England v Poland (Wed)

[Old_Laytonian]

Totally agree the England haters are out in force again got nothing decent to say but just say were garbage blah blah they will never be happy whoever plays or manages the team until we win something which is far from easy.

I couldn’t agree more .

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Totally agree the England haters are out in force again got nothing decent to say but just say we're garbage blah blah they will never be happy whoever plays or manages the team until we win something which is far from easy.

Same following a Pool match day people on here still not satisfied when we scrape a win or earn a hard draw.
Playing fantastic football week in week out and scoring 4-5 goals every game would be great but it just doesn’t happen like that anymore.
England set out to get 9 points from the first 3 games and they’ve got exactly that I just can’t see the issues here with some people.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

You haven't sat on the fence with your analysis of England's last world cup campaign have you but please may I point a few things out.

1. We didn't come well behind Belgium in the group they beat us 1-0 to gain 9 points to our 6
2. You quite correctly pointed out that by coming 2nd we gained an easier run in, do you not think that Southgate and the England backroom staff would have thought of that possibility?
3. Scrapped through against Colombia. The only reason it got to penalties was due to a lucky 93rd minute equaliser.
4. So because we beat Sweden they are poor? Being an England fan you'll know that we've always had problems with the Swedes in major cup competitions but the time we win its because they were poor. In reality england were really good that day.
5. The only major disappointment of that tournament was not putting Croatia to the sword. 1 up after 5 minutes they should have bombarded them thereafter but allowed a very tired Croatia (they had got through the last two games via e train time and penalties) back into the game.
Who knows what the outcome would have been if england had got to the finals as Croatia really were running on empty by then.
Was it southgate's negativity in that semi or did the players freeze?
But you'd already made up your mind.

Thank you for your considered response. It is of course all about opinions and would be very dull if we all agreed, however last night we scraped through with a late winner against a team without their outstanding top rated striker in the world and 3 other late withdrawals due to Covid. A team who are rated 20th against our 4th place and we were at home they were away.It was far from an impressive performance and although the narrow win was important it was far from convincing.

To deal with each of the points you list:

1.We were far behind Belgium in PERFORMANCES in the group. Their 1-0 victory against us was with 2 reserve teams after both had qualified against poor opposition.The move towards more and more teams being allowed to qualify for the finals unlike 1966 when only 16 qualified means that many group games are of very ordinary quality as ours were.

2. Southgate had absolutely no choice in coming second, Belgium were far superior and were always going to be ahead of us.

3.Columbia`s goal was late but not lucky.

4. Sweden were regarded as poor and by all estimations played very poorly against us.

5.Here I do agree with you and I think it was down to a mixture of Southgate`s negativity and the team failing to perform.When this happens in big games in my view the most influential person in the team`s performance is the manager. Southgate has done nothing in his career to suggest he deals well with the most pressurized situations either when missing a crucial penalty as he did for England or as a club or England manager.The great managers fill their team with great belief in their ability to perform under the highest pressure and thus bring out the very best in them when it matters most.

Southgate is no doubt a decent man but far from a Clough or a Ferguson or a Paisley.Sadly we won`t win anything under him.He was just an ordinary club manager and is no different for England.

 

[FessParker]

If you`re honest we had an incredibly lucky run in the world cup and by coming second well behind Belgium in our group we then got a really soft run , scraped through on penalties against Columbia then beat a very poor Sweden before barely showing up as an attacking force in the semi against Croatia which caste Southgate in a very poor light in my view.

Once again you want to sit on the fence whilst I am prepared express my opinion.I might be wrong but I doubt it.We won`t win anything big (Euros or World cup ) under Southgate however good the squad may be.

I think the four likes for my post are telling ( none for your reply). It's not a case of sitting on the fence , more about giving a bloke a chance. We've only competed in one tournament since his appointment , where we didn't do too badly , for heaven's sake.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

See my reply to Wizzerboy. Time will tell of course.We have some good players but to make the the most of them we need a brave positive ,inspiring manager which we certainly haven`t got.

It certainly doesn`t bother me that a few on here may not share my opinion in fact quite the contrary.

 

[straightatthewall]

I do wonder what world some of you live in. In the one I inhabit, England have one world class player - Kane - some decent-ish midfield/attackers, some of whom are young and can potentially get better and not much of note in terms of keepers and central defenders. The head coach managed to get that to the semis of the World Cup and we regularly compete against teams with more standout players.

On a 1-2-1 basis we’ll lose more than we win against the top 5 teams in the world, but we’re good enough to trouble them and on the right day, good enough to beat them.

I also see a squad that provides real options depending on who we’re playing.

Expecting England to win big tournaments at this moment is as daft as expecting Blackpool to win the FA Cup. Realign your goals and then enjoy watching us compete.

 

[Ruperthoop]

On the surface that was a very good win, 3 points against a good well organised side, a very decent first half and overcoming an horrendous mistake from one of our most senior players. There are though still deep concerns. Despite our rich attacking talents Southgate appears to be overly cautious, for example, as Roy Keane said England were not ruthless enough in that first half. To be fair to Southgate we have grave concerns at centre half. Stones is a mistake waiting to happen as shown last night. Gomez is quality but so often injured and unlikely to be at the Euros. Maguire is decent but nobody else so far has been convincing. Maybe the manager has been right in the past to play 3 chs to compensate. Ben Godfrey though looks a very good prospect and hopefully Tomori will come very good.

 

[straightatthewall]

On the surface that was a very good win, 3 points against a good well organised side, a very decent first half and overcoming an horrendous mistake from one of our most senior players. There are though still deep concerns. Despite our rich attacking talents Southgate appears to be overly cautious, for example, as Roy Keane said England were not ruthless enough in that first half. To be fair to Southgate we have grave concerns at centre half. Stones is a mistake waiting to happen as shown last night. Gomez is quality but so often injured and unlikely to be at the Euros. Maguire is decent but nobody else so far has been convincing. Maybe the manager has been right in the past to play 3 chs to compensate. Ben Godfrey though looks a very good prospect and hopefully Tomori will come very good.

Not being ruthless enough has very little to do with Southgate and a lot to do with not being good enough to consistently put sides like Poland to the sword. Sterling is a prime example, a dangerous player, but it’s obvious that he also needs a lot of time and chances to convert his threat into goals. And if he swapped him for Rashford the same would apply.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

Totally agree the England haters are out in force again got nothing decent to say but just say we're garbage blah blah they will never be happy whoever plays or manages the team until we win something which is far from easy.

I am far from an England hater and always support them and hope they play well and win but I try to look beyond results against lower rated opposition to see if they are actually good enough to win major tournaments.


The top football nations in the world over time are surely Brazil, Germany,Argentina,Spain,Italy,France and England.

All the above except us have won major titles in the last 50 years.Actually I think most if not all those except us have won at least 2 major titles in that time.

PS Portugal and Greece have had major successes in that time too.Just not poor old England who gave the game to the world.

 

[Wizzerboy]

Thank you for your considered response. It is of course all about opinions and would be very dull if we all agreed, however last night we scraped through with a late winner against a team without their outstanding top rated striker in the world and 3 other late withdrawals due to Covid. A team who are rated 20th against our 4th place and we were at home they were away.It was far from an impressive performance and although the narrow win was important it was far from convincing.

To deal with each of the points you list:

1.We were far behind Belgium in PERFORMANCES in the group. Their 1-0 victory against us was with 2 reserve teams after both had qualified against poor opposition.The move towards more and more teams being allowed to qualify for the finals unlike 1966 when only 16 qualified means that many group games are of very ordinary quality as ours were.

2. Southgate had absolutely no choice in coming second, Belgium were far superior and were always going to be ahead of us.

3.Columbia`s goal was late but not lucky.

4. Sweden were regarded as poor and by all estimations played very poorly against us.

5.Here I do agree with you and I think it was down to a mixture of Southgate`s negativity and the team failing to perform.When this happens in big games in my view the most influential person in the team`s performance is the manager. Southgate has done nothing in his career to suggest he deals well with the most pressurized situations either when missing a crucial penalty as he did for England or as a club or England manager.The great managers fill their team with great belief in their ability to perform under the highest pressure and thus bring out the very best in them when it matters most.

Southgate is no doubt a decent man but far from a Clough or a Ferguson or a Paisley.Sadly we won`t win anything under him.He was just an ordinary club manager and is no different for England.

Picking up on tour last paragraph, no he isnt a Clough or Paisley that's why he got the job. Hes a yes man and that's the only person who gets the england job to satisfy the suits.
The last time we went against the grain (thanks to jimmy Armfield) and appointed Venables we came a buggs dick off getting to the final.
Ironically with Southgate missing the vital penalty

 

[straightatthewall]

Picking up on tour last paragraph, no he isnt a Clough or Paisley that's why he got the job. Hes a yes man and that's the only person who gets the england job to satisfy the suits.
The last time we went against the grain (thanks to jimmy Armfield) and appointed Venables we came a buggs dick off getting to the final.
Ironically with Southgate missing the vital penalty

So who’s the ‘against the grain’ appointment out there? Chris Wilder?

 

[Wizzerboy]

So who’s the ‘against the grain’ appointment out there? Chris Wilder?

We have no one at present as English managers in the premier league are preoccupied with not getting their team relegated. So it's back to the wall dont lose tactics, rather than a team managed by a foreigner who let's his teams go out to attack and entertain, like a Guardiola.

I couldn't even tell you who is the highest English manager in the premier league and that's probably the reason Southgate got the job in the first place as he was the only English yes man available that wasnt firefighting at the time.

 

[Wizzerboy]

Its Dean Smith apparently who's the highest placed English manager.
Who'd want him as the national coach?

 

[Wizaard]

I thought we could have played better, BUT, we won the game, got three points and are now in a position where we can afford a slip up or two on what will be tough road trips to Hungary and Poland. The group destiny is very much in our hands, and to that end, we're well placed. Qualifying is all about getting through with the minimum of fuss and we did that last night.

Yes, we gave a way a goal, but so what? We came back and got a win that on the balance of play we deserved.

I've been as big a critic as anyone but we won the game. At this stage, that's all that matters. We found a way, as the cliché goes

 

[1950`spoolfan]

I thought we could have played better, BUT, we won the game, got three points and are now in a position where we can afford a slip up or two on what will be tough road trips to Hungary and Poland. The group destiny is very much in our hands, and to that end, we're well placed. Qualifying is all about getting through with the minimum of fuss and we did that last night.

Yes, we gave a way a goal, but so what? We came back and got a win that on the balance of play we deserved.

I've been as big a critic as anyone but we won the game. At this stage, that's all that matters. We found a way, as the cliché goes

We have been winning these games ad infinitum against consistently lower often much lower rated teams.I don`t think we have failed to qualify for either of the two major international tournaments this century but we are a major power in world football so that is expected.Its the quality of football we produce especially in big games that tells us if we are likely to achieve what we should be capable of.

To settle for less will get us nowhere.Last night`s game was at home against a much weakened team rated 16 places below us and although we won which was certainly the first priority we scraped through unimpressively. We will have to play much better than that if we are to win a major tournament which surely must be our aim.I just don`t think that we will win anything without a top man like Ramsey,Robson or Venables in charge and Southgate is certainly not that.

 

[20togo]

We have been winning these games ad infinitum against consistently lower often much lower rated teams.I don`t think we have failed to qualify for either of the two major international tournaments this century but we are a major power in world football so that is expected.Its the quality of football we produce especially in big games that tells us if we are likely to achieve what we should be capable of.

To settle for less will get us nowhere.Last night`s game was at home against a much weakened team rated 16 places below us and although we won which was certainly the first priority we scraped through unimpressively. We will have to play much better than that if we are to win a major tournament which surely must be our aim.I just don`t think that we will win anything without a top man like Ramsey,Robson or Venables in charge and Southgate is certainly not that.

The fact is, it's pretty damn difficult to win a major tournament. Of course to win one is our aim but don't deny the difficulty of being able to do that.Something which I feel you do.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

The fact is, it's pretty damn difficult to win a major tournament. Of course to win one is our aim but don't deny the difficulty of being able to do that.Something which I feel you do.

As I posted earlier we must surely be regarded as amongst the main football nations in the world but unlike everyone of them I listed who have all won at least 2 major titles in the last 50 years we have won none. Nor have we even reached a final.

I don`t for a moment pretend it`s easy but without an outstanding manager it is virtually impossible.

As President Kennedy once said when announcing his aim to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade " We do not do it because it is easy but because it is hard" and we all know how that panned out.

Without vision ,ambition and the right people in charge what`s difficult becomes impossible.

 

[20togo]

As I posted earlier we must surely be regarded as amongst the main football nations in the world but unlike everyone of them I listed who have all won at least 2 major titles in the last 50 years we have won none. Nor have we even reached a final.

I don`t for a moment pretend it`s easy but without an outstanding manager it is virtually impossible.

As President Kennedy once said when announcing his aim to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade " We do not do it because it is easy but because it is hard" and we all know how that panned out.

Without vision ,ambition and the right people at the top what`s difficult becomes impossible.

Of course we are one of the main nations but that doesn't mean we are the best. And you have to consider that at various points in time other teams other than those you mention come to the fore. Teams like Holland in the 70's and beyond and currently Belgium. We too often like to big ourselves up when reality is somewhat different. Imo the only genuine world class player we have at the moment is Kane. We need more than him. We've got some other decent players but not enough to genuinely challenge the current worlds best. Play well and a bit of luck and semi finals are achievable but that next big step of winning something is massive. But my point is that don't underestimate the achievement of getting to a semi final is. And of course by getting to a semi final just increases the pressure and expectation of wanting more.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

Of course we are one of the main nations but that doesn't mean we are the best. And you have to consider that at various points in time other teams other than those you mention come to the fore. Teams like Holland in the 70's and beyond and currently Belgium. We too often like to big ourselves up when reality is somewhat different. Imo the only genuine world class player we have at the moment is Kane. We need more than him. We've got some other decent players but not enough to genuinely challenge the current worlds best. Play well and a bit of luck and semi finals are achievable but that next big step of winning something is massive. But my point is that don't underestimate the achievement of getting to a semi final is. And of course by getting to a semi final just increases the pressure and expectation of wanting more.

You mention you think I underestimate how difficult it is to win a major international tournament.I don`t think I do but I think you underestimate the huge amount of luck we had in getting to the semi finals through being favoured by actually failing to win our group.In cup competitions the luck of the draw can work against a team or in its favour, for instance in 1948 we reached the Cup Final without ever being drawn against a First Division side.

In 26 successive major International tournaments we have not reached one single final despite winning endless major European club tournaments which are certainly not easy to win and before you point out that there are many foreign players in the PL I would also point out we had quite a few wins in European club competitions before the large influx of foreign players really took hold. If all the major football nations could win 2 or more major international tournaments and others like Holland,Portugal and even Greece do better in terms of wins and finals it surely can`t be argued that a country like ours has not underperformed . It certainly has and that does not seem about to change any time soon.

With a good manager the whole(ie the team) becomes greater than the sum of its parts(ie the players) the reverse seems to be happening currently and only great good fortune not great performances got us to the 2018 WC semi final, a situation which is unlikely to be repeated.

 

[20togo]

You mention you think I underestimate how difficult it is to win a major international tournament.I don`t think I do but I think you underestimate the huge amount of luck we had in getting to the semi finals through being favoured by actually failing to win our group.In cup competitions the luck of the draw can work against a team or in its favour, for instance in 1948 we reached the Cup Final without ever being drawn against a First Division side.

In 26 successive major International tournaments we have not reached one single final despite winning endless major European club tournaments which are certainly not easy to win and before you point out that there are many foreign players in the PL I would also point out we had quite a few wins in European club competitions before the large influx of foreign players really took hold. If all the major football nations could win 2 or more major international tournaments and others like Holland,Portugal and even Greece do better in terms of wins and finals it surely can`t be argued that a country like ours has not underperformed . It certainly has and that does not seem about to change any time soon.

With a good manager the whole(ie the team) becomes greater than the sum of its parts(ie the players) the reverse seems to be happening currently and only great good fortune not great performances got us to the 2018 WC semi final, a situation which is unlikely to be repeated.

Think you are being far too negative because it highlights your need to be so to make your point. There's no doubt we've had some shocking performances at tournaments and also some good fortune with the draws.But we've equally had some bad luck of the draws to at the later stages. The draw is what it is, you get good ,you get bad. And lets put you right on one thing with regards to your comment on the 2018 World Cup. Belgium were the top seeds in our group so they were the favourites to win the group which they did. We came second which is where we were expected to finish. It wasn't Englands fault that the top seeds in other groups got knocked out was it, which you seem to be implying.
That pretty much blows your whole point out of the water.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

It wasn't Englands fault that the top seeds in other groups got knocked out was it, which you seem to be implying.
That pretty much blows your whole point out of the water.

What a ridiculous statement. I was not implying anything of the sort.We were lucky with how the draw worked out and I simply said so and I also think that as a major football nation compared to other major football nations we have greatly underachieved over the last 50 years which the stats amply demonstrate and we will continue to do so until we appoint a manager that is up to the task.

I am happy to discuss this with others but not with people who make ludicrous irrational statements like the above and argue till the cows come home without making any worthwhile, constructive or rational contributions.

So as we all know you always have to have the last word I`ll leave you to argue with yourself I`ve got other things to do.

 

[20togo]

What a ridiculous statement. I was not implying anything of the sort.We were lucky with how the draw worked out and I simply said so and I also think that as a major football nation compared to other major football nations we have greatly underachieved over the last 50 years which the stats amply demonstrate and we will continue to do so until we appoint a manager that is up to the task.

I am happy to discuss this with others but not with people who make ludicrous irrational statements like the above and argue till the cows come home without making any worthwhile, constructive or rational contributions.

So as we all know you always have to have the last word I`ll leave you to argue with yourself I`ve got other things to do.

Not ridiculous at all. It wasn't me who was making the point about failing to win our group. It was you doing that in a manner that suggested we should have done. Clearly you'd forgotten that Belgium were the top seeds in our group so based on that we weren't expected to beat them. The fact that both Germany and Poland, two other of the top eight seeds and potential opponents, were eliminated clearly wasn't part of your thought process too.

 

[1950`spoolfan]

Not ridiculous at all. It wasn't me who was making the point about failing to win our group. It was you doing that in a manner that suggested we should have done. Clearly you'd forgotten that Belgium were the top seeds in our group so based on that we weren't expected to beat them. The fact that both Germany and Poland, two other of the top eight seeds and potential opponents, were eliminated clearly wasn't part of your thought process too.