Why are we accepting this?

[Bob Hatton]

Your policies aren’t working.

What’s your answer?

Mex they are not my policies, I think the government are an embarrassing shambles who have made a complete mess of things. I don't however think labour have any better policies. I do despair and I don't know what the answer is but somehow we all have to come together and build a future. We can't just spend more, we don't have it to spend. To provide all of the services we all want would take eye watering amounts of money that most tax payers can't afford. Its a complete shit show

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life

Tax the mega rich ad businesses properly. Shell has paid no UK tax in 5 years despite profits north of £150 Billion. Tax the American giants like Amazon on the profit in this country, not offshore it to Ireland. Abolish Non Dom, if you live here, you are taxed here. Abolish offshore tax free trusts, JRM is worth hundreds of millions and pays tax on his salary as an MP! If Utilities give the money set aside for capital projects to their shareholders, tax them the same amount.

There is plenty of money, it is just it is being given abroad and hoarded.

 

[Shandypants]

Mex they are not my policies, I think the government are an embarrassing shambles who have made a complete mess of things. I don't however think labour have any better policies. I do despair and I don't know what the answer is but somehow we all have to come together and build a future. We can't just spend more, we don't have it to spend. To provide all of the services we all want would take eye watering amounts of money that most tax payers can't afford. Its a complete shit show

I agree with most of that. I don't agree with passively saying Labour don't have the answer, that isn't the question. I don't think Labour have the answer either but as a nation do we just accept this? As voters and taxpayers we need to grow a pair, it makes me think that the tories anti protest legislation is there to protect themselves, we really should be marching on downing st in millions kicking off with this shower of corrupt crooks.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Mex they are not my policies, I think the government are an embarrassing shambles who have made a complete mess of things. I don't however think labour have any better policies. I do despair and I don't know what the answer is but somehow we all have to come together and build a future. We can't just spend more, we don't have it to spend. To provide all of the services we all want would take eye watering amounts of money that most tax payers can't afford. Its a complete shit show

Well at least you’ve acknowledged that you don’t have an answer. Which is an acknowledgment that the current policies aren’t the answer. As you say “a complete shit show”.

So surely we must try something else?

I’ve suggested alternatives that don’t involve taxing Mr Average Rich Person more; except in the sense that if there’s growth and they have more income/assets they’ll pay more.

But growth is the answer. The question is how do we achieve growth?

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

6th biggest economy and “can’t afford” to pay nurses and teachers in line with inflation.

What a load of bollocks.

 

[Bob Hatton]

I agree with most of that. I don't agree with passively saying Labour don't have the answer, that isn't the question. I don't think Labour have the answer either but as a nation do we just accept this? As voters and taxpayers we need to grow a pair, it makes me think that the tories anti protest legislation is there to protect themselves, we really should be marching on downing st in millions kicking off with this shower of corrupt crooks.

I have always thought that proportional representation and a coalition government is the way we should as a democracy govern but as we have seen in Ireland that can be a big problem. We need the best people to come together and follow non political policy that benefits us all collectively as a country. I firmly believe the current raft of strikes is a politically orchestrated move to undermine the government. Every body would love an inflation busting pay rise but the country can't afford it.

 

[spudgun]

I agree with most of that. Where I disagree with you is that I do in fact agree (in a very small way) with the statement “maybe Truss and Kwarteng were right”.

IMO they were partially right and what they got right was their view that austerity doesn’t work. That’s unarguable when you look at the Cameron/Osborne years. What the economy desperately needs, and hasn’t had for quite a long time, is growth.

Where I fundamentally disagree with Truss/Kwarteng (and agree with you) is the way in which you achieve growth. It’s not via hand outs to the rich and hoping for trickle down economics. That’s BS. Always had been. Always will be. It’s about encouraging and incentivising investment in new industries focused in particular on the green sector. As opposed to focusing financial services, bankers and money laundering and retaining our position as the leader in the laundering of dirty money.

There’s a better way to bring this country back. But the current incumbents aren’t the solution.

Yep, agree with all that, mex.

To be clear, I was criticising the way Truss and Kwarteng went about their warmed-up Reaganite neoliberal fantasy in which we could create prosperity and a dynamic society by creating a Singapore-on-Sea by reducing taxes for the wealthy in a trickle down, supply side, deregulation economy, fever dream.

Truss`s wonky ideology is well known to be based on 1980`s Reaganomics, in which tax and capital gain cuts eventually lead to a 15% rise in public debt against GDP in less than a decade. She has been ridiculed by her favourite economic historian author Rick Perlstein who documented the Reagan years and he stated that her project was doomed from the very start. Not least because she didn`t grasp the essential detail that the USA had the advantage of controlling the world`s reserve currency, and was the strongest world economy at the time. And it still didn`t work in a sustainable way.

To me the only thing Truss got right was to identify that growth had to be stimulated. But any fule kno that.

There was a good podcast on it on the BBC a month or two ago....

 

[Chunkylad]

Recently they changed stamp duty to make it now a significant % on purchases over £1.5m (12%) plus an overseas surcharge on that.

What is interesting is why the Tories didn’t do this a decade ago when massive amounts of Russian and Middle East money was flooding in and buying up swathes of high value property in London? The revenue would have been massive on the run from 2012 upto 2022.

It’s billions and billions of £ tax money on people that don’t pay tax normally in this country and have vehicles to avoid it on other income. However you can’t get around stamp duty. Cameron knew this, May knew this, Boris certainly knew this and Rishi frankly enjoyed not paying this.

So now we have the largest tax burden in living memory on small and middle sized business owners. Largest tax burden in living memory on middle and working class workers. All this tax burden and yet the worst services we have had in decades.

 

[Bob Hatton]

6th biggest economy and “can’t afford” to pay nurses and teachers in line with inflation.

What a load of bollocks.

When it gets to the end of the month and your skint, do you still go out for the night or stop in and watch telly?

 

[Bob Hatton]

Well at least you’ve acknowledged that you don’t have an answer. Which is an acknowledgment that the current policies aren’t the answer. As you say “a complete shit show”.

So surely we must try something else?

I’ve suggested alternatives that don’t involve taxing Mr Average Rich Person more; except in the sense that if there’s growth and they have more income/assets they’ll pay more.

But growth is the answer. The question is how do we achieve growth?

We live in a capitalist economy and business needs to be encouraged to invest to expand and grow. To do this they need low taxes and sustainable wages in order to return a profit on operating costs and overheads. With the massive increase in utilities and running costs combined with no or low growth due to covid and furlough the last thing they need is a massive increase in labour costs. People need to be realistic and look to the long term growth not short term needs. By pushing up labour costs this feeds inflation and in turn needs continuing bigger pay rises.

 

[bill40]

Youv'e never had it so good people.

Technically that's correct except for the misplaced apostrophe.

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

When it gets to the end of the month and your skint, do you still go out for the night or stop in and watch telly?

Are you implying that the country with the 6th largest economy is skint?

That would be horrendous mismanagement of our finances.

 

[spudgun]

So now we have the largest tax burden in living memory on small and middle sized business owners. Largest tax burden in living memory on middle and working class workers. All this tax burden and yet the worst services we have had in decades.

Yep. As a small/medium business owner myself, I can definitely concur with that!

And the social contract between the government and the population is virtually non existent with regard to using taxes to upgrade public services.

I rarely hear a politician venture beyond opining about the "need for growth". The missing next line should always be , "....so we can improve public services".

Growth isn`t an end in itself....

 

[hampshire_exile]

I have always thought that proportional representation and a coalition government is the way we should as a democracy govern but as we have seen in Ireland that can be a big problem. We need the best people to come together and follow non political policy that benefits us all collectively as a country. I firmly believe the current raft of strikes is a politically orchestrated move to undermine the government. Every body would love an inflation busting pay rise but the country can't afford it.

Are you saying that proportional representation and a coalition government has been a big problem in Ireland?
It’s led to relatively stable Government and significant economic growth, though not without some major downsides in terms of the inability of young people to buy or rent somewhere to live. And I am not a fan of its low corporate tax rates which are a factor in that. That’s the Republic of Ireland, to spell it out.

Are you sure you don’t mean Northern Ireland? In which case I can’t think of a worse place to base a theory that proportional representation can cause problems. Somewhere where everyone says they want peace, but only 20 per cent are willing to vote for parties other than those that hold entrenched views one way or the other.

I wouldn’t use Northern Ireland as an example of anything to do with politics - it’s just a little world of its own.

 

[Bob Hatton]

Are you saying that proportional representation and a coalition government has been a big problem in Ireland?
It’s led to relatively stable Government and significant economic growth, though not without some major downsides in terms of the inability of young people to buy or rent somewhere to live. And I am not a fan of its low corporate tax rates which are a factor in that. That’s the Republic of Ireland, to spell it out.

Are you sure you don’t mean Northern Ireland? In which case I can’t think of a worse place to base a theory that proportional representation can cause problems. Somewhere where everyone says they want peace, but only 20 per cent are willing to vote for parties other than those that hold entrenched views one way or the other.

I wouldn’t use Northern Ireland as an example of anything to do with politics - it’s just a little world of its own.

Sorry yes did mean NI and agree it's a unique example due to the historic problems.

 

[Bob Hatton]

Are you implying that the country with the 6th largest economy is skint?

That would be horrendous mismanagement of our finances.

All of the major economies are in a similar mess due to the weird unprecedented set of issues we have had to deal with. We have done no better or no worse than most others.

 

[Lytham_fy8]

How are you going to kill me? Lethal injection? Firing squad? Let’s face it Wetherspoons in Cleveleys would find their turnover hit, an M block at Bloomfield Road would be lost, that’s just for starters.

The old Bill Hicks idea where you go out in a blaze of glory on a film instead of using stunt men.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Mex they are not my policies, I think the government are an embarrassing shambles who have made a complete mess of things. I don't however think labour have any better policies. I do despair and I don't know what the answer is but somehow we all have to come together and build a future. We can't just spend more, we don't have it to spend. To provide all of the services we all want would take eye watering amounts of money that most tax payers can't afford. Its a complete shit show

Do me a favour - no, really, I mean it. Listen to Labour talking about their policies. Open yourself up to their ideas. Then, if you're still not convinced, ask yourself why, and then ask yourself what would be better and who is offering it.

 

[Matesrates]

The old Bill Hicks idea where you go out in a blaze of glory on a film instead of using stunt men.

Sounds good, the only question is, there’s millions of us redundant oldies, can they provide enough stunts.

 

[Bob Hatton]

Do me a favour - no, really, I mean it. Listen to Labour talking about their policies. Open yourself up to their ideas. Then, if you're still not convinced, ask yourself why, and then ask yourself what would be better and who is offering it.

It's like sacking Appleton and getting Colin Hendry back. We need a big Mick

 

[1966_and_all_that]

It's like sacking Appleton and getting Colin Hendry back. We need a big Mick

Sorry but that's not good enough. Look at Labour's policies and seriously consider them. If you're not prepared to do it then your bleating amounts to nought.

 

[bill40]

We live in a capitalist economy and business needs to be encouraged to invest to expand and grow. To do this they need low taxes and sustainable wages in order to return a profit on operating costs and overheads. With the massive increase in utilities and running costs combined with no or low growth due to covid and furlough the last thing they need is a massive increase in labour costs. People need to be realistic and look to the long term growth not short term needs. By pushing up labour costs this feeds inflation and in turn needs continuing bigger pay rises.

Labour costs do not feed inflation as a matter of fact they help tame it. Bigger wages = more profits for businesses competing for the increased spending power. The increases in utilities are purely down to market failure. All curbing wages does is make the rich richer, wages should rise with productivity.

 

[Bob Hatton]

Labour costs do not feed inflation as a matter of fact they help tame it. Bigger wages = more profits for businesses competing for the increased spending power. The increases in utilities are purely down to market failure. All curbing wages does is make the rich richer, wages should rise with productivity.

That's so wrong it's actually funny

 

[1966_and_all_that]

That's so wrong it's actually funny

Explain why.

 

[bill40]

That's so wrong it's actually funny

You have your head stuck in 1970's gold standard rules which don't apply anymore. The ideal for businesses is rich customers and poor workers. I take it you can spot the contradiction there? You are so wrong it isn't almost funny it's positively comical.

 

[Seaside Aggro]

It's the only policy you have, spend other people's money, never your own

Why not? All this talk of ‘money needs to be paid back’ and ‘how are business supposed to survive’ is bollocks. This government always finds whatever money it wants for its own policies and initiatives. It’s shocking that they’ve shifted the moral obligation for them being crooks into people, selling this message that it’s our responsibility. It’s not. Consider how much was spunked to their mates during covid, how much has gone on HS2 etc. All the while councils are spending millions bidding for small pots of money to fill gaps.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

We live in a capitalist economy and business needs to be encouraged to invest to expand and grow. To do this they need low taxes and sustainable wages in order to return a profit on operating costs and overheads. With the massive increase in utilities and running costs combined with no or low growth due to covid and furlough the last thing they need is a massive increase in labour costs. People need to be realistic and look to the long term growth not short term needs. By pushing up labour costs this feeds inflation and in turn needs continuing bigger pay rises.

Having run businesses for a few decades I understand that revenue needs to exceed costs and the surplus is profit.

Low taxes are a bonus but not the driver.

Take entrepreneur’s relief for instance. I’ve never known an entrepreneur say “yep; the only reason I started a business was because of ER.” Usually it’s just the icing on the cake.

Similarly EIS and SEIS. Never known an investor say “I’m only investing in this business because of the tax breaks”.

Usually they say “I’d have done it anyway. But thanks for the tax bonus”.

 

[TheRealKingKenny]

All of the major economies are in a similar mess due to the weird unprecedented set of issues we have had to deal with. We have done no better or no worse than most others.

Some people have done very well out of those unprecedented events, including people linked to the current government.

Money doesn’t just disappear, it’s still out there somewhere, if the government have spent it all they need to get some back. They can start by paying enough tax themselves, then making sure their mates are paying enough tax, then windfall tax the people who have made fortunes off the back of the events you mention.

Hardly wild, revolutionary ideas.

 

[BFC_53]

One of the most beneficial things to economic growth is a healthy workforce, where you can get your illnesses and ailments diagnosed and treated quickly. So the constant reactive nature of our policies towards healthcare in this country make absolutely no sense. We've had an annual NHS crisis in this country for as long as I can remember.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

6th biggest economy and “can’t afford” to pay nurses and teachers in line with inflation.

What a load of bollocks.

its the same in almost every western economy. thats not an excuse its simply a fact and a predictable outcome of the economic policies that have been pursued globally.

 

[td53]

What I'd really like to know is... After 43 years of broadly thatcherite, neo thatcherite and austerity politics based around how the public services will be much better value if we privatises them - why is this palpably not the case and why is tax not significantly lower than it was at the beginning of this social experiment?

We pay a lot of tax still and we get less and less each year it seems. I literally can't make a doctors appointment, the bus to work costs more than driving my car does, trains are ** expensive if you don't book 3 weeks ahead, my mate waited 18 hours in a+e with a baby the other day, my kid's school have had to cut loads of activity sessions cos they can't afford to run them, the cost of food and energy is through the roof and so on and so forth.

We've got more millionaires though, so that's grand. It's all going to trickle down.

Except it isn't and it's bullshit.

Tinpot governments all in thrall to an orthodoxy that doesn't even believe its own rhetoric.

Fuck them.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

We live in a capitalist economy and business needs to be encouraged to invest to expand and grow. To do this they need low taxes and sustainable wages in order to return a profit on operating costs and overheads. With the massive increase in utilities and running costs combined with no or low growth due to covid and furlough the last thing they need is a massive increase in labour costs. People need to be realistic and look to the long term growth not short term needs. By pushing up labour costs this feeds inflation and in turn needs continuing bigger pay rises.

The UK has never been anything other than a capitalist economy with massive preference going to capital rather than labour, with national power through growth and expansion (or expansion and growth whichever way you want to look at it, being the goals, no mor ethan 5-10% of the population benefit, or are even expected to benefit from that economic success and power.

In the post WW2 period there was an emphasis on full employment and social uplift as an economic goal, but the UK was still a capitalist economy with a bias towards capital and capitalists. Rising inflation put the full employment and social lifting experiment out to pasture. One problem was that economic models designed for the goals of growth and expansion (for the benefit of a very small minority) were still being used for a system trying to deliver full employment and social lifting to a majority, as soon as the first signs of trouble appeared (rising inflation) that model was thrown away in favour of an even more capital biased freemarket system, which has as its base, extreme consumerism allied to cheap debt. We are back to a model where economic policy favours and is designed to heavily favour a very small percentage of the population.

Wages over the last 25 years have stagnated whilst the cost of living has continually gone up. Energy prices have been an issue for ten years or more. The cost of an average home is now 11 times the average salary, in 1965 it was a little over three times. consider this, Mortgages at more than 4 times annual salary were 25 years ago considered very high risk, i have yet to see anything that makes that risk calculation any less today, it should actually be higher because so few people have the kind of job security that could realistically mitigate the risk. Senior management pay in 1965 was about 15 times the amount of the average wage. It is now around close to 400 times the average wage.

The extreme consumerism that drives our current cpaitalist economy is falling apart because low wages are taking people out of the consumptive cycle, apart from needs based consumption. Its been calculated that every year just under 1% of the working population is taken out of the non-needs based consumptive cycle.

Growth is not a useful goal and it might be fundamentally destructive, stability and full economic participation would be significantly better goals.

In order for the economy to be stable, living costs should not be more than 60-70% of take home pay leaving 30-40% as disposable income of which around a quarter to a third should be being saved.

We keep pursuing growth for a whole host of reasons, mostly because it benefits the small percentage of the population that make policy. We kept being fed information that low inflation, low interest rates, high consumption, high debt, service and non productive work bias are the way that everyone benefits and, we accept that orthodoxy -but it is wrong.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

What I'd really like to know is... After 43 years of broadly thatcherite, neo thatcherite and austerity politics based around how the public services will be much better value if we privatises them - why is this palpably not the case and why is tax not significantly lower than it was at the beginning of this social experiment?

We pay a lot of tax still and we get less and less each year it seems. I literally can't make a doctors appointment, the bus to work costs more than driving my car does, trains are ** expensive if you don't book 3 weeks ahead, my mate waited 18 hours in a+e with a baby the other day, my kid's school have had to cut loads of activity sessions cos they can't afford to run them, the cost of food and energy is through the roof and so on and so forth.

We've got more millionaires though, so that's grand. It's all going to trickle down.

Except it isn't and it's bullshit.

Tinpot governments all in thrall to an orthodoxy that doesn't even believe its own rhetoric.

Fuck them.

i know you are probably being rhetorical when you say you want to know . . . . . . but here goes

If you privatise - within a short space of time becuase of market pressures there is the need to profitise, a 4 or 6% profit margin for a privatised utility is not enough to keep the share price up, and keeping the share price up is the all importatant quest to keep the investment institutions happy. So dividends and profits have to be higher, public utilities dont have that many ways to increase profit, and they are largely managed by self important morons, so cost cutting and reducing investment is that easiest way. off loading key infrastructure to release money for dividends is another factor.

fuck them cos they are ** us

 

[Lytham_fy8]

It's the only policy you have, spend other people's money, never your own

We all spend other people's money, that's capitalism, your money used to be someone else's.

 

[Shandypants]

The UK has never been anything other than a capitalist economy with massive preference going to capital rather than labour, with national power through growth and expansion (or expansion and growth whichever way you want to look at it, being the goals, no mor ethan 5-10% of the population benefit, or are even expected to benefit from that economic success and power.

In the post WW2 period there was an emphasis on full employment and social uplift as an economic goal, but the UK was still a capitalist economy with a bias towards capital and capitalists. Rising inflation put the full employment and social lifting experiment out to pasture. One problem was that economic models designed for the goals of growth and expansion (for the benefit of a very small minority) were still being used for a system trying to deliver full employment and social lifting to a majority, as soon as the first signs of trouble appeared (rising inflation) that model was thrown away in favour of an even more capital biased freemarket system, which has as its base, extreme consumerism allied to cheap debt. We are back to a model where economic policy favours and is designed to heavily favour a very small percentage of the population.

Wages over the last 25 years have stagnated whilst the cost of living has continually gone up. Energy prices have been an issue for ten years or more. The cost of an average home is now 11 times the average salary, in 1965 it was a little over three times. consider this, Mortgages at more than 4 times annual salary were 25 years ago considered very high risk, i have yet to see anything that makes that risk calculation any less today, it should actually be higher because so few people have the kind of job security that could realistically mitigate the risk. Senior management pay in 1965 was about 15 times the amount of the average wage. It is now around close to 400 times the average wage.

The extreme consumerism that drives our current cpaitalist economy is falling apart because low wages are taking people out of the consumptive cycle, apart from needs based consumption. Its been calculated that every year just under 1% of the working population is taken out of the non-needs based consumptive cycle.

Growth is not a useful goal and it might be fundamentally destructive, stability and full economic participation would be significantly better goals.

In order for the economy to be stable, living costs should not be more than 60-70% of take home pay leaving 30-40% as disposable income of which around a quarter to a third should be being saved.

We keep pursuing growth for a whole host of reasons, mostly because it benefits the small percentage of the population that make policy. We kept being fed information that low inflation, low interest rates, high consumption, high debt, service and non productive work bias are the way that everyone benefits and, we accept that orthodoxy -but it is wrong.

I'd add that after the horror of the world wars, government's saw the need to improve the life of the population and sought to do so whether it be a massive programme of building homes by the state or free health care. The state hasn't built homes for decades and we are seeing how that's created huge problems (in 1970 half of all homes built were council houses) and I see the signs the NHS isn't going to continue on the model it has.
Furthermore we had industry that whole towns worked in whether it be mining, steel, mills and the unlons thrived to the betterment of the workforce.I keep harping on about North sea oil and gas windfall but in my opinion that was misused to fund and prop up a political ideology of low taxation. Low taxation should be an option when conditions are right and not a political mantra.
We have let foreign companies run our trains, water industry and other important infrastructure, for me thats an unfortunate and unacceptable form of extreme capitalism, these are of national interest and should have been kept by the state, again the sell offs prop up lower tax for a short term. The country faces huge challenges, its one hell of a mess. I'm not optimistic that our political parties can deal with them, not when the reality of brexit is staring them in the face and no one is willing to be honest. Starmer is a pathetic example on that front and Nandy panders to her Wigan constituents who overwhelmingly voted for it. Spineless.

 

[EPM46]

I don’t think we’d be in any better position whatever party was in government, the 2008 crash started the problem and then the pandemic and Ukraine war have had a mad effect.

In my opinion the problem with our economy started a long time before 2008. In fact, our decline started with Thatcherism. Privatise everything in sight. Win elections by promising that the Tory Party believed in low taxation, and reducing the basic rate of income tax accordingly. There was therefore less money for public services which have continually declined, until the present time when they are in crisis. All governments since the wicked witch was ousted have therefore been hamstrung by low rates of income tax, unable to go into election campaigns declaring that the tax will have to go up. It’s been widely reported that opinion polls have consistently shown that the general public would be in favour of paying a fair level of income tax if our public services improved.
Now we have the worst of both worlds, public services in crisis and the highest levels of taxation in a generation!

 

[Wizaard]

I have always thought that proportional representation and a coalition government is the way we should as a democracy govern but as we have seen in Ireland that can be a big problem. We need the best people to come together and follow non political policy that benefits us all collectively as a country. I firmly believe the current raft of strikes is a politically orchestrated move to undermine the government. Every body would love an inflation busting pay rise but the country can't afford it.

No one is getting an 'inflation busting payrise' (c) Tory Press, 2% doesn't bust anything apart from savings.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

I'd add that after the horror of the world wars, government's saw the need to improve the life of the population and sought to do so whether it be a massive programme of building homes by the state or free health care. The state hasn't built homes for decades and we are seeing how that's created huge problems (in 1970 half of all homes built were council houses) and I see the signs the NHS isn't going to continue on the model it has.
Furthermore we had industry that whole towns worked in whether it be mining, steel, mills and the unlons thrived to the betterment of the workforce.I keep harping on about North sea oil and gas windfall but in my opinion that was misused to fund and prop up a political ideology of low taxation. Low taxation should be an option when conditions are right and not a political mantra.
We have let foreign companies run our trains, water industry and other important infrastructure, for me thats an unfortunate and unacceptable form of extreme capitalism, these are of national interest and should have been kept by the state, again the sell offs prop up lower tax for a short term. The country faces huge challenges, its one hell of a mess. I'm not optimistic that our political parties can deal with them, not when the reality of brexit is staring them in the face and no one is willing to be honest. Starmer is a pathetic example on that front and Nandy panders to her Wigan constituents who overwhelmingly voted for it. Spineless.

That was going well until the penultimate sentence. Starmer has an election to win in a country where the Tories have become the easy to go to option for those who pay little or no attention to politics. At this stage he cannot afford to go heavy on Brexit criticism. That would be received as a telling-off for large swathes of the people whose votes he needs. There are more important battles to be fought at the moment. He can't simply rely on the Tories committing suicide, no matter how good a job they seem to be making of it. If he can regain even eight or nine seats in Scotland, he could be on course for an overall majority.

 

[Chunkylad]

Having run businesses for a few decades I understand that revenue needs to exceed costs and the surplus is profit.

Low taxes are a bonus but not the driver.

Take entrepreneur’s relief for instance. I’ve never known an entrepreneur say “yep; the only reason I started a business was because of ER.” Usually it’s just the icing on the cake.

Similarly EIS and SEIS. Never known an investor say “I’m only investing in this business because of the tax breaks”.

Usually they say “I’d have done it anyway. But thanks for the tax bonus”.

Exactly this.
When I studied my Economics degree supply side economics (Reagan, Truss ) was already broken as a model.

We’ve just had 12 solid years of supply side stimulation via QE and at no stage in that 12 years could you say that the economy boomed and anyone but the super wealthy benefitted. Services collapsed and instead of Keynes style investment in infrastructure we gave the stimulus cash to the city to invest. The city made a fortune from it but little was invested in UK production or jobs.

Keynes economics is far from perfect but it still is the best model for getting out of poor cycles. US and Germany both went full Keynesian in the last decade. China has done that now for many.

 

[Camberwell1]

Mex they are not my policies, I think the government are an embarrassing shambles who have made a complete mess of things. I don't however think labour have any better policies. I do despair and I don't know what the answer is but somehow we all have to come together and build a future. We can't just spend more, we don't have it to spend. To provide all of the services we all want would take eye watering amounts of money that most tax payers can't afford. Its a complete shit show

Bob H - The Gpovernment are
1. Liars
2. Tax dodgers
3. Corrupt
4. NOTHING is there fault
5. Laughing at us all

Most should have been disposed of in the Tower already - I'll let someone else draw up the list of traitor's row

 

[Camberwell1]

I agree with most of that. I don't agree with passively saying Labour don't have the answer, that isn't the question. I don't think Labour have the answer either but as a nation do we just accept this? As voters and taxpayers we need to grow a pair, it makes me think that the tories anti protest legislation is there to protect themselves, we really should be marching on downing st in millions kicking off with this shower of corrupt crooks.

Loud applause from this part of the Capital - WELL SAID

 

[Camberwell1]

Exactly this.
When I studied my Economics degree supply side economics (Reagan, Truss ) was already broken as a model.

We’ve just had 12 solid years of supply side stimulation via QE and at no stage in that 12 years could you say that the economy boomed and anyone but the super wealthy benefitted. Services collapsed and instead of Keynes style investment in infrastructure we gave the stimulus cash to the city to invest. The city made a fortune from it but little was invested in UK production or jobs.

Keynes economics is far from perfect but it still is the best model for getting out of poor cycles. US and Germany both went full Keynesian in the last decade. China has done that now for many.

Before we study Economics let's just focus on the Lying Elephant in the room please

 

[Camberwell1]

No one is getting an 'inflation busting payrise' (c) Tory Press, 2% doesn't bust anything apart from savings.

and a repossession eventually (sooner rather than later)

 

[Costero Poderoso]

Exactly this.
When I studied my Economics degree supply side economics (Reagan, Truss ) was already broken as a model.

We’ve just had 12 solid years of supply side stimulation via QE and at no stage in that 12 years could you say that the economy boomed and anyone but the super wealthy benefitted. Services collapsed and instead of Keynes style investment in infrastructure we gave the stimulus cash to the city to invest. The city made a fortune from it but little was invested in UK production or jobs.

Keynes economics is far from perfect but it still is the best model for getting out of poor cycles. US and Germany both went full Keynesian in the last decade. China has done that now for many.

Supply side economics was never not broken, it was a con, and a means of moving wealth that had started to be accumulated amongst working people, back to its so called rightful place.

QE wasnt supply side economics in play - it was actually a form of socialist intervention but only applied to major corporations and the capital classes.

I dont see how either germany or definitely the US have gone full keynesian, they just havent. The US economy is as fucked as the UK's, it might actually be worse, but they are protected to some extent by the dollar being the world's reserve currency. Germany might be fucked as it is effectively the backstop for the euro zone, and its financial system cannot cope with that.

Like you say Keynes is far from perfect, although it might be less bad, but the problem goes beyond that. Keynes developed his ideas way before the era of mass consumerism, and Keynesian tools are not adequate to fix the problems associated with a consumption based economy. I dont think any economic models have the capacity to fix the myriad of problems that currently exist.

If we are going to have a consumerist based economy (and i think there is an argument to suggest that consumerism is a form of economic power for the masses) there has to be mass participation, or in reality virtually full participation. Constantly reducing the tax burden and regulations for companies and the capital class, whilst increasing the tax burden and lowering wages for working people erodes and eventually ends consumerism. If companies dont have customers they dont have a business, Henry ford understood this a hundred years ago. What most economists dont seem to see is that the current consumerist system biased to capital is actually eating itself.

 

[Seasider1887]

Serious question and I am not pushing any agenda but where is the money coming from to settle all the wage demands at 15 to 20%, solve all the funding requests from the NHS, to the Armed Services to the social services. To repay the billions paid to support workers during covid and during the energy crisis? Is everyone happy to pay a lot more tax. I would love a better car and a nicer house but I have a budget and have to live within in. The country is no different and yet the same people screaming to spend more are almost certainly the same people who don't expect to pay more. Sorry there is no magic money tree but there is a world recession on the back of a world pandemic and throw in the biggest war since WW2. Its shit but that's life

Most sensible people think this way it’s just this board has an unusually high amount of loony lefties that whine a about problems but don’t offer any solutions. Such as why we waste £6.8 million per day housing economic migrants and criminals whilst out war veterans and mentally sick down and outs sleep on the streets. Why C Cabs in Blackpool have a contract to drive them to the dentist or Doctors whenever they need.

 

[glasshalffull]

Most sensible people think this way it’s just this board has an unusually high amount of loony lefties that whine a about problems but don’t offer any solutions. Such as why we waste £6.8 million per day housing economic migrants and criminals whilst out war veterans and mentally sick down and outs sleep on the streets. Why C Cabs in Blackpool have a contract to drive them to the dentist or Doctors whenever they need.

Exactly, except they are mainly asylum seekers and refugees. Get their cases assessed quickly (we know that a large majority will be eligible to stay, and send the rest back).
Let them get on with their lives and let them contribute to our country.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Supply side economics was never not broken, it was a con, and a means of moving wealth that had started to be accumulated amongst working people, back to its so called rightful place.

QE wasnt supply side economics in play - it was actually a form of socialist intervention but only applied to major corporations and the capital classes.

I dont see how either germany or definitely the US have gone full keynesian, they just havent. The US economy is as fucked as the UK's, it might actually be worse, but they are protected to some extent by the dollar being the world's reserve currency. Germany might be fucked as it is effectively the backstop for the euro zone, and its financial system cannot cope with that.

Like you say Keynes is far from perfect, although it might be less bad, but the problem goes beyond that. Keynes developed his ideas way before the era of mass consumerism, and Keynesian tools are not adequate to fix the problems associated with a consumption based economy. I dont think any economic models have the capacity to fix the myriad of problems that currently exist.

If we are going to have a consumerist based economy (and i think there is an argument to suggest that consumerism is a form of economic power for the masses) there has to be mass participation, or in reality virtually full participation. Constantly reducing the tax burden and regulations for companies and the capital class, whilst increasing the tax burden and lowering wages for working people erodes and eventually ends consumerism. If companies dont have customers they dont have a business, Henry ford understood this a hundred years ago. What most economists dont seem to see is that the current consumerist system biased to capital is actually eating itself.

QE wasnt supply side economics in play - it was actually a form of socialist intervention but only applied to major corporations and the capital classes.

As a short term measure to shore up the banks it was essential.

 

[Costero Poderoso]

QE wasnt supply side economics in play - it was actually a form of socialist intervention but only applied to major corporations and the capital classes.

As a short term measure to shore up the banks it was essential.

firstly why did we need to shore up the banks?

Backstopping the financial system i'd agree with, but all that happens(ed) by bailing out the banks is that they will now operate in a worse manner knowing that the government through the taxpayer will be the means of protecting whatever activity they deem to undertake in pursuit of profit.

Also the banks should have been backstopped by the various financial regulatory systems in place and the central banks, but the regulatory processes were inadequate and the basic models of underwriting had been so massively distorted to be of no use whatsoever. The problem is they are still the same. The UK's top five banks have a asset footprint about 4 times the size of the UK economy. According to some economic research a drop of 3% in the markets would render the UK bamking system insolvent, it is quite possible that the UK banking system is already operating with an insolvent model. The euro zone is in an even worse state, the major banks of the euro zone have an asset footprint of about 14 times the German economy, and the euro still doesnt have a properly functioning central bank.

There were dozens of ways that the financial system could have been supported, shoring up the banks was probably the worst way to go about it.

 

[glasshalffull]

Because it is Catch 22. There is virtually no other way of them getting here.
The majority will prove to be eligible to stay when processed.
So do it faster and cut down on hotel bills and speed up tax receipts. Send the Albanians etc back.

Why would an asylum seeker pay thousands of pounds to get in a boat risking their lives to leave a perfectly peaceful country. They are economic migrants. They post TikTok videos filmed on their latest I phones. They wear designer clothing and smoke proper cigarettes. Albania is not even at war and approximately 80% come from there. They control a lot of the drugs and prostitution which is a fact. I will never understand you looney lefties. Perhaps you could give a few a room in your house, and pocket money and 3 meals a day for free? Pay their dental bills, and drive them to a NHS overloaded doctor!

 

[Seasider1887]

Because it is Catch 22. There is virtually no other way of them getting here.
The majority will prove to be eligible to stay when processed.
So do it faster and cut down on hotel bills and speed up tax receipts. Send the Albanians etc back.

But France is a safe country. They are meant to remain in the first safe country. The NHS is already overloaded not to mention the housing shortages. We are full now! Of course it’s an attractive place to live but we can’t let anyone in.

Remainder of post removed.