Energy costs

When will everyone realise on here that the vast majority of politicians on all sides are simply not fit for purpose.

For me it’s no longer an argument between left and right as nobody I have (or very few) seen are capable of delivering anything - It’s just whatever the latest sound bite is that they think might win a few votes.

Most the people we get to vote for are generally rubbish!!

…and god help us with Truss v Starmer - it’s enough to make you emigrate!!!
 
Wizaard said:
So why are the French freezing prices despite importing far more Russian gas than us?

Why are the Norwegians covering 90% of energy bills for their citizens?

There is simply no will by this lot because energy companies are big donors for them, hence the talk of scrapping environmental levies.
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The French are freezing prices because their energy is nationlised, they pay the same wholesale price as anyone else. Read posts #13 and 31.
 
seasideone said:
When will everyone realise on here that the vast majority of politicians on all sides are simply not fit for purpose.

For me it’s no longer an argument between left and right as nobody I have (or very few) seen are capable of delivering anything - It’s just whatever the latest sound bite is that they think might win a few votes.

Most the people we get to vote for are generally rubbish!!

…and god help us with Truss v Starmer - it’s enough to make you emigrate!!!
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👏👏👏👏👏👏
 
Goforgoal said:
The French are freezing prices because their energy is nationlised, they pay the same wholesale price as anyone else. Read posts #13 and 31.
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Ofgem have the power as regulators to set a price cap. Setting it at 81% in the middle of a cost of living crisis is pandering to big business, specifically the energy companies. The regulator has abrogated his responsibility.
 
Wizaard said:
Ofgem have the power as regulators to set a price cap. Setting it at 81% in the middle of a cost of living crisis is pandering to big business, specifically the energy companies. The regulator has abrogated his responsibility.
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Ofgem, as with all the so called regulators, are a waste of time and money. Having said that, the so called price cap is a total misnomer. The £3500 they have just set is an average price pa paid by the consumer, there is no limit on the size of your bill. The actual cap is the price per unit, so the more units you use the more you will pay. It’s actually conning the more less informed customer into thinking £3500 is the most they will pay. If you use £10,000 worth that’s how much you will pay. As I said earlier I’m not defending the government, but nor do I think Labour would fare any better, they had 13 years to change the system and failed to do so.
 
Wizaard said:
Ofgem have the power as regulators to set a price cap. Setting it at 81% in the middle of a cost of living crisis is pandering to big business, specifically the energy companies. The regulator has abrogated his responsibility.
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It’s not ‘pandering to the energy companies’ … It would be impossible for the energy supply companies to soak up the cost of supplying energy at such a huge loss.

The price cap itself is aimed at the wrong businesses in any case.


Ultimately the businesses who are benefitting from this are those who own the gas resource itself.. And maybe a range of electricity producers who haven’t got the gas cost to consider.

They’re the ones making the mega profits…
 
Goforgoal said:
This has been caused by a worldwide energy crisis, but of course that’s the Torys fault. Up until June we imported 5% of our gas from Russia, not none. The cost is out of any governmental control, it’s the world energy market which is out of control. If you have a solution I’m sure many governments around the world would be only to happy for you to inform them what it is.
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France seem to have a solution, so stop pretending there are no alternatives. The energy companies are bankrupt, stop wasting tax payers money bailing out failing businesses. nationalise and start again. Where in the Capitalist manifesto does it expect state support? The banks were necessary to keep finance circulating, energy companies have got it wrong. Tough, that's free market. Or are all you Free market Tories hypocrites?
 
Tangerinemoss said:
France seem to have a solution, so stop pretending there are no alternatives. The energy companies are bankrupt, stop wasting tax payers money bailing out failing businesses. nationalise and start again. Where in the Capitalist manifesto does it expect state support? The banks were necessary to keep finance circulating, energy companies have got it wrong. Tough, that's free market. Or are all you Free market Tories hypocrites?
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It’s not a magic solution though.. The French taxpayer is still picking up the bill… It’s just an accounting trick really.

And the Energy Supply companies are mostly bankrupt because of Government Policy, as opposed to the free market, which targeted a price cap at the wrong businesses.

Ultimately it’s the gas producers and sone electricity producers who are running off with big bags of swag, whilst others pay the price.
 
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Tangerinemoss said:
France seem to have a solution, so stop pretending there are no alternatives. The energy companies are bankrupt, stop wasting tax payers money bailing out failing businesses. nationalise and start again. Where in the Capitalist manifesto does it expect state support? The banks were necessary to keep finance circulating, energy companies have got it wrong. Tough, that's free market. Or are all you Free market Tories hypocrites?
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As previously stated Labour had 13 years to change the system. Not only did they not do anything, what they did do was remove Clause 4 which required them to pursue and enact nationalisation of public services. Blair and his cronies were just as conservative as Thatcher, so don’t just keep bashing the Tories. As I said in an earlier post none of them have the welfare of the common people at heart.
 
It’s also important to note that France is really not a good comparison. The overwhelming majority of their electricity requirements are produced from Nuclear, with a further chunk being other forms of renewable energy.

So in terms of electricity production, they’re not really exposed to the impact of Russian Gas prices to the same extent as other countries.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
If you think that's hard right you're even more clueless than I give you credit for
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It is hard right and shows how far right the Overton Window has moved. Take that prize plank Jeremy Hunt once upon a time he was a right wing nutter now he's considered moderate.
 
Wizaard said:
So why are the French freezing prices despite importing far more Russian gas than us?

Why are the Norwegians covering 90% of energy bills for their citizens?

There is simply no will by this lot because energy companies are big donors for them, hence the talk of scrapping environmental levies.
Click to expand...
As per other post..

France have limited the increase in electricity prices and gas makes up a much smaller part of the electricity generation mix.

Norway are a massive gas producer and exporter.
 
I don't understand why consumers are being given any help at all this is market failure on a vast scale. It is the energy providers who should be bailed out being bailed out funded by state loans and windfall taxes on the blatantly profiteering energy producers. We could then freeze the cap at say £1500 which is historically high. The problem is not temporary it will take at least 2-3 years to wash through.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s not a magic solution though.. The French taxpayer is still picking up the bill… It’s just an accounting trick really.

And the Energy Supply companies are mostly bankrupt because of Government Policy, as opposed to the free market, which targeted a price cap at the wrong businesses.

Ultimately it’s the gas producers and sone electricity producers who are running off with big bags of swag, whilst others pay the price.
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It's not quite an accounting trick. The burden is falling on the state, not the individual. Yes, it will be recouped via taxation, cutbacks and other means, but it's not the individual who has to find the funds to pay the energy bill.
 
Tangerine Tractor said:
It's not quite an accounting trick. The burden is falling on the state, not the individual. Yes, it will be recouped via taxation, cutbacks and other means, but it's not the individual who has to find the funds to pay the energy bill.
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And what is the State, if not just a collective of individual people?

Like I’ve already said, France is in a different position to the U.K. in any case.
 
Goforgoal said:
Ofgem, as with all the so called regulators, are a waste of time and money. Having said that, the so called price cap is a total misnomer. The £3500 they have just set is an average price pa paid by the consumer, there is no limit on the size of your bill. The actual cap is the price per unit, so the more units you use the more you will pay. It’s actually conning the more less informed customer into thinking £3500 is the most they will pay. If you use £10,000 worth that’s how much you will pay. As I said earlier I’m not defending the government, but nor do I think Labour would fare any better, they had 13 years to change the system and failed to do so.
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I agree with you as to what's the point if you aren't representing the consumer.
 
Goforgoal said:
As previously stated Labour had 13 years to change the system. Not only did they not do anything, what they did do was remove Clause 4 which required them to pursue and enact nationalisation of public services. Blair and his cronies were just as conservative as Thatcher, so don’t just keep bashing the Tories. As I said in an earlier post none of them have the welfare of the common people at heart.
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So you are blaming the Prime Minister from 15 years ago for the Tories inability to enact a sustainable and strategic energy policy? You might as well blame Churchill for breaking up the Empire and losing our cheap supplies.

The Current Labour, LibDems and Greens all have policies to deal with this existential crisis NOW. Where are the actual Government? On this crisis day, not one single Government Minister prepared to face the media.

Not all Parties are the same, another falsehood to hide the Tories incompetence.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s not a magic solution though.. The French taxpayer is still picking up the bill… It’s just an accounting trick really.

And the Energy Supply companies are mostly bankrupt because of Government Policy, as opposed to the free market, which targeted a price cap at the wrong businesses.

Ultimately it’s the gas producers and sone electricity producers who are running off with big bags of swag, whilst others pay the price.
Click to expand...
The difference is, the Taxpayer will gain an asset for the vast sums invested, the way it is likely to be dealt with, Shareholders will gain funds.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
The difference is, the Taxpayer will gain an asset for the vast sums invested, the way it is likely to be dealt with, Shareholders will gain funds.
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They gain an asset for the excessive cost to purchase the small part of EDF that wasn’t already owned, but that business (and ultimately the tax payer) then also has to soak up the impact of high gas price.

As I’ve said elsewhere on the thread the situation in France is totally different anyway as their generation mix is far less gas focused than the U.K. and other European countries. They’re heavily invested in nuclear. So the impact of a nationalisation is not the same as it would be here in the U.K.
I’m assuming their gas consumers are still exposed to rising gas costs directly as well..
 
Tangerinemoss said:
So you are blaming the Prime Minister from 15 years ago for the Tories inability to enact a sustainable and strategic energy policy? You might as well blame Churchill for breaking up the Empire and losing our cheap supplies.

The Current Labour, LibDems and Greens all have policies to deal with this existential crisis NOW. Where are the actual Government? On this crisis day, not one single Government Minister prepared to face the media.

Not all Parties are the same, another falsehood to hide the Tories incompetence.
Click to expand...
The easiest job in politics is being in opposition. You can say anything you like in the knowledge the current government will get the blame. I am not absolving the current encumbent of any responsibility whatsoever. If you read my earlier posts you would know that, however the previous Labour government as I said did nothing to improve the situation in 13 years. Yes it’s a long time since they were in power, that’s because the voting public haven’t trusted them since. Just shows how much confidence they’ve had in their policies.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
They gain an asset for the excessive cost to purchase the small part of EDF that wasn’t already owned, but that business (and ultimately the tax payer) then also has to soak up the impact of high gas price.

As I’ve said elsewhere on the thread the situation in France is totally different anyway as their generation mix is far less gas focused than the U.K. and other European countries. They’re heavily invested in nuclear. So the impact of a nationalisation is not the same as it would be here in the U.K.
I’m assuming their gas consumers are still exposed to rising gas costs directly as well..
Click to expand...
We are wasting our time, you can’t spoil a good story with facts, it doesn’t suit the narrative.
 
Wizaard said:
So why are the French freezing prices despite importing far more Russian gas than us?

Why are the Norwegians covering 90% of energy bills for their citizens?

There is simply no will by this lot because energy companies are big donors for them, hence the talk of scrapping environmental levies.
Click to expand...
Here in Ireland, it is not even a page 94 story in the press, except for coverage of the situation in the UK. There is food price inflation but nothing like in the UK. The carbon tax has put a few bob on a sack of coal, but otherwise, so far, there doesn't seem to be a serious problem over here. It was the Tory government that decided to do away with gas storage facilities, to sell our assets (energy, water, rail etc.) to overseas owners who have no loyalty to the UK, just their own bonuses and their shareholders. Add a not for purpose regulator, and that is what you get. Yes, there is an international dimension to all this, but please stop making excuses for the Tories ( not you Wiz - the usual suspects elsewhere on this thread.)
 
kerrytangerine said:
Here in Ireland, it is not even a page 94 story in the press, except for coverage of the situation in the UK. There is food price inflation but nothing like in the UK. The carbon tax has put a few bob on a sack of coal, but otherwise, so far, there doesn't seem to be a serious problem over here. It was the Tory government that decided to do away with gas storage facilities, to sell our assets (energy, water, rail etc.) to overseas owners who have no loyalty to the UK, just their own bonuses and their shareholders. Add a not for purpose regulator, and that is what you get. Yes, there is an international dimension to all this, but please stop making excuses for the Tories ( not you Wiz - the usual suspects elsewhere on this thread.)
Click to expand...
The elephant in the room is Brexit. By definition, not an issue in Ireland or the rest of Europe.

Cue denials.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
They gain an asset for the excessive cost to purchase the small part of EDF that wasn’t already owned, but that business (and ultimately the tax payer) then also has to soak up the impact of high gas price.

As I’ve said elsewhere on the thread the situation in France is totally different anyway as their generation mix is far less gas focused than the U.K. and other European countries. They’re heavily invested in nuclear. So the impact of a nationalisation is not the same as it would be here in the U.K.
I’m assuming their gas consumers are still exposed to rising gas costs directly as well..
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Totally get your second para 👍

On the first, as a tax payer, I want something physical for all the money that inevitably will be fed to the energy "companies" to keep the economy afloat. Even with the banks, UK plc got shares which it could sell at a later date. May not have got it all back, but partial recovery is better than "handouts" to energy companies.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
But energy price rises are a massive issue throughout Europe.

Ireland ain’t going to be immune to it either, they’ll still be waiting for pigeon post to get the news no doubt.
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Wholesale energy costs are a massive issue, but a directive to stop the price rise to the consumer has happened in a number of countries, while we sanction an 80%+ rise with more to come in January.

Obvious where the priority is in between citizen and business.
 
Limechase said:
This may sound simple, but, if UK produced gas was sold to our energy generators at cost, then prices should not rise? OK we need to buy in gas from elseware, but surely that would reduce cost?


Some people/companies are making vast profits, & production costs are probably constant, so profiteering?
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We import around about 30% of the gas we use, so we have to pay market price for that, and the production companies are selling the gas at market prices so it's not profiteering, but because gas prices are so high, the production companies are making vast and unexpected profits, that can (and I suspect will) be taxed heavily without seriously damaging investment, and that windfall can then be distributed to reduce the effects of high gas prices.

However, although the UK is in a better position than much of Europe, the reality is we still need to minimize our energy usage this winter as much as possible, so measures that artificially suppress prices are not a good move, and direct financial support is a better move.
 
Lost Seasider said:
We import around about 30% of the gas we use, so we have to pay market price for that, and the production companies are selling the gas at market prices so it's not profiteering, but because gas prices are so high, the production companies are making vast and unexpected profits, that can (and I suspect will) be taxed heavily without seriously damaging investment, and that windfall can then be distributed to reduce the effects of high gas prices.

However, although the UK is in a better position than much of Europe, the reality is we still need to minimize our energy usage this winter as much as possible, so measures that artificially suppress prices are not a good move, and direct financial support is a better move.
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I read this last week, that energy prices in France have risen 4%, & in Germany 25% & in the UK 256% ( I pay 13cents a Kw/hr in Spain, about 9p, & here I pay 28p) why??
 
kerrytangerine said:
Here in Ireland, it is not even a page 94 story in the press, except for coverage of the situation in the UK. There is food price inflation but nothing like in the UK. The carbon tax has put a few bob on a sack of coal, but otherwise, so far, there doesn't seem to be a serious problem over here. It was the Tory government that decided to do away with gas storage facilities, to sell our assets (energy, water, rail etc.) to overseas owners who have no loyalty to the UK, just their own bonuses and their shareholders. Add a not for purpose regulator, and that is what you get. Yes, there is an international dimension to all this, but please stop making excuses for the Tories ( not you Wiz - the usual suspects elsewhere on this thread.)
Click to expand...

Alternatively, you could be in for a nasty surprise: https://www.newstalk.com/news/irela...y-in-europe-for-looming-energy-crisis-1370523

Ireland is the worst-prepared country in Europe for the energy crisis, according to the Chair of the Irish Academy of Engineering.

He said the biggest issue facing the country is that we have no gas storage facilities.

Mr Moore said Ireland is also the only coastal country in Europe without Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) importation infrastructure.


and: https://www.irishtimes.com/technolo...be-no-surprise-to-anyone-in-official-ireland/

More evidence of years of disconnected inward investment policy and national energy planning, with prioritisation of corporates over citizens, arrived by careening clown car this week.


Edit: one more link: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/ourview/arid-40909577.html

It seems difficult to comprehend the notion that our nearest neighbour, a nation with which hundreds of thousands of people have familial ties, would do Ireland harm in a period of collective crisis by taking action that could cut off gas supplies this winter.

Yet, that is what we are being asked to contemplate by suggestions that Britain has contingency plans to cease provision to Europe in the event of continent-wide shortages following the illegal Russian invasion of the Ukraine.

Many European leaders fear that rationing is on its way. Ireland imports 70% of the gas it needs through connections with Britain. The rest comes from Corrib.
 
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Wizaard said:
Wholesale energy costs are a massive issue, but a directive to stop the price rise to the consumer has happened in a number of countries, while we sanction an 80%+ rise with more to come in January.

Obvious where the priority is in between citizen and business.
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It’s all just shuffling the paper around in a different order in many ways so the consumer isn’t unaffected.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s all just shuffling the paper around in a different order in many ways so the consumer isn’t unaffected.
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Our payments to EDF, one of the Big 6 cartel, go towards French subsidies. Good to see we continue to support our former EU colleagues.
 
Wizaard said:
Our payments to EDF, one of the Big 6 cartel, go towards French subsidies. Good to see we continue to support our former EU colleagues.
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And premium priced gas exported into the EU puts money into the British Exchequer. Each country will have their own unique circumstances.

British Companies have interests all over the world.

We can’t be expansive global Britain one minute and insular island Britain the next.
 
Wizaard said:
Our payments to EDF, one of the Big 6 cartel, go towards French subsidies. Good to see we continue to support our former EU colleagues.
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I’m not as up to speed as I was Wiz, but to put into context, Bloomberg have reported record power prices in France this week with power prices hitting 900 Euros per MWh… That’s 90 pence per kWh just for the Energy (before any distribution, transmission & levies and taxes).

They’re suffering infrastructure issues with their nuclear and hydro plants.

So that cost is ultimately being soaked up by the French Taxpayer.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I’m not as up to speed as I was Wiz, but to put into context, Bloomberg have reported record power prices in France this week with power prices hitting 900 Euros per MWh… That’s 90 pence per kWh just for the Energy (before any distribution, transmission & levies and taxes).

They’re suffering infrastructure issues with their nuclear and hydro plants.

So that cost is ultimately being soaked up by the French Taxpayer.
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That makes me feel better
 
Was going to retire shortly (see retirement thread) I may have to work to pay for my leccy & gas.
HMRC needs to increase tax relief for working from home, as cost to heat & power technology increase
 
Pritti Patel has put forward a plan to strap all immigrants landing in dinghy’s on our coastline, to a large treadmill generator turbine to solve electricity supply challenges.

Dido Harding will lead the spreadsheet team for a knock down £20 billion so all good 👍
 
For those interested, our mighty fleet of wind turbines are currently producing 0.64 Gw of electricity, enough to meet 2% of the current demand, as for solar, look out of the window.
 
One good thing about living in a cardboard box is no utility bills. Lined it with ferret fur so it is snug as a bug in a hippie's beard. Box is close enough to KFC to get their wifi for free and anything chucked in the bins to eat. Never had it so good.👍
 
Goforgoal said:
The easiest job in politics is being in opposition. You can say anything you like in the knowledge the current government will get the blame. I am not absolving the current encumbent of any responsibility whatsoever. If you read my earlier posts you would know that, however the previous Labour government as I said did nothing to improve the situation in 13 years. Yes it’s a long time since they were in power, that’s because the voting public haven’t trusted them since. Just shows how much confidence they’ve had in their policies.
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Yet you blame the early 2000s Government, ignoring the here and now.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Alternatively, you could be in for a nasty surprise: https://www.newstalk.com/news/irela...y-in-europe-for-looming-energy-crisis-1370523

Ireland is the worst-prepared country in Europe for the energy crisis, according to the Chair of the Irish Academy of Engineering.

He said the biggest issue facing the country is that we have no gas storage facilities.

Mr Moore said Ireland is also the only coastal country in Europe without Liquified Natural Gas (LNG) importation infrastructure.


and: https://www.irishtimes.com/technolo...be-no-surprise-to-anyone-in-official-ireland/

More evidence of years of disconnected inward investment policy and national energy planning, with prioritisation of corporates over citizens, arrived by careening clown car this week.


Edit: one more link: https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/ourview/arid-40909577.html

It seems difficult to comprehend the notion that our nearest neighbour, a nation with which hundreds of thousands of people have familial ties, would do Ireland harm in a period of collective crisis by taking action that could cut off gas supplies this winter.

Yet, that is what we are being asked to contemplate by suggestions that Britain has contingency plans to cease provision to Europe in the event of continent-wide shortages following the illegal Russian invasion of the Ukraine.

Many European leaders fear that rationing is on its way. Ireland imports 70% of the gas it needs through connections with Britain. The rest comes from Corrib.
Click to expand...
I am not saying that there will not be a problem here, just that it does not seem to be an issue in the way that it is in the UK. There may be reasons for this.
1. There is no mains gas here except in Dublin. We use bottled calor gas for cooking and that has gone up from 29€ to 34€ , quite a big % rise but as we only use 2 bottles a year, easily accommodated
2 In rural Ireland, most folk burn the turf ( often cut from their own family-owned bog)+. So free or, if bought, relatively cheap. I will not burn turf for ecological concerns but have just bought 3 tons of kiln-dried firewood for 180€ , that will do me for two winters.
3. There is a massive investment in wind power here.

4. Retrofitting of insulation is moving at pace.

5 Solar panels are subsidised, as are heatpumps.

6 All the above, plus the fact that water is free and property tax ( your council tax) is low ( I pay 90€ for a 4 bed 2 bath detached on an acre site) means that there is not the same pressure on family wallets.

The biggest problem here, by far, us the housing market but that is another story
 
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