Brexit, and taking back control

ElBurroSinNombre said:
I think that people are starting to realise that Brexit is a disaster for the UK. Conservative commentator Matthew Parris now;

https://twitter.com/x/status/1585599946535104513
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Parris the Remoaner who said in 2019 he was going to vote Lib Dem? Maybe you should back Ed Ravey's misfits as Labour and Sir Keith are now pro Brexit so no point you voting for them to get rid of that Brexit bee buzzing around in your head.🐝😂
 
Trammo said:
Parris the Remoaner who said in 2019 he was going to vote Lib Dem? Maybe you should back Ed Ravey's misfits as Labour and Sir Keith are now pro Brexit so no point you voting for them to get rid of that Brexit bee buzzing around in your head.🐝😂
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Saying they'll make the best of a shit show is not 'Pro Brexit'.
 
tommytwojags said:
Well you're half right at least. The UK is always looking for collaboration with the EU and the removal of trade and movement restrictions. The difference now seems to be that the EU is starting to concede that these things have to take place. It might have taken a worldwide recession, a global pandemic and a war to give them a more sensible and mature view of the situation but it looks like they are getting there slowly.
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That’s right!

I signed an agreement with Mr A in which Mr A said he’d deliver XY and Z.

Mr A didn’t deliver XY and Z and then I got cross.

But then Mr A explained that I was being inflexible and unreasonable. And that if I’d thought about it I’d have realised he was never going to be able to deliver XY and Z. And that it was also my fault.

I must admit I didn’t really get this at first. But eventually I saw sense. And decided that I’d finally have to “collaborate” with Mr A after all.

I’m soooooo grateful to Mr A for his foresight and wisdom.

However in the real world Mr A (aka Steve Baker) has apologised for being a bit of a knob and has indicated he might be prepared to stop being quite so much of a dickhead. And can we now start negotiating sensibly. Please.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
That’s right!

I signed an agreement with Mr A in which Mr A said he’d deliver XY and Z.

Mr A didn’t deliver XY and Z and then I got cross.

But then Mr A explained that I was being inflexible and unreasonable. And that if I’d thought about it I’d have realised he was never going to be able to deliver XY and Z. And that it was also my fault.

I must admit I didn’t really get this at first. But eventually I saw sense. And decided that I’d finally have to “collaborate” with Mr A after all.

I’m soooooo grateful to Mr A for his foresight and wisdom.

However in the real world Mr A (aka Steve Baker) has apologised for being a bit of a knob and has indicated he might be prepared to stop being quite so much of a dickhead. And can we now start negotiating sensibly. Please.
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Or more simply, Ireland have realised they are in the shit over cross-border trade and are now looking for a way out by siding with the UK in revisiting the terms of the NI Protocol. President Macron has realised that Germany is about to lead the EU in a direction France doesn't want to go in so he's looking to court the UK to help him out and at the same time annoy 'the Boche'. Germany's economy is on the verge of imploding so it's scraping about for support from Italy or anyone else who might back it against France.

Meanwhile, the UK isn't all that bothered about the EU's in-fighting, but is watching developments with interest and might be prepared to pick and choose anything that could be to its benefit.
 
Trammo said:
Parris the Remoaner who said in 2019 he was going to vote Lib Dem? Maybe you should back Ed Ravey's misfits as Labour and Sir Keith are now pro Brexit so no point you voting for them to get rid of that Brexit bee buzzing around in your head.🐝😂
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Take off your Brexray glasses !
 
tommytwojags said:
Or more simply, Ireland have realised they are in the shit over cross-border trade and are now looking for a way out by siding with the UK in revisiting the terms of the NI Protocol. President Macron has realised that Germany is about to lead the EU in a direction France doesn't want to go in so he's looking to court the UK to help him out and at the same time annoy 'the Boche'. Germany's economy is on the verge of imploding so it's scraping about for support from Italy or anyone else who might back it against France.

Meanwhile, the UK isn't all that bothered about the EU's in-fighting, but is watching developments with interest and might be prepared to pick and choose anything that could be to its benefit.
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That sounds like a fantasy world. Afraid its us that have the big problems. Pick and choose , dont think so. We signed out of free access to a 500 million person market. Boche ? Are you still into the First World War ?
 
We’ve left now and there's no going back, but l stand by what I’ve said many times before in that the majority of people voted to leave to get back control of our borders based on Merkel allowing millions of refugees to flood into Germany in 2015, and now look at the ** mess were in with all these economical migrants flooding in by boat!
 
Can’t believe people still defend this monumental shit show.

It’s not really lived up to the hype, has it?
 
Always tangerine said:
That sounds like a fantasy world. Afraid its us that have the big problems. Pick and choose , dont think so. We signed out of free access to a 500 million person market. Boche ? Are you still into the First World War ?
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Sorry if the facts don't find your approval. I can pretend they're inaccurate if it makes you feel better.
 
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tommytwojags said:
Or more simply, Ireland have realised they are in the shit over cross-border trade and are now looking for a way out by siding with the UK in revisiting the terms of the NI Protocol. President Macron has realised that Germany is about to lead the EU in a direction France doesn't want to go in so he's looking to court the UK to help him out and at the same time annoy 'the Boche'. Germany's economy is on the verge of imploding so it's scraping about for support from Italy or anyone else who might back it against France.

Meanwhile, the UK isn't all that bothered about the EU's in-fighting, but is watching developments with interest and might be prepared to pick and choose anything that could be to its benefit.
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So in short.

Ireland’s in the shit.

Germany’s economy is about to implode.

And France is plotting to take over the EU.

Meanwhile the U.K. is sitting pretty and the events of the last couple of months (where we were the laughing stock of the world) never happened and we can pick and choose whatever we want (have our cake and eat it). Trade deal with the US is there for the taking. Trade deal with India? I don’t mind if I do.

Righto. 👍

It must be lovely living on Planet Two Jags.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So in short.

Ireland’s in the shit.

Germany’s economy is about to implode.

And France is plotting to take over the EU.

Meanwhile the U.K. is sitting pretty and the events of the last couple of months (where we were the laughing stock of the world) never happened and we can pick and choose whatever we want (have our cake and eat it). Trade deal with the US is there for the taking. Trade deal with India? I don’t mind if I do.

Righto. 👍

It must be lovely living on Planet Two Jags.
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I suppose it helps if you take your world view from about 1918.

Although to read that bollocks is strangely reminiscent of the Leave Campaign from 2016.
 
tommytwojags said:
Or more simply, Ireland have realised they are in the shit over cross-border trade and are now looking for a way out by siding with the UK in revisiting the terms of the NI Protocol. President Macron has realised that Germany is about to lead the EU in a direction France doesn't want to go in so he's looking to court the UK to help him out and at the same time annoy 'the Boche'. Germany's economy is on the verge of imploding so it's scraping about for support from Italy or anyone else who might back it against France.

Meanwhile, the UK isn't all that bothered about the EU's in-fighting, but is watching developments with interest and might be prepared to pick and choose anything that could be to its benefit.
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Oh my goodness, it's been over a year

Geert wilders will win in Holland the EU IS TOAST
le pen will be French president the EU IS TOAST
There's a refendum in Italy the EU IS TOAST
There's another referendum in Italy the EU IS TOAST
AFD will be in power in Germany the EU IS TOAST
Merkel is dieing of Parkinson's the EU IS TOAST
We've got more vaccines than you, the EU IS TOAST
NEXIT is March 2021, the EU IS TOAST

And now you've given us

Ireland is fûcked, Germany is broke and France can't be trusted, the EU IS TOAST.

It's amazing how you goons keep fantasising that the EU can't possibly continue without the UK, while our government makes us look like a banana Republic.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
So in short.

1. Ireland’s in the shit.

2. Germany’s economy is about to implode.

3. And France is plotting to take over the EU.

4. Meanwhile the U.K. is sitting pretty and the events of the last couple of months (where we were the laughing stock of the world) never happened and we can pick and choose whatever we want (have our cake and eat it). Trade deal with the US is there for the taking. Trade deal with India? I don’t mind if I do.

Righto. 👍

It must be lovely living on Planet Two Jags.
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1. Go and turn the tv on and see how much Ireland is in the shit. Northern Ireland has no workable functioning Executive and can't create one. The Republic's Taoiseach says the war in Ukraine has put the need to fix the NI Protocol into context. This follows Leo Varadkar's admission that the Protocol was "too strict" and needed reform to help make it sustainable. That doesn't mean the EC will compromise, but since Ireland now wants to be flexible concerning its own border, any continued inflexibility by Maros Sefcovic can only mean the EC doesn't have any will to settle the issue.

2. I'll save you having to check this one by repeating that this month Germany's PMI has dropped to its lowest level since the covid outbreak because of high energy prices. Manufacturing output declined at the highest rate since 2019 and services also shrank the most for 3 years. New business registrations fell by the most since May 2020. Input and output cost inflation rates remained well above historical series average and businesses remained deeply pessimistic towards the year ahead outlook for activity, due to soaring energy costs, high inflation, rising interest rates, and the prospect of recession. (Source: Germany Purchase Manufacturing Index)

3. The current friction between France and Germany over policies, defence, energy and other issues is common knowledge. Macron and Scholz are at each others' throats and according to the Research Director at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) they can't agree on anything as they fight for the balance of power in the EU.

4. The UK will decide how it prefers to proceed in the fallout of the EU's power struggle.

This is all very basic Europolitics. Facts not opinions

​

 
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Foolweary said:
Oh my goodness, it's been over a year

Geert wilders will win in Holland the EU IS TOAST
le pen will be French president the EU IS TOAST
There's a refendum in Italy the EU IS TOAST
There's another referendum in Italy the EU IS TOAST
AFD will be in power in Germany the EU IS TOAST
Merkel is dieing of Parkinson's the EU IS TOAST
We've got more vaccines than you, the EU IS TOAST
NEXIT is March 2021, the EU IS TOAST

And now you've given us

Ireland is fûcked, Germany is broke and France can't be trusted, the EU IS TOAST.

It's amazing how you goons keep fantasising that the EU can't possibly continue without the UK, while our government makes us look like a banana Republic.
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You seem to be obsessed with food. Nobody here has suggested the EU can't continue without the UK, but you crack on.
 
tommytwojags said:
1. Go and turn the tv on and see how much Ireland is in the shit. Northern Ireland has no workable functioning Executive and can't create one. The Republic's Taoiseach says the war in Ukraine has put the need to fix the NI Protocol into context. This follows Leo Varadkar's admission that the Protocol was "too strict" and needed reform to help make it sustainable. That doesn't mean the EC will compromise, but since Ireland now wants to be flexible concerning its own border, any continued inflexibility by Maros Sefcovic can only mean the EC doesn't have any will to settle the issue.

2. I'll save you having to check this one by repeating that this month Germany's PMI has dropped to its lowest level since the covid outbreak because of high energy prices. Manufacturing output declined at the highest rate since 2019 and services also shrank the most for 3 years. New business registrations fell by the most since May 2020. Input and output cost inflation rates remained well above historical series average and businesses remained deeply pessimistic towards the year ahead outlook for activity, due to soaring energy costs, high inflation, rising interest rates, and the prospect of recession. (Source: Germany Purchase Manufacturing Index)

3. The current friction between France and Germany over policies, defence, energy and other issues is common knowledge. Macron and Scholz are at each others' throats and according to the Research Director at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) they can't agree on anything as they fight for the balance of power in the EU.

4. The UK will decide how it prefers to proceed in the fallout of the EU's power struggle.

This is all very basic Europolitics. Facts not opinions

​

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1. NI is part of the U.K. so by your own measure it’s the U.K. that’s in the shit; not the Republic.

2. Nobody is arguing that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine hasn’t had a detrimental effect on economies across the world, including Germany. What’s caused people to raise their eyebrows is your assertion that the German economy is about to “implode” whereas (thanks to Brexit) the U.K. is apparently immune and riding a wave. Inflation? What inflation? Interest and mortgage rate rises? What rises? Cost of living crisis? What crisis? Recession? What recession? Self imposed trade barriers with the EU? What barriers?

3. Friction between members of the EU is nothing new. In fact the EU and its institions are there to manage that friction and to find solutions. It’s perfectly normal and is not an indication to EU is about to collapse as you’re inferring.

4. As the markets demonstrated recently the U.K. does not have a completely free hand in deciding how it proceeds. Similarly the U.K. always has one eye on Washington and how it might react to our policy decisions, especially where the NI protocol is concerned. There are very real limits on our sovereignty even after leaving the EU. In fact it could easily be argued that it’s more restricted now than it was when we were a member.
 
TangerineBayern said:
We’ve left now and there's no going back, but l stand by what I’ve said many times before in that the majority of people voted to leave to get back control of our borders based on Merkel allowing millions of refugees to flood into Germany in 2015, and now look at the ** mess were in with all these economical migrants flooding in by boat!
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So you voted leave because Merkel allowed 1m refugees into Germany? What's the connection between the two, I'm genuinely interested and secondly do you believe any refugees should come to the west particularly as we were bombing the shit out of Syria at the time. There is a very moving and difficult documentary called For Sama I'd recommend watching it to develop a bit of empathy.
 
tommytwojags said:
Well you're half right at least. The UK is always looking for collaboration with the EU and the removal of trade and movement restrictions. The difference now seems to be that the EU is starting to concede that these things have to take place. It might have taken a worldwide recession, a global pandemic and a war to give them a more sensible and mature view of the situation but it looks like they are getting there slowly.
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Are you really daft enough to be a champion of Brexit and say that?

Just admit it, you were hoodwinked, you got conned, you swallowed the lies and now you're trying to find a way out of the mess without eating humble pie and without looking a fool.

Well it isn't gonna work, we've listened to your nonsense for 7 years, we are not going to forget who created this mess.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
1. NI is part of the U.K. so by your own measure it’s the U.K. that’s in the shit; not the Republic.

2. Nobody is arguing that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine hasn’t had a detrimental effect on economies across the world, including Germany. What’s caused people to raise their eyebrows is your assertion that the German economy is about to “implode” whereas (thanks to Brexit) the U.K. is apparently immune and riding a wave. Inflation? What inflation? Interest and mortgage rate rises? What rises? Cost of living crisis? What crisis? Recession? What recession? Self imposed trade barriers with the EU? What barriers?

3. Friction between members of the EU is nothing new. In fact the EU and its institions are there to manage that friction and to find solutions. It’s perfectly normal and is not an indication to EU is about to collapse as you’re inferring.

4. As the markets demonstrated recently the U.K. does not have a completely free hand in deciding how it proceeds. Similarly the U.K. always has one eye on Washington and how it might react to our policy decisions, especially where the NI protocol is concerned. There are very real limits on our sovereignty even after leaving the EU. In fact it could easily be argued that it’s more restricted now than it was when we were a member.
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First of all, well done for discussing the issues instead of just throwing insults around like some on here. My take on this is

1. The immediate and serious effect of the Irish dispute is on Northern Ireland. However, the implication of non-resolution is likely to be the unilateral partial removal of the Protocol and the implementation of new rules by the UK affecting both sides of the border.

2. I think we all agree that Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has had a detrimental effect on economies across the world. I'm merely quoting the report by Germany's S&P Global Composite PMI on the country's manufacturing and service sectors and their own pessimistic prediction of negative year-ahead outlook, due to soaring energy costs, high inflation, rising interest rates, and the prospect of recession. Nobody is suggesting that the UK's outlook is significantly brighter. Germany is especially hamstrung by its reliance on Russian gas and the microchip shortage affecting the automotive industry, but we all have our problems. I only raised the Germany issue in response to the post at #75 stating that the UK's vehicle production output had fallen, as if we were somehow the only country affected by the global crises.

3. Of course friction between EU members is nothing new although it is undoubtedly at its highest ever level. However, I have never once suggested that the EU is about to collapse. I'm certain it is not. I'm also fairly certain that the Eurozone will not survive in the longer term. What we have at the moment is a power battle of the two major countries with contrasting policies, particularly on energy and defence, and completely different views of how the EU should develop. My comments have related to the interesting change in approach by France towards the UK for the clear purpose of earning this country's backing. There are no alternative explanations for Macron attempting to involve the UK in his initiatives such as the European Political Community and the Prague summit to which the UK was cordially invited other than to butter us up and to irritate Germany.

4. I can't argue that the UK has a completely free hand in deciding how it proceeds. We all know from recent developments that the markets determine what we can and cannot do fiscally, although procedurally we have pretty much the right to determine our future. I am absolutely convinced though that in due course the UK/EU hostilities are going to take their rightful place in world politics, which is nowhere. Recent comments from EU leaders make it very clear that pandemics, war, economic blights, supply problems etc have put brexit very much in the background where it belongs. That means the UK will take its place in the world order where it should be and that in due course trade with the EU will continue pretty much as it always did, once agreement is reached on primary governing law, procedures, documentation. All this is on the presumption that the Russian psychopath is not going to destroy the planet first.
 
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I can only talk of my own experience of Brexit. My import costs have doubled - this has to be passed onto customers so products have become more expensive!
 
Foolweary said:
Are you really daft enough to be a champion of Brexit and say that?

Just admit it, you were hoodwinked, you got conned, you swallowed the lies and now you're trying to find a way out of the mess without eating humble pie and without looking a fool.

Well it isn't gonna work, we've listened to your nonsense for 7 years, we are not going to forget who created this mess.
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Pipe down. The one's who 'created the mess' are those who negotiated the current agreement (and this can be changed much like new treaties are created). The entire agreement is a sham and could have been a) written better and b) actually taken on board what many were calling for.

Personally, I campaigned for the UK to renegotiate it's relationship with Europe staring in the mid-90s. Our relationship with Europe should be based on trade with collaboration in other areas (crime for example). The problem has always been rigidness of the European treaties, much like many classical constitutions. If we turn back now it's full membership (sterling disappears etc) or nothing unless there are wholesale changes to way the current EU operates. We're willing to talk.
 
OneStepBeyond said:
Pipe down. The one's who 'created the mess' are those who negotiated the current agreement (and this can be changed much like new treaties are created). The entire agreement is a sham and could have been a) written better and b) actually taken on board what many were calling for.

Personally, I campaigned for the UK to renegotiate it's relationship with Europe staring in the mid-90s. Our relationship with Europe should be based on trade with collaboration in other areas (crime for example). The problem has always been rigidness of the European treaties, much like many classical constitutions. If we turn back now it's full membership (sterling disappears etc) or nothing unless there are wholesale changes to way the current EU operates. We're willing to talk.
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There isn't a version of Brexit that's better than what we had. There's no negotiated outcome that improves our living standard without free trade and FoM.

We had membership+++ and the brexit goons threw it away, dont bemoan the fact any future negotiations can't be better than parity with the other nations.

We are clearly going to have to wait until a generation after the referendum to ensure that those living in the past have died off otherwise suffer their stubborn pride and refusal to admit they were conned. Probably another 8 years till that can start.
 
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Foolweary said:
There isn't a version of Brexit that's better than what we had. There's no negotiated outcome that improves our living standard without free trade and FoM.

We had membership+++ and the brexit goons threw it away, dont bemoan the fact any future negotiations can't be better than parity with the other nations.

We are clearly going to have to wait until a generation after the referendum to ensure that those living in the past have died off otherwise suffer their stubborn pride and refusal to admit they were conned. Probably another 8 years till that can start.
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It's not about a "better version", it's not about getting one over another nation. This isn't a competition.

It's about two entities coming together and creating a relationship that suits both sides.

New treaties have been written as things evolve within Europe and trading arrangements with other nations outside of the EU have been written that suit both sides.

This is not and will not be a case of "you're either in the EU or not".
 
OneStepBeyond said:
It's not about a "better version", it's not about getting one over another nation. This isn't a competition.

It's about two entities coming together and creating a relationship that suits both sides.

New treaties have been written as things evolve within Europe and trading arrangements with other nations outside of the EU have been written that suit both sides.

This is not and will not be a case of "you're either in the EU or not".
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Hold on a minute, the leave campaign was based on a "better version" "sunlit uplands" "no downsides" funny how things change.
 
Shandypants said:
Hold on a minute, the leave campaign was based on a "better version" "sunlit uplands" "no downsides" funny how things change.
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Nah, you're making assumptions that every person that voted leave swallowed the Farage kool-aid. In the same way I didn't assume you wanted to shag Juncker in 2016.

This isn't a cartoon World. There is context and nuance.

We are taking about a shocking agreement which needs changing. If you truly believed the previous agreement with the EU was satisfactory then that's your lookout and I can't help you.
 
OneStepBeyond said:
Nah, you're making assumptions that every person that voted leave swallowed the Farage kool-aid. In the same way I didn't assume you wanted to shag Juncker in 2016.

This isn't a cartoon World. There is context and nuance.

We are taking about a shocking agreement which needs changing. If you truly believed the previous agreement with the EU was satisfactory then that's your lookout and I can't help you.
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Dont think hes looking for help !
 
OneStepBeyond said:
Nah, you're making assumptions that every person that voted leave swallowed the Farage kool-aid. In the same way I didn't assume you wanted to shag Juncker in 2016.

This isn't a cartoon World. There is context and nuance.

We are taking about a shocking agreement which needs changing. If you truly believed the previous agreement with the EU was satisfactory then that's your lookout and I can't help you.
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It wasn't an arrangement, we were one of the big 3 and a major force. If you couldn't see that I can't help you. The shocking agreement was this government's choice as the ERG balloons came to the fore, it was a cartoon world full of slogans "get brexit done" "350m per week to the NHS"
I'm still waiting for ONE single tangible benefit to brexit...........
 
Trammo said:
Parris the Remoaner who said in 2019 he was going to vote Lib Dem? Maybe you should back Ed Ravey's misfits as Labour and Sir Keith are now pro Brexit so no point you voting for them to get rid of that Brexit bee buzzing around in your head.🐝😂
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You're hanging on by your fingernails on Brexit.

Get real.
 
Shandypants said:
It wasn't an arrangement, we were one of the big 3 and a major force. If you couldn't see that I can't help you. The shocking agreement was this government's choice as the ERG balloons came to the fore, it was a cartoon world full of slogans "get brexit done" "350m per week to the NHS"
I'm still waiting for ONE single tangible benefit to brexit...........
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You seem to have a penchant for soundbites and a complete lack of understanding of our previous relationship with the EU and countries in Europe. We have not ever been a full member and there are many many reasons for that.

Do you know why EEC was set up in the first place? Have a little think...

Also, repeating the very lines I've used back at me? Bit weird.
+++

It's been over 6 years since the referendum and you are unable to debate what our relationship with Europe should look like. Again, that's your lookout. The rest of us are moving on. It's not good for your mindset (or heart no doubt).

Just like with several nations around the World the EU has agreements with it is not a case of full membership or nothing. You can trade and collaborate in specific areas. This is what I campaigned for.

If you want to live and breathe the EU move to France.
 
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