ENGLAND V ITALY match thread

NewburyOne said:
Aye, 4 of us setting off at 1230. Should be a good atmosphere and hopefully a win that will see us all but qualified for the finals.
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Thought a point tomorrow was enough due to remaining fixtures / head to head

Edit - copied from elsewhere. So draw - qualify. Win - top group.

Assuming England vs Italy is a draw and Ukraine beat Malta, the Group C table would read: England 14 (P6), Ukraine 13 (P7) and Italy 11 (P6). Italy then play Ukraine final game.

If Italy win vs Ukraine, they can reach up to 17 points. Ukraine would finish on 13 points - not enough to get past England (14).

If Ukraine win vs Italy, they finish on 16 points - but that means Italy would be on a maximum of 14 points and would lose out to England on head to head, which is the first tiebreaker decider (England won in Italy earlier in the group stages).

If Italy and Ukraine draw, Italy can reach up to 15 points, so could go above England - but Ukraine could only reach 14 points and once again lose out to England on their head-to-head record (England took four points from Ukraine).
 
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Halifax71 said:
Thought a point tomorrow was enough due to remaining fixtures / head to head

Edit - copied from elsewhere. So draw - qualify. Win - top group.

Assuming England vs Italy is a draw and Ukraine beat Malta, the Group C table would read: England 14 (P6), Ukraine 13 (P7) and Italy 11 (P6). Italy then play Ukraine final game.

If Italy win vs Ukraine, they can reach up to 17 points. Ukraine would finish on 13 points - not enough to get past England (14).

If Ukraine win vs Italy, they finish on 16 points - but that means Italy would be on a maximum of 14 points and would lose out to England on head to head, which is the first tiebreaker decider (England won in Italy earlier in the group stages).

If Italy and Ukraine draw, Italy can reach up to 15 points, so could go above England - but Ukraine could only reach 14 points and once again lose out to England on their head-to-head record (England took four points from Ukraine).
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Bloody hell Southgate will be playing 10 defenders 😬
 
Looks like Southgate started a second choice XI v Australia so it'll be something like...

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire Trippier
Rice Bellingham Foden
Rashford Kane Grealish

Decent side but I don't understand why some people think Southgate is holding us back from cruising to tournament victories.

Check out Portugal's squad at the weekend with a bench yesterday that included Bernardo Silva, Jota , Neves, Neto.

Spain has everything except a top quality centre forward.
France = Mbappe Griezmann Tchouameni Rabiot Koman Muani
Even Norway has a front 4 that includes Haaland, Odegaard and Bobb.

England has a good team but it's very tight once you hit the quarter final stage if not before.
 
Really hope Henderson doesn't start
I have defended him in the past but the level he plays at in SA he should not play for England. I would expect to see Phillips instead of Henderson in the lineup above. A slight improvement.
 
voyeur said:
Looks like Southgate started a second choice XI v Australia so it'll be something like...

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire Trippier
Rice Bellingham Foden
Rashford Kane Grealish

Decent side but I don't understand why some people think Southgate is holding us back from cruising to tournament victories.

Check out Portugal's squad at the weekend with a bench yesterday that included Bernardo Silva, Jota , Neves, Neto.

Spain has everything except a top quality centre forward.
France = Mbappe Griezmann Tchouameni Rabiot Koman Muani
Even Norway has a front 4 that includes Haaland, Odegaard and Bobb.

England has a good team but it's very tight once you hit the quarter final stage if not before.
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After scoring so early in the Euro's final against Italy, we sat back and literally let them do what they wanted for the remaining 118 minutes.

This is an Italian side who have failed to qualify for the last 2 World Cups.

I will put my neck on the line and say that this England squad is one of the best in the world and we should be competing and winning tournaments, every single time. We only beat poor teams in tournaments and get beat by the France's the Italy's, the Belgians etc.

If Southgate got potted now. Do you think he'd get a job at any PL club? That says enough for me.
 
OverTheLine said:
After scoring so early in the Euro's final against Italy, we sat back and literally let them do what they wanted for the remaining 118 minutes.

This is an Italian side who have failed to qualify for the last 2 World Cups.

I will put my neck on the line and say that this England squad is one of the best in the world and we should be competing and winning tournaments, every single time. We only beat poor teams in tournaments and get beat by the France's the Italy's, the Belgians etc.

If Southgate got potted now. Do you think he'd get a job at any PL club? That says enough for me.
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We should be winning tournaments every single time cos we are one of the best teams in the world? Hmm.
 
voyeur said:
We should be winning tournaments every single time cos we are one of the best teams in the world? Hmm.
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On paper, yes.

Treble winners - John Stones, Phil Foden, Kyle Walker, Jack Grealish
Champions League and Premier League winners - Trent Alexander-Arnold, Jordan Henderson
Champions League Winners - Mason Mount, Reece James, Ben Chilwell
Best youngsters in world football - Bukayo Saka, Jude Bellingham, Declan Rice
Top 3 Strikers in world football - Harry Kane

The squad is full of serial winners and world class footballers who compete at the highest level.

Since the World Cup in 2018, in my honest opinion, we should have won 1 of the 3 tournaments.

We are favourites for the Euros for a reason.
 
OverTheLine said:
After scoring so early in the Euro's final against Italy, we sat back and literally let them do what they wanted for the remaining 118 minutes.

This is an Italian side who have failed to qualify for the last 2 World Cups.

I will put my neck on the line and say that this England squad is one of the best in the world and we should be competing and winning tournaments, every single time. We only beat poor teams in tournaments and get beat by the France's the Italy's, the Belgians etc.

If Southgate got potted now. Do you think he'd get a job at any PL club? That says enough for me.
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You make it sound like Italy were pushovers.
They were on a 3 year 33 game unbeaten run at the time.
 
L’étranger said:
You make it sound like Italy were pushovers.
They were on a 3 year 33 game unbeaten run at the time.
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They were absolutely there for the taking in that game.

They were completely rattled for the first 20 minutes, then we just decided to kill the game for some bizarre reason.

We should have beat them. They were never special as seen by their dismal World Cup Qualification displays.
 
OverTheLine said:
On paper, yes.

Treble winners - John Stones, Phil Foden, Kyle Walker, Jack Grealish
Champions League and Premier League winners - Trent Alexander-Arnold, Jordan Henderson
Champions League Winners - Mason Mount, Reece James, Ben Chilwell
Best youngsters in world football - Bukayo Saka, Jude Bellingham, Declan Rice
Top 3 Strikers in world football - Harry Kane

The squad is full of serial winners and world class footballers who compete at the highest level.

Since the World Cup in 2018, in my honest opinion, we should have won 1 of the 3 tournaments.

We are favourites for the Euros for a reason.
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We are one of the best teams as you say. So we are in with a shout. Those English players have won silverware playing in teams with the likes of Salah and Mane, Haaland, De Bruyne, Silva etc etc etc.

Tinted specs mate. There are countries with players as good as and better than ours.
 
voyeur said:
We are one of the best teams as you say. So we are in with a shout. Those English players have won silverware playing in teams with the likes of Salah and Mane, Haaland, De Bruyne, Silva etc etc etc.

Tinted specs mate. There are countries with players as good as and better than ours.
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They have, yes. But the only squad that has anywhere near the luxuries that we have are France.

Argentina won the WC last year, but I wouldn't say their squad is better than ours.

It's poor management that has caused us to lose in games we should (or atleast could have won). It's all well and good saying that Southgate has 'brought the group together' but that doesn't win you competitions.
 
When it comes to the big crunch games Southgate is clearly not up to it ,negative with a rather feeble approach. but he is pleasant polite and courteous which suits the FA. you have to have the courage ,confidence and self belief to win the big ones and instil that into your players as all the great managers have unlike Southgate which is why we have never wone the WORLD OR european championships despite a very talented squad.
 
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OverTheLine said:
They have, yes. But the only squad that has anywhere near the luxuries that we have are France.

Argentina won the WC last year, but I wouldn't say their squad is better than ours.

It's poor management that has caused us to lose in games we should (or atleast could have won). It's all well and good saying that Southgate has 'brought the group together' but that doesn't win you competitions.
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I think it's more complex than that. Southgate has made us more consistent and able to get to the late stages. But he's done that by doing what othertop international sides do, making us hard to beat. Nobody cuts loose any more. It's all cagey. It's reasonable to criticise Southgate for what happened against Croatia and Italy to some extent, we tried to protect a lead too much, for too long. Especially the Italy game when we had home advantage, it was a huge opportunity. But Italy are long time football warriors who turn it up in the heat of battle and find ways to squeak through. Their players are very savvy.

It's fine margins, and these countries actually have technically better and more intelligent footballers than we do. We've improved a lot but we still don't have the footballing nous and depth of technical ability that Argentina, Brazil, Italy, France, Germany, Spain have. In my opinion. Countries that win tournaments. They know how to. Their coaches and their players. Even when the margins are very tight.

We are trying to crack that line and we keep nudging it. Hopefully next year we will smash it. We should go close but no coach would guarantee that we win it. In my opinion. I hope Southgate doesn't sit back on a first half one goal lead though. Hopefully he's learned that lesson. Might be better to go behind early.
 
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Just arrived in the big smoke for the match. Birthday treat for daughters fiancé - always knew them moving to London would come in handy.
 
OverTheLine said:
On paper, yes.

Treble winners - John Stones, Phil Foden, Kyle Walker, Jack Grealish
Champions League and Premier League winners - Trent Alexander-Arnold, Jordan Henderson
Champions League Winners - Mason Mount, Reece James, Ben Chilwell
Best youngsters in world football - Bukayo Saka, Jude Bellingham, Declan Rice
Top 3 Strikers in world football - Harry Kane

The squad is full of serial winners and world class footballers who compete at the highest level.

Since the World Cup in 2018, in my honest opinion, we should have won 1 of the 3 tournaments.

We are favourites for the Euros for a reason.
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you miss voyeurs point. You say we are one of the best teams in the world. So you acknowledge there's other best teams in the world. So it's illogical to say we should be winning every time.

And then your last point "we are favourites". Think about that for a minute. Favourites with who? Would that be English bookmakers where it's English fans placing their money! Would we be favourites in French, Spanish and some of the other top countries bookies. Of course we wouldn't. Odds are determined by the amount of money bet.
 
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier
Phillips
Rice
Rashford
Bellingham
Foden
Kane

Should Phillips be starting ahead of TAA or Maddison?
 
voyeur said:
Pickford
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier
Phillips
Rice
Rashford
Bellingham
Foden
Kane

Should Phillips be starting ahead of TAA or Maddison?
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you ask a valid question. I know you are a big advocate of Southgate and therein lies your answer. Southgate in the big games and any meaningful game against Italy is a big game, tends to side on the super cautious approach. And Phillips selection over TAA and Maddison does little to dispel that theory.
 
20togo said:
you ask a valid question. I know you are a big advocate of Southgate and therein lies your answer. Southgate in the big games and any meaningful game against Italy is a big game, tends to side on the super cautious approach. And Phillips selection over TAA and Maddison does little to dispel that theory.
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I'm not really a big advocate of Southgate tbh. I'd prefer a much more attacking approach and accept whatever that brings. I'll defend Southgate in certain situations when the criticism is over the top and wrong. But he sucks the joy out of it all. Modern joyless football.
 
I think it's right.
Italy are a decent side, Phillips is a ratter and will usually be found closing down and trying to win the ball back. He will have a defensive screening role.
Rice and Bellingham can therefore go further forward with this insurance.
 
20togo said:
A bit like Critchley?
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I think there is a fundamental difference in that Critch works with a very tight budget for a one man band owner. Not with Kane, Bellingham, Rice et al. And the FA riches. It's two very different things. I'd prefer Critch to be less safety first, but with the resources and remit he has i think he does kind of what is necessary. And he builds a side that goes toe to toe and competes and the energy and competitiveness provide a level of entertainment, when it gets it all straightened out. We do attempt to create pressure and attack teams.
 
voyeur said:
I'm not really a big advocate of Southgate tbh. I'd prefer a much more attacking approach and accept whatever that brings. I'll defend Southgate in certain situations when the criticism is over the top and wrong. But he sucks the joy out of it all. Modern joyless football.
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We have Foden, Kane, Rashford and Bellingham going forward
Trippier and Walker also get forward, it's a well balanced side
 
I'm a little surprised to see Phillips starting, but I'm pleased to see Grealish left out. All this cutting back onto his right foot is predictable and slows the game down. This team with Saka back on the right looks strong going into the finals.
 
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OverTheLine said:
After scoring so early in the Euro's final against Italy, we sat back and literally let them do what they wanted for the remaining 118 minutes.

This is an Italian side who have failed to qualify for the last 2 World Cups.

I will put my neck on the line and say that this England squad is one of the best in the world and we should be competing and winning tournaments, every single time. We only beat poor teams in tournaments and get beat by the France's the Italy's, the Belgians etc.

If Southgate got potted now. Do you think he'd get a job at any PL club? That says enough for me.
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🤣
 
What a dope Phillips. Could hgave been carded after one minute, which would make him useless for the rest of the game
 
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