Brexit, and taking back control

Trammo said:
Hardly when an ex Norway government minister interviewed by the BBC strongly recommended NOT to do the Norway option and rubbished the deal.
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That quote was from an anti EU Norwegian politician and irrelevant, as is she. It would be all but impossible for anyone to oppose EFTA (which the UK created) and from there to the EEA. This would need to be a long term commitment with no possibility of full membership for at least two decades. Its called compromise.
 
bill40 said:
That quote was from an anti EU Norwegian politician and irrelevant, as is she. It would be all but impossible for anyone to oppose EFTA (which the UK created) and from there to the EEA. This would need to be a long term commitment with no possibility of full membership for at least two decades. Its called compromise.
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I think it's very likely.
Sooner or later a PM will want a 5% boost to the economy at no risk that would also solve the shortage of labour.
If it's not Sunak (probably not), it will be someone else - it's madness to erect trade barriers with our neighbours.
 
As I said on another thread...

If Sunak survives a year I reckon that, despite being a Brexiteer, he will put the wheels in motion to rejoin the EU customs union and the single market. Simply because it will be economically obvious to him. To be determined based upon a General Election result, of course. But he will remove a differentiator that the Labour party manifesto could have.

And it is the only sensible way out of the NI Protocol in the EU Withdrawal Agreement and the Northern Ireland border problem, by removing Bozo's current customs border down the middle of the Irish Sea. Which will continue to be hugely problematical with regard to the Good Friday Agreement, causing added division between Loyalists and Republicans.
 
Archibald Knox said:
As I said on another thread...

If Sunak survives a year I reckon that, despite being a Brexiteer, he will put the wheels in motion to rejoin the EU customs union and the single market. Simply because it will be economically obvious to him. To be determined based upon a General Election result, of course. But he will remove a differentiator that the Labour party manifesto could have.

And it is the only sensible way out of the NI Protocol in the EU Withdrawal Agreement and the Northern Ireland border problem, by removing Bozo's current customs border down the middle of the Irish Sea. Which will continue to be hugely problematical with regard to the Good Friday Agreement, causing added division between Loyalists and Republicans.
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Strangely, it would also put a trade deal with the Biden's US administration back on the table as the GFA would be back on track.
It's a no brainer and the business community are starting to complain about the current madness as well.
 
Shandypants said:
The thing that really struck a chord on the documentary was the fact the no main stream political party advocated the brexit we ended up with, it was the policy of ukip only. Will of the people? No
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Will of the people “ No”….how does that work when the voting majority said “ Yes”.
For the record as I have said many a time I voted to stay but in was a touch and go decision and it’s time to move on.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Strangely, it would also put a trade deal with the Biden's US administration back on the table as the GFA would be back on track.
It's a no brainer and the business community are starting to complain about the current madness as well.
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I think Sunak is a pragmatist, and the pragmatic point of view for him is to get the 5% economic boost.
bleach51 said:
Will of the people “ No”….how does that work when the voting majority said “ Yes”.
For the record as I have said many a time I voted to stay but in was a touch and go decision and it’s time to move on.
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A majority of "the people" didnt vote for brexit it was around 27%. Pragmatics say join the customs union - resolve some of the wholly unnecessary economic problems, get some decent news to report and push for the next GE.
 
Costero Poderoso said:
I think Sunak is a pragmatist, and the pragmatic point of view for him is to get the 5% economic boost.

A majority of "the people" didnt vote for brexit it was around 27%. Pragmatics say join the customs union - resolve some of the wholly unnecessary economic problems, get some decent news to report and push for the next GE.
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27% of what.
For the record
No.of eligible UK voters ( 2021 admittedly but very much doubt it would be significantly different in 2016) 46,560,452
Votes cast
Leave 17,410,742
Stay 16,141,241
Voided 25,359
Total votes 33,577,342

There are statistics and….


By the way of course I want a good trading and everything else for that relationship with Europe.
 
bleach51 said:
27% of what.
For the record
No.of eligible UK voters ( 2021 admittedly but very much doubt it would be significantly different in 2016) 46,560,452
Votes cast
Leave 17,410,742
Stay 16,141,241
Voided 25,359
Total votes 33,577,342

There are statistics and….


By the way of course I want a good trading and everything else for that relationship with Europe.
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population (the people) 66 million give or take,

registered voters 46 million give or take

brexit yes votes 17.5 million (27% of the people) (38% of registered voters)
 
Costero Poderoso said:
population (the people) 66 million give or take,

registered voters 46 million give or take

brexit yes votes 17.5 million (27% of the people) (38% of registered voters)
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….so babies and nursery and junior school and etc etc can vote….get real ……and on your basis less registered voters voted to stay so why not re do your own maths.
This is a ridiculous argument,perhaps by both of us,but the vote was for out end Of.
….and that is my final comment ( well nearly) ….oh In case you had noticed we won a Derby Match on Saturday which for the present time supersedes everything else
 
bleach51 said:
Will of the people “ No”….how does that work when the voting majority said “ Yes”.
For the record as I have said many a time I voted to stay but in was a touch and go decision and it’s time to move on.
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The vote was firstly based on false information and secondly there wasn't a mainstream political party that supported the brexit we ended up with. Watch the documentary its very interesting.
 
bleach51 said:
….so babies and nursery and junior school and etc etc can vote….get real ……and on your basis less registered voters voted to stay so why not re do your own maths.
This is a ridiculous argument,perhaps by both of us,but the vote was for out end Of.
….and that is my final comment ( well nearly) ….oh In case you had noticed we won a Derby Match on Saturday which for the present time supersedes everything else
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its not a ridiculous argument but it is a somewhat pedantic one, if you are going to talk about people then have to give it consideration that 17.5 million people will affect the futures of those babies and schoolkids.
 
Shandypants said:
The vote was firstly based on false information and secondly there wasn't a mainstream political party that supported the brexit we ended up with. Watch the documentary its very interesting.
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Bit late…and if all people you recommend it ..then definitely not.

Bye….except a question when was the last game you bothered to attend?
 
bleach51 said:
Bit late…and if all people you recommend it ..then definitely not.

Bye….except a question when was the last game you bothered to attend?
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I'm not a blackpool fan, I've said it many times. Not sure why people get so arsey on this side when it's titled politics etc. You clearly didn't watch it or did and realise it doesn't align with your views. Bye....
 
bleach51 said:
27% of what.
For the record
No.of eligible UK voters ( 2021 admittedly but very much doubt it would be significantly different in 2016) 46,560,452
Votes cast
Leave 17,410,742
Stay 16,141,241
Voided 25,359
Total votes 33,577,342

There are statistics and….


By the way of course I want a good trading and everything else for that relationship with Europe.
Click to expand...

If we join the single market we will not be in the EU just inside the free trade zone.
This satisfies the Brexit referendum No vote and is also a pragmatic solution that does not bankrupt our economy. What we have at the moment is a disaster for Britain.
I do feel more optimistic now that we have an adult as PM - albeit a right wing adult.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
If we join the single market we will not be in the EU just inside the free trade zone.
This satisfies the Brexit referendum No vote and is also a pragmatic solution that does not bankrupt our economy. What we have at the moment is a disaster for Britain.
I do feel more optimistic now that we have an adult as PM - albeit a right wing adult.
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No if about it we won’t be joining the single market even if Sir Keith Clueless flukes a GE win in 2024. So dream on.
 
bleach51 said:
So if you are not a Blackpool fan then why the xxxx are you on a Blackpool fan website( which incidentally was set up to discuss football related matters until some decided to hijack that concept) ..oh perhaps because nobody elsewhere wants to read your incessant political biased driven crap.
Just xxxx xxx off to somewhere else where you might,though I doubt it, be appreciated.
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I have historical links with Blackpool and I like football, so I naturally gravitated to this site. I enjoy it, its the best football forum going. Not sure why you feel the need to write abuse, it's not something I choose to do. I'm entitled to an opinion without it being branded as incessant political biased crap, that's not debating a subject is it? Perhaps you should reflect that before your next line "if you don't like it leave' or something equally original.
 
Shandypants said:
I have historical links with Blackpool and I like football, so I naturally gravitated to this site. I enjoy it, its the best football forum going. Not sure why you feel the need to write abuse, it's not something I choose to do. I'm entitled to an opinion without it being branded as incessant political biased crap, that's not debating a subject is it? Perhaps you should reflect that before your next line "if you don't like it leave' or something equally original.
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Historical Links…I have plenty of them to Stockport( both parents born and grew up and married there) where I have also lived since 1977 but I don’t go on their fans football website, though i do look out for their results and am pleased they are back in the Football League.
But yes it is constant biased political crap from you and never remotely balanced …and regrettably sometimes I pick up a thread that is non football that is politically related….but don’t worry I will try to avoid them wherever I can in future.
To be honest this site has become far more politically orientated than football related these days so perhaps it’s time to log off for a while.
 
bleach51 said:
Historical Links…I have plenty of them to Stockport( both parents born and grew up and married there) where I have also lived since 1977 but I don’t go on their fans football website, though i do look out for their results and am pleased they are back in the Football League.
But yes it is constant biased political crap from you and never remotely balanced …and regrettably sometimes I pick up a thread that is non football that is politically related….but don’t worry I will try to avoid them wherever I can in future.
To be honest this site has become far more politically orientated than football related these days so perhaps it’s time to log off for a while.
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Fair enough, I would disagree that I'm biased or not balanced in my views. I would agree that I'm disgusted in the govt and the leave vote but I do try to argue my point fairly so I'm baffled with your aggressive stance on the matter. I take it you're happy with the govt and the line of direction this country has gone? That's your perogative, I don't agree but I'm not going to get personal about you as an individual.
 
Wizaard said:
There are at least 6 regular Preston fans posting. Should they be banned?

Isolationism has brought this country onto its knees already. Let's not match up.
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I'm definitely not a Preston fan 🤣
I can't fathom why people think you shouldn't be allowed if you don't support a club, after all it's the Internet not a private members club.
 
Archibald Knox said:
As I said on another thread...

If Sunak survives a year I reckon that, despite being a Brexiteer, he will put the wheels in motion to rejoin the EU customs union and the single market. Simply because it will be economically obvious to him. To be determined based upon a General Election result, of course. But he will remove a differentiator that the Labour party manifesto could have.

And it is the only sensible way out of the NI Protocol in the EU Withdrawal Agreement and the Northern Ireland border problem, by removing Bozo's current customs border down the middle of the Irish Sea. Which will continue to be hugely problematical with regard to the Good Friday Agreement, causing added division between Loyalists and Republicans.
Click to expand...

There will be a closer trading relationship between the UK and the EU, but it will be nothing to do with us joining the EU customs union. It will be because EU member states relax or remove the obstacles presently in place to restrict cross-border trade. Already, Irish leaders are acknowledging the difficulties currently imposed on UK/Irish trade and it looks increasingly like they are prepared to put forward a compromise in the new year contrary to the Commission's current hard line.

The real solution will be the streamlining of agreements between the UK and EU which accept the status and origin of UK goods moving to mainland Europe and allow for the smooth transition of imports and exports, as well as similar agreements on the movement of individuals, sharing of information and trade assistance. There is no will on the part of the majority of member states to block trade with the UK and at some point in the not too distant future the EC will accept that the UK is not an enemy and that there is no reason to maintain restrictions on the movement of goods and services from the UK.
 
tommytwojags said:
The real solution will be new streamlined agreements between the UK and EU which accept the status and origin of UK goods moving to mainland Europe and allow for the smooth transition of imports and exports, as well as similar agreements on the movement of individuals, sharing of information and trade assistance. There is no will on the part of the majority of member states to block trade with the UK and at some point in the not too distant future the EC will accept that the UK is not an enemy and that there is no reason to maintain restrictions on the movement of goods and services from the UK.
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This sounds exactly like joining the European FTA
 
tommytwojags said:
There will be a closer trading relationship between the UK and the EU, but it will be nothing to do with us joining the EU customs union. It will be because EU member states relax or remove the obstacles presently in place to restrict cross-border trade. Already, Irish leaders are acknowledging the difficulties currently imposed on UK/Irish trade and it looks increasingly like they are prepared to put forward a compromise in the new year contrary to the Commission's current hard line.

The real solution will be the streamlining of agreements between the UK and EU which accept the status and origin of UK goods moving to mainland Europe and allow for the smooth transition of imports and exports, as well as similar agreements on the movement of individuals, sharing of information and trade assistance. There is no will on the part of the majority of member states to block trade with the UK and at some point in the not too distant future the EC will accept that the UK is not an enemy and that there is no reason to maintain restrictions on the movement of goods and services from the UK.
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Blimey.

It’s almost as if the ardent Brexiters are beginning to weaken.

And looking for an accommodation with the EU.

Frankly at this stage any accommodation will do.

Even to extent of accepting “agreements on the movement of individuals”.

Of course that won’t be free movement. And it certainly won’t be “immigration”!!! Cos Suella won’t allow “immigration”!!!

Instead it’s just a common sense acceptance that the U.K. needs foreign workers.

And also needs to work with mainland Europe.
 
Kurtan said:
Car manufacturing in the uk since 2016 has, let’s say somewhat declined
https://twitter.com/x/status/1585509346561216512
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Not sure what point you are making. If you're trying to show that UK manufacturing is having a difficult time you might be interested to know that every other country is in a similar position, many a lot worse. Here’s a quick snapshot of Purchase Manufacturing Indexes in Germany which track business trends across both the manufacturing and service sectors.

"The S&P Global Composite PMI in Germany declined further to 44.1 in October 2022, down from 45.7 in the previous month and well below market expectations of 45.3, a preliminary estimate showed. It was the lowest reading since the initial COVID-19 shutdowns in early-2020, as high energy prices hit both business costs and demand. The rate of contraction in manufacturing output accelerated notably to the quickest for nearly two-and-half years, while services activity shrank the most in 29 months. New business fell by the most since May 2020, leading to a sustained decline in backlogs of work. Meanwhile, the rate of job creation ticked up slightly as firms continued to fill vacancies. On the price front, input and output cost inflation rates remained well above its historical series average. Finally, businesses remained deeply pessimistic towards the year-ahead outlook for activity, due to soaring energy costs, high inflation, rising interest rates, and the prospect of recession."

1666902763520.png
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Blimey.

It’s almost as if the ardent Brexiters are beginning to weaken.
And looking for an accommodation with the EU.
Frankly at this stage any accommodation will do.
Even to extent of accepting “agreements on the movement of individuals”.
Of course that won’t be free movement. And it certainly won’t be “immigration”!!! Cos Suella won’t allow “immigration”!!!
Instead it’s just a common sense acceptance that the U.K. needs foreign workers.
And also needs to work with mainland Europe.
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Well you're half right at least. The UK is always looking for collaboration with the EU and the removal of trade and movement restrictions. The difference now seems to be that the EU is starting to concede that these things have to take place. It might have taken a worldwide recession, a global pandemic and a war to give them a more sensible and mature view of the situation but it looks like they are getting there slowly.
 
tommytwojags said:
Well you're half right at least. The UK is always looking for collaboration with the EU and the removal of trade and movement restrictions. The difference now seems to be that the EU is starting to concede that these things have to take place. It might have taken a worldwide recession, a global pandemic and a war to give them a more sensible and mature view of the situation but it looks like they are getting there slowly.
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To summarise the UK is always looking to collaborate with the EU but those intransigent jonny foreigners are now seeing the light due to global issues 🤣🤣🤣 FFS I've read some bollocks on here 🤣🤣🤣 how many twists can brexiteers put on the "they need us more than we need them"
 
Shandypants said:
To summarise the UK is always looking to collaborate with the EU but those intransigent jonny foreigners are now seeing the light due to global issues 🤣🤣🤣 FFS I've read some bollocks on here 🤣🤣🤣 how many twists can brexiteers put on the "they need us more than we need them"
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What part do you need explaining. Is it the acknowledgement by the Irish ministers that the Protocol, which was previously unmoveable, might now be a little inflexible and in need of change. Or maybe it's the French President, who has expressed his wish to work more closely with the UK since the developments in Eastern Europe have changed the priorities of France?
 
tommytwojags said:
What part do you need explaining. Is it the acknowledgement by the Irish ministers that the Protocol, which was previously unmoveable, might now be a little inflexible and in need of change. Or maybe it's the French President, who has expressed his wish to work more closely with the UK since the developments in Eastern Europe have changed the priorities of France?
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Yes crawling to us, no doubt at the behest of the German car makers.
 
tommytwojags said:
There will be a closer trading relationship between the UK and the EU, but it will be nothing to do with us joining the EU customs union. It will be because EU member states relax or remove the obstacles presently in place to restrict cross-border trade. Already, Irish leaders are acknowledging the difficulties currently imposed on UK/Irish trade and it looks increasingly like they are prepared to put forward a compromise in the new year contrary to the Commission's current hard line.

The real solution will be the streamlining of agreements between the UK and EU which accept the status and origin of UK goods moving to mainland Europe and allow for the smooth transition of imports and exports, as well as similar agreements on the movement of individuals, sharing of information and trade assistance. There is no will on the part of the majority of member states to block trade with the UK and at some point in the not too distant future the EC will accept that the UK is not an enemy and that there is no reason to maintain restrictions on the movement of goods and services from the UK.
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Those 'obstructions' are what were in place when we were in the EU but didn't apply to us. What makes you think they'll relax the rules and from their perspective, why should they?

If they do that for us, then every other nation will ask for the same.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
If we join the single market we will not be in the EU just inside the free trade zone.
This satisfies the Brexit referendum No vote and is also a pragmatic solution that does not bankrupt our economy. What we have at the moment is a disaster for Britain.
I do feel more optimistic now that we have an adult as PM - albeit a right wing adult.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being in the single market come with free movement of labour as a condition?
 
Lost Seasider said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being in the single market come with free movement of labour as a condition?
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As we have a labour shortage, as seen in agriculture and hospitality, is that a bad thing? Additional tax revenue from a young, healthy demographic, so all income from a Government perspective.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't being in the single market come with free movement of labour as a condition?
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Given the state of our front-line services, free movement of labour would be a boon to us, not a problem. In fact, we might be able to get all those foreign migrant workers back, who were propping up the NHS and our care homes before Brexit.

52% of the people who voted in that referendum fell for a lot of scare stories and false promises and / or voted out of fear and ignorance. I'm sure the vast majority of them genuinely thought they were doing the right thing, but all the evidence suggests that it was a catastrophic piece of self-harm that future generations will pay a very high price for.

A period of reflection from the politicians who egged them on would be very welcome - instead of which we have the likes of Baker, Redwood and Francois clinging on to whatever sheds of credibility and influence they still have left. I would love to see the centre-left of the Conservative Party put the country first and help bring this Government down. Purging their Party of this malign growth that has overtaken it would be the best possible contribution that they could ever make to the quality of our political discourse and performance.
 
Wizaard said:
Those 'obstructions' are what were in place when we were in the EU but didn't apply to us. What makes you think they'll relax the rules and from their perspective, why should they? If they do that for us, then every other nation will ask for the same.
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In short, Ireland has to start looking at matters pragmatically as the power sharing governance of NI continues to be blocked and the only likely remedy is a review or change of heart by the EU, which the Republic seems now prepared to back.

With regard to France, their problem is with Germany as there is a massive power struggle between those two countries concerning defence, energy and other matters. Previously, the Franco-German alliance remained strong against the UK in the Brexit negotiations. However, the deterioration of relations between the two has pushed France towards the UK and has contributed to French initiatives such as the European Political Community and the Prague summit to which the UK was invited, primarily for the purpose of annoying the Germans who insist the UK cannot be part of summit meetings.

According to the Research Director at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) Germany and France are struggling to agree on anything as they fight for the balance of power in the EU. He said the two linked up well during the Brexit negotiations, but now they regret it because "they kind of imposed the terms of settlement on the UK" and now France is trying to undo part of that and that is a serious point of tension between Macron and Scholz, even to the extent of the two leaders postponing their Fontainebleau meeting as they fail to agree on matters of energy and defence. So the French tried to team up with the Italians, but the Germans were then happy when the Draghi government disappeared because they were worried that France and Italy would start creating finance and Eurozone policies over their heads.

Bottom line is that the strict rules that France was so keen to impose on the UK are not now so popular as France seeks to win the favour of the UK in its power struggle with Germany. Basically, that is why they will relax the rules.
 
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RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
On to it's knees? Oh dear 😆
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So you think it's all going well? The last few weeks have made this country a worldwide laughing stock, with world leaders publicly bemused at what's going on, wrecked our economy, massive uncertainty on fuel prices with the u turn on support and potentially forced millions out of the housing market.

Glad you find it amusing.
 
tommytwojags said:
In short, Ireland has to start looking at matters pragmatically as the power sharing governance of NI continues to be blocked and the only likely remedy is a review or change of heart by the EU, which the Republic seems now prepared to back.

With regard to France, their problem is with Germany as there is a massive power struggle between those two countries concerning defence, energy and other matters. Previously, the Franco-German alliance remained strong against the UK in the Brexit negotiations. However, the deterioration of relations between the two have pushed France towards the UK and have contributed to French initiatives such as the European Political Community and the Prague summit to which the UK was invited, primarily for the purpose of annoying the Germans, who insist the UK cannot be part of summit meetings.

According to the Research Director at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP) Germany and France are struggling to agree on anything as they fight for the balance of power in the EU. He said the two linked up well during the Brexit negotiations, but now they regret it because "they kind of imposed the terms of settlement on the UK" and now France is trying to undo part of that and that is a serious point of tension between Macron and Scholz, even to the extent of the two leaders postponing their Fontainebleau meeting as they fail to agree on matters of energy and defence. So the French tried to team up with the Italians, but the Germans were then happy when the Draghi government disappeared because they were worried that France and Italy would start creating finance and Eurozone policies over their heads.

Bottom line is that the strict rules that France was so keen to impose on the UK are not now so popular as France seeks to win the favour of the UK in its power struggle with Germany. Basically, that is why they will relax the rules.
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Yeah, but read this board and we hate the French😉
 
Wizaard said:
So you think it's all going well? The last few weeks have made this country a worldwide laughing stock, with world leaders publicly bemused at what's going on, wrecked our economy, massive uncertainty on fuel prices with the u turn on support and potentially forced millions out of the housing market.

Glad you find it amusing.
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I find your remark amusing. That's obvious so don't try and twist my post round.
No I don't think things are going well at all. This year I've visited France, Spain, Canada and just recently Italy.
Things aren't going too well in those countries either, but again that doesn't suit your agenda.
Do I think the government have made mistakes? Absolutely. And plenty of them.
But do I think the UK is on it's knees? Absolutely not. Despite you obviously wishing it were.
And I have made allowances for your gross exaggerations, for which you have plenty of form
 
Free movement of people... migrant workers... OR ... could it be way of the wealthy EU countries taking advantage of poor EU countries cheap labour?
 
Newholland said:
Free movement of people... migrant workers... OR ... could it be way of the wealthy EU countries taking advantage of poor EU countries cheap labour?
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Or people doing jobs that no one here wants to do, like veg picking in midwinter?

Tim Martin can't understand why he can't get anyone to do his hospitality jobs. Seems obvious to me.
 
Wizaard said:
Or people doing jobs that no one here wants to do, like veg picking in midwinter?

Tim Martin can't understand why he can't get anyone to do his hospitality jobs. Seems obvious to me.
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Agreed👍Because the education system in this country looks upon such essential ( as we found out during Covid) jobs in a demeaning manor... instead of encouraging and paying decent money to said jobs!!
 
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