Northern Ireland sell out

Cuthbert

Cuthbert

Well-known member
The Conservatives used to be the Unionist Party both in title and philosophy. In reality as part of the Brexit agreement they have massively sold out Northern Ireland to the Republican forces. They are destroying the UK bit by bit.
 
Cuthbert said:
The Conservatives used to be the Unionist Party both in title and philosophy. In reality as part of the Brexit agreement they have massively sold out Northern Ireland to the Republican forces. They are destroying the UK bit by bit.
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And still the ministers haven't read either the agreement or even the Good Friday Agreement.

They don't give a shit. No votes for them over there.
 
Cuthbert said:
The Conservatives used to be the Unionist Party both in title and philosophy. In reality as part of the Brexit agreement they have massively sold out Northern Ireland to the Republican forces. They are destroying the UK bit by bit.
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Their front bench are all English nationalists - except Sunak, whose loyalty is to money.
 
Brexit is for keeps
No united Ireland ever
Tories to win next General Election
Enjoy your Friday the 13th😜🇬🇧
 
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This is yet another great result from Brexit.

This is a long term Tory plan for English independence - and let's be honest, despite the crap they talk about levelling up, they really only care about their supporters in the Home Counties
 
You'd think with war on the Eastern Front, significantly funded by member states of the EU, they would be sufficiently able and willing to compromise on a few bureaucratic rules, to keep the peace on the far western front.

Are rules about the movement of food and carpets and door handles and toys amongst two islands (because there is no desire to move from NI, to RoI to rEU) so important as to risk bringing civil war back to the streets of NI.

Perhaps the EU believes it's a price worth paying for the "integrity of the market."
 
Since the geographical and political EU border is between Ireland and the six counties that's where the customs border should be, if anywhere. Applying barriers between Great Britain and NI is, and always was, a ridiculous notion. In reality, there doesn't need to be a hard border in future just as there is no hard border now.

Those like myself who travel regularly between England and the Republic know full well that no physical border controls exist other than for trade and these can be streamlined using ‘facilitations’ such as allowing traders to use simplified declaration procedures, under which they can avoid making full customs declarations when the goods are moved and instead record movements in their commercial records. Simplifications, such as Authorised Economic Operator/Trusted Trader Scheme status, can demonstrate a business’s satisfactory customs control processes and avoid the need for border controls. The EU can deliver a solution without offending the Trade and Cooperation Agreement but it chooses not to do so.
The problems are not insurmountable, they just need a little more flexibility from both sides.
 
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Suddickbender said:
Is the answer straight forward …….. if the EU require border checks between NI and Eire (EU), then let the EU set up border checks ????
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My understanding is that would breach the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. As EIRE honours its treaty obligations that was never really an option.

There were two choices open to the U.K. and the EU during the withdrawal negotiations. The U.K. as a whole could stay within the Customs Union until a way to resolve the problem was found OR we could put the trade border down the Irish Sea. May said no British PM could accept an internal trade barrier within the U.K. and so wanted the first option. She then went to great lengths to negotiate the fall back so that the U.K. didn’t find itself trapped in the customs union forever. Johnson, the current members of the government and the DUP objected to that and Johnson’s “oven ready” deal was basically the imposition of an internal barrier within the U.K.. That’s what we signed up to, what the DUP object to and what we now want to change.

Why did the U.K. sign up to it given the problems the protocol would cause with the Unionists? There only seem to be two explanations.

1. Johnson and his advisers didn’t understand the implications of what they were agreeing to. I don’t really find that credible.

2. They knew full well the problems the protocol would cause but signed up anyway so they could claim they’d “got Brexit done” and campaign on that platform in the general election. They thought they’d then be able to renegotiate the terms of the protocol at their leisure. Which is where we are now.

Whether the British threat to breach the treaty is real or just a negotiating ploy awaits to be seen. The US has made it clear if we breach the treaty then the chances of a U.K./US trade deal are zero. IMO arguments that the circumstances have changed which allow us to suspend the protocol are unlikely to convince either the EU or the US. The circumstances are the same as they ever were. It’s just that now the problems inherent in the protocol are much clearer for everyone to see and undeniable.
 
TSSeasider said:
You'd think with war on the Eastern Front, significantly funded by member states of the EU, they would be sufficiently able and willing to compromise on a few bureaucratic rules, to keep the peace on the far western front.

Are rules about the movement of food and carpets and door handles and toys amongst two islands (because there is no desire to move from NI, to RoI to rEU) so important as to risk bringing civil war back to the streets of NI.

Perhaps the EU believes it's a price worth paying for the "integrity of the market."
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The EU’s big concern is obviously about food production standards and this route opening up the door to chlorinated chicken, hormone fed beef, GM crops etc when we get our trade deals with the US and others. No doubt that is a big ‘concern’ for the US as well and probably part of the reason a delegation is on the way over. Let’s hope they can reach a decent compromise.
 
glasshalffull said:
The EU’s big concern is obviously about food production standards and this route opening up the door to chlorinated chicken, hormone fed beef, GM crops etc when we get our trade deals with the US and others. No doubt that is a big ‘concern’ for the US as well and probably part of the reason a delegation is on the way over. Let’s hope they can reach a decent compromise.
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I might be wrong; there's may be dozens of companies out there waiting to exploit a borderless zone between GB+NI and RoI as a mechanism for swamping the EU with products which breach their standards - but I honestly can't see it.

In order to keep the peace and so there isn't another civil war in NI; two distinct trade zones should be established.

One in which the UK and RoI operate for goods and services only between those two countries and one in which UK and EU operates for everything else including anything which uses RoI as a transit point.

I honestly don't think it's that hard; the trouble is we get into the childish "you knew what you signed and why should we?"

The EC was formed as a mechanism for keeping the peace throughout Europe; let's not sacrifice that idealism on the alter of one-upmanship.

Just a bit of flex and all will be right.
 
To suggest that NI is on the brink of civil war is more than a slight exaggeration.

There are certainly dissident Republican groups but they’ve been there since the GFA was signed. They are on the fringe and marginal. What we have at the moment is the DUP having a paddy (no pun intended) and grandstanding because they are now in a minority. Bearing in mind the calls to “respect the democratic outcome” we heard so often after the referendum I’m surprised not to hear the same calls being made by Johnson and the government of the DUP.

Grow up. Take your seats in Stormont and get on with the job of governing that you were elected to do.
 
Cuthbert said:
The Conservatives used to be the Unionist Party both in title and philosophy. In reality as part of the Brexit agreement they have massively sold out Northern Ireland to the Republican forces. They are destroying the UK bit by bit.
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Hang on a minute here. How is something democratic when the Party who finished second dictates whether a country can be governed or not???!!! 🤔😏. Can you imagine if Labour here were allowed to do the same, and this country couldn't be governed!!! As much as I have misgivings about Sinn Fein and hated the IRA when they were in full swing, it was a DEMOCRATIC Vote and should be accepted! I'm sick to death of the DUP and them 'Loyalist' fookers acting like classroom bullies and babies that throw their toys out of the pram at everything that doesn't suit their narrative! 🙄. The British government should pull the rug from under them, not keep pandering to their childish behaviour and threats...imo. Offer the Deputy position to Naomi Long of the Alliance Party, if there's a continual refusal...and even send the army in to rattle a few heads amongst their neanderthal support, if it comes to that...
 
Satsuma said:
Hang on a minute here. How is something democratic when the Party who finished second dictates whether a country can be governed or not???!!! 🤔😏. Can you imagine if Labour here were allowed to do the same, and this country couldn't be governed!!! As much as I have misgivings about Sinn Fein and hated the IRA when they were in full swing, it was a DEMOCRATIC Vote and should be accepted! I'm sick to death of the DUP and them 'Loyalist' fookers acting like classroom bullies and babies that throw their toys out of the pram at everything that doesn't suit their narrative! 🙄. The British government should pull the rug from under them, not keep pandering to their childish behaviour and threats...imo. Offer the Deputy position to Naomi Long of the Alliance Party, if there's a continual refusal...and even send the army in to rattle a few heads amongst their neanderthal support, if it comes to that...
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Are you sure about that 🙄? While I agree with your general sentiment caution is still required, and the terms of the GFA need to be respected still?
 
glasshalffull said:
Are you sure about that 🙄? While I agree with your general sentiment caution is still required, and the terms of the GFA need to be respected still?
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I agree the GFA should be respected but I can understand the poster’s frustration with the DUP. Given there were only two choices what did they expect to happen when they rejected May’s deal? A trade border in the Irish Sea was the only other feasible option and that’s exactly what Johnson gave them.

There are reports out today that actually NI is reaping very tangible benefits from being inside the EU single market so actually the protocol seems to be working and is pretty beneficial to their economy. No doubt there’s room for streamlining any procedures that are overburdensome but that’s very different to saying “scrap the protocol”.

And as a matter of interest - who is it who is supposedly threatening a civil war in NI if the protocol isn’t scrapped? The nationalists seem pretty happy with it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
My understanding is that would breach the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. As EIRE honours its treaty obligations that was never really an option.

There were two choices open to the U.K. and the EU during the withdrawal negotiations. The U.K. as a whole could stay within the Customs Union until a way to resolve the problem was found OR we could put the trade border down the Irish Sea. May said no British PM could accept an internal trade barrier within the U.K. and so wanted the first option. She then went to great lengths to negotiate the fall back so that the U.K. didn’t find itself trapped in the customs union forever. Johnson, the current members of the government and the DUP objected to that and Johnson’s “oven ready” deal was basically the imposition of an internal barrier within the U.K.. That’s what we signed up to, what the DUP object to and what we now want to change.

Why did the U.K. sign up to it given the problems the protocol would cause with the Unionists? There only seem to be two explanations.

1. Johnson and his advisers didn’t understand the implications of what they were agreeing to. I don’t really find that credible.

2. They knew full well the problems the protocol would cause but signed up anyway so they could claim they’d “got Brexit done” and campaign on that platform in the general election. They thought they’d then be able to renegotiate the terms of the protocol at their leisure. Which is where we are now.

Whether the British threat to breach the treaty is real or just a negotiating ploy awaits to be seen. The US has made it clear if we breach the treaty then the chances of a U.K./US trade deal are zero. IMO arguments that the circumstances have changed which allow us to suspend the protocol are unlikely to convince either the EU or the US. The circumstances are the same as they ever were. It’s just that now the problems inherent in the protocol are much clearer for everyone to see and undeniable.
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Nailed it in one 👍 The only people complaining about Johnson’s ‘ready made’ deal are the ones who voted for it!! Us Remainers have accepted what’s happened and moved on. I think the DUP share of the vote will shrink further in years to come as the economic benefits in NI increase.
 
glasshalffull said:
Are you sure about that 🙄? While I agree with your general sentiment caution is still required, and the terms of the GFA need to be respected still?
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They were quick to jump into bed with the Tories, to prop up Theresa May's government a few years ago! 😏. Now it's come back to bite them on the arse...and they don't like it! 🙄. As I understand it, under the current terms of the GFA ONLY people who live in N. Ireland can vote on a united Ireland anyway...and in the latest opinion polls there only 30% said they would want that...so there's no chance of it happening, certainly no time soon! 🤷‍♂️
Of course if the vote was extended to Ireland as a whole though, that would be reversed! The DUP are just ultra conservative extreme Right Wing dick heads... I despise them, despite coming from a 200 year old Protestant non-conformist background myself..
 
"over my dead body" said you know who about a border in the Irish Sea.
"It's an oven ready deal" said the same person.
The conclusion is that either he didn't understand the deal he negotiated ( unthinkable) or he knew exactly what would happen but had to have his "we got Brexit done" tagline in time for the election and thought 'fuck it, we'll deal with it later'.
And that's who runs the country.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree the GFA should be respected but I can understand the poster’s frustration with the DUP. Given there were only two choices what did they expect to happen when they rejected May’s deal? A trade border in the Irish Sea was the only other feasible option and that’s exactly what Johnson gave them.

There are reports out today that actually NI is reaping very tangible benefits from being inside the EU single market so actually the protocol seems to be working and is pretty beneficial to their economy. No doubt there’s room for streamlining any procedures that are overburdensome but that’s very different to saying “scrap the protocol”.

And as a matter of interest - who is it who is supposedly threatening a civil war in NI if the protocol isn’t scrapped? The nationalists seem pretty happy with it.
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Yeah I was more concerned about the Army being sent in TBH.
It occurs to me that Boris and co may be so keen to get NI away from the effects of the single market because any sign of success there will draw attention to the hole he might have left the rest of the UK in?
 
Satsuma said:
They were quick to jump into bed with the Tories, to prop up Theresa May's government a few years ago! 😏. Now it's come back to bite them on the arse...and they don't like it! 🙄. As I understand it, under the current terms of the GFA ONLY people who live in N. Ireland can vote on a united Ireland anyway...and in the latest opinion polls there only 30% said they would want that...so there's no chance of it happening, certainly no time soon! 🤷‍♂️
Of course if the vote was extended to Ireland as a whole though, that would be reversed! The DUP are just ultra conservative extreme Right Wing dick heads... I despise them, despite coming from a 200 year old Protestant non-conformist background myself..
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Not too sure on the 30%
 
Cuthbert said:
Not too sure on the 30%
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It might be slightly higher it might be slightly lower, but it was definitely under a third of people, in polls conducted by The Belfast Telegraph.... I'm presuming throughout the Province, to get a more accurate overall view?! 🤔 🤷‍♂️. However, the way it stands Sinn Fein heading the government would have very little effect on people's lives there at the moment, so fears are unfounded...and Sinn Fein aren't exactly the feckin Taliban are they?! I suspect it'd be something like having the SNP in Scotland 🤷‍♂️. Of course if the vote was opened up to include the WHOLE of the island of Ireland that picture would radically change, as in the Republic there is a HUGE majority in favour of a united Ireland...and the population is much bigger! Under the current terms of the GFA though, only people in N. Ireland would get to vote on a united Ireland....which to me shows us just what uncompromising, bigoted tossers the DUP really are😏
 
Satsuma said:
It might be slightly higher it might be slightly lower, but it was definitely under a third of people, in polls conducted by The Belfast Telegraph.... I'm presuming throughout the Province, to get a more accurate overall view?! 🤔 🤷‍♂️. However, the way it stands Sinn Fein heading the government would have very little effect on people's lives there at the moment, so fears are unfounded...and Sinn Fein aren't exactly the feckin Taliban are they?! I suspect it'd be something like having the SNP in Scotland 🤷‍♂️. Of course if the vote was opened up to include the WHOLE of the island of Ireland that picture would radically change, as in the Republic there is a HUGE majority in favour of a united Ireland...and the population is much bigger! Under the current terms of the GFA though, only people in N. Ireland would get to vote on a united Ireland....which to me shows us just what uncompromising, bigoted tossers the DUP really are😏
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Interesting take... should the whole of the UK vote on Scotland independence...
 
Newholland said:
Interesting take... should the whole of the UK vote on Scotland independence...
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yep. And of course it's nothing like having the SNP in Scotland. The SNP is just one organisation which really has no links to religion whereas Sinn Fein and the DUP are two organistions both founded upon religion. So yep a totally blinkered and biased post from Satsuma.
 
20togo said:
I think you should read this board a bit more often. You remainers are on here on a daily basis forever moaning about Brexit. You've done anything but move on.
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Because what we have is not what we were promised in either 2016 or 2019.

Being held to account isn't in the Tories' playbook, as we've seen countless times recently.
 
Wizaard said:
Because what we have is not what we were promised in either 2016 or 2019.

Being held to account isn't in the Tories' playbook, as we've seen countless times recently.
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you prove my point. I replied to a poster who was claiming that we have moved on. Your reply clearly proves what I said. We haven't moved on.
 
20togo said:
you prove my point. I replied to a poster who was claiming that we have moved on. Your reply clearly proves what I said. We haven't moved on.
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Interesting comment “WE haven’t moved on”.

WE!!

Given that you obviously thinks remainers haven’t moved on, that reads as an acknowledgment that Brexiters also haven’t moved on.

Which of course is why they keep coming back to it. Trying to renegotiate their own deal. Implies they made a bit of a dog’s breakfast the first time around.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Interesting comment “WE haven’t moved on”.

WE!!

Given that you obviously thinks remainers haven’t moved on, that reads as an acknowledgment that Brexiters also haven’t moved on.

Which of course is why they keep coming back to it. Trying to renegotiate their own deal. Implies they made a bit of a dog’s breakfast the first time around.
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As I said to Wiz, I was simply replying to a post which claimed we have moved on. From reading AVFTT I would suggest it is the remainers who more often than not start threads on the topic. And the fact you talk about a bit of dogs dinner once again suggests that people haven't moved on. I've not made any other point bar that.
 
20togo said:
As I said to Wiz, I was simply replying to a post which claimed we have moved on. From reading AVFTT I would suggest it is the remainers who more often than not start threads on the topic. And the fact you talk about a bit of dogs dinner once again suggests that people haven't moved on. I've not made any other point bar that.
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Well I suppose it depends on how you define what qualifies as a Brexit thread. I haven’t undertaken a detailed audit, but a quick scan of the front page would suggest it’s more likely to be Brexiters who start the threads with a Brexit/let’s put the boot into the EU slant.

It’s also perfectly possible to “move on” whilst at the same time pointing out that politicians words don’t always tally with their actions. Democracy doesn’t end with a vote. It also includes things like transparency, accountability and highlighting that things don’t seem to be quite as promised.

“We got Brexit done…..err apart from the protocol which we must now revisit”.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well I suppose it depends on how you define what qualifies as a Brexit thread. I haven’t undertaken a detailed audit, but a quick scan of the front page would suggest it’s more likely to be Brexiters who start the threads with a Brexit/let’s put the boot into the EU slant.

It’s also perfectly possible to “move on” whilst at the same time pointing out that politicians words don’t always tally with their actions. Democracy doesn’t end with a vote. It also includes things like transparency, accountability and highlighting that things don’t seem to be quite as promised.

“We got Brexit done…..err apart from the protocol which we must now revisit”.
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I wouldn't waste your time Mex. Really. You'd be better off trying to plait fog.
 
Newholland said:
Interesting take... should the whole of the UK vote on Scotland independence...
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No probably not, and N. Ireland will probably be the same. However, it doesn't change the fact that Donaldson and his Party of dinosaurs are allowed to call the shots regarding governing N. Ireland when they finished SECOND in a Democratic vote there! 🤦‍♂️. N. Ireland desperately needs government, but not at the price of democracy. Johnson should tell Donaldson and the DUP to stfu...swallow their pride and get on with the job of forming a government...but won't do of course! 🙄
 
basilrobbie3 said:
I wouldn't waste your time Mex. Really. You'd be better off trying to plait fog.
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I haven't discussed or debated anything to do with Brexit on this thread. I've simply made a comment about "moving on". What's so difficult to grasp about that? If I cared a damn about mex's points I'd have replied to him.
 
The reason why people are talking about Brexit on this thread is because the thing that the thread is about (the non functioning NI assembly) has been caused directly by Johnson's Brexit deal. Many people, including some on here, pointed out at the time of the referendum, and later, that Brexit was incompatible with the GFA. Theresa May, in her efforts to get a Brexit deal through, actually solved the problem but it would have involved the UK remaining in the customs union. With the benefit of hindsight this would have been a far better path as trade between the UK and EU could have carried on as before. Many economists estimate that Johnson's Brexit has cost us 4% of GDP because of shrinking trade volumes - that is in effect a 4% cut in government spending power at a time when we need it more than ever.
The other thing that is also to do with Brexit is that the government is debating in parliament (as I type this message) a bill that will allow them to ignore the NI protocol - a treaty with the EU that they themselves negotiated and agreed little more than 18 months ago. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the specific situation, this is a very bad development for our country and our reputation.
 
There are relatively simple solutions to the NI problems which are eminently workable, which avoid a hard border in Ireland and which have no detriment to the EU. Apart from the Trusted Trader/Authorised Economic Operator schemes, there is Liz Truss's 'Green Lane' proposal for goods moving from GB to NI and remaining there. This removes the need for paperwork on goods not entering the EU and allows Customs to concentrate solely on goods destined for the EU, thereby streamlining that service and strengthening UK/EU border controls.

The problem is not the UK or Northern Ireland. It's the EU's refusal to agree a solution.
 
tommytwojags said:
There are relatively simple solutions to the NI problems which are eminently workable, which avoid a hard border in Ireland and which have no detriment to the EU. Apart from the Trusted Trader/Authorised Economic Operator schemes, there is Liz Truss's 'Green Lane' proposal for goods moving from GB to NI and remaining there. This removes the need for paperwork on goods not entering the EU and allows Customs to concentrate solely on goods destined for the EU, thereby streamlining that service and strengthening UK/EU border controls.

The problem is not the UK or Northern Ireland. It's the EU's refusal to agree a solution.
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OvEN rEaDy DeAl......
All the EU's fault Jesus Wept! All hail Liz "pork market" Truss and Boris "honest" Johnson.
 
tommytwojags said:
There are relatively simple solutions to the NI problems which are eminently workable, which avoid a hard border in Ireland and which have no detriment to the EU. Apart from the Trusted Trader/Authorised Economic Operator schemes, there is Liz Truss's 'Green Lane' proposal for goods moving from GB to NI and remaining there. This removes the need for paperwork on goods not entering the EU and allows Customs to concentrate solely on goods destined for the EU, thereby streamlining that service and strengthening UK/EU border controls.

The problem is not the UK or Northern Ireland. It's the EU's refusal to agree a solution.
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They did agree a solution, the NI protocol. The same protocol that we are now legislating to ignore
 
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