For those thinking of holidaying abroad in 2021....

[ElBurroSinNombre]

The vaccine certainly works on the predominant variants, but at this time a significant proportion of the population remains unvaccinated and information on effectively in the real world is limited.

In the scheme of things and with the staggered re-opening of the economy 3 months is nothing.

It enables the Scientists to carefully assess the impact of the phased measures on the spread of virus and also to progress the vaccination process too... Allowing vulnerable groups to have their booster vaccination and those medium risk (high risk of long Covid) to be vaccinated...

For once, I agree with Bifster, who does seem to have changed his tune somewhat - some of us remember his earlier anti-vax propaganda and attempts to undermine confidence in the AZ jab - Macron would have been proud of you Bifster!

It seems that Johnson has learned from his mistakes. He is not over-promising and taking a slow walk out of the restrictions. This is the correct thing to do in the circumstances and it will give us good data on what works (i.e. important information about what drives transmission) so that we can make adjustments later to keep infection rates down. Being extra cautious also gives the option of giving pleasant surprises if things go well. In short, for about the first time in all of this it looks like the UK government have got a grip on things. Long may it continue.

 

[TangerineBayern]

We possibly should, but a combination of the Public driving the very first lockdown and essentially taking matters into their own hands when Government / Scientists were attempting to graduate measures and the decision to transition out to quickly last year, means we still have limited information.

To simply throw everything open at this stage would be stupid, irresponsible and risk all the effort we have made to get the transmission rates down.

In my view it will be far worse for people’s mental health and the economy if we are forced into a reversal and another lockdown by failing to adopt a more cautious approach to opening up.

It’s the right approach...

'In my view it will be far worse for people’s mental health and the economy if we are forced into a reversal and another lockdown by failing to adopt a more cautious approach to opening up.'

This is the most important point of all and will be / should be at the forefront of any decision the Government needs to take. We all want our freedom back and to move around as much as possible but within this country, and l feel for the travel and airline businesses but it’s a price we have to pay to avoid another lockdown.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

For once, I agree with Bifster, who does seem to have changed his tune somewhat - some of us remember his earlier anti-vax propaganda and attempts to undermine confidence in the AZ jab - Macron would have been proud of you Bifster!

It seems that Johnson has learned from his mistakes. He is not over-promising and taking a slow walk out of the restrictions. This is the correct thing to do in the circumstances and it will give us good data on what works (i.e. important information about what drives transmission) so that we can make adjustments later to keep infection rates down. Being extra cautious also gives the option of giving pleasant surprises if things go well. In short, for about the first time in all of this it looks like the UK government have got a grip on things. Long may it continue.

I’m astounded at your selective memory EBSN.

I have never posted anything on this website that could be referred to as ‘Anti-Vax Propaganda’. Something that I’ve reiterated time and time again.

What I did post were facts about the AZ vaccine at a time when you and others were posting untruths.

Why it would then surprise you that I’m also keen to see real life evidence of the vaccine efficacy and a cautious approach to re-opening our economy, I’m not sure.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

I’m astounded at your selective memory EBSN.

I have never posted anything on this website that could be referred to as ‘Anti-Vax Propaganda’. Something that I’ve reiterated time and time again.

What I did post were facts about the AZ vaccine at a time when you and others were posting untruths.

Why it would then surprise you that I’m also keen to see real life evidence of the vaccine efficacy and a cautious approach to re-opening our economy, I’m not sure.

You repeatedly asserted that you would not need a vaccine because you were a fine physical specimen with a strong immune system. And of course you mocked fellow AVFTTers for being overweight and very unfit (unlike yourself) telling super humans like you to get vaccinated. However it seems that you have changed this view and have now been vaccinated like any other rational person. However, you have constantly asserted the rights of the individual not to be vaccinated despite being unable to give any good reason for someone not to be vaccinated. Most of us accept that anyone can choose not to have a vaccine but that their choice in the matter may effect their ability to do other things, something that you have repeatedly argued against. All of this is negative, anti-vax stuff IMO. This is a national emergency and we need a national response.

On the AZ vaccine, you repeatedly argued that it would not provide immunity based on one paper in the stage 2 testing where monkeys were given the vaccine. Since this assumption has turned out to be wrong (i.e. when the results of clinical trials were released and the vaccine does in some cases provide immunity) you have been strangely silent on the matter. The messages that you posted on here would have gone down well in mainland Europe who also seem for some bizarre reason to want to discredit AZ.

 

[ansdellmafia]

'In my view it will be far worse for people’s mental health and the economy if we are forced into a reversal and another lockdown by failing to adopt a more cautious approach to opening up.'

This is the most important point of all and will be / should be at the forefront of any decision the Government needs to take. We all want our freedom back and to move around as much as possible but within this country, and l feel for the travel and airline businesses but it’s a price we have to pay to avoid another lockdown.

Apparently the government are being lobbied by a sizable group connected to people with mental health issues who do not wish the lockdown to be eased any time soon . There would seem to be many who see the lockdown as being a safe haven from the world around us as they see it in " normal " times .They are really worried about the impact on these people when things start to open up . I actually am aware of a whole family who feel that way .

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

You repeatedly asserted that you would not need a vaccine because you were a fine physical specimen with a strong immune system. And of course you mocked fellow AVFTTers for being overweight and very unfit (unlike yourself) telling super humans like you to get vaccinated. However it seems that you have changed this view and have now been vaccinated like any other rational person. However, you have constantly asserted the rights of the individual not to be vaccinated despite being unable to give any good reason for someone not to be vaccinated. Most of us accept that anyone can choose not to have a vaccine but that their choice in the matter may effect their ability to do other things, something that you have repeatedly argued against. All of this is negative, anti-vax stuff IMO. This is a national emergency and we need a national response.

On the AZ vaccine, you repeatedly argued that it would not provide immunity based on one paper in the stage 2 testing where monkeys were given the vaccine. Since this assumption has turned out to be wrong (i.e. when the results of clinical trials were released and the vaccine does in some cases provide immunity) you have been strangely silent on the matter. The messages that you posted on here would have gone down well in mainland Europe who also seem for some bizarre reason to want to discredit AZ.

Firstly - I stated on a single occasion (not repeatedly) that I may choose to rely on my own immune system as opposed to having a vaccine. This was shortly after Patrick Valance had annpounced that the Vaccine was unlikely to confer sterilising immunity and instead the aim of vaccines would be to eliminate the worst symptoms. You are correct that I have changed that view (and I stated very clearly at the time of posting that I would change based on any revision to the facts / medical advice) because a) The issue of Long Covid became more prevalent affecting people in my age category and b) It started to become apparent that there was a 'possibility' that vaccine based immunity was likely to be far effective than had been expected.

I continue to strongly believe that enforced vaccination is the wrong way to go and that individuals should be free to make an informed choice regarding vaccination. As I have said many times I belive the approach should be to promote vaccine use and challenge misinformation regarding effectiveness and risk, rather than force people through legislation.

I have repeatedly stated that I am not anti-vaccine and reiterated these exact points on numerous occasions to you directly. In fact you have apologised to me in the past for the way in which you have falsely accused me with OTT accusations of 'placing the public in danger', for simply maintaining a moderate and factually based approach to vaccination and for that matter any medical intervention.

On the AZ Vaccine, I repeatedly corrected you regarding the facts in regard to the initial Animal Trials, when you were making false and misleading statements regarding the vaccine. I provided linked evidence to the trial information to confirm this. In fact it was the results from Animal Trials that led Patrick Valance and other senior scientists to make comments regarding the likely effectivity of the vaccine that I have referred to in my opening paragraph.

There was no assumption at all on my part, simply a reference to the facts... That being that a) in Animal Trials the vaccine had been show to limit the worst effects, but not to provide sterilising immunity and b) That the success referenced by AZ and other vaccing producers when quoting vaccine efficacy, did not refer to asymtomatic Covid... Of course, I proved that by linking the vaccine trial protocol (and you were forced to acknowledge the facts at that point) and we have since seen that there is a marked difference between the effectiveness of the vaccine on full immunity vs immunity from the worst symptoms...

I've not been silent on the matter at all.... As I said at the time, I would be and I am, extremely pleased that the vaccine has shown better efficacy than had been expected several months ago. I don't see any particular personal conflict between having a healthy interest and concern about the data, the effectiveness of the vaccine and the benefit of my taking it and then subsequently making a fact based decision to acknowledge that the vaccine is a success.... What I did, was question the veracity of the facts as presented by AZ and I did so with very good reason.... The published results were highly questionable, with the dosing error and mixing of data as well as the fact that it was not clear what the result actually meant...(People like yourself, for example, were asserting that it meant full immunity, when I didn't believe that was the case (in fact I knew it wasn't the case) and therefore felt it misleading).

You seem to be of the opinion that there is some weakness in recognising changing circumstances, rather than simply adopting some kind unwaivering stance in the face of the changing facts? (I'll leave that to folk like you, who seem to struggle with the idea of changing your opinion)....

 

[SEASIDE2020]

Apparently the government are being lobbied by a sizable group connected to people with mental health issues who do not wish the lockdown to be eased any time soon . There would seem to be many who see the lockdown as being a safe haven from the world around us as they see it in " normal " times .They are really worried about the impact on these people when things start to open up . I actually am aware of a whole family who feel that way .

No matter how big this sizeable group is, we are going to come out of lockdown at somepoint whether they like it or not.

 

[BlackpoolsFinest]

People with second homes abroad are allowed to travel. Staggering.

I wonder who this nice little loop hole will benefit.

 

[Lost Seasider]

The staggered opening is absolutely necessary (essential even). It’s something we should have done last time and has cost us dearly as a result.

Sorry, but a staggered opening is exactly what we did last time and it worked well at the time, case numbers being sub 1,000/day for much of the summer.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Firstly - I stated on a single occasion (not repeatedly) that I may choose to rely on my own immune system as opposed to having a vaccine. This was shortly after Patrick Valance had annpounced that the Vaccine was unlikely to confer sterilising immunity and instead the aim of vaccines would be to eliminate the worst symptoms. You are correct that I have changed that view (and I stated very clearly at the time of posting that I would change based on any revision to the facts / medical advice) because a) The issue of Long Covid became more prevalent affecting people in my age category and b) It started to become apparent that there was a 'possibility' that vaccine based immunity was likely to be far effective than had been expected.

I continue to strongly believe that enforced vaccination is the wrong way to go and that individuals should be free to make an informed choice regarding vaccination. As I have said many times I belive the approach should be to promote vaccine use and challenge misinformation regarding effectiveness and risk, rather than force people through legislation.

I have repeatedly stated that I am not anti-vaccine and reiterated these exact points on numerous occasions to you directly. In fact you have apologised to me in the past for the way in which you have falsely accused me with OTT accusations of 'placing the public in danger', for simply maintaining a moderate and factually based approach to vaccination and for that matter any medical intervention.

On the AZ Vaccine, I repeatedly corrected you regarding the facts in regard to the initial Animal Trials, when you were making false and misleading statements regarding the vaccine. I provided linked evidence to the trial information to confirm this. In fact it was the results from Animal Trials that led Patrick Valance and other senior scientists to make comments regarding the likely effectivity of the vaccine that I have referred to in my opening paragraph.

There was no assumption at all on my part, simply a reference to the facts... That being that a) in Animal Trials the vaccine had been show to limit the worst effects, but not to provide sterilising immunity and b) That the success referenced by AZ and other vaccing producers when quoting vaccine efficacy, did not refer to asymtomatic Covid... Of course, I proved that by linking the vaccine trial protocol (and you were forced to acknowledge the facts at that point) and we have since seen that there is a marked difference between the effectiveness of the vaccine on full immunity vs immunity from the worst symptoms...

I've not been silent on the matter at all.... As I said at the time, I would be and I am, extremely pleased that the vaccine has shown better efficacy than had been expected several months ago. I don't see any particular personal conflict between having a healthy interest and concern about the data, the effectiveness of the vaccine and the benefit of my taking it and then subsequently making a fact based decision to acknowledge that the vaccine is a success.... What I did, was question the veracity of the facts as presented by AZ and I did so with very good reason.... The published results were highly questionable, with the dosing error and mixing of data as well as the fact that it was not clear what the result actually meant...(People like yourself, for example, were asserting that it meant full immunity, when I didn't believe that was the case (in fact I knew it wasn't the case) and therefore felt it misleading).

You seem to be of the opinion that there is some weakness in recognising changing circumstances, rather than simply adopting some kind unwaivering stance in the face of the changing facts? (I'll leave that to folk like you, who seem to struggle with the idea of changing your opinion)....

Your words on 14/08/2020;

"I’m guessing a decent proportion of these mask wearing vaccine suckers, have oversized bellies and struggle to get up and down the stairs at home, yet they seek to dictate what choices fit and healthy individuals should make.

A lifetime of burgers and booze cannot be vaccinated away chaps."

later on

"So not only is the vaccine not fully tested, it’s also not actually 100% effective anyway.

So I’m obliged to accept an ineffective, untested vaccine into my own body in order to alleviate a tiny risk of death to me and a slightly greater risk to some extremely unhealthy people?

On that basis, I think I’ll continue to pass, if that’s OK with the fascists?"

later still

"That said, there’s a serious point I’m making here Robbie, which is that there are individuals on this thread calling out my stance and I very much doubt their own lifestyle choices would stand up to comparative scrutiny if put under the microscope...

As for the belly situation, I suspect you’re in good company on here, given the widespread concern on this thread . Perhaps the compulsory implementation of gastric band treatments ( under the threat of imprisonment) for the AVFTT roly poly’s might focus you all on your Public Health responsibilities......"


In fact I'll just link to the thread. You say on there several times that you won't be vaccinated (not a single time), and emphasise several times your self styled status as a super human.

Paying for a vaccine

If a successful one was found (and safe) for cv19 how much would you pay to get it? I would gladly cough up 300 quid

avftt.co.uk

I won't bother to show where you were wrong about AZ, but it's easy enough to find if you look.

Anyway I'm out.
I have sometimes wondered whether you have ever been right about anything. However on the government's approach I have found myself rather strangely in agreement with you. I am now starting to ask myself whether I have got this all wrong

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Your words on 14/08/2020;

"I’m guessing a decent proportion of these mask wearing vaccine suckers, have oversized bellies and struggle to get up and down the stairs at home, yet they seek to dictate what choices fit and healthy individuals should make.

A lifetime of burgers and booze cannot be vaccinated away chaps."

later on

"So not only is the vaccine not fully tested, it’s also not actually 100% effective anyway.

So I’m obliged to accept an ineffective, untested vaccine into my own body in order to alleviate a tiny risk of death to me and a slightly greater risk to some extremely unhealthy people?

On that basis, I think I’ll continue to pass, if that’s OK with the fascists?"

later still

"That said, there’s a serious point I’m making here Robbie, which is that there are individuals on this thread calling out my stance and I very much doubt their own lifestyle choices would stand up to comparative scrutiny if put under the microscope...

As for the belly situation, I suspect you’re in good company on here, given the widespread concern on this thread . Perhaps the compulsory implementation of gastric band treatments ( under the threat of imprisonment) for the AVFTT roly poly’s might focus you all on your Public Health responsibilities......"


In fact I'll just link to the thread. You say on there several times that you won't be vaccinated (not a single time), and emphasise several times your self styled status as a super human.

Paying for a vaccine

If a successful one was found (and safe) for cv19 how much would you pay to get it? I would gladly cough up 300 quid

avftt.co.uk

I won't bother to show where you were wrong about AZ, but it's easy enough to find if you look.

Anyway I'm out.
I have sometimes wondered whether you have ever been right about anything. However on the government's approach I have found myself rather strangely in agreement with you. I am now starting to ask myself whether I have got this all wrong

I'm sure you are Out!!

However why do you feel the need to exhaggerate and bend the truth?

Exactly as I said above, I said that on a single occasion... Saying something a number of times during the same limited thread / discussion is not saying something "Repeatedly". I've never said that prior to or since that thread... Which you well know or you'd have linked it.

You won't bother to show me because you are telling porkies..

I get it... You feel a bit sore because you were shpown up for a bit of a fool and forced to backtrack, when I linked the facts of the trial...

Get over it and move on.... Christ you're not the first person to get something wrong on the internet and you won;t be the last.... Most of us do it regularly.

EDIT: Just on a final note... What do you think it will take for you to stop this weird stalkerlike behaviour towards me?

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

It's a message board where we can exchange opinions. I am not stalking you. If you stop posting shit on here, I will stop pointing it out.

I'm cool with that.... I just don't understand this whole stalky bullshit theme that you've got going on, where we keep going over the same ground... It kind of feels like I've really niggled you and you're struggling to shake it off...

Do you think it will help if we try and repair your damaged ego a bit? Would you like me to perhaps pretend that you were right and apologise for being an anti-vaxxer even though I'm not.... I'm happy to do that if it helps.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

Sorry, but a staggered opening is exactly what we did last time and it worked well at the time, case numbers being sub 1,000/day for much of the summer.

Ah OK... My mistake... I had in mind that we had moved a bit quicker last time, rather than this 5 week approach... Incidentally when I said cost us dearly, I didn't mean in regard to the cirus coming back, but moreso, the fact that we failed to gain a clear understanding of the impact of the seperate measures...... I'm still not sure we've really resolved that TBH.

 

[Lost Seasider]

... Incidentally when I said cost us dearly, I didn't mean in regard to the cirus coming back, but moreso, the fact that we failed to gain a clear understanding of the impact of the seperate measures...... I'm still not sure we've really resolved that TBH.

I doubt it would've made much difference either way, it would've been hard to distinguish between the effect of the measures and the effect of spring/summer, and any information would've been applicable to the older variant rather than B.1.1.7, thus further limiting its utility.

 

[BFC_BFC_BFC]

I doubt it would've made much difference either way, it would've been hard to distinguish between the effect of the measures and the effect of spring/summer, and any information would've been applicable to the older variant rather than B.1.1.7, thus further limiting its utility.

Fair point, perhaps going into the pandemic might have been more useful, but I suppose panic took over....

Anyway, it’s the right approach to stagger it imho.