The common market is exactly what we joined not a European Union. A trading bloc, not a United States of Europe. If the thing had stayed what we were told it was, even though I voted to leave in 1975, I would have accepted it. In its current form and what it is trying to become no.
Take it to the extreme TD and just have a single person government where you provide your own policing, health, education, etc services. Then my vote will really count !
Isn't that America?
But that was the start of the embryonic beginnings of the European Project, the beginning of part of becoming a European state, a huge single market trading block without barriers with inbuilt peace, security and stability. We have not fought an internal European war with massive loss of life since. I'll take that over some City of London hedge fund manager with his offshore tax avoidance account any day of the week!!
I was old enough in 1970/71 to listen to and digest what we were being told, and I can assure you that wasn’t it. The relevant questions were asked of the people in positions of power at the time and we were reassured it was purely a trading bloc. Those of us who took the time to read up on the treaty were soon disabused of this idea and realised the final aim was entirely different to what the masses were being told. We were lied to then and have been ever since.
I was 10/11 at that time and remember Heath , decimilastaion and the rest of it. All the rest that followed was quite obvious what it would ultimately lead to. Thatcher used to give lip service to the far right swivelled eyed anti EU loons in her party and did really well to waylay those nutters for as long as she did. Major to an extent but ultimately those fuck ups got their way and Brexit was born and here we are about to accept no deal which is the very very worst of the worst option for us all. Forgive me but I'll never except this is the best move and no amount of Union Jack flag waving bullshit will ever change my mind.
Dream on. That's wishful thinking over evidence on a grand scale.
I don't moan about losing. I'm a British European and proud of it but I don't moan about losing. I regret it (the referendum result) but I don't moan about it Let's see where all this gets the UK. Let's see if the Stokes etc etc are any better off.
Sorry, didn't mean to put 'like'. Well, strong words on your part. Yolk, now there's a word. Except it doesn't sit well with 'freedom' and as I'm sure you know, the EU is founded on 4 Freedoms. That 'yolk' (nearly put a j instead of the y) enabled me to move to Portugal and enjoy the freedom thereof. I could go on about how the UK has prospered under the 'yolk' of 50 years but I won't. I don't moan about the referendum result. I hardly post on here. Let's see where the rest of Europe goes and where the UK goes. I want the best for both.
I also want the best for both, just on different terms. I knew your like was a mistake, just like your support for the EU, 2 mistakes in one night.
I think this post highlights everything that's wrong with the debate, too fractured, too black and white, winners and losers, gloating over something that could be massively damaging or mourning something that might not.
Spot on Go for goal. Trading Block? Yes. Federal Europe? To quote the great lady herself, No no no.
Parliament make laws, the courts enforce them. Or at least that is the theory. In practice the courts, the speaker and lots more, so called, representatives of the people are twisting the rules to suit their remain agenda. The highest court in the land used to be the House of Lords and that served us well for several hundred years, it should revert to that and the Supreme Court should be disbanded. This isn’t sour grapes it’s a fact. Prorogation of Parliament is perfectly legal John Major used the same instrument to avoid a scandal over cash for questions in 1997. Because it didn’t suit his remain ideals he was one of the ones shouting loudest , do as I say not as I do, springs to mind.
Because my own opinion is it won’t work economically. And it won’t work either due to the social and cultural diversity of so many different nations. Just my opinion and I could well be wrong. But I’ve yet to see anything that will convince me otherwise
People are twisting the rules to suit the remain agenda?When Gina Millar took court action it was to ensure that the rules of parliamentary democracy were observed. She received death threats and called a traitor, in my opinion she was maintaining democracy. People can stop using the term remain agenda as we have left, that's it. What I cannot accept is the constant swipes by brexiteers about losing, democracy doesn't end at this it evolves. If the promises made by leave came true that would be great and I'd shut up (preferential deal, remaining in the single market). Its becoming clear that project fear is now project reality as we quickly move to no deal.
No deal, whilst not my preferred option, is also not the total disaster which most remained insist on painting it. It is also infinitely preferable to agreeing to virtually everything the EU, at present, are insisting on. That would be a total betrayal, adhering to all their rules, allowing almost unfettered access to our fish and lots more. All that and still staying aboard a sinking ship, no thanks.
I see the script is now being shifted away from being better alone to being no worse. At this point even no worse off will be a miracle. It's a complete shambles.
I have never at any point said we would be better alone.
I didn't say it was your script, but the whole Leave campaign was based on the lie that we'd be better off. £350 million a week to the NHS for starters.
I'm a remainer Rusty and have my reasons for being so. Nevertheless your concerns are legitimate and worthy of scrutiny. The idea that it doesn't work economically is a good one. In all geographical areas of human population and endeavour people will migrate to the centres of strong economic activity; some for business - to buy & sell, others for good wages. It happens in the EU, where the movements come from the south and east, to the north-west. In the UK, the same economic migration is towards the big cities, then, irrevocably south-east to London. That is not a reason for disbanding the EU - otherwise we should also say break up the UK for the same reason. It is, however, a case for reform.
Some good points 1966. But I just don’t see the reform which is needed coming from within the EU. And I take your point about keeping the peace. I just think the EU is now too big, too unwieldy and there is too much diversity between so many member countries.
£350 million per week equates to £18.2 billion per year. The government have promised £20 billion per year if that comes to pass, then it wasn’t a lie. However the more relevant point, which detractors always seem to miss is we haven’t left yet. We are still paying contributions until 1/1/21 until then we are not saving anything, let’s wait and see.
Why is fishing perceived as being so important, it constitutes 0.05% of our economy, furthermore our tastes vary greatly to our European cousins. We like white fish such as cod whereas we export lobster, crab and langoustine across the channel, which needs to be delivered fresh and some of it still alive. This is going to be problematic if we are out the customs arrangement/single market. Salmon also incurs tariffs into the eu.
It’s the principle, why should countries without a coastline have a fish quota? Why are we one of the few who abide by the rules? Where on earth is the sense in throwing dead fish back into the sea, how is that helping conservation? I am not saying it should be a free for all, of course we have to sustain fish stocks, but there must be a better way. If we have control of our waters, we will decide the rules, not the EU.
Part of me thinks you have a point.
I agree your point re. Croatia. However, I think that nuclear weapons have actually facilitated wars. OK, the big one hasn't happened but lots of border wars and Middle East conflicts have happened precisely because the big powers have not dared to damp them down. This is because of the proxy relationships that these minor combatants have with the USA and Russia.
I take your point about the nuclear deterrent 20s but the West knows that Russia under Putin factors in limited nuclear war as part of all their European conflict strategies.
They've promised £20 billion because of coronavirus, they've reneged on the bus pledge. Gove dismissed it straight after the election.
They promised £20 billion immediately after the last election, before Coronavirus, however let’s wait and see. I’m not holding my breath nor defending this government just repeating the published figures.
Not being pedantic, I'll leave that to 20s, but the bus money was extra money. The election promise was funding level. Double counting sneakiness.
I’m not being pedantic either, but to repeat, if the bus money is true or not we haven’t had it yet.
You're making out that the EU ruled over us like a dictatorship. We were one of the big three that made the decisions, in my humble opinion being out of the club means we will be a rule taker not a rule maker. With a combined force of the EU economies there will be one winner. Then the US and China will pick the bones. It's a sorry state of affairs
Yes, I lived in fear of those dreaded EU secret police, knocking on our doors at midnight to cart us off and provide us with an economic recovery grant.‘You’re making out that the EU ruled over us like a dictatorship ‘ hooray you finally got it.
They won’t knock on yours, if they read this board, they might knock on mine.
Which, therefore, means that the suggestion of nuclear armaments being a bulwark against inter-State warfare in Europe is...err, cobblers.
You do know that all the Promenade improvements have been paid for by the EU? Who's going to pay now?
Because international security is better? Just a thought.