Newcastle United - free speech.

[spudgun]

Terms such as 'infecting areas of society' is paranoid hatred I'm afraid.

Yep, read this thread in full this morning and that phrase leapt off the page.

Whilst JJ makes the odd interesting observation, his perception of reality from a deep right wing rabbit hole - whereby he sees life only in a binary right/left perspective - is lurching towards paranoia.

Having a right wing or left wing view is fine, but seeing everyone "on the other side" as the enemy is ** nuts...

 

[Bisphamtang]

All this woke anti woke hogwash is a distraction - in the 80's it was the loony left then we had "the PC brigade"

However ,whilst risking a ban, I will say men who dress up as woman or identify as woman are actually men.

 

[JJpool]

A survey from a right wing lobby group published in the Telegraph isn't proof of anything, it's just an echo chamber pushing a certain ideology.

Terms such as 'infecting areas of society' is paranoid hatred I'm afraid.

If it suits you to believe that then fine.

Its pretty obvious universities are liberal and promote left wing values, you see many on the right get in hot water for their views all the time.

 

[JJpool]

So you can't actually tell me what on the right is being shut down, whilst I have told you what on the left is being shut down?

I've said already, are you completely unaware or something?

You're literally debating on the thread of someone's views being shut down by a shadowy group that is monitoring people's legally held speech and banning them from football.

There tons of examples that are mentioned and the dismissed all the time on here, as it doesn't sit with the left wing views of the posters on here. And it is largely LW, or those who get involved. Many on the right have already left here.

 

[JJpool]

Yep, read this thread in full this morning and that phrase leapt off the page.

Whilst JJ makes the odd interesting observation, his perception of reality from a deep right wing rabbit hole - whereby he sees life only in a binary right/left perspective - is lurching towards paranoia.

Having a right wing or left wing view is fine, but seeing everyone "on the other side" as the enemy is ** nuts...

Nope, as usual the usual suspects turned up to the thread and didn't seem interested in the topic but going off on their usual tangents and you then get trapped in endless debates about different things. You get then get into entrenched arguments and it seems you care more about something than you actually do.

It's when people deny reality that it needs calling out, like that universities aren't more left wing. I though people on the left wouldn't debate that. What next, Millwall fans are LW...

Happy to stay on topic, but not many are interested it seems.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

I've said already, are you completely unaware or something?

You're literally debating on the thread of someone's views being shut down by a shadowy group that is monitoring people's legally held speech and banning them from football.

There tons of examples that are mentioned and the dismissed all the time on here, as it doesn't sit with the left wing views of the posters on here. And it is largely LW, or those who get involved. Many on the right have already left here.

Why get abusive? I gave you a whole list and you claim one on a very complex issue and I'm unaware? You are making my point for me, it is the right and always has been who cannot stand different views. Fill the Independent broadcaster with political appointees, choose the right wing presenters, take away our rights willy nilly, and moan if anyone protests.

Thank goodness the Courts are starting to stand up to an out of control executive and Police Service.

 

[JJpool]

Why get abusive? I gave you a whole list and you claim one on a very complex issue and I'm unaware? You are making my point for me, it is the right and always has been who cannot stand different views. Fill the Independent broadcaster with political appointees, choose the right wing presenters, take away our rights willy nilly, and moan if anyone protests.

Thank goodness the Courts are starting to stand up to an out of control executive and Police Service.

How's that abusive? Weird word to use based on what I put. We're debating on a thread where there is an example you asked for, surely you were aware of that. I have given you the point of not being able to call out biological reality. Many have been snared by that in many different areas, it's nonesense.

I get tired of repeating the same points on here to the same people, who rather than engage the thread topic, are happy to go off on tangents based on their own bias. Yes we all have them.

You've come out with a complete load of rubbish there. The radical left is completely intolerant to any views against and will seek to shut people down.

You and everyone know this, even if you don't want to admit it.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I seem to remember in the 1980s “the loony left” were trying to ban black bin bags.

It would seem the loony left are not that good at cancelling. As I’m still using black bin bags.

Or the story might’ve been made up. A bit like “school girls identify as cats” from last year. To whip up a certain demographic.

I wonder what Toby’s next wheeze might be?

 

[Tangerinemoss]

How's that abusive? Weird word to use based on what I put. We're debating on a thread where there is an example you asked for, surely you were aware of that. I have given you the point of not being able to call out biological reality. Many have been snared by that in many different areas, it's nonesense.

I get tired of repeating the same points on here to the same people, who rather than engage the thread topic, are happy to go off on tangents based on their own bias. Yes we all have them.

You've come out with a complete load of rubbish there. The radical left is completely intolerant to any views against and will seek to shut people down.

You and everyone know this, even if you don't want to admit it.

My load of rubbish is factual backed up by the new legislation that has gone through / is going through Parliament. Yours is based on an antique version of what you allege is science, that would be disputed by many in the Medical and Mental Health Professions.

Nowhere I have I attempted to shut you down, whilst all you can do is make statements like"you and everyone knows it", which to a great many people, probably now the majority in the UK, is total tosh. We disagree with you, and are quite happy to debate, hardly the act of someone shutting you down.

Oh, and if you think threads on AVFTT always stay on topic, you haven't been here very long. They develop, new issues get discussed based on what others have said, and long may it remain that way.

Edited to add, if you think I am radical left, you really are out of touch with general opinion.

 

[JJpool]

My load of rubbish is factual backed up by the new legislation that has gone through / is going through Parliament. Yours is based on an antique version of what you allege is science, that would be disputed by many in the Medical and Mental Health Professions.

Nowhere I have I attempted to shut you down, whilst all you can do is make statements like"you and everyone knows it", which to a great many people, probably now the majority in the UK, is total tosh. We disagree with you, and are quite happy to debate, hardly the act of someone shutting you down.

Oh, and if you think threads on AVFTT always stay on topic, you haven't been here very long. They develop, new issues get discussed based on what others have said, and long may it remain that way.

Edited to add, if you think I am radical left, you really are out of touch with general opinion.

So you're saying science would go against basic biology?

I didn't say you were the radical left did I? I referred to the radical left as the ones who are completely intolerant to opposing views.

The right aren't, they might not agree with some things but don't seek to shut down to anywhere near the same level.

Again you keep misunderstanding, (purposefully I can only assume) I haven't said you tried to shut me down.

There are tons of examples and I CBA going off digging for them all. But here's a relevant piece to the discussion

How universities shut out conservative academics

A new report shows the extent of intolerance towards unorthodox thinkers in British academia

unherd.com

"In recent years British universities have drifted way to the Left. Three-quarters of academics who were surveyed support Left-wing parties; fewer than one in five support parties of the Right. Just 9% of academics in the social sciences and humanities voted to Leave the European Union and just 7% identify as “right of centre”. It also points to how those who do deviate from the orthodoxy experience a tough time. Only 54%of academics would feel comfortable sitting next to a Leave supporter over lunch, and just 37% would feel comfortable sitting next to somebody who holds gender-critical views."

From a bit further in...

"Many of these things would simply never have occurred had I woken up on 24 June, 2016, and announced, as many of my colleagues did, that I was going to oppose Brexit with every fibre of my being. It is a form of harassment that would simply never be tolerated were it directed at, say, a religious minority on account of their beliefs. One irony is that some people who claim to be the guardians of tolerance and liberalism are, in reality, not that tolerant or liberal at all."

Read the full piece and listen to his experiences and what he faced for going against the accepted narrative.

People on this thread have hardly discussed the op. I've been on avftt, old and new, for nearly 20 years I think. I know how it works, just made an observation.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Unherd, founded by Tory Tim Montgomerie.

The author is a Czar for the Tories, and is connected to the Legatum Institute, funded by Dubai(?), which seems to have a revolving door with Tufton Street

Of course it's an unbiased piece .......

It is all part of the Trumpesque playbook of continuing to repeat falsehoods ad nauseam and hope eventually people will believe them

And as someoone who actually has a Biology degree, I can assure you there is nothing simple about biological sex determination and never has been. If you think there are only two sexes and they are immutable, may I suggest you do a little research? I actuaaly knew someone when I was growing up who was identified as male at birth, and female sometime later. There are several combinations of X and Y chromosomes, this stuff is all well documented, never mind all the research on gender identity relating to function of the brain.

Now, if you want a discussion about whether there are medical facilites pushing gender re assignment at a ludicrously early age without sufficient analysis of the individual, I'm with you, or how it impacts on women only safe places, grand.

 

[JJpool]

Unherd, founded by Tory Tim Montgomerie.

The author is a Czar for the Tories, and is connected to the Legatum Institute, funded by Dubai(?), which seems to have a revolving door with Tufton Street

Of course it's an unbiased piece .......

It is all part of the Trumpesque playbook of continuing to repeat falsehoods ad nauseam and hope eventually people will believe them

And as someoone who actually has a Biology degree, I can assure you there is nothing simple about biological sex determination and never has been. If you think there are only two sexes and they are immutable, may I suggest you do a little research? I actuaaly knew someone when I was growing up who was identified as male at birth, and female sometime later. There are several combinations of X and Y chromosomes, this stuff is all well documented, never mind all the research on gender identity relating to function of the brain.

Now, if you want a discussion about whether there are medical facilites pushing gender re assignment at a ludicrously early age without sufficient analysis of the individual, I'm with you, or how it impacts on women only safe places, grand.

Here we go.

You had a chance there to show some understanding and what you've come back with shows you up. It's all a big lie a big conspiracy. Wow.

You could have accepted that if there was some bias being shown against those on the right, who knew that it would be those on the right that are experiencing it and are the ones who report it.

Instead you've gone the typical lefty route of trying to completely disregard what you've been told because of the source.

It's easier for you to completely disregard anything I find rather than question your world view. So do your own research, I'm not wasting any time finding stuff for you to dismiss, which I knew would happen.

As for biology of course there are rare cases, but we're talking generally and people waking up one day and saying I'm a man or a women when they aren't and the implications it has on safe female spaces etc. Don't you care about them? The implications on young children. You look like another with no skin in the game, but I do, so it concerns me.

Why aren't I 70? Or a black lesbian? Can someone identify as another race, if not why not, if someone feels like they're black then what's the difference? Maybe they haven't actually lived it.

People aren't calling for disregarding these people exist or treating them well, but instead of saying trans women are women, why can't they say they are trans women? No issue with that. But there are potential safeguarding issues in some areas. Actually there's trans people who agree it's all gone a bit to far.

As for surgery etc, it’s ludicrous and the pushing genders should be kept away from young impressionable minds, as they try and make it appear cool. It's not good to fill kids minds with that when they haven't a clue who they are yet. If adults feel they aren't in the right body after careful consideration then so be it, but we shouldn’t be encouraging it in schools.

"Controversial" results here... Biological sex is real and we are not 'assigned' a sex at birth.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Confused by your train of thought as I was the one raising concerns about safe places and early gender re assignment, maybe you just want an argument.

Look, we will never agree on this. I see the world through the eyes of someone who is having my rights removed willy nilly by the most extreme Governmnet since the 19th Century. You think your views are being suppressed.

There is a wealth of research around the issues of gender and identity, and for those involved, it is a massive mental health issue, not something to be treated dismissively as a tiny number of people involved. And as for your comment about no skin in the game, disgusting. Does it never occur to you that peole are bullied, and killed because they are different?

 

[Wizaard]

So you're saying science would go against basic biology?

I didn't say you were the radical left did I? I referred to the radical left as the ones who are completely intolerant to opposing views.

The right aren't, they might not agree with some things but don't seek to shut down to anywhere near the same level.

Again you keep misunderstanding, (purposefully I can only assume) I haven't said you tried to shut me down.

There are tons of examples and I CBA going off digging for them all. But here's a relevant piece to the discussion

How universities shut out conservative academics

A new report shows the extent of intolerance towards unorthodox thinkers in British academia

unherd.com

"In recent years British universities have drifted way to the Left. Three-quarters of academics who were surveyed support Left-wing parties; fewer than one in five support parties of the Right. Just 9% of academics in the social sciences and humanities voted to Leave the European Union and just 7% identify as “right of centre”. It also points to how those who do deviate from the orthodoxy experience a tough time. Only 54%of academics would feel comfortable sitting next to a Leave supporter over lunch, and just 37% would feel comfortable sitting next to somebody who holds gender-critical views."

From a bit further in...

"Many of these things would simply never have occurred had I woken up on 24 June, 2016, and announced, as many of my colleagues did, that I was going to oppose Brexit with every fibre of my being. It is a form of harassment that would simply never be tolerated were it directed at, say, a religious minority on account of their beliefs. One irony is that some people who claim to be the guardians of tolerance and liberalism are, in reality, not that tolerant or liberal at all."

Read the full piece and listen to his experiences and what he faced for going against the accepted narrative.

People on this thread have hardly discussed the op. I've been on avftt, old and new, for nearly 20 years I think. I know how it works, just made an observation.

The right don't shut things and opposition down?

Have you heard of Hitler?

 

[JJpool]

Confused by your train of thought as I was the one raising concerns about safe places and early gender re assignment, maybe you just want an argument.

Look, we will never agree on this. I see the world through the eyes of someone who is having my rights removed willy nilly by the most extreme Governmnet since the 19th Century. You think your views are being suppressed.

There is a wealth of research around the issues of gender and identity, and for those involved, it is a massive mental health issue, not something to be treated dismissively as a tiny number of people involved. And as for your comment about no skin in the game, disgusting. Does it never occur to you that peole are bullied, and killed because they are different?

That's one of the main issues, safe spaces, also safeguarding, surgery, young minds etc.

It is a big issue for them and they can do what they want, but don't expect people to go along with everything when it infringes things like womes rights etc and biological sex. Most would have no problem saying a trans woman but not calling a man a woman, meaning they can enter women's toilets etc.

I meant no skin in the game as in young kids about to go through school. It was an assumption of course based off the pic and an age guesstimate.

Happy to agree to disagree, but tbf were not really disagreeing on everything but you keep misunderstanding points.

 

[JJpool]

The right don't shut things and opposition down?

Have you heard of Hitler?

And you've just lost the argument by mentioning him.

As extreme an example as you can get.

I'm well aware the right can do this however it's the left doing it a lot in different ways today.

Funnily enough one of the quotes from the person banned in the op topic compared something to them and the prem spy team banned her.

 

[Wizaard]

And you've just lost the argument by mentioning him.

As extreme an example as you can get.

I'm well aware the right can do this however it's the left doing it a lot in different ways today.

Funnily enough one of the quotes from the person banned in the op topic compared something to them and the prem spy team banned her.

OK, lost the argument. You win, the right are all lovely people who want nothing for themselves but to share the love.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

That's one of the main issues, safe spaces, also safeguarding, surgery, young minds etc.

It is a big issue for them and they can do what they want, but don't expect people to go along with everything when it infringes things like womes rights etc and biological sex. Most would have no problem saying a trans woman but not calling a man a woman, meaning they can enter women's toilets etc.

I meant no skin in the game as in young kids about to go through school. It was an assumption of course based off the pic and an age guesstimate.

Happy to agree to disagree, but tbf were not really disagreeing on everything but you keep misunderstanding points.

Like I said, disgusting. Three grandkids, a son who is a Primary School teacher. I know several Transgender folk, I have read around this issue very widely, having become interested in why JK Rowling was suddenly made a pariah, yet was supported by the most radical feminist groups.

I don't misunderstanding your points, I disagree with them. It is a very difficult area, and pretending it is simple issue, right and wrong, is blinkered and a denial of current scientific thinking./

 

[JJpool]

OK, lost the argument. You win, the right are all lovely people who want nothing for themselves but to share the love.

Well that's what they say...

Godwins law...

Any extreme side can be bad.

 

[JJpool]

Like I said, disgusting. Three grandkids, a son who is a Primary School teacher. I know several Transgender folk, I have read around this issue very widely, having become interested in why JK Rowling was suddenly made a pariah, yet was supported by the most radical feminist groups.

I don't misunderstanding your points, I disagree with them. It is a very difficult area, and pretending it is simple issue, right and wrong, is blinkered and a denial of current scientific thinking./

Weird wording again. Is it really disgusting to have made an assumption? No it isn't. Stop being dramatic.

That's good then, you should have some real concerns about what young minds are being filled with these days. Let kids be kids for me.

Jk Rowling did nothing but state facts and was set upon by the extreme element.

To say my position is a denial of scientific thinking is laughable when people are magically anything they want to be these days because they feel it.

 

[JJpool]

You're in luck on that front: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/03/whitehall-mandarin-premier-league-newscastle-fan-banned/

The Premier League “Stasi” unit that carried out an investigation that led to a gender-critical Newcastle United fan being banned was presided over by a former Whitehall mandarin fined for partygate.

The Telegraph has learnt Helen MacNamara, who was fined by the police in the partygate scandal, was until recently the Premier League executive responsible for the policies now at the centre of Ms Smith’s legal battle.

Any idea why the articles about her have been taken down?