Is attitude more important than skill

T

tangysider

Well-known member
Accepting to be a professional footballer you need to have a basic level of skill, but beyond that is a player's attitude more important than skill.
Take 2 players
Kaikai was one of the most skilful players we had in our recent past, yet he is not even a regular starter in L1. I know he scored quite a few goals and assists but frustratingly could have offered so much more.
Keogh has lost his speed if he actually ever had any, but Ii am sure would rather take a thunderbolt of a shot into his face that allow the ball to pass him. I think that character is the reason he has won fans round and has been from the beginning of the season a regular starter.
 
yep, desire and the will to win will take you a long way in football.
 
tangysider said:
Accepting to be a professional footballer you need to have a basic level of skill, but beyond that is a player's attitude more important than skill.
Take 2 players
Kaikai was one of the most skilful players we had in our recent past, yet he is not even a regular starter in L1. I know he scored quite a few goals and assists but frustratingly could have offered so much more.
Keogh has lost his speed if he actually ever had any, but Ii am sure would rather take a thunderbolt of a shot into his face that allow the ball to pass him. I think that character is the reason he has won fans round and has been from the beginning of the season a regular starter.
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Attitude, character, confidence. Yes. Many kids have the talent, but only a few have the confidence and determination to make it. I watched the episode of Fever Pitch last night that focused on Keith Gillespie, and his move from United in a swap for Andy Cole age 19, and I think it was a perfect example. He was part of the 92 group and you saw Beckham and as a lad and you could see the difference in character. Gillespie never looked sure of himself, Beckham looked supremely sure. Ferguson presumably felt he lacked something, people were shocked that he was allowed to leave like that. Coaches see the whole person. This happens in every walk of life.
 
I for one never doubted Keoghl, he received a lot of stick just for being a little rusty at the beginning. Same with TJJ, he's a fighter but still lacking something but he will get there, he has the right attitude.
 
I think it was Graham Westley who coined the acronym AIMITA and had it plastered around the place at Deepdale (don't quote me as I'm not 100% it was his) Attitude Is More Important Than Ability.
I would tend to agree. Ability is nothing without the right amount of application.
 
tangysider said:
Accepting to be a professional footballer you need to have a basic level of skill, but beyond that is a player's attitude more important than skill.
Take 2 players
Kaikai was one of the most skilful players we had in our recent past, yet he is not even a regular starter in L1. I know he scored quite a few goals and assists but frustratingly could have offered so much more.
Keogh has lost his speed if he actually ever had any, but Ii am sure would rather take a thunderbolt of a shot into his face that allow the ball to pass him. I think that character is the reason he has won fans round and has been from the beginning of the season a regular starter.
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Tangy

All the desire in the world will get you nowhere but you did assume a basic level of skill so I will quote Carl Froch on this one.

No doubt that he had an amazing career but I think it's fair to say that he wasn't the best technically and others would have had more natural talent:

"Hard work will always beat talent IF talent doesn't work hard".
 
You can have all the desire and application in the world, but without talent you will be limited and vice versa…

Tbh, I think the whole attitude/application is worth more mantra is just something that people with limited ability tell themselves to make them feel better in any case.

Some of the best players of all time have had appalling attitude / application…Ability will always shine and the most talented are often the most flawed
 
Totally agree bfc.
I think it depends what your wanting and what you mean by attitude. If it's a case of immensely talented creative player but doesn't work hard then I'd take him all day and set my team up to account for that
 
Amateur football leagues are full of very talented, skillful players and the main reason they never made it as a professional was down to attitude, commitment or application. I've played with some great footballers, who never made the grade and there was no other explanation I could think of.
 
They are also full of people with fantastic attitudes but limited in their ability.
Ultimately I think you need both but If I had to pick, id prefer a great natural talent with dodgy attitude than a great attitude with dodgy talent.
 
Brett scores for fun said:
Amateur football leagues are full of very talented, skillful players and the main reason they never made it as a professional was down to attitude, commitment or application. I've played with some great footballers, who never made the grade and there was no other explanation I could think of.
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Just not good enough most likely… not many people are.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Talent beats attitude as long as the talent puts in some effort.
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Nick Kyrgios is a prime example. He puts in bare minimal effort and competes with the best in the world. When he can't be arsed he loses.

Imagine if he did give a toss, he'd be a grand slam winner definitely.
 
voyeur said:
Actually I think some people are.
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Born with talent, or with the right genetics, support growing up and willingness to work hard ?
I’d agree that greats such as Mozart were prodigious as a child and therefore can be seen as geniuses or born differently/ talented. Outside of that top 1%, I think for the majority that people see as talented, those people have worked very hard and put in thousands of hours work.
I always like to think of Beckham’s response when asked if he felt lucky being talented with free kicks etc- he responded indignantly that training before and after other players had long since gone back to the changing rooms meant he worked hard and harder than others.
Talent is absolutely nothing without hard work.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
Born with talent, or with the right genetics, support growing up and willingness to work hard ?
I’d agree that greats such as Mozart were prodigious as a child and therefore can be seen as geniuses or born differently/ talented. Outside of that top 1%, I think for the majority that people see as talented, those people have worked very hard and out in thousands of hours work.
I always like to think of Beckham’s response when asked if he felt lucky being talented with free kicks etc- he responded that training before and after other players had long since gone back to the changing rooms meant he worked hard and harder than others.
Talent is absolutely nothing without hard work.
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Of course, you need to put the hours in, but we are all born with different genes, bodies and brains. Many people work incredibly hard at something for years and never rise above mediocrity. Some people achieve greatness with remarkably little effort.
 
Talent doesn’t require hard work… that’s the whole point of being talented… hard things are easy because you’re talented…

You can work hard from dawn till dusk for your entire life, but it won’t make you a pro footballer, unless you’ve got the raw talent to begin with…
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Talent doesn’t require hard work… that’s the whole point of being talented… hard things are easy because you’re talented…

You can work hard from dawn till dusk for your entire life, but it won’t make you a pro footballer, unless you’ve got the raw talent to begin with…
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Agree to some point, and it's the difference between the Neil Bishop's and Ronaldo's of the world. I think 'raw talent' if very hard to define though. Physical and mental advantages due to genetics and then applied to a skill somebody has an interest in and willing to improve, along with support etc is a mix of things. Plus starting as young as possible.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Just not good enough most likely… not many people are.
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Maybe but how many professional players have we seen at Bloomfield Road who make us say "how the F.... did he become a footballer, I've played with far better on a Sunday?"
I played with one excellent old school, tough CF, who'd been a regular in Tranmere Reserves, scoring goals for fun, but Ron Yeates for some reason, just didn't like him, so wouldn't play him in the first team. He admits this caused him to develop a bad attitude, which affected his game and resulted in him joining the Police (where he played for their England & GB teams).
It's a funny old game 😖
 
Larryknows said:
Totally agree bfc.
I think it depends what your wanting and what you mean by attitude. If it's a case of immensely talented creative player but doesn't work hard then I'd take him all day and set my team up to account for that
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So does that mean you would have kept Kaikai? Although not the most talented he on his day was a match winner, the problem is those days were as rare as hens teeth
 
'Some people achieve greatness with remarkably little effort.' I think that's a bit of a myth - name one person who has achieved greatness with very little effort. The Cheeky Girls don't count by the way.
 
Brett scores for fun said:
Amateur football leagues are full of very talented, skillful players and the main reason they never made it as a professional was down to attitude, commitment or application. I've played with some great footballers, who never made the grade and there was no other explanation I could think of.
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Natural ability yes , attitude and hard work no , both combined you have a good chance even if its semi pro

I spoke to a Halifax Town supporter some years ago and he told me about a young player called Jamie Vardy who needed too improve his attitude and he would be a good player.
 
Brett scores for fun said:
Maybe but how many professional players have we seen at Bloomfield Road who make us say "how the F.... did he become a footballer, I've played with far better on a Sunday?"
I played with one excellent old school, tough CF, who'd been a regular in Tranmere Reserves, scoring goals for fun, but Ron Yeates for some reason, just didn't like him, so wouldn't play him in the first team. He admits this caused him to develop a bad attitude, which affected his game and resulted in him joining the Police (where he played for their England & GB teams).
It's a funny old game 😖
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Yes we might say that, but stick that same player in your average Amateur League and even the shittest professional would stand out IMHO…

Seen it time and time again with young local lads who are seemingly outstandingly talented compared to peers, but are simply not good enough to make the grade.

Of course, if you’ve got limited ability, then putting in the extra effort can help you improve, but it’s only going to carry you so far…
 
Do we have an example where somebody with what appears natural talent has been at the very top and/or won something without putting effort in?

I'm struggling.
 
TSSeasider said:
Do we have an example where somebody with what appears natural talent has been at the very top and/or won something without putting effort in?

I'm struggling.
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They would have to put some effort in, simply to get out of bed in a morning and get to work….

There are plenty of examples people with poor attitude who have succeeded in sport.
 
I don't think one wins particularly over the other.Just judge each player on their own merit and what they bring to the table.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
They would have to put some effort in, simply to get out of bed in a morning and get to work….

There are plenty of examples people with poor attitude who have succeeded in sport.
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I know that; but a specific example of an exceptionally talented individual who did the absolute bare minimum for their sport and succeeded.
 
TSSeasider said:
Do we have an example where somebody with what appears natural talent has been at the very top and/or won something without putting effort in?

I'm struggling.
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John Daly at golf was extremely talented and won Majors but was not one to practice and certainly not go to the gym! He was once asked why he never got injured like other golfers, he responded you cant pull fat!!!!!
 
TSSeasider said:
I know that; but a specific example of an exceptionally talented individual who did the absolute bare minimum for their sport and succeeded.
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The thread is about attitude vs ability (not effort vs ability).

There are loads of top sportsmen who have failed to fully apply themselves, but who have still excelled.

George Best, Gaza, Maradonna, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Andrew Flintoff…
 
It's why you have cup upsets. The attitude and desire to win often prevails against a more skilful team that's lacking in determination
 
On The Rock said:
It's why you have cup upsets. The attitude and desire to win often prevails against a more skilful team that's lacking in determination
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Or because top sides tend to put out reserve team players and kids and lesser sides get lucky.

I think the cup games are mostly classic examples of the opposite to be honest… whereby better sides can paste a side 6-0 without ever getting out of first gear.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Or because top sides tend to put out reserve team players and kids and lesser sides get lucky.

I think the cup games are mostly classics example of a be opposite to be honest… whereby better sides can paste a side 6-0 without ever getting out of first gear.
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Ok, I take your point but look at our season in the prem as the example. Played over a full season and with technically less gifted players overall than many other teams boasting full internationals, we still won more than most expected which was down in no small part to attitude and determination. It's why they say that we're lucky the game's played on grass and not on paper.
 
On The Rock said:
Ok, I take your point but look at our season in the prem as the example. Played over a full season and with technically less gifted players overall than many other teams boasting full internationals, we still won more than most expected which was down in no small part to attitude and determination. It's why they say that we're lucky the game's played on grass and not on paper.
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But we went down and the teams with the most talented players still won the league.

So for all our effort and endeavour we failed and more talented teams succeeded.
 
you can go back way before the advent of the PL to when teams only had one sub and for cup games they used to still put out their strongest team. When the FA Cup was considered more important to teams than it is now. And there were plenty of shocks back then. Just because many teams now put out weakened teams doesn't get away from the point that shocks happen. And that can be because of attitude over talent.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
But we went down and the teams with the most talented players still won the league.

So for all our effort and endeavour we failed and more talented teams succeeded.
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My point is we didn't lose all our games which, if skill always beats attitude, it could be argued should have been the case. Of course a non-league team won't win the FA Cup but you often see them winning one off games against much higher competition. Better attitude on the day 🙂
 
On The Rock said:
My point is we didn't lose all our games which, if skill always beats attitude, it could be argued should have been the case. Of course a non-league team won't win the FA Cup but you often see them winning one off games against much higher competition. Better attitude on the day 🙂
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There’s far more at play though in a game of football, than a simple case of ‘talent vs effort’

For starters the simple law of averages / probability will mean that sometimes the worst side just wins the game… So luck

Then you have the tactical factor…. Certain sides might just struggle to cope with different tactics. One manager might be more astute that the other.

Availability of players, injuries, personal / off field issues.

How long a side has played together / how well they gel as a team etc..

In Blackpool’s case, we had some advantage (especially early on) that sides simply didn’t know what to make of us…

There’s a million and one stories of plucky underdogs…, but ultimately passion & attitude will only carry you so far.

On an individual player to player basis…. Talent will typically overcome, unless a player literally can’t be arsed.
 
Junior_BentsPlatformShoes said:
Agree to some point, and it's the difference between the Neil Bishop's and Ronaldo's of the world. I think 'raw talent' if very hard to define though. Physical and mental advantages due to genetics and then applied to a skill somebody has an interest in and willing to improve, along with support etc is a mix of things. Plus starting as young as possible.
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Even Neil Bishop has a lot more football talent than the rest of us, allied to a willingness to graft
 
tangysider said:
Possibly George Best?
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Maybe; so we're going back 50 years for a fella who played at the top of his game for 8 seasons.

I think it backs up the point, it's a pretty rare occurrence for natural talent in and of itself being enough to rise to the pinnacle of your chosen profession.
 
I spent 18 months at the Pool from 69 under Paddy Sowden, obviously did not progress mind you none of the lads who were there at the time
did either and some of them good players ? But 12 months later Walsh & Ainscow started to come through.
 
talent only improves with attitude, otherwise it gets wasted.

A good attitude will improve players basic talent and make them wanted. Maybe a 6 or 7/10 max.

A good talent given a good attitude improves the talent and make a rating of whatever it wants to be, but > 6/7.
 
The King was often accused of being lazy, but would any seriously not have wanted his skills in the team?

Talent and application stumps all, one or the other can always be argued.
 
TSSeasider said:
Maybe; so we're going back 50 years for a fella who played at the top of his game for 8 seasons.

I think it backs up the point, it's a pretty rare occurrence for natural talent in and of itself being enough to rise to the pinnacle of your chosen profession.
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It’s not rare at all….(not when you look at in the context of how many people actually reach true ‘genius level’)

It’s certainly rare to have the kind of outstanding talent that someone like Best had…. If you actually look at the tiny number of genuine genius types….probably more of them have some issues / flaws than don’t…

Whether it’s sport or any other area …. Extreme Genius is commonly accompanied by flawed character traits… it’s the norm if anything.
 
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