Brian Clough or Pep Guardiola

B

Born tangerine

Well-known member
Just read a brilliant article on Pep on his ideas on coaching, tactics, and man management skills.
All the big clubs in the world today try and buy the best players to achieve their success and fail, as well, but with PB being an exception.
Enter Brian Clough in my thoughts and this guy won everything except the FA cup in his time.
A man whose teams played beautiful football, his man mangement skills, and his strict disciplinary ways, won him umpteen top honours in the world of football.

Somebody once told me when Roy Keane played for forest he was never booked in over 100 games for them.
Two top managers who have graced football.
 
to misquote ol' big 'ead, i'd say cloughie is in the top 1. pep is the outstanding manager of his generation and i think cloughie would've loved him too.

pep is brilliant, like clough, at getting the very best out of his men, maximising their potential. he's also very charismatic as well and you can see why players want to play for managers like brian and pep.

tbh, as football lovers, we're just lucky to have been in the same orbit as them.
 
Born tangerine said:
Just read a brilliant article on Pep on his ideas on coaching, tactics, and man management skills.
All the big clubs in the world today try and buy the best players to achieve their success and fail, as well, but with PB being an exception.
Enter Brian Clough in my thoughts and this guy won everything except the FA cup in his time.
A man whose teams played beautiful football, his man mangement skills, and his strict disciplinary ways, won him umpteen top honours in the world of football.

Somebody once told me when Roy Keane played for forest he was never booked in over 100 games for them.
Two top managers who have graced football.
Click to expand...
out of interest, where was the article btw?
 
eatmygoal said:
to misquote ol' big 'ead, i'd say cloughie is in the top 1. pep is the outstanding manager of his generation and i think cloughie would've loved him too.

pep is brilliant, like clough, at getting the very best out of his men, maximising their potential. he's also very charismatic as well and you can see why players want to play for managers like brian and pep.

tbh, as football lovers, we're just lucky to have been in the same orbit as them.
Click to expand...
Having a bbq at ours and was talking to my youngest about Cloughie earlier this afternoon.
His quote is....."I wouldn't say I was the best manager but I'm in the top 1"
🤣🤣🤣

Both Clough and Pep both great managers of their era👍🏻
 
EMG the article was on the BBC sport football page under the title.

Manchester City: 'Hysterical and 'hated at times' - Pep Guardiola is the greatest.​

Different eras of course but Cloughie record stands up with the best of them and beyond. I reckon he could have walked water.
 
Clough took Derby to the semi final of the European Cup and was recognised as being robbed due to a dodgy ref he then too Notts Forest to two European Cups. It's not even close, the achievements of Clough were remarkable. I doubt many could do that but I'm sure there would be a few who could emulate Pep. I'm nor knocking him, tactically he's great but Cryff was the inspiration there.
 
Clough was of his time and focussed on man management. Not a criticism but tactics weren't as crucial back then.

Pep however has completely changed the way football is played and his teams are an absolute joy to watch.
 
Guardiola has spent over a billion pounds on his Man City team. It's like playing Football Manager with a cheat code of an unlimited transfer budget, doing well and being called a great at the game for doing so.

As a comparison, Jurgen Klopp's net spend is around a third of Guardiola whilst at Liverpool. They've won the Premier League and Champions League in that time, despite City having spent triple the amount. I would imagine that is a much tougher ask.
 
Seaseaseasider said:
Guardiola has spent over a billion pounds on his Man City team. It's like playing Football Manager with a cheat code of an unlimited transfer budget, doing well and being called a great at the game for doing so.

As a comparison, Jurgen Klopp's net spend is around a third of Guardiola whilst at Liverpool. They've won the Premier League and Champions League in that time, despite City having spent triple the amount. I would imagine that is a much tougher ask.
Click to expand...
I'd 100% rather have Klopp here than Pep. I reckon Klopp could get almost anyone playing. Pep would just be baffled by inferior beings.
 
td53 said:
I'd 100% rather have Klopp here than Pep. I reckon Klopp could get almost anyone playing. Pep would just be baffled by inferior beings.
Click to expand...
I totally agree. Klopp has worked his way up and won things despite money not being in his favour at Dortmund and Liverpool. Pep can't say the same. He's only ever won with the
team that should win.

I think I could have won La Liga with that Barca team, the Bundesliga with that Bayern team or the Premier League with that City team. 😂
 
Seaside shuffle said:
Guardiola buys success, Clough moulded, built and cajoled success.
There simply is no comparison. I'd love to see Guardiola go to a League 2 side with a minimal budget and see how he got on.
Click to expand...
so Clough didn't spend a million quid on one of the very first million pound players then? It's crass to think that Guardiola hasn't moulded players into a team and his way of playing. Aguero being a prime example. And Guardiola has totally changed the face of football in this country and how teams play. Guardiola has been much more innovative with shaping how the game is both played in this country and across the rest of the world. Paisley won more at Liverpool than Clough too. Some on here seemingly wanting to re-write history and their age is showing when failing to be anything but derisory about a great football manager.
 
Last edited:
20togo said:
two totally different eras so ridiculous to compare. Football is a global game now. You could even make a good case for Paisley being a better manager than Clough.
Click to expand...
Beat me to it. Felt pretty annoyed with this speculation that Pep is the greatest manager in the history of football. He has to keep producing at this level for a few more years, and even then, he had it with massive funding. The Liverpool Boot Room built a success story and developed players without spending the equivalent of millions. Paisley 's record was utterly phenomenal , following Shanks and followed by Joe Fagan, oh and some bloke called Dalgleish.

Don't get me wrong, Pep is very good, but come back in 10 years and tell us what he's achieved.
 
td53 said:
I'd 100% rather have Klopp here than Pep. I reckon Klopp could get almost anyone playing. Pep would just be baffled by inferior beings.
Click to expand...
Yep, he really got Liverpool playing this season didn't he? Didn't even make the Champions League which for Liverpool is pretty poor going.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Beat me to it. Felt pretty annoyed with this speculation that Pep is the greatest manager in the history of football. He has to keep producing at this level for a few more years, and even then, he had it with massive funding. The Liverpool Boot Room built a success story and developed players without spending the equivalent of millions. Paisley 's record was utterly phenomenal , following Shanks and followed by Joe Fagan, oh and some bloke called Dalgleish.

Don't get me wrong, Pep is very good, but come back in 10 years and tell us what he's achieved.
Click to expand...
I think it fair to say he's already achieved a great deal. And at three clubs in three different countries too.
 
Football is evolving, the influence of foreign players and managers coming to this country has changed the way we coach and develop youngsters.
Gone are the days when an 8 year old child is stood in a full size goal 8ft x 24ft having shots flying over their head and losing
16 - 1.
IMO the game has changed for the better in many respects., however the corruption within the game is no different to how it was when the nobbers became the invincibles.
 
Born tangerine said:
20s- Bob Paisley's record is up there with the best of them but he stepped into Bill Shankly shoes and nothing changed.
Brian Clough had to build 2 sides from scratch to achieve his status.
Only my opinion
Click to expand...
....and how many times did Alex Ferguson rebuild his United team but he's yet to get a mention in this thread. I just sense there is so much bias against teams and players which means a lack of objectivity when it comes to discussing their merits.
 
20togo said:
I think it fair to say he's already achieved a great deal. And at three clubs in three different countries too.
Click to expand...
At Barca he was gifted the greatest talents the world has seen. Clearly you have to manage that talent, Bayern is a shoe in for success and at City he does have funds the likes if Neil Warnock could only dream off. The question for me is could Pep manage the likes of Brentford or QPR and make them successful, I'm not sure.
 
Shandypants said:
At Barca he was gifted the greatest talents the world has seen. Clearly you have to manage that talent, Bayern is a shoe in for success and at City he does have funds the likes if Neil Warnock could only dream off. The question for me is could Pep manage the likes of Brentford or QPR and make them successful, I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
so you don't think he could make Blackpool players better than they are then? It's a ridiculous argument really. He was appointed Barca's manager after success with Barca B so it must have been recognised by those people that count that he had something in him to make him a great manager. And so it has proven.

Who do you support btw?
 
Like the manager's today Alex Ferguson spent more money than anyone else on players in his day and paid big wages to them.
The class of 92 were a group of young players who graced the club who AF knew he could rely on and managed them superbly.
 
It is impossible to compare people from totally different eras because everything changes over time.
How would Ali compare to Mike Tyson? How would Tyson compare to Tyson Fury?
How would George Best compare to Maradonna? How would Maradonna compare to Pele?
The list is endless.
 
20togo said:
so you don't think he could make Blackpool players better than they are then? It's a ridiculous argument really. He was appointed Barca's manager after success with Barca B so it must have been recognised by those people that count that he had something in him to make him a great manager. And so it has proven.

Who do you support btw?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure he could make average players better. He's never had to deal with average players so it's an unknown. What does it matter who I support? I'm an armchair fan at best, I like watching football
 
20togo said:
so Clough didn't spend a million quid on one of the very first million pound players then?
Click to expand...
That’s an interesting question and conundrum. When signing Trevor Francis, Brian Clough insisted that the transfer fee in the contract was to be £999,999 so as not to saddle Francis with being “the first £1million player”. Then, in the press conference he handed the Brum chairman an extra £1 out of his own pocket, so he could have it both ways! Terrific. It’s somewhere on YouTube.
 
Clough's style of management wouldn't wash with multimillionaire footballers nowadays. Imagine Pep telling Ederson he had to turn out for his son's Sunday Football team, like Clough did with Crissley.
Equally nobody else could have taken clubs like Forest and Derby to the heights they achieved.
Management like players are of their time and it's pointless trying to compare them.
Final point, Stones looks world class in his new Pep inspired position. Anyone see Southgate playing him in the same role ?
 
rememberlesshannon said:
Clough's style of management wouldn't wash with multimillionaire footballers nowadays. Imagine Pep telling Ederson he had to turn out for his son's Sunday Football team, like Clough did with Crissley.
Equally nobody else could have taken clubs like Forest and Derby to the heights they achieved.
Management like players are of their time and it's pointless trying to compare them.
Final point, Stones looks world class in his new Pep inspired position. Anyone see Southgate playing him in the same role ?
Click to expand...
already been mentioned Nige, We are too short in quality central defenders for Southgate to really give Stones a chance to play there for England. Certainly against the better teams anyway, where his importance as a central defender is more vital.
 
20togo said:
already been mentioned Nige, We are too short in quality central defenders for Southgate to really give Stones a chance to play there for England. Certainly against the better teams anyway, where his importance as a central defender is more
Click to expand...
Pete, if we trusted in younger players like Guehi and Tomori ( not sure about spellings) we maybe could.
Instead we hold back players like Stones back to keep Maguire in the England team, despite his lack of game time.
 
rememberlesshannon said:
Clough's style of management wouldn't wash with multimillionaire footballers nowadays. Imagine Pep telling Ederson he had to turn out for his son's Sunday Football team, like Clough did with Crissley.
Equally nobody else could have taken clubs like Forest and Derby to the heights they achieved.
Management like players are of their time and it's pointless trying to compare them.
Final point, Stones looks world class in his new Pep inspired position. Anyone see Southgate playing him in the same role ?
Click to expand...
Agree with this Clough was of a different era but an incredible man-manager who turned ordinary players into extraordinary teams on more than one occasion. I was fortunate enough to see a Forest team managed by Clough take on an Ipswich team managed by Bobby Robson. First half, Ipswich dominated the game with Arnold Muhren and Frans Thijssen different class and it was thanks to Peter Shilton that they restricted them to a 0-1 half-time lead.

I don't know what Clough said at half-time but I have never seen a team or a game so totally transformed. They ran out 2-1 winners with Trevor Francis and John Robertson dismantling the Ipswich defence. Clough always kept things simple and played 4-4-2 but he ruled with an iron fist. They were also very disciplined and rarely showed dissent to the ref and Clough never blamed referees or made excuses. It is often overlooked but Peter Taylor also played a big part in their success and when they split I don't think Clough was ever quite the same force.
 
20togo said:
Yep, he really got Liverpool playing this season didn't he? Didn't even make the Champions League which for Liverpool is pretty poor going.
Click to expand...
Poor for Liverpool because of what? Their history or their net spend?

In the last five years Liverpool have a net spend less than Man United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Tottenham, Aston Villa and Wolves. Yet Klopp has won the Premier League and Champions League.
 
rememberlesshannon said:
Pete, if we trusted in younger players like Guehi and Tomori ( not sure about spellings) we maybe could.
Instead we hold back players like Stones back to keep Maguire in the England team, despite his lack of game time.
Click to expand...
yep, fair point. Maguire generally hasn't let England down and that's why Southgate keeps faith in him. Tomori has been around for a few years now but he seems to keep getting overlooked. Guehi is pretty new to the EPL only really coming to the for this season.
 
Seaseaseasider said:
Poor for Liverpool because of what? Their history or their net spend?

In the last five years Liverpool have a net spend less than Man United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Newcastle, Tottenham, Aston Villa and Wolves. Yet Klopp has won the Premier League and Champions League.
Click to expand...
my point was that Liverpool by their standards have just had a poor season. That's irrespective of their net spend. Their wouldn't have been a scouser, a Liverpool player or their manager who didn't think or isn't disappointed that they only came fifth this season and didn't qualify for the Champions League. That can't be said of Pep. As i said, remove all bias or dislike of any team, look at it objectively from purely a football pov and Pep and City are an outstanding team and manager. And the stats will show you that no matter how great a manager Klopp is and he is, Pep has surpassed him. Comfortably.
 
20togo said:
my point was that Liverpool by their standards have just had a poor season. That's irrespective of their net spend. Their wouldn't have been a scouser, a Liverpool player or their manager who didn't think or isn't disappointed that they only came fifth this season and didn't qualify for the Champions League. That can't be said of Pep. As i said, remove all bias or dislike of any team, look at it objectively from purely a football pov and Pep and City are an outstanding team and manager. And the stats will show you that no matter how great a manager Klopp is and he is, Pep has surpassed him. Comfortably.
Click to expand...
Depends on what criteria you use to judge. Available budget? Ability to turn round a struggling under achieving club? Coaching ability? Man management? Trophies won? Attractive football? Quality of opposition?
There's too many factors to take in to account to judge, so it comes down to personal opinion.
So my own personal opinion is that Clough is the best manager to have graced the game in this country. Followed by SAF and Paisley. I couldn't really split those two.
Guardiola is undoubtedly a great manager but I'll reserve judgement on him until the results of the charges are known.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
Depends on what criteria you use to judge. Available budget? Ability to turn round a struggling under achieving club? Coaching ability? Man management? Trophies won? Attractive football? Quality of opposition?
There's too many factors to take in to account to judge, so it comes down to personal opinion.
So my own personal opinion is that Clough is the best manager to have graced the game in this country. Followed by SAF and Paisley. I couldn't really split those two.
Guardiola is undoubtedly a great manager but I'll reserve judgement on him until the results of the charges are known.
Click to expand...
jeez,I can't make it any clearer. I said in the post you replied to that it was irrespective of their net spend. I'm basing it purely on what they've done over the last five or six seasons. Being a Liverpool fan you just can't seem to admit that by their standards coming fifth and not winning a trophy was a poor season. I say it again, that every Liverpool player, Klopp and all their fans would have expected better. Why? Because that's the high standards they set themselves. That won't be just my personal opinion then, it will be theirs as well. Liverpool have been a fantastic football team these last few years so last season was disappointing for them.

All the managers you name are truly grat managers but my first point on this thread is that managers belong in different eras and the game of football now has changed on so mnay levels so it really isn't right to compare. They will all stand the test of time. There always seems to be a case for harking back to days of yore to think that everything and everyone was so much better when we were young. And that really is a nonsense as it's like saying tthe best can only be when we were of a certain age and nothing now can come as close. The record books suggest otherwise. And I'm not just talking about managers.
 
one more point. You should reserve your judgement for Man City for those running the club. Guardiola is there simply to get his team playing football. And go on then, I'll repeat this point. No-one and I repeat no-one has done more to shape how the game is now played in this country than Guardiola. He's revolutionised football with his methods which has rubbed off all the way down to grass roots football.

I could understand you accusing me of bias if you knew I was a City fan but you know I'm not. I'm simply recognising Guardiola for what he's done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top