How Fascism Starts

Again just my opinion, but it seems it was a Labour leader who signalled the demise of the Labour Party and more or less prevented them from governing the UK in the foreseeable future. Step up Mr Tony Blair, it was you that gave the Scots and the Welsh their own parliaments but still allowed them to them to elect their Nationalists to the UK Parliament.Net result an immediate loss of seats for the Labour party. Pandora's Box was opened, never to be closed again.
 
Don't forget proroging parliament and changing electoral boundaries to suit.
The judiciary stopped that, which wouldn't happen in a fascist state.

Directly from the Boundary Commission website

"Parliamentary Boundary Commissions are ‘arms length’ public bodies. This means they are ‘sponsored’ by a UK Government department (in our case, the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities), but are outside of direct Ministerial control. The sponsor department provides funding and other resources (staff, accommodation, IT infrastructure, and often other ‘back office’ support), and monitors that those resources are being utilised appropriately and efficiently. However, Government Ministers and officials have no direct input or control over the substantive work of the Commissioners in the reviewing of constituencies and development of proposals and recommendations for change: decisions on those matters are taken by the independent Commissioners, working within a legislative framework of rules established by Parliament."

The legislature make recommendations across all areas of public life after going through the scrutiny of a democratic process; again, this isn't fascism.
 
20th Century Fascism was built around the cult of the individual: Mussolini, Hitler, Franco. Yesterday I watched Boris Johnson deliver a resignation speech in which he blamed his demise on the backbenchers of the Conservative Party. He went on to say that he had been determined to stay in power for the 14 million people who had voted for him in the 2019 GE. So, it was him and nobody but him. His personality had won over the voters and nothing else. Leave aside the electorate's concerns about Corbyn. Leave aside the fact that the Tories attracted all of the Brexit vote. No, it was Boris and Boris alone.

And that, dear posters is how fascism starts. The cult of the individual. The needy politicians who crowd round him for high office in the knowledge that he is their only hope: Raab, Rees-Mogg, Dorries, Patel. Their resultant policies of trying to wreck the BBC and Channel 4 because they weren't 'on message.' Sending asylum seekers to Rwanda - the useless Priti Patel. Where's Heinrich Himmler when you need him.
Reducing the right to protest - surely Dr. Goebbels would be a better bet to see that through, surely?
You think I'm being OTT? Maybe. But this is how fascism starts. I saw people in Wyre on the telly saying they weren't interested in the Conservative Party, that it was Boris they were voting for. Mein Volk mein Reich, Mein Boris?
Sorry long response. I think it is somewhat hyperbolic to suggest the UK is on the road to fascism. Boris, you could say has built a cult of personality and has numerous acolytes that surround him politically and from the public who support him, but he hasn’t captured a critical mass of supporters because the majority see him as utterly incompetent. He is without doubt an authoritarian, definitely a narcissist, and from his public utterances you could determine he is at least sociopathic. He also has a huge sense of entitlement and exceptionalism, and believes himself to be intellectually superior. The reality is he is probably slightly below average intelligence, but his very expensive education has given him the tools to mask his intellectual limitations as expensive private education often does. The traits described are those associated with all dictatorial leaders.

Will he step down from the PM’s role? He may not, forcing the new conservative party leader to either call a general election or potentially forcing a rule change so that the Tory party leader is not automatically the PM (when the Tories are in power). He possibly has enough acolytes in his immediate surroundings that he could try this. It’s not as though he doesn’t have history for law breaking and parliamentary and governance rule breaking. But in the main the people around him are even more dim-witted than he is and fundamentally have no driving doctrine other than personal advancement, and their competence to do anything is a serious barrier to actual fascist rule.

But . . . . . the UK is on a road to a significantly more authoritarian way of life. The police have been gaining more and more powers and are definitely an instrument of state not a public resource, the civil service is being decimated so that ideologically it becomes more aligned to government policy of the day, it’s a conditioning mechanism. Media is already generally aligned with an authoritarian outlook, because the conditioning associated with it (for readers) is beneficial to both government and the media organisations in question. Readers buy the opinions that want to believe in, and often refuse to listen to alternative points of view. One side feeds the other and opposition has to either break the cycle by breaking down the messaging which is largely lies and mistruths or, it adopts the media viewpoint in order to curry favour, or as in the case of Starmer it makes no case for its own point of view at all, hoping that it can avoid criticism. Those media outlets that are not openly promoting an authoritarian point of view either end up promoting false equivalence (the BBC detailed economic analysis of potential Brexit outcomes vs leave means leave or oven ready deals), or the media outlet takes an actual opposition point of view which eventually arrives at a business model which attracts those in opposition and thus only reports one side (the Guardian isn’t there yet, but CNN in the states is – it is as difficult to watch as Fox). The ultimate result is tabloidization and content free news. Media control is of course a primary tool of all fascist regimes.

While the signs might be there for fascism, I think the UK and many other western governments are heading for something different. An authoritarian Elitism; once you have enough wealth you simply buy your way into positions of power or into the circles of power, (which is another characteristic of fascist regimes – at least Franco and Mussolini) and once there manipulate everything you can to stay there. It has I think many of the traits of fascism but it lacks the overt nationalism, racism etc. You look at the non-white Tories currently or recently in high positions, they are not believers necessarily in free-market economies or conservative tradition (whatever they may be – hard work for reward?????) they are all at their very essence elitist, with a general disdain for those not in their circles. Even the dyed in the wool racists at that level will accept them into their circle because of their elite wealth status and usefulness to the cause of elitism.

It’s still a very dangerous path, maybe even more dangerous than fascism, because the signs are there that people are being conditioned into accepting their status in life, we are literally being domesticated into being a resource for elite individuals and corporations; work (for less than it costs) to live, buy stuff, get into debt, use what little assets you have for end of life care, transfer those assets back to the financial elite on death at very low costs, which are then re-sold to the next generation.
 
I a
Sorry long response. I think it is somewhat hyperbolic to suggest the UK is on the road to fascism. Boris, you could say has built a cult of personality and has numerous acolytes that surround him politically and from the public who support him, but he hasn’t captured a critical mass of supporters because the majority see him as utterly incompetent. He is without doubt an authoritarian, definitely a narcissist, and from his public utterances you could determine he is at least sociopathic. He also has a huge sense of entitlement and exceptionalism, and believes himself to be intellectually superior. The reality is he is probably slightly below average intelligence, but his very expensive education has given him the tools to mask his intellectual limitations as expensive private education often does. The traits described are those associated with all dictatorial leaders.

Will he step down from the PM’s role? He may not, forcing the new conservative party leader to either call a general election or potentially forcing a rule change so that the Tory party leader is not automatically the PM (when the Tories are in power). He possibly has enough acolytes in his immediate surroundings that he could try this. It’s not as though he doesn’t have history for law breaking and parliamentary and governance rule breaking. But in the main the people around him are even more dim-witted than he is and fundamentally have no driving doctrine other than personal advancement, and their competence to do anything is a serious barrier to actual fascist rule.

But . . . . . the UK is on a road to a significantly more authoritarian way of life. The police have been gaining more and more powers and are definitely an instrument of state not a public resource, the civil service is being decimated so that ideologically it becomes more aligned to government policy of the day, it’s a conditioning mechanism. Media is already generally aligned with an authoritarian outlook, because the conditioning associated with it (for readers) is beneficial to both government and the media organisations in question. Readers buy the opinions that want to believe in, and often refuse to listen to alternative points of view. One side feeds the other and opposition has to either break the cycle by breaking down the messaging which is largely lies and mistruths or, it adopts the media viewpoint in order to curry favour, or as in the case of Starmer it makes no case for its own point of view at all, hoping that it can avoid criticism. Those media outlets that are not openly promoting an authoritarian point of view either end up promoting false equivalence (the BBC detailed economic analysis of potential Brexit outcomes vs leave means leave or oven ready deals), or the media outlet takes an actual opposition point of view which eventually arrives at a business model which attracts those in opposition and thus only reports one side (the Guardian isn’t there yet, but CNN in the states is – it is as difficult to watch as Fox). The ultimate result is tabloidization and content free news. Media control is of course a primary tool of all fascist regimes.

While the signs might be there for fascism, I think the UK and many other western governments are heading for something different. An authoritarian Elitism; once you have enough wealth you simply buy your way into positions of power or into the circles of power, (which is another characteristic of fascist regimes – at least Franco and Mussolini) and once there manipulate everything you can to stay there. It has I think many of the traits of fascism but it lacks the overt nationalism, racism etc. You look at the non-white Tories currently or recently in high positions, they are not believers necessarily in free-market economies or conservative tradition (whatever they may be – hard work for reward?????) they are all at their very essence elitist, with a general disdain for those not in their circles. Even the dyed in the wool racists at that level will accept them into their circle because of their elite wealth status and usefulness to the cause of elitism.

It’s still a very dangerous path, maybe even more dangerous than fascism, because the signs are there that people are being conditioned into accepting their status in life, we are literally being domesticated into being a resource for elite individuals and corporations; work (for less than it costs) to live, buy stuff, get into debt, use what little assets you have for end of life care, transfer those assets back to the financial elite on death at very low costs, which are then re-sold to the next generation.
I agree with a good deal of your analysis although I believe that nationalism played its part in the Brexit vote and certainly in the campaign narratives of UKIP and elements of the Tory party. I also think that there continues to be a class element to the inclusiveness of ethnic minority individuals in the Tory Party.

As for my O/P, and I will have to shout this in the face of some of the barracking...I DID NOT SAY THAT BRITAIN WAS ON THE ROAD TO FASCISM! I was pointing out that there are elements of Johnson's behaviour, along with the policy direction of a number of his Cabinet, that reflect the culture, social control strategies and superman myths of mid-20th century fascist regimes. You have expanded upon these characteristics yourself. I was prompted to write the O/P following Johnson's resignation speech in which he sought to speak over the heads of his Parliamentary Party in asserting that his authority was given directly by the 14 million Tory voters at the 2019 GE. Whilst that is total hogwash it is very fascistic in its concept.
 
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The OP by the Obsessive is utter nonsense, argument fuller of holes than a Swiss Cheese. If I was this obsessed and angry I don’t think I’d just try to win an argument against cunts like me by typing for hours and hours on an obscure poorly read message board….I think I’d feel I was wasting my time……unless it was getting centuries….which he ain’t
 
No.
Fascism gains ground:

When Capitalists destroy your economy.
When Communists destroy your society.
When Elites destroy the working class.
When the average man can't put food on his table.
When the people of a nation are replaced in their millions by incompatible foreigners.
When generations are brain washed from the cradle to believe that their people are intrinsically evil.
When pensioners have to choose between heating or eating whilst new arrivals are showered with state resources.
When state media glorifies medically mutilating your children and leaving them a life of sterility and misery.

Boris is a globalist lefty, but the fire is rising.

The next 20 years are going to be horrendous, but from the ashes, a glorious nation will arise.
“The next 20 years are going to be horrendous”……utter nonsense and dramatic Gaylord stuff
 
It’s a beautiful morning... brought the cows in for milking at 5am ... birds singing... a pair of deer sprinting across the fields... mist obscuring the top of the Tangerine Tower in the distance... in at 7 to make my wife’s breakfast... tucked into my own bacon toasty with a nice brew......then read this depressing shit!!!! ...where’s a rope....before anyone says it ... no I won’t read anymore AVFTT politics forum today.Try and enjoy your life .. ffs👍
 
You do a fair impression.
But I don’t. You’re comment is just the equivalent of some one saying who has been criticised for something saying “so are you”

anyway it’s gonna be another scorcher and I ain’t spending it wanking on about politics in here but you knock yourself out 👍
 
It’s a beautiful morning... brought the cows in for milking at 5am ... birds singing... a pair of deer sprinting across the fields... mist obscuring the top of the Tangerine Tower in the distance... in at 7 to make my wife’s breakfast... tucked into my own bacon toasty with a nice brew......then read this depressing shit!!!! ...where’s a rope....before anyone says it ... no I won’t read anymore AVFTT politics forum today.Try and enjoy your life .. ffs👍
Hope your wife is faring well… sounds like you’re looking after her… 🧡
 
20th century communism was built around the cult of the individual and the absolute power of the individual and to keep the masses in their place by way of fear.
Sorry 20s I missed this one. I disagree to an extent. Stalin created a 'defender of the Motherland' personna to lead the war effort. That apart, Soviet Communism was quite different - aside from the overwhelming fact that it was a repressive autocratic regime.
 
Sorry 20s I missed this one. I disagree to an extent. Stalin created a 'defender of the Motherland' personna to lead the war effort. That apart, Soviet Communism was quite different - aside from the overwhelming fact that it was a repressive autocratic regime.
Sorry, not getting into it, as Im not fussed. I just wanted to write a post in the same manner you did from the opposite side of the fence. Not convinced I had total belief in what I said anyway. Have a nice day.
 
Sorry, not getting into it, as Im not fussed. I just wanted to write a post in the same manner you did from the opposite side of the fence. Not convinced I had total belief in what I said anyway. Have a nice day.
I'm not the world expert 20s, but I read a lot.
 
You know I am come on here because it is a football supporters website…I am sick of all the political shite,including what you have just posted,so that’s me off here for good.
So don’t look at this side, simps. L8ters.🤭
 
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“The next 20 years are going to be horrendous”……utter nonsense and dramatic Gaylord stuff
Homophobe.

Nationalism is on the rise. People are sick and tired of this forced globalism. The post-WW2 liberal order will be a mere blip in the annals of human history.
 
Your post in the thread How Fascism Starts was deleted. Reason: Can you keep the anti-immigrant stuff to yourself, thanks.

Who moderates this forum? Apparently it is verboten to be against immigration. Why is this?
 
The thread is about the wsy that governments can introduce policies that can be considered fascistic and the way that a leader's direct appeal to the public, over the heads of his party, can be seen to be doing the same thing. This is not a thread about immigration. If posters want to go there, please start a new thread.
 
The thread is about the wsy that governments can introduce policies that can be considered fascistic and the way that a leader's direct appeal to the public, over the heads of his party, can be seen to be doing the same thing. This is not a thread about immigration. If posters want to go there, please start a new thread.
Genuine question, what is your personal definition of fascism?
 
Genuine question, what is your personal definition of fascism?
It is defined by its characteristics: a far-right, autocratic, ultra-nationalist ideology that favours control through militarism and an appeal to a limited and mythical traditionalism based on conquest and racial purity.
 
It is defined by its characteristics: a far-right, autocratic, ultra-nationalist ideology that favours control through militarism and an appeal to a limited and mythical traditionalism based on conquest and racial purity.
Thank you. Not a bad attempt at a definition. Lets break it down in context then:

Far-right: certainly not applicable to Boris. Any glance at his policies during his time in power show that. Massive increases in state handouts being the most obvious example but his social policy isn't even moderately right-wing.

Autocratic: Perhaps applicable, though you have in your previous post lambasted the idea of appealing to the people as the source of his power as being "fascistic", at worst it is populist and arguably even a democratic principle.

Control through militarism: I must have missed the part where we massively boosted the size and prominence of the armed forces, created quasi-military youth organisations, and brought back national service.

Traditionalism: he is fully on-board with gender ideology, LGBT, abortion on demand, and no-fault divorce. Very traditional...

Conquest and racial purity: Let me repeat a point from my previous deleted post; his government issued 1,000,000 permanent visas in the last 12 months. Go browse a .gov.uk website for a bit, you will barely see a straight, white male on there.

The Conservative Party are, at worst centrist, but in reality soft-left-liberals. Your own definitions show up the extent to which your original post is simply melodramatic hyperbole.

Johnson made his appeal to the people directly because he has completely lost support of the parliamentary wing of the party, to a level that is disproportionate to the support he has lost of those who voted for him.

Where does sovereignty reside in a democracy?
 
So profound a question that you had to attempt to ask it 3 times...

The pendulum always swings back eventually. It has been dragged so far left that when it swings it will go further than ever.
at which point do you think it had been dragged so far left - becaus ethe UK hasnt had a remotely left leaning government since the early seventies.
 
Thank you. Not a bad attempt at a definition. Lets break it down in context then:

Far-right: certainly not applicable to Boris. Any glance at his policies during his time in power show that. Massive increases in state handouts being the most obvious example but his social policy isn't even moderately right-wing.

Autocratic: Perhaps applicable, though you have in your previous post lambasted the idea of appealing to the people as the source of his power as being "fascistic", at worst it is populist and arguably even a democratic principle.

Control through militarism: I must have missed the part where we massively boosted the size and prominence of the armed forces, created quasi-military youth organisations, and brought back national service.

Traditionalism: he is fully on-board with gender ideology, LGBT, abortion on demand, and no-fault divorce. Very traditional...

Conquest and racial purity: Let me repeat a point from my previous deleted post; his government issued 1,000,000 permanent visas in the last 12 months. Go browse a .gov.uk website for a bit, you will barely see a straight, white male on there.

The Conservative Party are, at worst centrist, but in reality soft-left-liberals. Your own definitions show up the extent to which your original post is simply melodramatic hyperbole.

Johnson made his appeal to the people directly because he has completely lost support of the parliamentary wing of the party, to a level that is disproportionate to the support he has lost of those who voted for him.

Where does sovereignty reside in a democracy?
There is a thing called context. In order to justify your weak argument - or intentionally contrary argument - you run a coach and six through my original context. Allow me to explain:

In my O/P I referred to the way that fascism begins. Now, I have some pretty healthy cabbages growing in my raised beds this year but I absolutely guarantee that they didn't drop into my hand out of the seed packet all big, green, round and recognisable as cabbages. No, they began as seeds. And, just like the seeds of a plant, the seeds of a political concept need to grow and to develop. To do so they need the right conditions and encouragement from the environment in which they grow.

Take Putin. He took advantage of his deep knowledge of the KGB and of the State apparatus to be of use to the oligarchs who made a fortune from Russia's natural resources during the 'wild west' period at the end of the Soviet Union. Once he became President he rewarded his close friends by giving them extensive legal rights over those resources. In turn, this consolidated his power and developed the oligarchs' dependance on his position for their continuing wealth and prestige. Since then he has subverted the Russian constitution to compound his position, first through the office of Prime Minister and latterly through the office of President once more.

These things take time but, more than that, they need either the active support of a loud part of the electorate or more disturbingly, the wilful acquiescence of a large part of the electorate.

My conjecture is that by appealing to what he saw as a pro-Boris electorate over the heads of the Conservative Party, he was insidiously trying to plant in the minds of the public the idea of Boris, over and above his party. That is fascistic in its nature.

I also saw the threatened interference with national broadcasters as fascistic, along with the legislatve penalties against types of protest. Add to that the seeds of British exceptionalism that has raised its head during his time in office and the threatened moves against asylum seekers, then we begin to see other fascistic traits budding.

So, a full-blown fascist state? Of course not. The development of a far -right party getting wide support across the country? No. But certain ideas, policies and concepts have shown themselves sufficient for me to say that this how fascism can  take root.
 
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Thank you. Not a bad attempt at a definition. Lets break it down in context then:

Far-right: certainly not applicable to Boris. Any glance at his policies during his time in power show that. Massive increases in state handouts being the most obvious example but his social policy isn't even moderately right-wing.

Autocratic: Perhaps applicable, though you have in your previous post lambasted the idea of appealing to the people as the source of his power as being "fascistic", at worst it is populist and arguably even a democratic principle.

Control through militarism: I must have missed the part where we massively boosted the size and prominence of the armed forces, created quasi-military youth organisations, and brought back national service.

Traditionalism: he is fully on-board with gender ideology, LGBT, abortion on demand, and no-fault divorce. Very traditional...

Conquest and racial purity: Let me repeat a point from my previous deleted post; his government issued 1,000,000 permanent visas in the last 12 months. Go browse a .gov.uk website for a bit, you will barely see a straight, white male on there.

The Conservative Party are, at worst centrist, but in reality soft-left-liberals. Your own definitions show up the extent to which your original post is simply melodramatic hyperbole.

Johnson made his appeal to the people directly because he has completely lost support of the parliamentary wing of the party, to a level that is disproportionate to the support he has lost of those who voted for him.

Where does sovereignty reside in a democracy?
Far-right:

The reality Boris has very few real policies that are not specifically about him retaining his position, if he needs to appeal to racist nationalists then he will and has. The massive increases in state handouts were necessary, and based on the problems with the banking bailout where the vast majority of the money was used to prop up a broken system and continue to pay the bankers bonuses the only way to keep the economy even marginally afloat was to insert money directly to the lower levels of the economic strata. It was still massively abused by the very wealthy and major corporations though. Did Boris even have a social policy?

If it is this from the manifesto then:


Extra funding for the NHS, with 50,000 more nurses and 50 million more GP surgery appointments a year – empty statement no actual policies developed and cash figures were massively manipulated, and he bought numerous people into cabinet who are all for much wider privatisation of the NHS.

20,000 more police and tougher sentencing for criminals – more police the go to policy for those on the right

An Australian-style points-based system to control immigration – not a problem in itself but the way cabinet colleagues were framing it was specifically racist.

Millions more invested every week in science, schools, apprenticeships and infrastructure while controlling debt. empty statement – in fact the changes made were increasing student tuition costs, reducing access to student loans and increasing debt repayments – the only beneficiary in that case being the banks.

Reaching Net Zero by 2050 with investment in clean energy solutions and green infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions and pollution. Empty statement.

We will not raise the rate of income tax, VAT or National Insurance. They did.

Autocratic: Perhaps applicable, though you have in your previous post lambasted the idea of appealing to the people as the source of his power as being "fascistic", at worst it is populist and arguably even a democratic principle.

Boris is an autocrat and the worse type, a disinterested autocrat. He is simply concerned about his own position. The source of whatever power he had was in the media particularly right leaning, libertarian free market biased, social society opposition.

Control through militarism: I must have missed the part where we massively boosted the size and prominence of the armed forces, created quasi-military youth organisations, and brought back national service.

The increasing militarisation of the police force and their additional powers, the call for more armed officers, additional stop and search powers, purchasing water canon for use on the public whilst Mayor of London, specifically illegal under British law. Recent restrictions on demonstrations, and additional legal powers for police, he has unjustifiably prorogued parliament, and of course was partying like it was 1999 whilst at the same the old bill were going about threatening all and sundry for going to funerals. Boris has a disdain for law and order himself but expects the population to be cowed under a strong police force that has little or no accountability.

Traditionalism: he is fully on-board with gender ideology, LGBT, abortion on demand, and no-fault divorce. Very traditional...

Boris has made numerous comments against gays in the military and stated that police were cowed by the Macpherson report, he has been critical of single mothers, working women, is fundamentally racist, Letterboxes and pikaninnies comes quickly to mind. The fact that he has been divorced three times has sired numerous children out of wedlock just points to an individual who has no moral guidelines at all particularly when it is read in conjunction with his comments, That is a traditional autocratic approach do as I say not as I do . . . . . very traditional

Conquest and racial purity: Let me repeat a point from my previous deleted post; his government issued 1,000,000 permanent visas in the last 12 months. Go browse a .gov.uk website for a bit, you will barely see a straight, white male on there.

No they didn’t - the figure is actually less than a quarter of a million working visas of which just 37,000 were unskilled (government figures). The number of visas also includes dependents of those granted working visas.

The Conservative Party are, at worst centrist, but in reality soft-left-liberals. Your own definitions show up the extent to which your original post is simply melodramatic hyperbole.

If you think the BJ government is centrist what would even constitute a right leaning government. I fail to see how you can even contemplate that this last government were soft left liberals, unless you are simply in favour of actual fascism, with all of its attendant actions.

Johnson made his appeal to the people directly because he has completely lost support of the parliamentary wing of the party, to a level that is disproportionate to the support he has lost of those who voted for him.

BJ was never supported popularly by the British public for any length of his time in office, he had two periods where he had positive approval ratings a couple of months from june 2019 and a couple of months from may 2020. His disapproval ratings have often topped 70%. There is probably a good 25% of the population who will vote Tory no matter what. Actual boris supporters wer genuinely thin on the ground.

This introduction to an article in Politico perfectly sums up the Boris problem.

Boris Johnson became the British prime minister because the Conservative party felt they had no other choice. They were, in summer 2019, on the verge of splitting — with no Parliamentary majority, no agreement on a deal to leave the EU, and the prospect of an election against a left-wing Labour leader who they felt represented an existential risk to the country. They turned to Johnson as a last resort, knowing full well his reputation for dishonesty and lack of material career achievements. But he was the only Member of Parliament (MP) who had both campaigned for Brexit and was reasonably popular with potential Conservative voters. So in desperation they took the plunge.


The hope was that he would accept being a charismatic frontman while some sensible grown-ups made the decisions. But it quickly became apparent this wasn’t going to happen. Instead we saw an extraordinarily shambolic administration, with no agenda, making announcements mostly designed to appeal to tabloid newspapers. It’s hard to think of any important or useful initiatives that emerged from his government over the past two and a half years on domestic or economic policy.


Where does sovereignty reside in a democracy?
First of all do you think it doesn’t and secondly you would need to define both sovereignty and democracy to really answer that and going to Miriam Webster or Google Dictionary isn’t going to get you the definitions?

I’m kind of hoping that your comments are just simply wind ups, but I get the feeling they aren’t.
 
There is a thing called context. In order to justify your weak argument - or intentionally contrary argument - you run a coach and six through my original context. Allow me to explain:

In my O/P I referred to the way that fascism begins. Now, I have some pretty healthy cabbages growing in my raised beds this year but I absolutely guarantee that they didn't drop into my hand out of the seed packet all big, green, round and recognisable as cabbages. No, they began as seeds. And, just like the seeds of a plant, the seeds of a political concept need to grow and to develop. To do so they need the right conditions and encouragement from the environment in which they grow.

Take Putin. He took advantage of his deep knowledge of the KGB and of the State apparatus to be of use to the oligarchs who made a fortune from Russia's natural resources during the 'wild west' period at the end of the Soviet Union. Once he became President he rewarded his close friends by giving them extensive legal rights over those resources. In turn, this consolidated his power and developed the oligarchs' dependance on his position for their continuing wealth and prestige. Since then he has subverted the Russian constitution to compound his position, first through the office of Prime Minister and latterly through the office of President once more.

These things take time but, more than that, they need either the active support of a loud part of the electorate or more disturbingly, the wilful acquiescence of a large part of the electorate.

My conjecture is that by appealing to what he saw as a pro-Boris electorate over the heads of the Conservative Party, he was insidiously trying to plant in the minds of the public the idea of Boris, over and above his party. That is fascistic in its nature.

I also saw the threatened interference with national broadcasters as fascistic, along with the legislatve penalties against types of protest. Add to that the seeds of British exceptionalism that has raised its head during his time in office and the threatened moves against asylum seekers, then we begin to see other fascistic traits budding.

So, a full-blown fascist state? Of course not. The development of a far -right party getting wide support across the country? No. But certain ideas, policies and concepts have shown themselves sufficient try for me to say that this can be how fascism takes root.
as much as i agree with the danger of the current government and the potential danger of the next one, and i get where you are coming from, i still think its a bit hyperbolic to refer to it as even fascistic in context. Autocratic yes, dangerous very, unnaccountable absolutely. The reason is that it gives some of those who have a faith based and dogmatic political leaning whether left or right to dismiss what is currently happening as even problematic or to make the argument seem ludicrous. I would agree that it has fascistic undertones in that the popular support (for what there is) is based on attracting racists, nationalists and other undesirables.
 
as much as i agree with the danger of the current government and the potential danger of the next one, and i get where you are coming from, i still think its a bit hyperbolic to refer to it as even fascistic in context. Autocratic yes, dangerous very, unnaccountable absolutely. The reason is that it gives some of those who have a faith based and dogmatic political leaning whether left or right to dismiss what is currently happening as even problematic or to make the argument seem ludicrous. I would agree that it has fascistic undertones in that the popular support (for what there is) is based on attracting racists, nationalists and other undesirables.
I'm not. I am seeing fascistic type policies (one or two) coupled with Boris Johnson's direct appeal to a public that he thinks is in tune with him, over the heads of his party. Those fleeting elements have a fascistic flavour or can have if allowed to develop that way.
 
These things take time but, more than that, they need either the active support of a loud part of the electorate or more disturbingly, the wilful acquiescence of a large part of the electorate.
So what you are saying is that fascism would be popular with the electorate? Surely in a democracy, sovereignty lies with the will of the people. IF fascism was what people want, why would that be a negative situation? You do believe in democracy don't you?

So, a full-blown fascist state? Of course not. The development of a far -right party getting wide support across the country? No.
Like I said, melodramatic hyperbole. This entire post could have just consisted of the snippet above.

I would agree that it has fascistic undertones in that the popular support (for what there is) is based on attracting racists, nationalists and other undesirables.
If 60% of the population of the country were committed nationalists and racists, would it be correct for the government to represent those views?

I'm going to make the assumption that your answer is no. The simple fact is that most people don't genuinely believe in democratic principles, only in the idea that democracy provides a blanket under which to contain liberalism; a facade that gives a veneer of respectability to their own worldviews whilst excluding those other worldviews that you dislike.

Left/right is a false paradigm: Liberal/illiberal is the real dividing line. I wouldn't describe myself as a fascist, but I am absolutely illiberal in my worldview.
 
Withdrawal from the European Court of Human rights is a move towards a more illiberal, repressive state. I think Russia and Greece under the military regime 1969-1974 have been the only countries to withdraw since its inception.
As is deporting asylum seekers to Ruanda.
Constant lying about issues in government, now being repeated in the Tory leadership elections, so truths are denied. Aiming to get rid of Channel 4 as it has a degree of independence in challenging politicians. All of this is worrying.
 
So what you are saying is that fascism would be popular with the electorate? Surely in a democracy, sovereignty lies with the will of the people. IF fascism was what people want, why would that be a negative situation? You do believe in democracy don't you?


Like I said, melodramatic hyperbole. This entire post could have just consisted of the snippet above.


If 60% of the population of the country were committed nationalists and racists, would it be correct for the government to represent those views?

I'm going to make the assumption that your answer is no. The simple fact is that most people don't genuinely believe in democratic principles, only in the idea that democracy provides a blanket under which to contain liberalism; a facade that gives a veneer of respectability to their own worldviews whilst excluding those other worldviews that you dislike.

Left/right is a false paradigm: Liberal/illiberal is the real dividing line. I wouldn't describe myself as a fascist, but I am absolutely illiberal in my worldview.
I have explained my position as fully as I need and quite extensively. Those willing to understand my thoughts have signalled their understanding. Obviously none of it has been to convince you as you continually need to misinterpret what I write. That is your prerogative.
 
If 60% of the population of the country were committed nationalists and racists, would it be correct for the government to represent those views?

I'm going to make the assumption that your answer is no. The simple fact is that most people don't genuinely believe in democratic principles, only in the idea that democracy provides a blanket under which to contain liberalism; a facade that gives a veneer of respectability to their own worldviews whilst excluding those other worldviews that you dislike.

Left/right is a false paradigm: Liberal/illiberal is the real dividing line. I wouldn't describe myself as a fascist, but I am absolutely illiberal in my worldview.
The population can be conditioned into general fascistic beliefs, and it doesnt take very much. A very large proportion believe that immigration is a massive issue in the UK it isnt, its an an issue that needs to be properly resolved, but poverty, homelessness, a failing NHS, a failing education system are all much more pressing issues and are not really major concerns across the mass population. And, ill also add the UK has been governed from the basis of a minority for a very long time, get thirty percent onside maybe less and the system falls into line with the aid of a compliant state security apparatus.

an interesting assertion - most people dont genuinly believe in democratic principles - im not sure how you back up that claim - and Pew Research (amongst others) seems to suggest otherwise. A majority of people when polled believe democracy is the most important thing to protect. I will add i dont think that most people understand what democracy is or should be. There are many people in places like Russia, and a lot of the middle eastern countries who believe they live in a democratic society and they obviously don't. The sentence I've highlighted above makes no sense. Liberalism is the idea of tolerance and acceptance of others. The word liberal has also been warped to mean more or less anything. Dennis Prager an ultra conservative, right wing religious commentator in the US is one of many like minded individuals who have adopted the moniker of liberal to legitimise their opinions on religion and ultra free market economic policy. I would also say that the current woke warriors are also not liberals.

The highlighted phrase is something I think I've heard Jordan Peterson say, which wuld explain why it makes no sense.

Left / right is a false paradigm, that i agree with, liberal / illiberal is one aspect of worldview. participation and contribution is another, individualism vs community is another.

Your last phrase that you are absolutely illiberal is a brave statement, but one which fundamentally devalues anything you argue for, because you have no ability to view other opinions or even plain facts outside of your personal prejudices, I dont think that is something to be proud of.
 
Sorry long response. I think it is somewhat hyperbolic to suggest the UK is on the road to fascism. Boris, you could say has built a cult of personality and has numerous acolytes that surround him politically and from the public who support him, but he hasn’t captured a critical mass of supporters because the majority see him as utterly incompetent. He is without doubt an authoritarian, definitely a narcissist, and from his public utterances you could determine he is at least sociopathic. He also has a huge sense of entitlement and exceptionalism, and believes himself to be intellectually superior. The reality is he is probably slightly below average intelligence, but his very expensive education has given him the tools to mask his intellectual limitations as expensive private education often does. The traits described are those associated with all dictatorial leaders.

Will he step down from the PM’s role? He may not, forcing the new conservative party leader to either call a general election or potentially forcing a rule change so that the Tory party leader is not automatically the PM (when the Tories are in power). He possibly has enough acolytes in his immediate surroundings that he could try this. It’s not as though he doesn’t have history for law breaking and parliamentary and governance rule breaking. But in the main the people around him are even more dim-witted than he is and fundamentally have no driving doctrine other than personal advancement, and their competence to do anything is a serious barrier to actual fascist rule.

But . . . . . the UK is on a road to a significantly more authoritarian way of life. The police have been gaining more and more powers and are definitely an instrument of state not a public resource, the civil service is being decimated so that ideologically it becomes more aligned to government policy of the day, it’s a conditioning mechanism. Media is already generally aligned with an authoritarian outlook, because the conditioning associated with it (for readers) is beneficial to both government and the media organisations in question. Readers buy the opinions that want to believe in, and often refuse to listen to alternative points of view. One side feeds the other and opposition has to either break the cycle by breaking down the messaging which is largely lies and mistruths or, it adopts the media viewpoint in order to curry favour, or as in the case of Starmer it makes no case for its own point of view at all, hoping that it can avoid criticism. Those media outlets that are not openly promoting an authoritarian point of view either end up promoting false equivalence (the BBC detailed economic analysis of potential Brexit outcomes vs leave means leave or oven ready deals), or the media outlet takes an actual opposition point of view which eventually arrives at a business model which attracts those in opposition and thus only reports one side (the Guardian isn’t there yet, but CNN in the states is – it is as difficult to watch as Fox). The ultimate result is tabloidization and content free news. Media control is of course a primary tool of all fascist regimes.

While the signs might be there for fascism, I think the UK and many other western governments are heading for something different. An authoritarian Elitism; once you have enough wealth you simply buy your way into positions of power or into the circles of power, (which is another characteristic of fascist regimes – at least Franco and Mussolini) and once there manipulate everything you can to stay there. It has I think many of the traits of fascism but it lacks the overt nationalism, racism etc. You look at the non-white Tories currently or recently in high positions, they are not believers necessarily in free-market economies or conservative tradition (whatever they may be – hard work for reward?????) they are all at their very essence elitist, with a general disdain for those not in their circles. Even the dyed in the wool racists at that level will accept them into their circle because of their elite wealth status and usefulness to the cause of elitism.

It’s still a very dangerous path, maybe even more dangerous than fascism, because the signs are there that people are being conditioned into accepting their status in life, we are literally being domesticated into being a resource for elite individuals and corporations; work (for less than it costs) to live, buy stuff, get into debt, use what little assets you have for end of life care, transfer those assets back to the financial elite on death at very low costs, which are then re-sold to the next generation.
Great post. Quinton Hogg/Lord Hailsham was maybe prescient when he warned about an ``elective dictatorship``.
 
Great post. Quinton Hogg/Lord Hailsham was maybe prescient when he warned about an ``elective dictatorship``.
Your last phrase that you are absolutely illiberal is a brave statement, but one which fundamentally devalues anything you argue for, because you have no ability to view other opinions or even plain facts outside of your personal prejudices, I dont think that is something to be proud of.

Quite.
 
There is a school of thought amongst historians that fascism was an early 20th century ideology that isn’t relevant in the 21st century.
 
There is a school of thought amongst historians that fascism was an early 20th century ideology that isn’t relevant in the 21st century.
That school of thought has a point but only in the context that fascism manifested itself at that time. The environment in which Italian Spanish and German fascism was born, nurtured and thrived was a very specific one: the fallout from the First World War including the fall of empires and the redrawing of nation states; the Russian revolution, the collapse of Western economies, the vacuum of government in Italy and Germany. In that sense, fascism is unlikely to reappear in the guises seen then. However, it does not stop the political concepts of fascism from predicating themselves in other, modern authoritarian regimes. I have already cited Putin's Russia. Other, First World countries, are not exempt from being affected.
 
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A excellent analysis of the way things are. I would say to all traditional Tory voters, the billionaires have stolen your party. There is no party of Churchill left. If you vote for this mendacious, manipulative, treacherous cabal, you are threatening the very Englishness you purport to champion. Honestly, Labour is the way to decent Government, for a decent British population. The Tories are traitors to Britain. The want all power to go to the super-rich, who aren't even British by the way.
 
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