markle, so called culture wars, and a host of other stuff. It`s the way we roll now in this country. There is not only an economic and moral decline, there is a marked decline in sensibilities and critical thinking.

Must take issue with the suggestion that "maybe Truss and Kwarteng were right...."

Nothing they did came close to being on nodding terms with `right`! They giddily promoted hubristic ideology over pragmatism and disregarded the checks and balances necessary for a democracy to function effectively.

They illustrate the epithet that "politics is a good career for second rate minds"....;)
 
Shandypants said:
Is there anything this govt over is 12 year tenure hasn't wrecked? All public funded services are on their knees, industry that was privatised not fit for purpose and we face a higher tax burden than we have for decades. This country is suffering a slow puncture and its now flat, will we ever really recover? I can't see how we will sufficiently grow in economic terms to arrest this decline, our productivity is low compared to the rest of Europe, we have put huge barriers up to our biggest trading partner(and been belligerent about it) and the country needs huge amounts of investment which is currently at such a low point. The fact the armes forces are in such decline sums it up, this govt seem to pride themselves on being big supporters, the reality it's a lie.
Maybe Truss and Kwartang were right the austerity drive of Hunt and Sunak will only plunge this country into a worse mess. To add further insult we had the chancellor of the exchequer and the PM's wife avoiding tax. Shouldn't we be a little more upset about all this?

news.sky.com

US general warns British Army no longer top-level fighting force, defence sources reveal

Rishi Sunak risks failing in his role as "wartime prime minister" unless he takes urgent action given the growing security threat posed by Vladimir Putin, it has been warned, with calls for a significant hike in spending.
news.sky.com news.sky.com
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Time to rebuild the military - go for 4.2% GDP, but have everything designed and manufactured in England and Wales. Take the uplift from the overseas aid budget as lets be honest, what we are providing to Ukraine, is precisely that. Economic stimulus, makes us safer and very palatable to a decent size of the electorate.

There's loads more stuff they could do; but they are too busy fighting fires of their own making which continue to happen. I actually think that Boris Johnson has embedded a culture of 'riding it out' into the Conservative Party - which is probably more damaging in the long term than forgetting to pay £5m in taxes. I can't see how they can turn it around in two years; but you never know.
 
TSSeasider said:
Time to rebuild the military - go for 4.2% GDP, but have everything designed and manufactured in England and Wales. Take the uplift from the overseas aid budget as lets be honest, what we are providing to Ukraine, is precisely that. Economic stimulus, makes us safer and very palatable to a decent size of the electorate.

There's loads more stuff they could do; but they are too busy fighting fires of their own making which continue to happen. I actually think that Boris Johnson has embedded a culture of 'riding it out' into the Conservative Party - which is probably more damaging in the long term than forgetting to pay £5m in taxes. I can't see how they can turn it around in two years; but you never know.
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I mentioned 'smoke and mirrors' in my post above. That is because the Government includes expenditure on the nuclear deterrent and forces pensions to maintain their claim of spending more than ever on defence. In the meantime, the Army, Navy and RAF have been steadily run down. The full-time manpower of all three services needs increasing. We need a military capability that is, at the very least, capable of holding off an attacker. I'm not talking here of a WW2 style invasion of troops but a missile and drone attack aimed at destroying the will of the people to stay in a fight.

How can this be done? Two approaches are immediately apparent: a fiscal reshaping of taxation that raises the tax take by adding an additional higher rate to become effective at £70k of income and a top rate to be introduced at £300k. Also, Increases to corporation tax and capital gains tax and legislation to ensure that profits that are made in the UK are taxed in the UK.

The other approach would be to focus the UK military on very specific roles within NATO. We should not be policing the worlds hotspots but providing highly technical rapid response and special forces roles with the RAF focussing on home defence and ground support of troops in forward defence operations. The Navy would retain its wider scope of operations, including the deployment of the nuclear deterrent.
 
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Matesrates said:
I don’t think we’d be in any better position whatever party was in government, the 2008 crash started the problem and then the pandemic and Ukraine war have had a mad effect.
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Mates, the Tories under Cameron and Osborne deliberately reduced spending on local authority grants, health, housing and social services in their austerity package. The Tories to this day have done nothing to redress these cuts sufficiently and now use the mantra of levelling up to congratulate themselves on the penny packages they're handing out. Meanwhile, essential public services have been allowed to wither on the vine. Well, now they're reaping the whirlwind of underpaid and undervalued public servants.
 
I’m positive that the government genuinely hoped for COVID to wipe out a few million more pensioners - the vaccine they had no choice on in the end.

A good cull of pensioners and particularly war veterans would have nicely filled the coffers. Plan b was to piss off all the hospital staff enough that strikes occur and offer a shocking service to save pensioner this winter.

Nice conspiracy hey? 😉
 
Chunkylad said:
I’m positive that the government genuinely hoped for COVID to wipe out a few million more pensioners - the vaccine they had no choice on in the end.

A good cull of pensioners and particularly war veterans would have nicely filled the coffers. Plan b was to piss off all the hospital staff enough that strikes occur and offer a shocking service to save pensioner this winter.

Nice conspiracy hey? 😉
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Yes, pensioners should be put down if they get to 80
 
Matesrates said:
Yes, pensioners should be put down if they get to 80
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I actually think that might have been in Liz Truss next manifesto if she’d have survived in power.

Pension age raised to 75, cull at 80

“You’ve had your 5 years you sponging fuckers and now it’s time to kiss the flag and go”
 
Chunkylad said:
I actually think that might have been in Liz Truss next manifesto if she’d have survived in power.

Pension age raised to 75, cull at 80

“You’ve had your 5 years you sponging fuckers and now it’s time to kiss the flag and go”
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Lucky me, I’m 80
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Mates, the Tories under Cameron and Osborne deliberately reduced spending on local authority grants, health, housing and social services in their austerity package. The Tories to this day have done nothing to redress these cuts sufficiently and now use the mantra of levelling up to congratulate themselves on the penny packages they're handing out. Meanwhile, essential public services have been allowed to wither on the vine. Well, now they're reaping the whirlwind of underpaid and undervalued public servants.
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I still think we’d be no better off under labour, yes they may well have spent more on public services, but the debt mountain would be massively worse and public servants (I don’t like that term, they’re doing a job, a service just like anyone else) and they wouldn’t be able to offer them more money
 
I think culling old people would be a vote winner, sort out the economy, housing shortage, non of that inheritance going to rest homes…roads would be less cluttered etc …👍🤣…
I’m thinkin around 75-80 before they become to much of a burden….😁🍺🤣
 
How are you going to kill me? Lethal injection? Firing squad? Let’s face it Wetherspoons in Cleveleys would find their turnover hit, an M block at Bloomfield Road would be lost, that’s just for starters.
 
Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life
 
Bob Hatton said:
Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to oay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life
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Well said
 
spudgun said:
If this forum is anything to go by, I think people are more likely to be "upset" by an array of relatively insignificant issues often confected by the media, including a perceived indifference to grooming gangs, wokism (whatever that actually is), Meghan Markle, so called culture wars, and a host of other stuff. It`s the way we roll now in this country. There is not only an economic and moral decline, there is a marked decline in sensibilities and critical thinking.

Must take issue with the suggestion that "maybe Truss and Kwarteng were right...."

Nothing they did came close to being on nodding terms with `right`! They giddily promoted hubristic ideology over pragmatism and disregarded the checks and balances necessary for a democracy to function effectively.

They illustrate the epithet that "politics is a good career for second rate minds"....;)
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I agree with most of that. Where I disagree with you is that I do in fact agree (in a very small way) with the statement “maybe Truss and Kwarteng were right”.

IMO they were partially right and what they got right was their view that austerity doesn’t work. That’s unarguable when you look at the Cameron/Osborne years. What the economy desperately needs, and hasn’t had for quite a long time, is growth.

Where I fundamentally disagree with Truss/Kwarteng (and agree with you) is the way in which you achieve growth. It’s not via hand outs to the rich and hoping for trickle down economics. That’s BS. Always had been. Always will be. It’s about encouraging and incentivising investment in new industries focused in particular on the green sector. As opposed to focusing financial services, bankers and money laundering and retaining our position as the leader in the laundering of dirty money.

There’s a better way to bring this country back. But the current incumbents aren’t the solution.
 
TSSeasider said:
Time to rebuild the military - go for 4.2% GDP, but have everything designed and manufactured in England and Wales. Take the uplift from the overseas aid budget as lets be honest, what we are providing to Ukraine, is precisely that. Economic stimulus, makes us safer and very palatable to a decent size of the electorate.

There's loads more stuff they could do; but they are too busy fighting fires of their own making which continue to happen. I actually think that Boris Johnson has embedded a culture of 'riding it out' into the Conservative Party - which is probably more damaging in the long term than forgetting to pay £5m in taxes. I can't see how they can turn it around in two years; but you never know.
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Austerity mortally wounded this country and brexit has put the nail in the coffin. I agree we should design and manufacture in this country, not sure whether there is a political will though, the lowest bidder wins and there is a long history of foreign companies building trains, nuclear power stations etc. We've spent the North Sea oil and gas windfall on tax cuts for short term aims, if only this had been reinvested into infrastructure projects we could have been far more productive. It's a sorry tale and I'm not convinced we will recover properly from this.
Matesrates said:
I don’t think we’d be in any better position whatever party was in government, the 2008 crash started the problem and then the pandemic and Ukraine war have had a mad effect.
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I'm sure the banking crash and covid also affected Germany, they have good infrastructure and the luxury of functioning trains that run like clockwork.
 
Bob Hatton said:
Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life
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Where is the money coming from?

From growth.

And you don’t get growth from austerity and handing out more money to the rich. You get it from encouraging and incentivising investment in industries that will create well paid jobs. And the tax collection goes up.

I thought austerity was the wrong way to go in 2010 and nothing I’ve seen since persuades me otherwise.

It’s a long road back but that’s because we’ve been on the wrong road for a long time. About 13 years to be precise.
 
Bob Hatton said:
Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life
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We've had stagnant wages since 2009. Profits have risen so shareholders have been rewarded, why should working people shoulder the burden?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Where is the money coming from?

From growth.

And you don’t get growth from austerity and handing out more money to the rich. You get it from encouraging and incentivising investment in industries that will create well paid jobs. And the tax collection goes up.

I thought austerity was the wrong way to go in 2010 and nothing I’ve seen since persuades me otherwise.

It’s a long road back but that’s because we’ve been on the wrong road for a long time. About 13 years to be precise.
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How would you encourage growth? Would you settle the wage dusputes? Isn't it the rich which own the companies that you want to invest in to grow?
 
Matesrates said:
How are you going to kill me? Lethal injection? Firing squad? Let’s face it Wetherspoons in Cleveleys would find their turnover hit, an M block at Bloomfield Road would be lost, that’s just for starters.
Click to expand...
I’m going for a hunger games style fight to the death Mates. You choose your weapon and survivors get to live until next year. Proper pay for view (or dodgy ip stream) for the masses.

Keeps us entertained and it’s all for the good of the planet 😁
 
Bob Hatton said:
Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life
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I am going to offer the option of ‘tax US corporations’ like Amazon.
Also shut down option of tax havens
Thirdly ask Dido Harding and Michelle Mone for the money back.

Just a start 👍
 
Shandypants said:
We've had stagnant wages since 2009. Profits have risen so shareholders have been rewarded, why should working people shoulder the burden?
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They don't shoulder the burden, they have been paid and are free to move to any better paid job they are qualified to undertake. The shareholders are rewarded for their investment in the business which allow it to grow. They take all the risk. Many workers are both workers and shareholders
 
Chunkylad said:
I am going to offer the option of ‘tax US corporations’ like Amazon.
Also shut down option of tax havens
Thirdly ask Dido Harding and Michelle Mone for the money back.

Just a start 👍
Click to expand...
They would just move their companies to countries offering better tax conditions. The tax incentives offered are offset against investing in additional plant and machinery which in turn allows it to expand and employ more people who in turn pay more tax
 
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Bob Hatton said:
They would just move their companies to countries offering better tax conditions.
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No chance. That’s a total misnomer.

Service companies like SS1 ran (HR recruitment or cyber like mine) -yes you can. There are ways though of making that challenging to do

How would Amazon service the UK from overseas? Cost of delivery would be horrific and make them horribly uncompetitive against local UK suppliers. Check out their corporation tax payments into UK treasury on profits. Almost non existent. They alone could provide the tax revenue to resolve many of these wage claims
 
Matesrates said:
I still think we’d be no better off under labour, yes they may well have spent more on public services, but the debt mountain would be massively worse and public servants (I don’t like that term, they’re doing a job, a service just like anyone else) and they wouldn’t be able to offer them more money
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It will take time to redress the underpaying of public servants. It will require growth an improved economy and a Government working for the people not just for the rich.

As Prescott said in 1997 it will take two terms to work through all of the problems the new Government will be left with.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
It will take time to redress the underpaying of public servants. It will require growth an improved economy and a Government working for the people not just for the rich.

As Prescott said in 1997 it will take two terms to work through all of the problems the new Government will be left with.
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So I will ask again, where is the money coming from?
 
Bob Hatton said:
So I will ask again, where is the money coming from?
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You will excuse me if I don't buy into your exasperation, as you hadn't directed your question at me. Anyway, I would have thought that my post was reasonably clear. First, try to rebuild confidence in Britain and keep the public finances taught. Then, when recovery builds, develop public services and allow some loose reins on wages. It will take time but it has to be worth trying. Better than 13 failed Tory years anyway.
 
Bob Hatton said:
How would you encourage growth? Would you settle the wage dusputes? Isn't it the rich which own the companies that you want to invest in to grow?
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How would I encourage growth? Tax breaks and subsidies but targeted at industries that will create jobs and protect the environment. As opposed to just giving public money to the already rich in the hope it’ll trickle down to those in need.

Would I settle the wage disputes? On the basis that we need an incentivised work force rather than one that’s at war with its employers, then yes I would (or rather I’d negotiate with goodwill rather than belligerence). Short term pain for longer term gain.

Yes it is the rich who own the companies we want to invest. But the rich aren’t a homogeneous mass. They aren’t all twats. Plus capitalists will always go where they think there’s a profit. The role of government is to ensure the potential for profit is in industries that will benefit the country as a whole. Not the super rich.

So now I’ve answered your questions answer two of mine.

Do you genuinely think austerity over the last 13 years has worked?

And if we stick with austerity don’t you think we’ll just be in a bigger hole than we are now in 10 years time? But still just chuntering the same mantra - there’s no alternative!!!

There is an alternative. It’s just that there’s no will to implement it. Just keep on with the same old BS even though it couldn’t be clearer that it doesn’t work.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
You will excuse me if I don't buy into your exasperation, as you hadn't directed your question at me. Anyway, I would have thought that my post was reasonably clear. First, try to rebuild confidence in Britain and keep the public finances taught. Then, when recovery builds, develop public services and allow some loose reins on wages. It will take time but it has to be worth trying. Better than 13 failed Tory years anyway.
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You don't say how you will rebuild confidence? You say keep public finance taught but have previously say pay more to workers? How will recovery build? On what criteria and how will your ideology influence that?
 
Bob Hatton said:
You don't say how you will rebuild confidence? You say keep public finance taught but have previously say pay more to workers? How will recovery build? On what criteria and how will your ideology influence that?
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Go on then. How would you rebuild confidence? The policy you’re defending (austerity) has got us into this mess. So how do you propose we grow the economy?
 
Chunkylad said:
I’m going for a hunger games style fight to the death Mates. You choose your weapon and survivors get to live until next year. Proper pay for view (or dodgy ip stream) for the masses.

Keeps us entertained and it’s all for the good of the planet 😁
Click to expand...
Ok, I’ve got an Abraham’s tank
 
Mexboroseasider said:
How would I encourage growth? Tax breaks and subsidies but targeted at industries that will create jobs and protect the environment. As opposed to just giving public money to the already rich in the hope it’ll trickle down to those in need.

Would I settle the wage disputes? On the basis that we need an incentivised work force rather than one that’s at war with its employers, then yes I would (or rather I’d negotiate with goodwill rather than belligerence). Short term pain for longer term gain.

Yes it is the rich who own the companies we want to invest. But the rich aren’t a homogeneous mass. They aren’t all twats. Plus capitalists will always go where they think there’s a profit. The role of government is to ensure the potential for profit is in industries that will benefit the country as a whole. Not the super rich.

So now I’ve answered your questions answer two of mine.

Do you genuinely think austerity over the last 13 years has worked?

And if we stick with austerity don’t you think we’ll just be in a bigger hole than we are now in 10 years time? But still just chuntering the same mantra - there’s no alternative!!!

There is an alternative. It’s just that there’s no will to implement it. Just keep on with the same old BS even though it couldn’t be clearer that it doesn’t work.
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You just believe in fantasy politics to underpin an outdated ideology. We have not been following an austere policy for many years. Funny how we are doing that badly we have the 6th biggest economy in the world
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Go on then. How would you rebuild confidence? The policy you’re defending (austerity) has got us into this mess. So how do you propose we grow the economy?
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We are not following an austere policy, we have spent billions over the last 3 years to keep the lights on
 
Bob Hatton said:
You don't say how you will rebuild confidence? You say keep public finance taught but have previously say pay more to workers? How will recovery build? On what criteria and how will your ideology influence that?
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I won't rebuild confidence, a new Labour Government will. They will do it by moving housing policy to focus on the building of social housing. They will encourage and fund the development of renewables. They will put a social context into the building of capital projects. They will dredge the swamp of tax avoiders, jobs for the boys and dodgy Contracts. There are important things to clean up and money will be redirected to legitimate social requirements. Now, what would you do to rebuild confidence?
 
Bob Hatton said:
You just believe in fantasy politics to underpin an outdated ideology. We have not been following an austere policy for many years. Funny how we are doing that badly we have the 6th biggest economy in the world
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Yeah. The country is in a great place.

Firefighters on strike now. Your policies are working really well.

So I’ll ask again. How do you propose we get out of this mess?
 
Matesrates said:
I still think we’d be no better off under labour, yes they may well have spent more on public services, but the debt mountain would be massively worse and public servants (I don’t like that term, they’re doing a job, a service just like anyone else) and they wouldn’t be able to offer them more money
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The debt mountain is the highest it's ever been and the tax burden is the highest in 40 years. This lot are pulling the wool over your eyes if you still think they're the party of low taxation, law and order or any other false claim.

And public servants pay taxes too.

The 'privatised' railways paid more in dividends to their overseas shareholders (Germany, France and Italy) than what the rail unions are asking for.

It would appear I've paid more tax than half the Cabinet and their spouses.
 
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