Australia scraps French submarine contract

bfcpete said:
You would only get a fraction of a single nuclear sub for £110m. It will be billion, but it will probably be a 15 or 20 year programme
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To be fair i never mentioned submarines neither did the post i quoted, but I do take your point. What I was actually pointing out is that 110 billion is a ludicrous figure and theres no way bae have received an order for that value. To put it in context the Eurofighter production contract for the UK ran from 1997 till 2018 and only cost in the order of 20 billion. A quick Google tells me an astute submarine costs 1.4 billion, Australia have ordered 5. Which means if the figure is regarding submarines it is out by 103billion.
 
Lala said:
We don’t know who will thrive economically because of this yet. It’s supposition on both sides.
Either way it’s a deal and association that can’t do the U.K. any harm, even if the financial gains don’t have an initial or long term impact on the U.K.

Security is a massive concern internationally and it can’t harm us to be part of a multi national collaboration.
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I bet Putin and the Chinese are quietly chuckling in the background given the damage this could do to the NATO alliance.
 
The UK role in the alliance is very much in the mouse on the moon territory.
One does wonder with the vitriol of the original poster- is France considered an ally or an enemy?
 
catinstalbans said:
The UK role in the alliance is very much in the mouse on the moon territory.
One does wonder with the vitriol of the original poster- is France considered an ally or an enemy?
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It seems to me that Macron wants France to be an enemy, he’s constantly sniped at us since he was elected. The first thing he did, on his first day, was fly to Germany to meet mangala. From then on he’s tried to put us down and profit from anything he can at our expense, fishing in our waters for example. So he can hardly object because he lost a submarine contract.
 
SomersetSeasider said:
I bet Putin and the Chinese are quietly chuckling in the background given the damage this could do to the NATO alliance.
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I wouldn’t have thought they’d be so happy that Australia have upgraded their security inventory, quite considerably.

As for NATO, we will have to see if and what the long term damage is. Again, purely supposition at this juncture.
 
catinstalbans said:
The UK role in the alliance is very much in the mouse on the moon territory.
One does wonder with the vitriol of the original poster- is France considered an ally or an enemy?
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One does wonder at the vitriol of some responses if we consider our own country an enemy or ally 🤔
 
Tangojoe said:
There’s not much that annoys President Macron more than France losing a £43bn military contract, but losing it to the UK has apparently made him 'very bitter'. He's accused Australia of betrayal after it pulled out of its submarine supply agreement with France in order to forge closer ties with the UK and the US.

Together with the US the UK will now help Australia build nuclear-powered submarines instead of the relatively primitive diesel-powered vessels. These can stay submerged for longer, move faster and are almost undetectable when underwater.

In a statement, Macron complained that Australia’s decision is contrary to the letter and spirit of cooperation that prevailed between France and Australia. Michel Barnier added “This behaviour between allies is unacceptable”. French foreign affairs minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said the decision by Australia was a “stab in the back”. However, the Franco-Australian deal was already facing problems with increasing tensions between French shipbuilder Naval Group and Australia over rocketing costs and unwanted design changes.

Meanwhile, the UK has announced the new deal as one of its most significant collaborations in years, particularly for the North West of England, with BAE Systems in Barrow and other local suppliers expected to receive a massive boost to the economy and employment. Boris Johnson said that the AUKUS alliance will bring the UK, US and Australia closer together, creating a new defence partnership and driving jobs and prosperity.

Does anyone see the irony of the French President complaining about Australia failing to recognise the spirit of cooperation between the two countries. Not really his own strong point is it?

Anyway, I await posters' congratulations to Boris and his government for a spectacular result.
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Lala said:
I wouldn’t have thought they’d be so happy that Australia have upgraded their security inventory, quite considerably.

As for NATO, we will have to see if and what the long term damage is. Again, purely supposition at this juncture.
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The original contract was a rubbish deal for the AUS tax payer by Malcolm Turnbull….
The nuclear outcome is now positive for the Pacific region…( not so for the Kiwis )..
The only good thing to occur is that the French diplomats can leave AUS, which most of us can’t, as we continue have under passive house arrest, with the odd break, since April 2020..@ in NSW since end of June…
Enjoy the freedom….Nurse Gladys & Desperate Dan are guiding us to the new normal…
 
Balgowlahseasider said:
The original contract was a rubbish deal for the AUS tax payer by Malcolm Turnbull….
The nuclear outcome is now positive for the Pacific region…( not so for the Kiwis )..
The only good thing to occur is that the French diplomats can leave AUS, which most of us can’t, as we continue have under passive house arrest, with the odd break, since April 2020..@ in NSW since end of June…
Enjoy the freedom….Nurse Gladys & Desperate Dan are guiding us to the new normal…
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😩 hope you get some freedom and semblance of normality back soon 👍
 
A corrupt and criminal government of our own country is not something to take pride in, is it?
It would be great if we could be proud of our own government but ruled by Tories who take money from the poorest is absolutely something to be ashamed of.
 
Balgowlahseasider said:
The original contract was a rubbish deal for the AUS tax payer by Malcolm Turnbull….
The nuclear outcome is now positive for the Pacific region…( not so for the Kiwis )..
The only good thing to occur is that the French diplomats can leave AUS, which most of us can’t, as we continue have under passive house arrest, with the odd break, since April 2020..@ in NSW since end of June…
Enjoy the freedom….Nurse Gladys & Desperate Dan are guiding us to the new normal…
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It's great to hear from a Seasider on the other side of the world. The rules on the Politics board are that you can celebrate anything unfortunate that happens to the UK but don't dare mention anything positive.
 
Matesrates said:
It seems to me that Macron wants France to be an enemy, he’s constantly sniped at us since he was elected. The first thing he did, on his first day, was fly to Germany to meet mangala. From then on he’s tried to put us down and profit from anything he can at our expense, fishing in our waters for example. So he can hardly object because he lost a submarine contract.
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The contract had been agreed with Australia, who then cancelled it. As the exiting French Ambassador said, "I thought we were mates". The French Foreign Minister said cancelling contracts happens in business but allies don't do it.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
I think you know the answer to that Lala by the way that anything resembling a success for the UK is treated with contempt on here.
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It's not treated with contempt at all. There's been various claims made about our role in this deal and how much money the country will make with literally no evidence to back it up. Asking for the details in the small print is the least any reasonable person should do. If we are to benefit directly financially then that's great.
I also think some of you are on shaky ground because there seems to be an implication that criticism of this government is the same as hating our country. We've seen throughout history how that works
I despise this government and what it stands for and make zero apology for it. If that makes me a traitor or anti UK in the eyes of some on here then I can definitely live with that. Personally though, I think it's horseshit.
 
Brazil said:
The contract had been agreed with Australia, who then cancelled it. As the exiting French Ambassador said, "I thought we were mates". The French Foreign Minister said cancelling contracts happens in business but allies don't do it.
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We don’t know what stage the contract was at or what financial penalties Australia face due to cancellation it could have been at the end of a contractual phase with a natural termination point, one things for sure l doubt very much that they had committed to the production phase otherwise they would have a huge financial problem!
 
southshorepool said:
It's not treated with contempt at all. There's been various claims made about our role in this deal and how much money the country will make with literally no evidence to back it up. Asking for the details in the small print is the least any reasonable person should do. If we are to benefit directly financially then that's great.
I also think some of you are on shaky ground because there seems to be an implication that criticism of this government is the same as hating our country. We've seen throughout history how that works
I despise this government and what it stands for and make zero apology for it. If that makes me a traitor or anti UK in the eyes of some on here then I can definitely live with that. Personally though, I think it's horseshit.
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Spot on. When was questioning government policy, or even criticising the government of the day, outlawed?

But if it was then that must make the former PM Theresa May a traitor as well.
 
Never mind, we’ve pissed those Frenchies off, you know, our closest allies for the last 100 years, but Submarines eh, when Global Warming causes those raises in sea levels we can all jump aboard can’t we!
 
I've counted 11 posts with statements like "deriding the uk" "you must hate this country" and "you hate any success this country has". I've also read numerous childish posts and "frogs"
It's such a lazy and ill thought out point of view.
 
Brazil said:
The contract had been agreed with Australia, who then cancelled it. As the exiting French Ambassador said, "I thought we were mates". The French Foreign Minister said cancelling contracts happens in business but allies don't do it.
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Well he was wrong wasn’t he, because his allies did cancel it.
 
Blackpool had a great 2-1 win yesterday if some of you hadn't noticed. There again, some are more interested in peddling their messages of hate.
 
Shandypants said:
I've counted 11 posts with statements like "deriding the uk" "you must hate this country" and "you hate any success this country has". I've also read numerous childish posts and "frogs"
It's such a lazy and ill thought out point of view.
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Is it the cancel culture I keep reading about?
 
There are indeed some on here who would never accept the UKS achievements and that is incredibly sad and bewildering. Very pleased we will be helping our important allies Australia build nuclear powered submarines and the positive effect it will have on our economy.
 
Matesrates said:
It seems to me that Macron wants France to be an enemy, he’s constantly sniped at us since he was elected. The first thing he did, on his first day, was fly to Germany to meet mangala. From then on he’s tried to put us down and profit from anything he can at our expense, fishing in our waters for example. So he can hardly object because he lost a submarine contract.
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Who is mangala? The Valencia centre half?
 
Shandypants said:
I've counted 11 posts with statements like "deriding the uk" "you must hate this country" and "you hate any success this country has". I've also read numerous childish posts and "frogs"
It's such a lazy and ill thought out point of view.
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even if it's true. Care to refer me to any positive posts you or others have to say about the country?
 
20togo said:
even if it's true. Care to refer me to any positive posts you or others have to say about the country?
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Superb coastline, fantastic countryside, beautiful summers.
I'm just rewatching the utterly brilliant Ken Burns 10 part documentary on the Vietnam war. Interesting how Lyndon Johnson calls the anti war protestors as lefties, agitators, unpatriotic. History has shown the protestors to be right, being critical of your own government and questioning it at every turn is actually healthy in a functioning democracy.
 
catinstalbans said:
A corrupt and criminal government of our own country is not something to take pride in, is it?
It would be great if we could be proud of our own government but ruled by Tories who take money from the poorest is absolutely something to be ashamed of.
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And if we had your comrades in power we wouldn’t even have nuclear submarines let alone have a nuclear capability. 🤬
 
Shandypants said:
Superb coastline, fantastic countryside, beautiful summers.
I'm just rewatching the utterly brilliant Ken Burns 10 part documentary on the Vietnam war. Interesting how Lyndon Johnson calls the anti war protestors as lefties, agitators, unpatriotic. History has shown the protestors to be right, being critical of your own government and questioning it at every turn is actually healthy in a functioning democracy.
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after the horse has bolted, I'm afraid. I asked you to refer me to previous positive posts about our country. As for the rest of your post I agree that as a country we've got involved in too many overseas affairs including the biggest mistake of all by the Labour govt and Iraq. But wars is one thing, people like you and others look for every goddam thing to criticise the country about. And here's a fact too, neither you or Cat have made one single comment about Blackpools win yesterday. Why is that? You're so wrapped up in your politics of hatred that normal day life passes you by. After all, you did register on this forum because you are Blackpool fans did you not?
 
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Brazil said:
The contract had been agreed with Australia, who then cancelled it. As the exiting French Ambassador said, "I thought we were mates". The French Foreign Minister said cancelling contracts happens in business but allies don't do it.
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Sounds like a variation of the "EU solidarity" theme, something that only seems to apply when France or Germany wants something and quickly gets forgotton about whenever anyone else needs anything.
 
20togo said:
after the horse has bolted, I'm afraid. I asked you to refer me to previous positive posts about our country. As for the rest of your post I agree that as a country we've got involved in too many overseas affairs including the biggest mistake of all by the Labour govt and Iraq. But wars is one thing, people like you and others look for every goddam thing to criticise the country about. And here's a fact too, neither you or Cat have made one single comment about Blackpools win yesterday. Why is that? You're so wrapped up in your politics of hatred that normal day life passes you by. After all, you did register on this forum because you are Blackpool fans did you not?
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Firstly it's on record I'm not a blackpool fan, I have links with the town and have enjoyed the previous forum and this one. For me it's the best forum going. With regards to my point about the vietnam war, it wasn't about the principle of wars it was about being able to criticise the govt without being branded as unpatriotic. The phrase politics of hatred is a tad extreme, I see pretty mild criticism, which is being slammed down by the usual suspects.
 
Shandypants said:
Firstly it's on record I'm not a blackpool fan, I have links with the town and have enjoyed the previous forum and this one. For me it's the best forum going. With regards to my point about the vietnam war, it wasn't about the principle of wars it was about being able to criticise the govt without being branded as unpatriotic. The phrase politics of hatred is a tad extreme, I see pretty mild criticism, which is being slammed down by the usual suspects.
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but like I first said, refer me to your positive posts about the country. I dare say there must be some but I'd say that you much prefer to have a negative mindset and I'd suggests all your posts back my point up.
 
If we ever get a Labour government I often wonder if those on the left side of politics on this board would be so anti Britain they always try to see the negatives on everything.

We have a Labour Council they get some things right and some wrong but I would never talk down my fantastic town whatever descions they made however which way I voted.
 
Matesrates said:
Well he was wrong wasn’t he, because his allies did cancel it.
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But this contract wasn´t for trains. It´s about defence, and this is not a spat. It could be a rupture and have significant implaications for NATO. His allies did cancel it...so much for allies, then. That´s how the French feel.
 
Brazil said:
But this contract wasn´t for trains. It´s about defence, and this is not a spat. It could be a rupture and have significant implaications for NATO. His allies did cancel it...so much for allies, then. That´s how the French feel.
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Tough, that’s life
 
Lost Seasider said:
Sounds like a variation of the "EU solidarity" theme, something that only seems to apply when France or Germany wants something and quickly gets forgotton about whenever anyone else needs anything.
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Err, you forgot to mention NATO. Nowt to do with EU solidarity, whatever you mean by that.
 
Shandypants said:
I've counted 11 posts with statements like "deriding the uk" "you must hate this country" and "you hate any success this country has". I've also read numerous childish posts and "frogs"
It's such a lazy and ill thought out point of view.
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Just like your lazy, ill thought out one track rhetoric. You're the king of it.
 
poolseasider said:
If we ever get a Labour government I often wonder if those on the left side of politics on this board would be so anti Britain they always try to see the negatives on everything.

We have a Labour Council they get some things right and some wrong but I would never talk down my fantastic town whatever descions they made however which way I voted.
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Nail on the head poolseasider
 
Brazil said:
Err, you forgot to mention NATO.
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Australia is not a member of NATO, in fact for that matter France only returned to full membership in 2009, after more than 40 years.


Brazil said:
Nowt to do with EU solidarity, whatever you mean by that.
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Just an observation that France is quick to throw around words like "solidarity" "friendship" and "allies" when they don't get their own way but forgets the words very quickly when it suits them.


Brazil said:
As the exiting French Ambassador said, "I thought we were mates". The French Foreign Minister said cancelling contracts happens in business but allies don't do it.
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Are these the same allies that were happy to sell weapons to Argentina whilst we were fighting them?

Likewise is this same France that this year threatened to cut off power supplies to the Channel Islands, is turning a blind eye to hundreds of migrants a day trying to cross the channel illegally, and did it's utmost to make the entire Brexit process as difficult as possible.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Australia is not a member of NATO, in fact for that matter France only returned to full membership in 2009, after more than 40 years.




Just an observation that France is quick to throw around words like "solidarity" "friendship" and "allies" when they don't get their own way but forgets the words very quickly when it suits them.




Are these the same allies that were happy to sell weapons to Argentina whilst we were fighting them?

Likewise is this same France that this year threatened to cut off power supplies to the Channel Islands, is turning a blind eye to hundreds of migrants a day trying to cross the channel illegally, and did it's utmost to make the entire Brexit process as difficult as possible.
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Game Set and Match.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Australia is not a member of NATO, in fact for that matter France only returned to full membership in 2009, after more than 40 years.




Just an observation that France is quick to throw around words like "solidarity" "friendship" and "allies" when they don't get their own way but forgets the words very quickly when it suits them.




Are these the same allies that were happy to sell weapons to Argentina whilst we were fighting them?

Likewise is this same France that this year threatened to cut off power supplies to the Channel Islands, is turning a blind eye to hundreds of migrants a day trying to cross the channel illegally, and did it's utmost to make the entire Brexit process as difficult as possible.
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Just for the record, I´m not an advocate of the French. I was simply commenting on how they feel. Hypocrisy is rife in politics-and not just by the French.
 
Foolweary said:
To be fair i never mentioned submarines neither did the post i quoted, but I do take your point. What I was actually pointing out is that 110 billion is a ludicrous figure and theres no way bae have received an order for that value. To put it in context the Eurofighter production contract for the UK ran from 1997 till 2018 and only cost in the order of 20 billion. A quick Google tells me an astute submarine costs 1.4 billion, Australia have ordered 5. Which means if the figure is regarding submarines it is out by 103billion.
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Yes the reporting of figures seems really weird. I remember when this was first announced the French contract was reported to be worth about £70 billion, this week it’s down to £30 billion but I’ve also seen it reported £50 billion. Seems news agencies just don’t really know.
 
Matesrates said:
No it’s not, macron didn’t like losing, that’s all it is. The Australians decided the French subs were not up to it. It’ll blow over.
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The French could have supplied nuclear-powered subs( they have them) but the Australians ordered the conventional type, so you´re wrong there. What makes you think it´ll blow over, by the way?Maybe you know more than defence analysts, in which case I bow to your superior knowledge. This isn´t just about a contract.
 
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