Cheesyleps
Well-known member
Yes.
Do you agree that Britain, The USA, Australia etc. should have faced the same global ostracisation for the invasion of Iraq that Russia is now facing for their invasion of Ukraine?
Why Russia is Invading Ukraine
- Thread starter Olliesoffhistrolley
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Do you agree that Britain, The USA, Australia etc. should have faced the same global ostracisation for the invasion of Iraq that Russia is now facing for their invasion of Ukraine?
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
Unfortunately, I believe you are right Whits, which was my point about the Russians being relatively restrained so far, and fearing the actions of Zelenskyy et al. Providing the civilian populace with the means of armed resistance will hugely increase the level of human suffering experienced in that country.
The cynic in me believes he does so knowingly, in order to force the hand of NATO. Western Public opinion will make it very difficult for NATO countries to stand by and do nothing if Kiev starts to resemble Grozny.
Putin's position will not allow him to accept any kind of defeat, and the gloves will truly come off. Air-power has been used very sparingly so far, primarily limited to attack helicopters. If he starts sending in the Tu-95s, Kiev will become hell on earth.
Seasider3610
Well-known member
Whits whatever the Russians do they won’t be able to control the whole country of 44 million with the landmass of the largest European country.
If they try they won’t have any forces left to invade Estonia and Latvia will they
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
It can be done if they are willing to accept loss of life on a scale not seen since WWII.
The question is are they?
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
The Russians have dealt with this before, and their actions made the US Marines in Fallujah look like kittens.Chessy read this
Ukraine invasion: Urban war expert’s advice on how Ukrainian civilians can defend themselves against Russian forces
Retired Major John Spencer tells Ukrainians to "keep resisting" and "turn Kyiv into a fortress" amid an intensifying battle for the capital.news.sky.com
The Russians will not be able to hold any of the cities without much more loss of their soldiers and more loss of their tanks, APC’s and other vehicles…..
It can’t be done
Grozny looked like this in 1994 after the Chechens fought a guerilla war with Russia. They are now providing 10,000 troops to this invasion.
This is precisely what I am praying doesnt happen.
Whitstabletangerine
Well-known member
Well the Germans managed to control for some years many more when they took over the Channel islands, half of France, Belgium, Holland Denmark, Norway, Yogoslavia, Alabania and Greece, not sure but Romania and Bulgaria also. Not forgetting Poland 39 before they pushed on in 41 and attempted the Russian walk of death.
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
Can I suggest having a peruse of this flowchart below. Invasion of Estonia or Latvia is an entirely different ball-game.Whits whatever the Russians do they won’t be able to control the whole country of 44 million with the landmass of the largest European country.
If they try they won’t have any forces left to invade Estonia and Latvia will they
Attachments
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
Language interesting on that flow chart
"LOADS OF RUSSIANS NEEDLESSLY DIE"
"Russia destroys America with first nuclear attack"
Almost like it has bias and very little substance.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
The whole chart is a load of bollocks in any case… It’s like something drawn up by a kid at play school
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
It is from a 2015 Vox.com piece about the spectre of nuclear conflict. Vox is not pro-russian at all.
How World War III became possible
A nuclear conflict with Russia is likelier than you think.
www.vox.com
The wording you are referring to is a scenario where the US launch a pre-emptive full ICBM strike and Putin doesn't respond in kind. There is also one that states "hundreds of millions in the US, Europe and Russia die needlessly". Both of these are related to US pre-emptive strikes.
The wording used is interesting but what it belies is actually a pro-western, pro-humanity view.
Wording where only Russia fires ICBMs: Millions dead. Russian domination.
Wording where only US fires ICBMs: Millions of Russians die needlessly. War ends.
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
It is a fairly accurate, though simplified version of the wargames run by NATO thinktanks.
The key issue is that NATO has generally always believed that battlefield use of nukes is inherently unlikely, whilst Russia sees their use as inevitable.
What is clear is that any war between NATO and Russia would be the greatest gamble in human history.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
‘Simplified’ isn’t the word
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
It isn't fairly accurate. It literally can't be accurate at all. Because it hasn't happened yet.
Cheesyleps
Well-known member
You don't understand what a wargame is, but I'm the one who is thick? Come on!
You really do have reading comprehension issues.
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
Stick to PC games, you type like you know what you're talking about. The reality is you don't.
War isn't won with simulators.
Matesrates
Well-known member
I think your talking about planning, and as my father said, apart from “don’t poke the bear” meaning Russia of course, you can do all the planning you want, but when your there everything is uncertain and you simply fight for survival.
Eternaloptimist
Well-known member
.........and the latest on the same issue
Australia are providing military arms to Ukraine (purported to be £50 million worth)
I think if NATO did get involved (which I still doubt) then Putin wouldn’t get chance to deploy his nuclear weapons because that would be their first objective.
Australia are providing military arms to Ukraine (purported to be £50 million worth)
I think if NATO did get involved (which I still doubt) then Putin wouldn’t get chance to deploy his nuclear weapons because that would be their first objective.
Seasider3610
Well-known member
The other factor in all of this is the money for Putin and co.
The connections can’t travel, the yachts can’t cruise the Med in the summer, no aircraft can fly into Europe, no ships can enter the UK or European ports.
The Russian banks and stock markets lost between 40 to 50% in the first 3 days of the invasion.
The sanctions from around the world are more each day.
It’s no use being the richest c@nuts in the world and you can’t access your yacht or fly anywhere on your private jet is it.
They don’t need Vlads sh it so let’s hope they get rid of him soonest
The connections can’t travel, the yachts can’t cruise the Med in the summer, no aircraft can fly into Europe, no ships can enter the UK or European ports.
The Russian banks and stock markets lost between 40 to 50% in the first 3 days of the invasion.
The sanctions from around the world are more each day.
It’s no use being the richest c@nuts in the world and you can’t access your yacht or fly anywhere on your private jet is it.
They don’t need Vlads sh it so let’s hope they get rid of him soonest
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Lala
Well-known member
Time is of the essence though. Most of these consequences won’t be properly felt until long after Ukraine has fallen, and that‘s too sad.
I hope all of the nations contributing military equipment are getting it there thick and fast and NOW.
Seasider3610
Well-known member
Most of it is already happening right now in the first few days of the invasion.
The ports and air ports are closed to Russia. The banks and stock markets have dropped. The Ruble has dropped 30% against the dollar.
People in Russia are trying to change Rubles into dollars if they can find any so it is already also affecting the normal man/woman in the street.
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Lala
Well-known member
Ye, hope there is enough time for them to get really worn down with it though. Enough to make a stand against PutinMost of it is already happening right now in the first few days of the invasion.
The ports and air ports are closed to Russia. The banks and stock markets have dropped. The Rouble has dropped 30% against the dollar.
People in Russia are trying to change Roubles into dollars if they can find any so it is already also affecting the normal man/woman in the street.
I can’t see Kyiv and the Ukrainian goverment holding out for another week now, maybe even just days. But I really want to be wrong.
Matesrates
Well-known member
Another meeting planned for tomorrow between Russia and Ukraine, let’s hope something comes out of it. I imagine the 40 mile convoy outside Kyiv is waiting for instructions.
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
I've heard it's no where near 40 miles long.
Matesrates
Well-known member
I said the same, everyone knows where the convoy is, so surely attempts will be made to attack/disrupt it.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
I think he may genuinely believe that, it seems to me that he may have concocted some kind of wild alternative reality where the regime is some kind of NATO puppet oppressing the otherwise "Russian" people, and he's riding to their rescue - scary if true.
I wonder if this might be why their progress has been much slower than expected, the soldiers seem to have been fed a line of BS and expected to find NATO troops and the Ukrainians welcoming them with open arms, instead they're meeting fierce resistance from the very people they're supposed to be liberating and don't know what to do.
Seasider3610
Well-known member
“The US has indications the large convoy heading for Kyiv remains in the same position it was yesterday and has made no appreciable movement in the last 24hrs due to fuel and supply shortages, including problems feeding their troops.
American intelligence also assesses that morale is flagging among some Russian units who weren't told they would be involved in combat and some have surrendered without a fight in Ukraine.”
Latest US Intelligence report (from their Special Forces on the ground) on SkyNews website now
Lala
Well-known member
I read it’s in the same place but also that they aren’t 100% sure of the reasons.
Hope it isn’t because they are holding their own military back as they are going to flatten Kyiv with missiles shortly. Hence why the Russian defence secretary has told all Ukrainians to get out of the capital asap.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Power struggle in the Russian government, perhaps? I suspect there's a lot of disquiet in the senior ranks of the military and beyond.
Lala
Well-known member
I really hope so
Shandypants
Well-known member
Why would these be a power struggle? See the 30 minute film by the OP. Controlling the land to the West of Russia is a long held obsession, add gas and oil issues and recent Nato expansion I doubt there's much disquiet in senior ranks. I've said it previously but it doesn't help the situation to brand Putin as some sort of nutcase, you've got to understand Russia and its strategic ambitions to resolve this matter.
Toastrack
Well-known member
No conventional air power, but the Ukes have made successful drone strikes with equipment supplied by Turkey.
Just target the fuel tankers in the convoy - no fuel, no go.
:quality(70)/cloudfront-eu-central-1.images.arcpublishing.com/thenational/ILVTTUSSYJBTVP6HXMXTETTY3I.jpg)
Ukraine's drone strikes a threat to Russia's advancing forces
Moscow's air force yet to enter the battle due to lack of precision bombs and proper training, experts say
www.thenationalnews.com
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