A few things

[TangerinePeel]

Phil. I was disagreeing with the description "brilliant".

Insider, I never referred to him as brilliant - I described a pass as brilliant and he himself as a "victim of his own brilliance", which is just a saying in regard to the fact our fanbase knows how good he can play, and how good he is so he is held to a ridiculously higher standard by some. Some games he has performed just as good/badly as anyone else on the pitch but he is dug out.

I would be in 100% agreement with you that he hasn't been at his best for large parts of this season, certainly far from brilliant. I did feel the Fleetwood game was a perfect example where he was one of our better performers, but because he is Kaikai people were slating him - the typical twitter response seems to be "waste of space" and "get rid", a massive overreaction IMO.

 

[Rektseasider]

So it's his fault that his assist comes to nothing? What I'm saying is that the assists stat doesn't tell the full picture. Chances created will show he has played his full part despite the criticism. Anyone can have a high percentage of successful passes if they're backwards and sideways. Being creative brings in risk. I'm all for allowing him that expression because it will lead to far more goals than any number of passes back to the centre half while retaining possession.

Not sure what you’re arguing against in your opening sentence? Is it that the people around him arn’t good enough? Because if that’s the case we better get a move on searching for upgrades on CJ and Yates.
And on the flip side Kai Kai has missed chances laid on by team mates, so is that hidden criticism we need to give KK?

Yes, I’m not sure on what the actual chance creation stats are and would be genuinely interested to see them for him, and the rest tbh. But the eye test tells me it’s probably about 1 a game for him, as it will be for a large chunk of the squad I imagine.

Comes back to my argument, and a point I think a few miss. He’s a talented player and someone that needs to play in a central attacking role. However we don’t do that, nor is there any indication we’re going to. So what would be the point in activating his contract next year, and more to the point why does he keep getting games now, when I think it’s clear he’s leaving over someone say like Mitchell who has shown a lot of promise, been involved with a few goals this season and seems a more natural fit in the wide position.

I think you’re critiquing Critch in a round about way.

None of the signings made over the last 18 months+ seem like great bang for the buck to me as yet as they've made a right arse of putting what they want in place from day one and then sticking to it. But that's not Kaikai's fault. He's on his fourth manager and I've lost count of the number of different formations he's been plonked in.

He'll leave if the money isn't right or they want to change direction but I can't imagine yet how much of a technical robot his replacement is going to have to be to fit into the way this is starting to mature.

First paragraph I agree with to an extent, around half have been flops, too high if you ask me, but there’s mitigation when you think about the state of the club and the amount of players we had to bring in. CJ, Dougall, Marv, Yates, Gabriel, Garbutt and Madine have proved to be value for money so I’m not sure you’re quiet right when you say they’ve all been worthless.

It’s hard to argue against the chop and change people like KK have gone through, but that’s football. NC’s first duty is to find something that works for the good of BFC. I’d that means KK doesn’t fit, so be it.

I don’t think you’re aware of the situation either, he will leave for free in the summer if the club don’t activate his year option. The chance of someone asking us to activate it to sign him for a fee is non existent.
One of my points is, why activate that option, when he clearly doesn’t fit the new system and his wages can be spent on someone that would. E.g. Charles.

 

[Rektseasider]

When Kaikai played for Shrewsbury as a number 10 behind a target man in a 4231 he scored 12 goals in 26 games with 11 assists

He got 2 EFL player of the month awards during that time

Are they better stats?

I agree with what you’re saying Phil, if you read all my posts on this properly instead of looking for a weird argument you’d see that I agree with that.

My point is that, we’re not employing that role. I’d like to see us try it, but ultimately we’re not doing that. We’re going 4 4 2. It seems to be beneficial to people like Yates, Madine Dougall and the back line.

Perhaps NC can’t find a way to make an attacking ten role work and needs to shoe horn KK into that wide role as he’s so talented it’s hard to drop him but on the flip side it negates him. Now I know you don’t think much of NC and I have my criticisms as well this being on of them.

But ultimately if NC sees the future as 442, and it benefits the majority of players KK is unfortunate collateral damage.

Id be amazed if he’s here after the summer anyway so this is all largely a moot point.

 

[fcblackpool]

Don't think there's too much wrong with him now beyond being held back from being a free spirit by having to fit within a formation and a structure.

That is spot on. I'm not convinced he, nor anyone else who has played at the front end of the mid/wide up front actually knows what they are supposed to be doing- the positions aren't defined, and if they are in KK's case he's constrained. So players who drift out of a game will always struggle to get back.

I've no idea why Mitchell (a lb as main trade) came on and played Rwide- see the touch he was only comfortable taking on his left that natural motion to it towards the touch line? It stayed in, just, but shows his natural tendency. He and KK should have been swapped.

 

[poolfc]

Not sure what you’re arguing against in your opening sentence? Is it that the people around him arn’t good enough? Because if that’s the case we better get a move on searching for upgrades on CJ and Yates.
And on the flip side Kai Kai has missed chances laid on by team mates, so is that hidden criticism we need to give KK?

Yes, I’m not sure on what the actual chance creation stats are and would be genuinely interested to see them for him, and the rest tbh. But the eye test tells me it’s probably about 1 a game for him, as it will be for a large chunk of the squad I imagine.

Comes back to my argument, and a point I think a few miss. He’s a talented player and someone that needs to play in a central attacking role. However we don’t do that, nor is there any indication we’re going to. So what would be the point in activating his contract next year, and more to the point why does he keep getting games now, when I think it’s clear he’s leaving over someone say like Mitchell who has shown a lot of promise, been involved with a few goals this season and seems a more natural fit in the wide position.

I think you’re critiquing Critch in a round about way.


First paragraph I agree with to an extent, around half have been flops, too high if you ask me, but there’s mitigation when you think about the state of the club and the amount of players we had to bring in. CJ, Dougall, Marv, Yates, Gabriel, Garbutt and Madine have proved to be value for money so I’m not sure you’re quiet right when you say they’ve all been worthless.

It’s hard to argue against the chop and change people like KK have gone through, but that’s football. NC’s first duty is to find something that works for the good of BFC. I’d that means KK doesn’t fit, so be it.

I don’t think you’re aware of the situation either, he will leave for free in the summer if the club don’t activate his year option. The chance of someone asking us to activate it to sign him for a fee is non existent.
One of my points is, why activate that option, when he clearly doesn’t fit the new system and his wages can be spent on someone that would. E.g. Charles.

I haven't said the signings have all been worthless, that's a word you've introduced into the conversation. I would say the signings haven't been part of a clear joined up process as yet because a head coach and a football structure to support a head coach wasn't put in place from day one. Hopefully it will start to mean something in the next six months, but there's been far too much churn in trying to find something that works. Kaikai is one of the players signed at the very start who has survived all that and he's still here and in the first team. And whilst he might not seem to hold as high a value as he would if he was the obvious man of the match every week, he's still making a positive contribution. Even six goals and five assists in a season limited by injury last season and then the covid situation is OK considering the balance was shifted towards the right wing and Liam Feeney.

I put the full list on here of OOC's this summer https://avftt.co.uk/index.php?threads/who’s-under-contract.15465/ I think they'll take the option up on him, but we'll see.

 

[Rektseasider]

I haven't said the signings have all been worthless, that's a word you've introduced into the conversation. I would say the signings haven't been part of a clear joined up process as yet because a head coach and a football structure to support a head coach wasn't put in place from day one. Hopefully it will start to mean something in the next six months, but there's been far too much churn in trying to find something that works. Kaikai is one of the players signed at the very start who has survived all that and he's still here and in the first team. And whilst he might not seem to hold as high a value as he would if he was the obvious man of the match every week, he's still making a positive contribution. Even six goals and five assists in a season limited by injury last season and then the covid situation is OK considering the balance was shifted towards the right wing and Liam Feeney.

I put the full list on here of OOC's this summer https://avftt.co.uk/index.php?threads/who’s-under-contract.15465/ I think they'll take the option up on him, but we'll see.

But you said none of them have provided bang for their buck. I mean that isn't true at all, I could do the same thing you did with KK's hidden impact for Yates, Madine, CJ etc etc etc to prove they have proved they have been very much worth it.

Yes I agree that at the start of this season we were very clumsy in the transfer market then you couple that with the fact NC needed to change things at a rapid rate of knots to avoid us going down it led to a squad that was all over the place, but I see us being far more balanced now, with the next transfer window probably rounding it off. I can just see KK being dropped as he doesn't fit the formation and really doesn't offer us what we need out there.

I know you did, it was better than my effort. . The only ones that will have their options taken up for me is …. Adi Yussuf (as an agreement with C'field exists for them to purchase him when we activate it, which allowed them to nab him from Wrexham absolutely fantastic from the chaps upstairs that one), Husband as he's a do it all cover piece and you'd hope Holmes.

I'd want to see Shaw extended but I don't think Critch fancies him at all, can see that coming back to bite us in the future. You could also make an argument to keep Ward, but I think he'd be a back up to CJ and wouldn't feature much.

 

[poolfc]

But you said none of them have provided bang for their buck. I mean that isn't true at all, I could do the same thing you did with KK's hidden impact for Yates, Madine, CJ etc etc etc to prove they have proved they have been very much worth it.

Yes I agree that at the start of this season we were very clumsy in the transfer market then you couple that with the fact NC needed to change things at a rapid rate of knots to avoid us going down it led to a squad that was all over the place, but I see us being far more balanced now, with the next transfer window probably rounding it off. I can just see KK being dropped as he doesn't fit the formation and really doesn't offer us what we need out there.

I know you did, it was better than my effort. . The only ones that will have their options taken up for me is …. Adi Yussuf (as an agreement with C'field exists for them to purchase him when we activate it, which allowed them to nab him from Wrexham absolutely fantastic from the chaps upstairs that one), Husband as he's a do it all cover piece and you'd hope Holmes.

I'd want to see Shaw extended but I don't think Critch fancies him at all, can see that coming back to bite us in the future. You could also make an argument to keep Ward, but I think he'd be a back up to CJ and wouldn't feature much.

We've stayed midtable exactly where we started off from right now. So all the different players, managers, coaches and senior management who have come and gone are yet to provide bang for their buck, which is a term you first used about Kaikai and I'm saying he might not have done but he's not alone.

It feels quite expensive for what it's all been.

 

[Rektseasider]

We've stayed midtable exactly where we started off from right now. So all the different players, managers, coaches and senior management who have come and gone are yet to provide bang for their buck, which is a term you first used about Kaikai and I'm saying he might not have done but he's not alone.

It feels quite expensive for what it's all been.

You're getting a bit fixated on words I'm using, ultimately Kai Kai is behind all the other forward players who are regularly starting for production.

Like I said to Wiz, it would be interesting to see KK's creative stats, but as we struggle to create 3 chances per game on average I cant see it being great.

I can't disagree with your last line, maybe that just highlights how bad the club was when SS took over, which then wasn't helped by rookie errors in the next 18 months.

I am hopeful though that, the next transfer window will bring some balance and quality to the team which is otherwise lacking currently.

If not, its back to square one.

 

[gjr69]

If Kaikai was played in his correct position, behind a forward in a 4 2 3 1 or as the advanced central midfielder in a 3 5 2 and we had people on either flank playing on the side that allowed them to get a decent cross in, then maybe we would create a lot more chances.
If we create more chances then our players might be a little bit cooler and more clinical and finish more of them.
As it is our forwards are lucky to have 1 or 2 decent chances in a game, resulting in most of them looking less than composed when they have a sight of goal.
I've said it before but without Madine this weird inverted winger 4 4 2 doesn't work in an attacking sense.

 

[gjr69]

Correct who knows. But what we do know is Kai Kai offers us 5 goals a season and 4 assists. Doesn’t seem great bang for the buck to be honest.

We also know that Charles is a double figure goal scorer in this league.

Charles is a striker, which we need. Kai Kai is an attacking midfielder, a position we’re not employing under Critch.

Kaikai is our player Charles isn't, the manager should be making best use of what he has available now.
I think it's time to drop the 4 4 2 as Mitchell is probably the only wide player we have that is suited to it.
4 3 3, 3 5 2 or 4 2 3 1 all suit our squad better, if we stick with the inverted winger 4 4 2 I think our lack of goals will cost us a top 6 place.
Kaikai is a good player, use him properly and watch our goals scored increase significantly.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

You're getting a bit fixated on words I'm using, ultimately Kai Kai is behind all the other forward players who are regularly starting for production.

Like I said to Wiz, it would be interesting to see KK's creative stats, but as we struggle to create 3 chances per game on average I cant see it being great.

I can't disagree with your last line, maybe that just highlights how bad the club was when SS took over, which then wasn't helped by rookie errors in the next 18 months.

I am hopeful though that, the next transfer window will bring some balance and quality to the team which is otherwise lacking currently.

If not, its back to square one.

I'm not sure what you're first paragraph means as for most of the season Kaikai has played wide in a midfield 4. In this current system you can't really call him a forward player

Also i dont know what other players we have who have 'produced' more in that role

 

[Rektseasider]

Kaikai is our player Charles isn't, the manager should be making best use of what he has available now.
I think it's time to drop the 4 4 2 as Mitchell is probably the only wide player we have that is suited to it.
4 3 3, 3 5 2 or 4 2 3 1 all suit our squad better, if we stick with the inverted winger 4 4 2 I think our lack of goals will cost us a top 6 place.
Kaikai is a good player, use him properly and watch our goals scored increase significantly.

4 4 2 has unfortunately been the only formation that’s been effective for us, 433 was going to get us relegated so not sure what you mean there. 352 did actually look ok but I think injury’s have put pay to that experiment.

Kai Kai is our player, but for the next 16 games only, probably. Charles is just a hypothetical player who would suit 442 better, as that seems to be the direction we’re heading.

Inwould like to see KK used in a role that suits him more but he’s not and I don’t think he ever will be, so I think we need to move on from that argument.

I'm not sure what you're first paragraph means as for most of the season Kaikai has played wide in a midfield 4. In this current system you can't really call him a forward player

Also i dont know what other players we have who have 'produced' more in that role

It’s telling you don’t reply to the post I directed back at yourself.

It’s almost like you’re manufacturing things. .

I do find you funny Phil so fair play. I don’t even believe you believe half the stuff you come out with on here.
I just laugh at your posts now, they do provide me with a lot of comedy on here. And you do it with your actual name, that’s hats off for me, I have a lot of respect for that.

 

[clappers]

Racist.

There was an interview in the week saying he keeps making progress and training then on some days he's back to square one with no real understanding of what's caused it.

It was a black day over Bills mother’s when Madine had his niggle.

 

[Plumbs]

A great innings from one of the forums pedigree batsman, although he's still to top the classy and swashbuckling style from AVFTT's very own Viv Richards namely @straightatthewall .

 

[Macseasider]

To play devil's advocate on these "stats" relating to Kaikai who is to say A N Other player might have created 20 goals and scored 10 causing us to win more games?

They are fairly meaningless statistics when there is nothing to compare them to. Just saying.

 

[gjr69]

4 4 2 has unfortunately been the only formation that’s been effective for us, 433 was going to get us relegated so not sure what you mean there. 352 did actually look ok but I think injury’s have put pay to that experiment.

Kai Kai is our player, but for the next 16 games only, probably. Charles is just a hypothetical player who would suit 442 better, as that seems to be the direction we’re heading.

Inwould like to see KK used in a role that suits him more but he’s not and I don’t think he ever will be, so I think we need to move on from that argument.

It’s telling you don’t reply to the post I directed back at yourself.

It’s almost like you’re manufacturing things. .

I do find you funny Phil so fair play. I don’t even believe you believe half the stuff you come out with on here.
I just laugh at your posts now, they do provide me with a lot of comedy on here. And you do it with your actual name, that’s hats off for me, I have a lot of respect for that.

4 3 3 wouldn't get us relegated with the players we have now. Add Gabriel, Garbutt, Gretarrsson, Ballard, Stewart and Dougall from day 1 and we might still be playing 4 3 3 now.
If Anderson hadn't got injured put him on the left with Yates in the middle and Hamilton on the right. Kaikai behind them, Dougall and Stewart anchoring the midfield and Garbutt and Gabriel providing the width from the full back position, we would be looking a lot better than we do now.
What I do hope is that Critchley and whoever else is involved in recruitment get their acts together this summer to make the managers ideas into a reality on the pitch.
It didn't happen last summer and it might cost us this season. As for 4 4 2 being the future direction of the team, it might be a good idea to buy a couple of wingers who can make it work because aside from Mitchell we have nobody who can do that job.

 

[Rektseasider]

4 3 3 wouldn't get us relegated with the players we have now. Add Gabriel, Garbutt, Gretarrsson, Ballard, Stewart and Dougall from day 1 and we might still be playing 4 3 3 now.
If Anderson hadn't got injured put him on the left with Yates in the middle and Hamilton on the right. Kaikai behind them, Dougall and Stewart anchoring the midfield and Garbutt and Gabriel providing the width from the full back position, we would be looking a lot better than we do now.
What I do hope is that Critchley and whoever else is involved in recruitment get their acts together this summer to make the managers ideas into a reality on the pitch.
It didn't happen last summer and it might cost us this season. As for 4 4 2 being the future direction of the team, it might be a good idea to buy a couple of wingers who can make it work because aside from Mitchell we have nobody who can do that job.

Completely disagree about 433, it was a disaster then and still would be if we tried it now.

But I do agree last summer was a complete mess, it appeared so at the time and with hind sight looks even more sloppy.

Agree we need to get another winger in on par with CJ, and this was my point about KK he ain’t that. He’s a good player but he’s never going to have a place in this squad.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

Completely disagree about 433, it was a disaster then and still would be if we tried it now.

But I do agree last summer was a complete mess, it appeared so at the time and with hind sight looks even more sloppy.

Agree we need to get another winger in on par with CJ, and this was my point about KK he ain’t that. He’s a good player but he’s never going to have a place in this squad.

Cj isn't a winger though

He's best played as a wide forward player in a 3 not chasing back all the time

Cj really isn't the best in a 442, neither is Kaikai

As for 433 i actually think it could work now as we have loads of players who are suited to that system

The problem when we played 433 was our midfield, teams just ran through us, they wouldn't now with Stewart and Dougall

Its been said enough times but the summer was a disaster in terms of signings and preparation for league 1 football

 

[gjr69]

Completely disagree about 433, it was a disaster then and still would be if we tried it now.

But I do agree last summer was a complete mess, it appeared so at the time and with hind sight looks even more sloppy.

Agree we need to get another winger in on par with CJ, and this was my point about KK he ain’t that. He’s a good player but he’s never going to have a place in this squad.

I don't think Hamilton is a 4 4 2 man, put him on the right of a front 3 and he could be very effective, unless we play 3 5 2 we haven't got anybody in the squad to play wide left apart from Mitchell, which makes it quite baffling that we play formations that require wide midfield players when that is a weak area in the squad.

 

[Rektseasider]

Cj isn't a winger though

He's best played as a wide forward player in a 3 not chasing back all the time

Cj really isn't the best in a 442, neither is Kaikai

As for 433 i actually think it could work now as we have loads of players who are suited to that system

The problem when we played 433 was our midfield, teams just ran through us, they wouldn't now with Stewart and Dougall

Its been said enough times but the summer was a disaster in terms of signings and preparation for league 1 football

I don't think Hamilton is a 4 4 2 man, put him on the right of a front 3 and he could be very effective, unless we play 3 5 2 we haven't got anybody in the squad to play wide left apart from Mitchell, which makes it quite baffling that we play formations that require wide midfield players when that is a weak area in the squad.

I do agree CJ hasn’t looked as effective in 442 as I’d have liked but just when that formation was getting going (which is a relative concept, as we’ve never really got going) he got his injury.

I’d say he could still be effective in 442 as he’s shown it previously. I’d say he’d need Gabriel behind him, but we’d then have to go out next season and get some one in the same mould as Gabriel, tough to do.

I think I just remember back to the start of the season and how piss poor 433 was, the midfield three were playing in different postcodes from one another, I don’t think even Stewart and Dougall are talented enough at this level to overcome that.

It just gives me nightmares and wouldn’t want us to go back to it.

 

[poolfc]

To play devil's advocate on these "stats" relating to Kaikai who is to say A N Other player might have created 20 goals and scored 10 causing us to win more games?

They are fairy meaningless statistics when there is nothing to compare them to. Just saying.

Agree but can only go off what's actually happened. We're still waiting on Bez Lubala on that side of it and they've tried eight different players in total on the left wing so far including Kaikai, but have kept coming back to him to be the one to understand the role and to help make a contribution to the league points.

 

[gjr69]

I do agree CJ hasn’t looked as effective in 442 as I’d have liked but just when that formation was getting going (which is a relative concept, as we’ve never really got going) he got his injury.

I’d say he could still be effective in 442 as he’s shown it previously. I’d say he’d need Gabriel behind him, but we’d then have to go out next season and get some one in the same mould as Gabriel, tough to do.

I think I just remember back to the start of the season and how piss poor 433 was, the midfield three were playing in different postcodes from one another, I don’t think even Stewart and Dougall are talented enough at this level to overcome that.

It just gives me nightmares and wouldn’t want us to go back to it.

Our manager is one of the most highly qualified coaches in Europe, that's how he wanted to play, with the right players he should be able to make it work.
I think this all boils down to the coach having a clear plan, identifying players to make it happen and get them here as quick as possible.
The one thing totally in Critchleys hands is the plan, as a club they need to do better this summer with the other stuff.

 

[Rektseasider]

Our manager is one of the most highly qualified coaches in Europe, that's how he wanted to play, with the right players he should be able to make it work.
I think this all boils down to the coach having a clear plan, identifying players to make it happen and get them here as quick as possible.
The one thing totally in Critchleys hands is the plan, as a club they need to do better this summer with the other stuff.

Training Ground Guru | Graduates of the only FA Elite Coaches Course: Where are they now?

IN 2011, the Football Association invited 16 of the brightest young English coaches to take part in a new Elite Coaches Course. It was disbanded after 18 months, meaning they are the only coaches to hold the award. We set out to discover what they're doing now.

trainingground.guru

On the most Qualified manager thing, think this link kind of exposes that as a major over promotion/ CV fiddle.

But I do agree, for me he needs to use these last 15 games or so to really try things that he thinks will work, see if they do or don't and why. It doesn't really look like he is at the minute and he's settled on 442. If he suddenly changes course and goes for something out of the ordinary at the start of next season I think I'll find it bizarre.

 

[td53]

You're getting a bit fixated on words I'm using, ultimately Kai Kai is behind all the other forward players who are regularly starting for production.

Like I said to Wiz, it would be interesting to see KK's creative stats, but as we struggle to create 3 chances per game on average I cant see it being great.

I can't disagree with your last line, maybe that just highlights how bad the club was when SS took over, which then wasn't helped by rookie errors in the next 18 months.

I am hopeful though that, the next transfer window will bring some balance and quality to the team which is otherwise lacking currently.

If not, its back to square one.

Eh? He's being played in midfield so he's behind only CJ. (And then, ahead of him in assists and not benefitting from the 'knock it to CJ in the corner tactic)

He's made and scored more than Ward, Robson, Stewart, Dougall, Virtue, Williams and I think Bez and Mitchell combined in the league. Add their stats up (total appearances, goals and assists and put them next to Sullay's)

He's played mostly on the left of midfield so it makes no sense to compare him to Yates, Simms or Madine. We haven't played an actual 433 since forever. We've been more like 45 when not 442

He's also put in more cross than anyone per game aside from Garbutt, even though he's on his wrong foot and not a winger.

I still don't understand the logic here. We're not creative, therefore it must be the fault of the player who is creative. Ok, he's not creative enough to compensate for the lack of creativity of the rest of the team but he'd have to be some player to do that, especially out of position

Seems some just want some more strapping bruisers. A reckon a team of Kevin Stewart's is what some people want. All huffing up and down and doing slide tackles and manly stuff, whilst shouting and pointing

 

[Rektseasider]

Eh? He's being played in midfield so he's behind only CJ. (And then, ahead of him in assists and not benefitting from the 'knock it to CJ in the corner tactic)

He's made and scored more than Ward, Robson, Stewart, Dougall, Virtue, Williams and I think Bez and Mitchell combined in the league. Add their stats up (total appearances, goals and assists and put them next to Sullay's)

He's played mostly on the left of midfield so it makes no sense to compare him to Yates, Simms or Madine. We haven't played an actual 433 since forever. We've been more like 451.

He's also put in more cross than anyone per game aside from Garbutt, even though he's on his wrong foot and not a winger.

I still don't understand the logic here. We're not creative, therefore it must be the fault of the player who is creative. Ok, he's not creative enough to compensate for the lack of creativity of the rest of the team but he'd have to be some player to do that, especially out of position

Seems some just want some more strapping bruisers. A reckon a team of Kevin Stewart's is what some people want. All huffing up and down and doing slide tackles and manly stuff, whilst shouting and pointing

You’ve missed the point I’m making back at people that say he’s ‘ the most creative player’ in the team. The stats don’t really bare it out. Plus he did play just shy of a quarter of the season up top in a three, again for me he looked average then. Which people conveniently forget when they’re arguing this point.

But CJ’s also missed a good chunk of this season - and is still ahead of him on goals so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument?

Robson, Grant and Williams are all defensive midd who have largely been dropped, I’m not sure at all why they feature in your post they’re not really there to score goals.

like I say he’s behind CJ but ahead of Mitchell and Bez in both stats and the bleeding obvious.

People have got the wrong end of the stick with what I’m saying, maybe that’s my fault, but I have repeatedly said he’s one of the most talented players we have. He’s being played out of position and that hasn’t helped him, but I don’t think he has a future with us, some his own doing and some the clubs.


The facts are, we look like we’re going 442 now, it’s the only thing that’s brought us a modicum of success. So do we change all that now it accommodate one player? Posters who have been most vocal
On this thread are also the ones saying we’re still in with a shout this year.
A change now to something that would accommodate Kai Kai could end in disaster as everything else we’ve tried this season which promises attacking flair, has seen us be just as impotent but liable to ship a few more goals.

I could see said posters then complaining we changed things.

Anyway, he gives us modest results being played out of position, is he ever likely to be player in his position. I’d say no. Is he likely to get the option activated, again I’d say no, and wouldn’t shed a tear as I think his wages could be used on someone more attuned to our needs in a 442.

Not sure if you’ve read everything I’ve said on him but I’ve not really blamed him at all, I’ve said I feel sorry for him and that he’s a victim of circumstance. What a lot of people are failing to see is that someone else either now or after the summer could offer us far more.

If your last paragraphs taking the piss I’m not sure why as I’ve tried to explain what I’d want over KK, which isn’t a ‘strapping bruiser’.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

The fact that this thread had majored in formations speaks volumes. For me, and as many have said, Critchley & Calderwood are about structure/shape. It is clear that everybody on the pitch is doing their utmost to fit the shapes that have been assigned. This explains the tortuous passing back and across the pitch; not because we can't find a way in but because that would require players to act with a degree of independence.
Jerry Yates is almost on his own at figuratively saying, "bugger this, I'm going to have a go". But even then, that only happens when we're close to full-time.
My message to NC is, 'cut the players some slack'. I'm not suggesting that Ballard, Thorniley or Husband should go route one into the opposition area (Evo-style). But those in front of them should be able to come up with some 'off the menu' ideas. They're grown men, with brains of their own. They're not school children.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

Its a really good thread this

Thanks for taking part

Its nice to have a proper football discussion instead of all that politics nonsense

 

[poolfc]

The fact that this thread had majored in formations speaks volumes. For me, and as many have said, Critchley & Calderwood are about structure/shape. It is clear that everybody on the pitch is doing their utmost to fit the shapes that have been assigned. This explains the tortuous passing back and across the pitch; not because we can't find a way in but because that would require players to act with a degree of independence.
Jerry Yates is almost on his own at figuratively saying, "bugger this, I'm going to have a go". But even then, that only happens when we're close to full-time.
My message to NC is, 'cut the players some slack'. I'm not suggesting that Ballard, Thorniley or Husband should go route one into the opposition area (Evo-style). But those in front of them should be able to come up with some 'off the menu' ideas. They're grown men, with brains of their own. They're not school children.

I think what they're aiming for here won't be too far away from these bullet points that the FA are trying for. To stop England just being kick and rush athletes who don't have the brain and feet skills to win the big games:

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It's just frustrating as buggery at times when you can see a gap for a player to run beyond into, or a moment where the tempo needs to be upped, but it doesn't happen and the ball goes backwards because of a fear of losing it. And then it's a lottery of whether they lose it anyway as they're league one lads and sometimes on dodgy pitches. Or someone won't shoot when they could as that represents a lower possibility of scoring than a tap in. And it can be amplified when having to watch it play out via a screen where you get an overview. The enjoyment just comes from the result being a win mostly, certainly for me. Constantly on edge thinking are we in control here or not.

 

[td53]

You’ve missed the point I’m making back at people that say he’s ‘ the most creative player’ in the team. The stats don’t really bare it out. Plus he did play just shy of a quarter of the season up top in a three, again for me he looked average then. Which people conveniently forget when they’re arguing this point.

But CJ’s also missed a good chunk of this season - and is still ahead of him on goals so I’m not sure where that leaves your argument?

Robson, Grant and Williams are all defensive midd who have largely been dropped, I’m not sure at all why they feature in your post they’re not really there to score goals.

like I say he’s behind CJ but ahead of Mitchell and Bez in both stats and the bleeding obvious.

People have got the wrong end of the stick with what I’m saying, maybe that’s my fault, but I have repeatedly said he’s one of the most talented players we have. He’s being played out of position and that hasn’t helped him, but I don’t think he has a future with us, some his own doing and some the clubs.


The facts are, we look like we’re going 442 now, it’s the only thing that’s brought us a modicum of success. So do we change all that now it accommodate one player? Posters who have been most vocal
On this thread are also the ones saying we’re still in with a shout this year.
A change now to something that would accommodate Kai Kai could end in disaster as everything else we’ve tried this season which promises attacking flair, has seen us be just as impotent but liable to ship a few more goals.

I could see said posters then complaining we changed things.

Anyway, he gives us modest results being played out of position, is he ever likely to be player in his position. I’d say no. Is he likely to get the option activated, again I’d say no, and wouldn’t shed a tear as I think his wages could be used on someone more attuned to our needs in a 442.

Not sure if you’ve read everything I’ve said on him but I’ve not really blamed him at all, I’ve said I feel sorry for him and that he’s a victim of circumstance. What a lot of people are failing to see is that someone else either now or after the summer could offer us far more.

If your last paragraphs taking the piss I’m not sure why as I’ve tried to explain what I’d want over KK, which isn’t a ‘strapping bruiser’.

The point is, you brought up his stats - in the context of the rest of the team he is still the most creative player however you spin it. The formation isn't really making *anyone* into a creater which is made by combining every person who played centre mid for us this year and finding they've contributed the square root of fuck all in terms of attacking impact. Ok, yes,some of them are defensive midfielders fair enough, but it's still a fairly derisory attacking contribution.

I dunno why Sullay gets such stick when he's palpably more creative than anyone else. You just need to watch him play

I was making a light hearted comment as opposed to piss taking. Soz... tbf, Dion Charles does run about a lot, not sure if he's any good at pointing tho. (Though I've not read all the comments so might have named others)

I do think the issue is that anyone else who comes in as a 'creater' is not going to enjoy the freedom to create. If we can't work a player like Sullay in who had a reasonable record (let's face, it, we *really* missed him last year when he was out) then what other creative player are we going to fit in?

To be honest, I don't disagree with the idea that he's never going to fitted in to the formation and we're never going to play a no10 in the Sullay mode whilst we play Critchball mk2

 

[Rektseasider]

The point is, you brought up his stats - in the context of the rest of the team he is still the most creative player however you spin it. The formation isn't really making *anyone* into a creater which is made by combining every person who played centre mid for us this year and finding they've contributed the square root of fuck all in terms of attacking impact. Ok, yes,some of them are defensive midfielders fair enough, but it's still a fairly derisory attacking contribution.

I dunno why Sullay gets such stick when he's palpably more creative than anyone else. You just need to watch him play

I was making a light hearted comment as opposed to piss taking. Soz... tbf, Dion Charles does run about a lot, not sure if he's any good at pointing tho. (Though I've not read all the comments so might have named others)

I do think the issue is that anyone else who comes in as a 'creater' is not going to enjoy the freedom to create. If we can't work a player like Sullay in who had a reasonable record (let's face, it, we *really* missed him last year when he was out) then what other creative player are we going to fit in?

To be honest, I don't disagree with the idea that he's never going to fitted in to the formation and we're never going to play a no10 in the Sullay mode whilst we play Critchball mk2

But if you’re not including the strikers in the comparables, then there’s really only KK, CJ, Bez and Mitchell.

Bez looks to be absolute pony, no arguments there.
Mitchell looks promising and I’d argue if he was given as much game time as KK in the left wide role he’d have contributed just as much.
CJ, he’s about level with him but with CJ having played about 10 (maybe) less games.

He is talented, no question, I’m just not buying the narrative that he’s head and shoulders above anyone we have now or could attract, with our new found financial muscle.

. No need to apologies, I was back to the wall scrapping for my point.
I agree with what you and the others have said It’s a worry that most of our creatives have been overtly stifled.

Genuine question, on the basis we’re going 442 next season, would you activate his one year option?

 

[td53]

But if you’re not including the strikers in the comparables, then there’s really only KK, CJ, Bez and Mitchell.

Bez looks to be absolute pony, no arguments there.
Mitchell looks promising and I’d argue if he was given as much game time as KK in the left wide role he’d have contributed just as much.
CJ, he’s about level with him but with CJ having played about 10 (maybe) less games.

He is talented, no question, I’m just not buying the narrative that he’s head and shoulders above anyone we have now or could attract, with our new found financial muscle.

. No need to apologies, I was back to the wall scrapping for my point.
I agree with what you and the others have said It’s a worry that most of our creatives have been overtly stifled.

Genuine question, on the basis we’re going 442 next season, would you activate his one year option?

Yes. I would.

Will Critch? I dunno. I suspect he'll be well aware that there's actually very few left sided midfielders tearing up the trees in Div 1 - he's tried to get Bez out of Div 2 to play the Sullay role but better and that's not worked at all, so the assumption he'll just get a better player easily isn't an easy one. If he's got someone lined up, no, he won't because we're stuck with players and he'll need the room, but I wouldn't take it as a given Sullay is goner.

Here's an interesting stats thing for you cos I've got no life and you just made me in charge of contracts for next year...

Of all the players in the division who've played left midfield in a 442, Sullay is the leading assist maker in that position. He also has the most key passes and is the 5th highest scorer. The one player who stands out as way ahead as a goalscorer is Curtis at Portsmouth.

There's not actually that many players who regularly play in a 442 on the left, but Sullay is leading assists and key passes on a per game basis if you wash the data of people like Aiden Mcgeady who has played there once and assisted twice within that one match. So, by those metrics (15 games at ML - with 4 assists and 26 key passes + 2 goals) he's one of the very best in the league (certainly of those that play regularly). He's also 2nd for number of crosses delivered per game from that position. As he's playing out of position, I'd say that wasn't bad at all.

By comparison, CJ has played 9 at MR, scored 1, assisted 1 and has 17 key passes. He's got a lot lower successful crosses per game ratio

Therefore, you'd say Sullay is mostly more effective than CJ in a 442, especially at creating for others.

Stats are always deceptive but he does come out of that pretty well. Even if you add in all left sided attackers in any formation, Only Mcgeady (obviously, cos he's way out of this league) and Charlie Kirk (Crewe) have more assists than him and he's still way up there on key passes and successful crosses per game. Kirk is WAY ahead on that metric for some reason,I didn't particularly notice him when they played us. Sullay does fairly well on most of the attacking metrics, except weirdly, dribbling, which is odd cos we know he can dribble but for whatever reason, he isn't. Presumably because he's been told to do it less. (no one in our team really does it much at all) - There are left sided players who've scored more, but mostly playing in more advanced role (Lewis-Potter at Hull Rogers at Lincoln (18 yrs old, 5 in 12!) as a left sided forward.

I agree with you that Mitchell might do well left wing, but that takes us back to the inverting for the sake of it argument and the nature of our forwards and so on as really, I'd like to see Demi going outside and pinging it across again and again and I don't think that's the way we play even more than Sullay isn't ever going to have a round hole to fit into.

 

[Rektseasider]

Yes. I would.

Will Critch? I dunno. I suspect he'll be well aware that there's actually very few left sided midfielders tearing up the trees in Div 1 - he's tried to get Bez out of Div 2 to play the Sullay role but better and that's not worked at all, so the assumption he'll just get a better player easily isn't an easy one. If he's got someone lined up, no, he won't because we're stuck with players and he'll need the room, but I wouldn't take it as a given Sullay is goner.

Here's an interesting stats thing for you cos I've got no life and you just made me in charge of contracts for next year...

Of all the players in the division who've played left midfield in a 442, Sullay is the leading assist maker in that position. He also has the most key passes and is the 5th highest scorer. The one player who stands out as way ahead as a goalscorer is Curtis at Portsmouth.

There's not actually that many players who regularly play in a 442 on the left, but Sullay is leading assists and key passes on a per game basis if you wash the data of people like Aiden Mcgeady who has played there once and assisted twice within that one match. So, by those metrics (15 games at ML - with 4 assists and 26 key passes + 2 goals) he's one of the very best in the league (certainly of those that play regularly). He's also 2nd for number of crosses delivered per game from that position. As he's playing out of position, I'd say that wasn't bad at all.

By comparison, CJ has played 9 at MR, scored 1, assisted 1 and has 17 key passes. He's got a lot lower successful crosses per game ratio

Therefore, you'd say Sullay is mostly more effective than CJ in a 442, especially at creating for others.

Stats are always deceptive but he does come out of that pretty well. Even if you add in all left sided attackers in any formation, Only Mcgeady (obviously, cos he's way out of this league) and Charlie Kirk (Crewe) have more assists than him and he's still way up there on key passes and successful crosses per game. Kirk is WAY ahead on that metric for some reason,I didn't particularly notice him when they played us. Sullay does fairly well on most of the attacking metrics, except weirdly, dribbling, which is odd cos we know he can dribble but for whatever reason, he isn't. Presumably because he's been told to do it less. (no one in our team really does it much at all) - There are left sided players who've scored more, but mostly playing in more advanced role (Lewis-Potter at Hull Rogers at Lincoln (18 yrs old, 5 in 12!) as a left sided forward.

I agree with you that Mitchell might do well left wing, but that takes us back to the inverting for the sake of it argument and the nature of our forwards and so on as really, I'd like to see Demi going outside and pinging it across again and again and I don't think that's the way we play even more than Sullay isn't ever going to have a round hole to fit into.

In fairness that’s probably the best reply I’ve ever received on here.

and bravo for taking the time on digging all that out, what data base do you use for your stats, I’d genuinely like to use what ever you’ve done.

One question I will as is, do those stats cover him only as a left sided midfielder because he did play 8/9 games in a forward three. Which could inflate his status somewhat. But that’s me just guessing.

Perhaps I’m demanding too much from KK because if those are sort of the top end stats that’s pretty damming on the quality in this league and would point towards no one doing well. I’m not sure it’s a definite that CJ’s behind KK though in a wide midfield role. He has 6 games on him on those stats and CJ would only need 1 goal a few assists and around 1key pass’ a game (however that’s measured) to be at parity.

Perhaps it just shows that both CJ and KK, two of our more talented players are criminally under used in a wide position.

I do fear that Critch is really limited tactically and doesn’t quite know what to do with KK and CJ and Anderson when fit, which is why I argue that KK shouldn’t have his option triggered as we could direct his wages towards a striker who might give us more bang for the buck on Critch’s chosen system, as it would be far more simple for Critch to get goals from and out and out striker over a complex character like KK.

 

[Rektseasider]

Yes. I would.

Will Critch? I dunno. I suspect he'll be well aware that there's actually very few left sided midfielders tearing up the trees in Div 1 - he's tried to get Bez out of Div 2 to play the Sullay role but better and that's not worked at all, so the assumption he'll just get a better player easily isn't an easy one. If he's got someone lined up, no, he won't because we're stuck with players and he'll need the room, but I wouldn't take it as a given Sullay is goner.

Here's an interesting stats thing for you cos I've got no life and you just made me in charge of contracts for next year...

Of all the players in the division who've played left midfield in a 442, Sullay is the leading assist maker in that position. He also has the most key passes and is the 5th highest scorer. The one player who stands out as way ahead as a goalscorer is Curtis at Portsmouth.

There's not actually that many players who regularly play in a 442 on the left, but Sullay is leading assists and key passes on a per game basis if you wash the data of people like Aiden Mcgeady who has played there once and assisted twice within that one match. So, by those metrics (15 games at ML - with 4 assists and 26 key passes + 2 goals) he's one of the very best in the league (certainly of those that play regularly). He's also 2nd for number of crosses delivered per game from that position. As he's playing out of position, I'd say that wasn't bad at all.

By comparison, CJ has played 9 at MR, scored 1, assisted 1 and has 17 key passes. He's got a lot lower successful crosses per game ratio

Therefore, you'd say Sullay is mostly more effective than CJ in a 442, especially at creating for others.

Stats are always deceptive but he does come out of that pretty well. Even if you add in all left sided attackers in any formation, Only Mcgeady (obviously, cos he's way out of this league) and Charlie Kirk (Crewe) have more assists than him and he's still way up there on key passes and successful crosses per game. Kirk is WAY ahead on that metric for some reason,I didn't particularly notice him when they played us. Sullay does fairly well on most of the attacking metrics, except weirdly, dribbling, which is odd cos we know he can dribble but for whatever reason, he isn't. Presumably because he's been told to do it less. (no one in our team really does it much at all) - There are left sided players who've scored more, but mostly playing in more advanced role (Lewis-Potter at Hull Rogers at Lincoln (18 yrs old, 5 in 12!) as a left sided forward.

I agree with you that Mitchell might do well left wing, but that takes us back to the inverting for the sake of it argument and the nature of our forwards and so on as really, I'd like to see Demi going outside and pinging it across again and again and I don't think that's the way we play even more than Sullay isn't ever going to have a round hole to fit into.

In fairness that’s probably the best reply I’ve ever received on here.

and bravo for taking the time on digging all that out, what data base do you use for your stats, I’d genuinely like to use what ever you’ve have there.

One question I will ask is, do those stats cover him only as a left sided midfielder because he did play 8/9 games in a forward three. Which could inflate his status somewhat. But that’s me just guessing.

Perhaps I’m demanding too much from KK because if those are sort of the top end stats that’s pretty damming on the quality in this league and would point towards no one doing well. I’m not sure it’s a definite that CJ’s behind KK though in a wide midfield role. He has 6 games on him on those stats and CJ would only need 1 goal a few assists and around 1 ‘key pass’ a game (however that’s measured) to be at parity.

Perhaps it just shows that both CJ and KK, two of our more talented players are criminally under used in a wide position.

I do fear that Critch is really limited tactically and doesn’t quite know what to do with KK, CJ and Anderson when fit, which is why I argue that KK shouldn’t have his option triggered as we could direct his wages towards a striker who might give us more bang for the buck on Critch’s chosen system, as it would be far more simple for Critch to get goals from an out and out striker over a complex character like

 

[td53]

In fairness that’s probably the best reply I’ve ever received on here.

and bravo for taking the time on digging all that out, what data base do you use for your stats, I’d genuinely like to use what ever you’ve have there.

One question I will ask is, do those stats cover him only as a left sided midfielder because he did play 8/9 games in a forward three. Which could inflate his status somewhat. But that’s me just guessing.

Perhaps I’m demanding too much from KK because if those are sort of the top end stats that’s pretty damming on the quality in this league and would point towards no one doing well. I’m not sure it’s a definite that CJ’s behind KK though in a wide midfield role. He has 6 games on him on those stats and CJ would only need 1 goal a few assists and around 1 ‘key pass’ a game (however that’s measured) to be at parity.

Perhaps it just shows that both CJ and KK, two of our more talented players are criminally under used in a wide position.

I do fear that Critch is really limited tactically and doesn’t quite know what to do with KK, CJ and Anderson when fit, which is why I argue that KK shouldn’t have his option triggered as we could direct his wages towards a striker who might give us more bang for the buck on Critch’s chosen system, as it would be far more simple for Critch to get goals from an out and out striker over a complex character like

It's whoscored

It's looking at the games he's played at ML and in the latter section at ML + AML and comparing him against other players in the same positions.

You can search for stats by position or combination of positions and then by minimum number of games (cos you get weird anomalies when players have played only a few games if you view some of the stats which are per game - i.e. Rob Apter comes out on top of assists per game for all players!)

 

[Mark_GT]

As I've mentioned before Sullay has also added the role of gimlet eyed defensive assassin to his skill set. That's two big hits in two matches now. On a more serious note I'm with td on Sullay. He can frustrate, but he seems to be doing this less of late and he sees the pass that others don't (or won't - "I vas only obeying orders mein herr") make. Until CJ gets his mojo back he's our best creative option.

 

[Rektseasider]

It's whoscored

It's looking at the games he's played at ML and in the latter section at ML + AML and comparing him against other players in the same positions.

You can search for stats by position or combination of positions and then by minimum number of games (cos you get weird anomalies when players have played only a few games if you view some of the stats which are per game - i.e. Rob Apter comes out on top of assists per game for all players!)

I’m starting to question the veracity of these stats it has us at nearly 13 shots a game

To add, I jest, it seems like it has quiet a few stats other sites miss out. Thanks for pointing me in the direction.

just had a look through League One and it’s interesting to see that there are a few other players out there Josh Simms (Donny) Sirike Dembele (P’boro) who have slightly more assists than KK and play a similar position. It would appear both are interchangeable to left winger right wing and just behind a striker in Dembele’s case.


KK and CJ are criminally misused.

 

[Rektseasider]

Yes. I would.

Will Critch? I dunno. I suspect he'll be well aware that there's actually very few left sided midfielders tearing up the trees in Div 1 - he's tried to get Bez out of Div 2 to play the Sullay role but better and that's not worked at all, so the assumption he'll just get a better player easily isn't an easy one. If he's got someone lined up, no, he won't because we're stuck with players and he'll need the room, but I wouldn't take it as a given Sullay is goner.

Here's an interesting stats thing for you cos I've got no life and you just made me in charge of contracts for next year...

Of all the players in the division who've played left midfield in a 442, Sullay is the leading assist maker in that position. He also has the most key passes and is the 5th highest scorer. The one player who stands out as way ahead as a goalscorer is Curtis at Portsmouth.

There's not actually that many players who regularly play in a 442 on the left, but Sullay is leading assists and key passes on a per game basis if you wash the data of people like Aiden Mcgeady who has played there once and assisted twice within that one match. So, by those metrics (15 games at ML - with 4 assists and 26 key passes + 2 goals) he's one of the very best in the league (certainly of those that play regularly). He's also 2nd for number of crosses delivered per game from that position. As he's playing out of position, I'd say that wasn't bad at all.

By comparison, CJ has played 9 at MR, scored 1, assisted 1 and has 17 key passes. He's got a lot lower successful crosses per game ratio

Therefore, you'd say Sullay is mostly more effective than CJ in a 442, especially at creating for others.

Stats are always deceptive but he does come out of that pretty well. Even if you add in all left sided attackers in any formation, Only Mcgeady (obviously, cos he's way out of this league) and Charlie Kirk (Crewe) have more assists than him and he's still way up there on key passes and successful crosses per game. Kirk is WAY ahead on that metric for some reason,I didn't particularly notice him when they played us. Sullay does fairly well on most of the attacking metrics, except weirdly, dribbling, which is odd cos we know he can dribble but for whatever reason, he isn't. Presumably because he's been told to do it less. (no one in our team really does it much at all) - There are left sided players who've scored more, but mostly playing in more advanced role (Lewis-Potter at Hull Rogers at Lincoln (18 yrs old, 5 in 12!) as a left sided forward.

I agree with you that Mitchell might do well left wing, but that takes us back to the inverting for the sake of it argument and the nature of our forwards and so on as really, I'd like to see Demi going outside and pinging it across again and again and I don't think that's the way we play even more than Sullay isn't ever going to have a round hole to fit into.

I’m up with my daughter who’s got a fever again and I’m trying to bore her to sleep with boring League One stats. But I’m going have to push back abit on this now I’ve had a look.

I think you’re being too narrow on who you’ve included in your sample or maybe it’s just what the site churned out when left mid left attack is put in. But I went back and checked where some players who are listed as central or right attackers have actually been playing for their teams, there a few more who mostly or at least sometimes at left wing or midfield.

Four that weren’t included were Demeble and Simms who I’ve mentioned, they have alternated between left and right but I feel deserve including as does Leahy at Bristol Rovers who’s been playing left mid and left wing back. As does MacDonald at Gills before he got an injury, was mainly used out left in a midfield 4 or 5.

KK falls below Simms, and Demblele in the assists but stays above McD and Leahy.

Kai Kai comes below Simms Dembele and Leahy for goals but is above McD.

He falls below all of them in this key pass category. That’s whilst also falling behind the people you mention such as Cutis and McGiedy. It puts him at around the 8th or 9th most potent wide attacker in the division, I haven’t checked through the whole league for this but just a few who I noticed had played fairly regularly at left mid, but I suppose it’s still not bad regarding KK, but again not every team employs them so I’m not sure where his true figure is in that regard.
When I looked into the effective passes thing 2/3 of KK key passes were free kicks. His free kicks and general deliveries are very good in my opinion. But my point is that if you put say Garbutt on 100% of the free kicks and corners from now on it would distort his stats and drastically reduce KK’s impact on games.

I guess it’s all a moot point really as he is a victim of circumstance, as have so many others over the last 2 years, and he’ll continued to be misused.

Right off to give this one a double dose of calpol so I can get some bloody sleep.

 

[td53]

I’m up with my daughter who’s got a fever again and I’m trying to bore her to sleep with boring League One stats. But I’m going have to push back abit on this now I’ve had a look.

I think you’re being too narrow on who you’ve included in your sample or maybe it’s just what the site churned out when left mid left attack is put in. But I went back and checked where some players who are listed as central or right attackers have actually been playing for their teams, there a few more who mostly or at least sometimes at left wing or midfield.

Four that weren’t included were Demeble and Simms who I’ve mentioned, they have alternated between left and right but I feel deserve including as does Leahy at Bristol Rovers who’s been playing left mid and left wing back. As does MacDonald at Gills before he got an injury, was mainly used out left in a midfield 4 or 5.

KK falls below Simms, and Demblele in the assists but stays above McD and Leahy.

Kai Kai comes below Simms Dembele and Leahy for goals but is above McD.

He falls below all of them in this key pass category. That’s whilst also falling behind the people you mention such as Cutis and McGiedy. It puts him at around the 8th or 9th most potent wide attacker in the division, I haven’t checked through the whole league for this but just a few who I noticed had played fairly regularly at left mid, but I suppose it’s still not bad regarding KK, but again not every team employs them so I’m not sure where his true figure is in that regard.
When I looked into the effective passes thing 2/3 of KK key passes were free kicks. His free kicks and general deliveries are very good in my opinion. But my point is that if you put say Garbutt on 100% of the free kicks and corners from now on it would distort his stats and drastically reduce KK’s impact on games.

I guess it’s all a moot point really as he is a victim of circumstance, as have so many others over the last 2 years, and he’ll continued to be misused.

Right off to give this one a double dose of calpol so I can get some bloody sleep.

No he doesn't - not for games played in that position. The question was, does he have worth on the left in a 442 and my original point was there aren't that many players who are doing it on the left in a 442 (or in my second analysis) any formation.

Again, I have only looked at the players performance in those games in which they played in those positions - initially at ML (as you question was 442) then inc AML

The site tracks where players play every game and afaics is pretty accurate.

I have included all those players, just only their performances at left midfield. As I say, there's very few players who have played many games at ML

Other players comfortably beat him but you're factoring in what they've done playing on the other wing as well I think. Which doesn't really answer the original question about playing him on the left in a 442.

In fact, Kaikai him self has started 1 game on the right in which he scored 1 goal.

You have to use the detailed view to filter by position actually played - it'll show you that say Mcgeady has 2 assists from ML and 10 from AML + ML. (Not sure if you found this feature, took me a while) and he's right up there in those tables as it will only show the stats from that positions. I.e it discounts Sullay's goal from the game he started on the right.

The shots is based in attempts I think as it's got Bez really high in shot count. Which seems accurate cos he shoots like a nutter. They just always get blocked. Demi the same.

Hope ye daughter is ok

.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

I'm liking the way people are using data sites to make their point on an obscure football forum

Dedication lads ...

I just work of memory

 

[Wizaard]

I’m up with my daughter who’s got a fever again and I’m trying to bore her to sleep with boring League One stats. But I’m going have to push back abit on this now I’ve had a look.

I think you’re being too narrow on who you’ve included in your sample or maybe it’s just what the site churned out when left mid left attack is put in. But I went back and checked where some players who are listed as central or right attackers have actually been playing for their teams, there a few more who mostly or at least sometimes at left wing or midfield.

Four that weren’t included were Demeble and Simms who I’ve mentioned, they have alternated between left and right but I feel deserve including as does Leahy at Bristol Rovers who’s been playing left mid and left wing back. As does MacDonald at Gills before he got an injury, was mainly used out left in a midfield 4 or 5.

KK falls below Simms, and Demblele in the assists but stays above McD and Leahy.

Kai Kai comes below Simms Dembele and Leahy for goals but is above McD.

He falls below all of them in this key pass category. That’s whilst also falling behind the people you mention such as Cutis and McGiedy. It puts him at around the 8th or 9th most potent wide attacker in the division, I haven’t checked through the whole league for this but just a few who I noticed had played fairly regularly at left mid, but I suppose it’s still not bad regarding KK, but again not every team employs them so I’m not sure where his true figure is in that regard.
When I looked into the effective passes thing 2/3 of KK key passes were free kicks. His free kicks and general deliveries are very good in my opinion. But my point is that if you put say Garbutt on 100% of the free kicks and corners from now on it would distort his stats and drastically reduce KK’s impact on games.

I guess it’s all a moot point really as he is a victim of circumstance, as have so many others over the last 2 years, and he’ll continued to be misused.

Right off to give this one a double dose of calpol so I can get some bloody sleep.

There are 24 teams, most of who play 4 or 5 midfielders. Whether he's 4th or 5th isn't the point. For all the knockers, he's still one of the most effective players in the division and certainly in our squad.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

There are 24 teams, most of who play 4 or 5 midfielders. Whether he's 4th or 5th isn't the point. For all the knockers, he's still one of the most effective players in the division and certainly in our squad.

He certainly is

You only have to hear the away comms on I Follow and all season you will have heard how highly he's thought of by everyone except our own fans

I remember Holloway when he first joined us and he had a defined way of playing, then he looked at the squad and thought no i will change it to suit the players he had

Thats what Critchley needs to do, find a way to get our creative players into attacking positions

Its interesting that CJ who everyone rates hasn't pulled up any trees when he's been played in a 4 either

If we are going to continue with this rigid 442 we might as well play 4 fullbacks

 

[20togo]

I think it's possible to have a flexible front 3. Those 3 are Hamilton out wide, Madine down the middle and then Yates as the flexible player playing between the position of out wide and getting in close to Madine. It's pretty much what was happening when all three were fit and in the side and we looked more of a goal threat than at any other time this season.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

I think it's possible to have a flexible front 3. Those 3 are Hamilton out wide, Madine down the middle and then Yates as the flexible player playing between the position of out wide and getting in close to Madine. It's pretty much what was happening when all three were fit and in the side and we looked more of a goal threat than at any other time this season.

I agree 20s

We struggled with it defensively at the start of the season

We have far more options in central midfield and centre half now

 

[Mark_GT]

I think it's possible to have a flexible front 3. Those 3 are Hamilton out wide, Madine down the middle and then Yates as the flexible player playing between the position of out wide and getting in close to Madine. It's pretty much what was happening when all three were fit and in the side and we looked more of a goal threat than at any other time this season.

The thing with that line up is it gives power, pace and the element of the unknown. I'm sure we can work out which bit is which! I wish we had it back and firing on all cylinders now.

 

[Rektseasider]

No he doesn't - not for games played in that position. The question was, does he have worth on the left in a 442 and my original point was there aren't that many players who are doing it on the left in a 442 (or in my second analysis) any formation.

Again, I have only looked at the players performance in those games in which they played in those positions - initially at ML (as you question was 442) then inc AML

The site tracks where players play every game and afaics is pretty accurate.

I have included all those players, just only their performances at left midfield. As I say, there's very few players who have played many games at ML

Other players comfortably beat him but you're factoring in what they've done playing on the other wing as well I think. Which doesn't really answer the original question about playing him on the left in a 442.

In fact, Kaikai him self has started 1 game on the right in which he scored 1 goal.

You have to use the detailed view to filter by position actually played - it'll show you that say Mcgeady has 2 assists from ML and 10 from AML + ML. (Not sure if you found this feature, took me a while) and he's right up there in those tables as it will only show the stats from that positions. I.e it discounts Sullay's goal from the game he started on the right.

The shots is based in attempts I think as it's got Bez really high in shot count. Which seems accurate cos he shoots like a nutter. They just always get blocked. Demi the same.

Hope ye daughter is ok

.

She is better thanks.

Well I’m not sure how accurate that site is then, because I checked a few other places to see where other players have actually played in games. Leahy, Simms and MacDonald have all played games in a left mid position ( as well as others) but don’t feature in the computation when you specify just the left midfield position. I say this because they have goals and assists from those positions which arnt brought up. So not sure on that one.

 

[Rektseasider]

. For all the knockers, he's still one of the most effective players in the division and certainly in our squad.

I’m not a knocker. I’ve said repeatedly how good he could be. But we arn’t set up to really utilise him and as good as he is he isn’t that good to over come it, nor does he have a Yates like attitude to just make things happen.

I think TD was arguing that in the left midfield position he was one of the most effective, which I can see his point I just don’t think that site takes everything into account. And his ‘key passes’ are 2/3 free kicks. It’s an over inflation.

If you’re claiming he’s one of the most effective in the league full stop, that’s stretching it and actually just a bit wrong.

 

[Adams Kebab]

I'm liking the way people are using data sites to make their point on an obscure football forum

Dedication lads ...

I just work of memory

Data is great but I find your eyes are the best way to judge things.

We tried to be Liverpool at the start so the question should be would you play Mane and Salah wide in a pretty rigid 4-4-2?

That’s what we are doing with the League 1 versions.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

I’m not a knocker. I’ve said repeatedly how good he could be. But we arn’t set up to really utilise him and as good as he is he isn’t that good to over come it, nor does he have a Yates like attitude to just make things happen.

I think TD was arguing that in the left midfield position he was one of the most effective, which I can see his point I just don’t think that site takes everything into account. And his ‘key passes’ are 2/3 free kicks. It’s an over inflation.

If you’re claiming he’s one of the most effective in the league full stop, that’s stretching it and actually just a bit wrong.

Sorry but i disagree with your first paragraph

I'm not a stat man but going off memory from all the games I've watched this season, i would say Kaikai has 'over come' this strange role to him

He's scored winning goals, provided passes for penalties and created several other guilt edged chances that haven't been taken

Granted he would be better in a central role but you have been making out that he's been useless in a wide left role

And thats clearly wrong

 

[Rektseasider]

Sorry but i disagree with your first paragraph

I'm not a stat man but going off memory from all the games I've watched this season, i would say Kaikai has 'over come' this strange role to him

He's scored winning goals, provided passes for penalties and created several other guilt edged chances that haven't been taken

Granted he would be better in a central role but you have been making out that he's been useless in a wide left role

And thats clearly wrong

I mean I’m not really a ‘stat man’ I first brought up his basic goals and assists to say this isn’t that great. But to be fair TD spent a lot of time looking at some more detailed stuff. I was only able to have a look through the night with my daughter being ill, I’m not say all day looking at stats I spend too much time on here for that. I just disagreed with some things on the stats site.

it’s all getting a bit old now, I’m not sure how much more there is to add.

I don’t know Phil, on just the eye test alone he puts a guilt edge pass through, scores a goal or creates an assist at about 1 game in 3 where as the other two he can be a complete passenger and does very very little.

My original point was do you trigger that year option, not for me, but TD has made quiet a good argument that there’s actually not many players out there at this level consistently doing it on the left of a 4.

My argument would be, I could see Mitchell having a good impact for us playing out there if he had the same amount of game time as KK, it would be a different impact as he’s not as technically gifted but has more pace which I think we’d need in the 442.
Secondly, we have the financial muscle to now go and get one of the few players that performs well at that position. I just don’t think he’ll be here next year.

He’ll go and score a hat trick tonight now

 

[poolfc]

Data is great but I find your eyes are the best way to judge things.

We tried to be Liverpool at the start so the question should be would you play Mane and Salah wide in a pretty rigid 4-4-2?

That’s what we are doing with the League 1 versions.

I think if Liverpool did that then they'd put Mane wide left, Jota right and Firmino up top with Salah.

That's what they did against Sheff Utd on the same day we first dropped their usual formation copy at home against MK Dons. I laughed at the time as I thought Critchley had been on the phone to Klopp for inspiration as it wasn't working here and he was worried about MK overloading midfield. And they'd just lost Van Dijk which messed up their 4-1-2-3 high line.