His ‘Pervness’ Prince Andrew.

SEASIDE2020 said:
Would be rude not to give Levi a maiden ton even if it has a noncing asterisk.
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Whilst I’m ever so humbled it’s not my maiden ton, having knocked a couple last year and a whopping triple ton + around last Christmas according to my ‘Run‘ diary! 🤣🏏
 
Have they actually got a photo of him 'on the job' with this female?
Okay, he was mixing with known sex agents, but is she just after the 'pay-off'?
I'm not defending his way of life, but is this event 100% true?
 
Davepick said:
Have they actually got a photo of him 'on the job' with this female?
Okay, he was mixing with known sex agents, but is she just after the 'pay-off'?
I'm not defending his way of life, but is this event 100% true?
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No one knows. It’s his word against hers, plus any other evidence including from third parties.

But it doesn’t have to be 100% true. In a civil case (assuming it’s the same in the US which I think it probably is) the question is whether it’s likely to be true “on the balance of probabilities”.

It’s also worth making a few other points.

1. Even if they did have sex that doesn’t make him a paedophile. That involves sex with a
Prepubescent child. She was 17.
2. In the U.K. consensual sex with a 17 year old is not a criminal offence (in most cases). It looks as if it is the the US or at least in New York.
3. There’s allegations of sex trafficking by Epstein and Maxwell and that PA knew and was complicit with that. Although sex trafficking usually involves a more sordid scenario than here there’s also the issue of grooming and how vulnerable young girls have their heads turned by older predators (look at the Asian grooming gangs).
4. I believe in her legal action she has claimed she was paid 15k USD by Epstein to have sex with PA. To me that doesn’t seem to rest easily with the picture of sex trafficking that’s being painted. How many victims of sex trafficking are paid by their abusers? That said I suppose it does fall within the definition of grooming where the victims are given “rewards” for compliance. 15k might seem a lot but it was pocket money for Epstein.
5. PA doesn’t have many options. Guiffre has started the claim (because there was a time limit approaching) and within limits can progress it as quickly or as slowly as she likes. I suspect she’ll probably await the outcome of the Maxwell trial before progressing it too hard.
6. None of the above is an attempt to defend PA by the way. My sympathy for him is pretty much non existent. While consensual sex between a bloke in his mid 40s and a 17 year old might not be a criminal offence in the U.K, there’s definitely a moral element at play. However when we start to demand people are punished for moral lapses then you’re on a slippery slope. Let’s face it, it’s not that long ago that getting divorced, having kids out of wedlock or having a same sex partner were considered immoral. It’s dangerous to confuse the law with morality, which I think is what’s behind a lot of the public reaction. That and a healthy dislike of PA.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
No one knows. It’s his word against hers, plus any other evidence including from third parties.

But it doesn’t have to be 100% true. In a civil case (assuming it’s the same in the US which I think it probably is) the question is whether it’s likely to be true “on the balance of probabilities”.

It’s also worth making a few other points.

1. Even if they did have sex that doesn’t make him a paedophile. That involves sex with a
Prepubescent child. She was 17.
2. In the U.K. consensual sex with a 17 year old is not a criminal offence (in most cases). It looks as if it is the the US or at least in New York.
3. There’s allegations of sex trafficking by Epstein and Maxwell and that PA knew and was complicit with that. Although sex trafficking usually involves a more sordid scenario than here there’s also the issue of grooming and how vulnerable young girls have their heads turned by older predators (look at the Asian grooming gangs).
4. I believe in her legal action she has claimed she was paid 15k USD by Epstein to have sex with PA. To me that doesn’t seem to rest easily with the picture of sex trafficking that’s being painted. How many victims of sex trafficking are paid by their abusers? That said I suppose it does fall within the definition of grooming where the victims are given “rewards” for compliance. 15k might seem a lot but it was pocket money for Epstein.
5. PA doesn’t have many options. Guiffre has started the claim (because there was a time limit approaching) and within limits can progress it as quickly or as slowly as she likes. I suspect she’ll probably await the outcome of the Maxwell trial before progressing it too hard.
6. None of the above is an attempt to defend PA by the way. My sympathy for him is pretty much non existent. While consensual sex between a bloke in his mid 40s and a 17 year old might not be a criminal offence in the U.K, there’s definitely a moral element at play. However when we start to demand people are punished for moral lapses then you’re on a slippery slope. Let’s face it, it’s not that long ago that getting divorced, having kids out of wedlock or having a same sex partner were considered immoral. It’s dangerous to confuse the law with morality, which I think is what’s behind a lot of the public reaction. That and a healthy dislike of PA.
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Addressing point number 1...as has been said before the age of consent is above 18 where the offence allegedly took place.
So very much against the law. An offence. No ifs and buts.
Remember, in some other parts of the world, sex is legal at 14 or even 12. So, if an adult from those places had sex here in Britain with a 12 or 14 year old would that be okay? I don't think so.
 
BlackpoolWolves said:
Addressing point number 1...as has been said before the age of consent is above 18 where the offence allegedly took place.
So very much against the law. An offence. No ifs and buts.
Remember, in some other parts of the world, sex is legal at 14 or even 12. So, if an adult from those places had sex here in Britain with a 12 or 14 year old would that be okay? I don't think so.
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Actually without googling I wouldn’t know for sure where it’s claimed the offence or offences took place.

I thought the photo that proves they met was taken in Maxwell’s London flat and the sex occurred after a trip to a London nightclub. In which case it was between a bloke in his 40s and a 17 year old girl. Not attractive (to put it mildly) but not a criminal offence in the U.K. provided it was consensual.

I suspect that’s why the trafficking issue becomes important. The claim is that PA knew the 17 year old was being moved from a jurisdiction where sex would be illegal to one where consensual sex wouldn’t be illegal despite the age difference.

Ultimately IMO it comes down to consent. Is the person giving “consent” mature and capable enough? And is it given freely (even if that’s in return for payment)?
 
I am sure Ghislaine Maxwell will know where there are other photos, videos, evidence on Andrew and others. The issue is whether she will trade these with the Federal authorities in a plea deal in her criminal trial later this yesr
 
bfcpete said:
I am sure Ghislaine Maxwell will know where there are other photos, videos, evidence on Andrew and others. The issue is whether she will trade these with the Federal authorities in a plea deal in her criminal trial later this yesr
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Apparently she’s choosing to stand by PA.
 
Lala said:
Apparently she’s choosing to stand by PA.
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For the moment. But the FBI prosecutors have not yet raised the stakes and the chips are not yet on the table.
And she will also know that the RF has form in this regard. For a thousand years they have been bumping people off, with the last special event involving PP and a white Fiat Uno in a Paris underpass. Allegedly, according to Al Fayed. Only joking (I think).

But, IMHO, I doubt she has much to trade. It was Epstein who was the control freak who installed hidden CCTV recording in all his properties inc the bedrooms, the better to blackmail people with. Therefore, it makes more sense that he had control of the recordings rather than trusting anyone else such as Maxwell.

But, undoubtedly, Epstein would likely have had technicians running and maintaining these systems; where are these people?; we have had only one in Florida turn up recently - Steve Scully who said he saw PA agroping on the Caribbean island. Epstein was far too wealthy to run his own computers generally; unless he took special care himself for special guests?

But since his death, apparently all possible recordings cannot be found. Which means they may be in bank vault that only Epstein had access to. Or they are already in the possession of the FBI which regards the content as either too hot to admit having them, or they are saving them up for their own dark purposes.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
Actually without googling I wouldn’t know for sure where it’s claimed the offence or offences took place.

I thought the photo that proves they met was taken in Maxwell’s London flat and the sex occurred after a trip to a London nightclub. In which case it was between a bloke in his 40s and a 17 year old girl. Not attractive (to put it mildly) but not a criminal offence in the U.K. provided it was consensual.

I suspect that’s why the trafficking issue becomes important. The claim is that PA knew the 17 year old was being moved from a jurisdiction where sex would be illegal to one where consensual sex wouldn’t be illegal despite the age difference.

Ultimately IMO it comes down to consent. Is the person giving “consent” mature and capable enough? And is it given freely (even if that’s in return for payment)?
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You're not taking into account the power relationship. They were handpicked, groomed by Maxwell (allegedly) and then performed the act. I'm surprised you're seeing this as a purely black and white issue...unless I've misunderstood you.
 
southshorepool said:
You're not taking into account the power relationship. They were handpicked, groomed by Maxwell (allegedly) and then performed the act. I'm surprised you're seeing this as a purely black and white issue...unless I've misunderstood you.
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I don’t see it as a black and white issue. I actually see it as a very complicated issue, made more complicated because of people’s dislike of PA in particular. That’s why I thought it might add some clarity if I set out some facts in my earlier post. One of those facts is that consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.K. is not generally a criminal offence no matter how morally questionable it might be. So the issue of where it’s alleged the sex took place is important.

I still think that ultimately it comes down to consent but agree that might not be as clear cut as it seems when you talk about grooming and consider power imbalances between the people involved.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I don’t see it as a black and white issue. I actually see it as a very complicated issue, made more complicated because of people’s dislike of PA in particular. That’s why I thought it might add some clarity if I set out some facts in my earlier post. One of those facts is that consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.K. is not generally a criminal offence no matter how morally questionable it might be. So the issue of where it’s alleged the sex took place is important.

I still think that ultimately it comes down to consent but agree that might not be as clear cut as it seems when you talk about grooming and consider power imbalances between the people involved.
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I'm not sure the dislike of Prince Andrew is relevant as most of the dislike now comes from him associating closely with known sex traffickers.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
I'm not sure the dislike of Prince Andrew is relevant as most of the dislike now comes from him associating closely with known sex traffickers.
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What I’m saying is that the “dislike” (whatever the cause) should be irrelevant.

Is the fact that PA associated with a known sex trafficker (after his conviction) relevant? Absolutely yes, as it makes the allegations that PA had sex as alleged much more likely.

The question then is where the sex took place. If it was in NY then it seems sex with a 17 year old is a criminal offence so PA is bang to rights. If it was in the U.K., then it wasn’t a criminal offence provided it was consensual. That’s when you get into issues about grooming and power relationships and whether consent was freely given.

So not black and white. Actually quite complicated.

But there’s no doubt PA is in a deep hole of his own making.
 
I have not followed this story very closely, not a Royal Family favourite, but what I do recollect was that sex took place allegedly in London and the Pizza Express in Woking somehow played a part in all of this.
 
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