Pandemic and illegal immigrants

TheSpiritOf53 said:
As I understand the point you're trying to make is that there is,

1) A significant enough number of people entering the country illegally (Britain is an attractive place to come if you have some English and currently live in poverty).

2) Their mode of entry doesn't allow for social distancing so therefore they are at greater risk of contracting the virus. Although you don't mention it their living and working conditions are likely to increase the spread of the virus too.

3) Their illegal status means they will undermine the efforts of track and trace.

Why then do you need to pad out the argument with a load of dubious statistics and make claims that aren't supported by your so-called facts? You've looked for the highest estimate of illegal immigration you can find rather than the soundest estimate then unsurprisingly people challenge those figures and they begin to look dubious. Then there is Malta. The Maltese have never claimed that 76% of illegal immigrants have Covid. They found one group of 94 illegal immigrants and 64 of them had the virus. It isn't the same.

I thought the point of using statistics was to bolster one's argument. You've managed to find supporting data that has totally undermined what you were arguing. Well done.
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I would respond to the points you make, but the tone of your post is very aggressive so I don't think I'll bother. You really need to work on your manners.
 
No......I think TheSpirit Of53 put it so well....That notorange had nowhere to go and he just gave up.
Whether the poster is far Left or right....read what they write.....Don't be that stupid that you believe whats written on a social forum without checking it out.....
 
TheSpiritOf53 said:
As I understand the point you're trying to make is that there is,

1) A significant enough number of people entering the country illegally (Britain is an attractive place to come if you have some English and currently live in poverty).

2) Their mode of entry doesn't allow for social distancing so therefore they are at greater risk of contracting the virus. Although you don't mention it their living and working conditions are likely to increase the spread of the virus too.

3) Their illegal status means they will undermine the efforts of track and trace.

Why then do you need to pad out the argument with a load of dubious statistics and make claims that aren't supported by your so-called facts? You've looked for the highest estimate of illegal immigration you can find rather than the soundest estimate then unsurprisingly people challenge those figures and they begin to look dubious. Then there is Malta. The Maltese have never claimed that 76% of illegal immigrants have Covid. They found one group of 94 illegal immigrants and 64 of them had the virus. It isn't the same.

I thought the point of using statistics was to bolster one's argument. You've managed to find supporting data that has totally undermined what you were arguing. Well done.
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Excellent post which was confirmed by the pathetic response.
 
CalmDown said:
Poster posts links to facts and figures on an immigration related topic.

Posters immediately gets called racist, by the usual suspects who troll this politics forum.

That’s the problem with this type of topic now.
It’s almost impossible to raise and attempt to debate. Without getting shouted down and accused of racism - not just by the usual suspects on here, in all walks of life too.
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Thats exactly what they want to do so in that scenario they are actually winning...publicly...but judging by what friends and family say in private (aka the silent majority) they are losing and losing big. It'll all kick off eventually. Just get the popcorn ready
 
Wizaard said:
Once they're outside the 6 mile limit they are in international waters and can't be picked up by the French navy unless in trouble hence the shadowing but not intervening. There is no substance in the insinuation that the French are colluding in them getting here.
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The French should be rounding up illegals themselves, ready for processing.
 
OK I'll take the bait. I don't have to justify anything in the OP, but since the hard of thinking have decided to join in the debate I will do. Thespiritof53 says:

1. You've looked for the highest estimate of illegal immigration you can find rather than the soundest estimate.

I’ve used the ONLY estimate of illegal immigration, namely the one leaked to the media and endorsed by the former Director General of Immigration Enforcement. So, clearly, that statement is nonsense

2. The Maltese have never claimed that 76% of illegal immigrants have Covid.

Nobody suggested they did. If you had bothered to read the post would find I said "The Malta government raised concern recently because 76% of illegal immigrants found by them tested positive for CV-19"


I can't see how I can make this topic any simpler to understand but I'll be happy to spell it out in words of single syllables if you still can't grasp it. Here are the facts again
  • A large number of immigrants enter the UK each year and disappear into the black economy
  • The number is not known because the government has avoided researching the matter, but the foremost authority on immigration and former Director General of Immigration Enforcement suggests it has been as many as 150,000 per year.
  • The Malta government raised concern recently because 76% of illegal immigrants found by them tested positive for CV-19.
  • The actual numbers of immigrants in Malta were small but the authorities warned that groups travelling long distances together could be similarly infected
  • In view of the number of immigrants illegally entering this country after travelling in groups and the fact that they cannot be traced in the UK, it seems like a significant infection risk that track-and-trace cannot remedy.
 
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UK Border officials have warned in today's papers that people coming into the country illegally are not being routinely tested for covid-19 and are not put into quarantine. The General Secretary of the ISU, the union for borders, immigration and customs, said it was ‘almost inevitable’ that migrants who are early stage symptomatic or are shedding the virus and are not symptomatic are being routinely released into the UK".

The warning comes after a surge in illegal immigration following the French police scaling back their protection of the Channel coast. The Union said
“immigrants are not tested and we cannot detain them against their will where there is no realistic prospect of removal from the UK". They are simply sent off into the country. "Most don’t speak English and even if we could tell them about self-isolating, they don’t have the means to achieve it”. Natalie Elphicke MP for Dover has called for all illegal immigrants to be put into quarantine for two weeks upon arrival.

The Home Office said “there is absolutely no evidence to support these irresponsible and offensive claims”. However, I think I’d rather believe the officers who are doing the job than the Home Office spokesman. In fact, it looks very much like a re-run of hospitals sending untested infected patients out into nursing homes. Bear in mind that everything I said in the OP relates to unidentified immigrants, but today's warning extends this to those who are identified, so the position seems much worse than I first suggested.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Illegal migrants with coronavirus 'inevitably entering UK'

Border officials warn people coming to the country illegally are not being routinely tested or put in quarantine
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
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Wizaard said:
here is no substance in the insinuation that the French are colluding in them getting here.
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BBC reporter on a French beach near Calais filmed migrants boarding a large dingy which they had trouble getting going and reported
the incident to the French Police, they turned up FOUR hours later so obviously not a priority for the French authorities.

However the French police have been taking down tents used by the immigrants around Calais and confiscating them, they have made it quite clear in the past they do not want immigrants in the area and are taking a blind eye to those wishing to cross the Channel, 4000 have crossed since January, how many have perished at seas is not known.
 
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There are so many questions that need answering with regard to the current immigration situation.

1. Why are so many immigrants determined to risk their lives to reach the UK having passed through safe European countries to get to the Channel?
2. Why are the French so impotent in dealing with the immigrants in transit? And why are they demanding another £30m from the UK to do the job more effectively?
3. Why is the UK government releasing identified immigrants into the UK without virus testing and without quarantine when even UK nationals can't return here without 14 days quarantine?
4. Why is the government claiming the borders, immigration and customs officers doing the work are making "irresponsible and offensive claims" about their experience of the lack of testing and quarantine?

Seems like an absolute mess and a potentially life-threatening mess at that.
 
With regard to point 1, in Europe it is compulsory to carry an identity card or passport. Not so in the UK where you can disappear.
Point 2. The French don't want these people on their hands so turn a blind eye.
3 & 4 because they are useless.
 
tommytwojags said:
There are so many questions that need answering with regard to the current immigration situation.

1. Why are so many immigrants determined to risk their lives to reach the UK having passed through safe European countries to get to the Channel?
2. Why are the French so impotent in dealing with the immigrants in transit? And why are they demanding another £30m from the UK to do the job more effectively?
3. Why is the UK government releasing identified immigrants into the UK without virus testing and without quarantine when even UK nationals can't return here without 14 days quarantine?
4. Why is the government claiming the borders, immigration and customs officers doing the work are making "irresponsible and offensive claims" about their experience of the lack of testing and quarantine?

Seems like an absolute mess and a potentially life-threatening mess at that.
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It's Boris Johnson's government of sycophants and incompetents. Why are you surprised? The only thing this government does well is corruption.
 
Perhaps we need big signs on the beaches of Dover stating “Did you not realise we are leaving Europe? Our future is doomed. Turn back and save yourselves”
 
B_Side_The_C_Side said:
Before this becomes really boring...

1.) The 800k - 1.2m has been debunked as incorrect as it's a total guess....just follow the links to the BBC article you obviously didn't bother reading.
2.) "150k illegal immigrants every year".....Again, just follow the link to the 'official' Gov.uk site showing the removal of illegal immigrants.
90% of those entering the UK are gone within 3 months and the 10% remainder within 6 months......2019 lowest levels for 12 years
So your 150k entering every year and remaining is made up bolloxs
3.) "Pointing out that illegal immigration numbers are falling is irrelevant to the issue"..but that's the point of your 1st paragraph...and argument!!!!
4.) " I’d like to concede that you make some valid points B-side but you really don’t"......Why not just say you cant understand a reasoned discussion.
5.) "Seeking to dispute the facts is..... "childish"......even though I gave you proof that your 'facts' are incorrect and from credible sources.... your comments are still directed at immigrants and not C-19

You seem to want to point out the fact that a few hundred immigrants coming into the UK during lockdown are joining up with these mysterious 1.2m other illegal immigrants and that's where there's a real threat from C-19.......but you just ignore the millions of UK residents who are already flouting the law, don't wear a mask in the pub or choose ignore social distancing on a daily basis......Are these not the main cause.....But you seem to want to highlight immigrants who are the problem.......like they all have C-19 and are here just to infect us......which is plainly not true.

And as for Calm Down......well...........I'm the only English member of a family of immigrants who came here in the mid 60's.
As a kid I watched as they encountered prejudice, hate and discrimination from inbred knuckle draggers.....I also have never bought a copy of the Guardian in my life.
But I read about immigrants who are fleeing war, discrimination and persecution......and the opening post is just a mild horror post that other knuckle draggers would agree with as (like the O/P) they wouldn't bother to do their own research or reading and realise it's just scaremongering with a hint of Alf Garnett (one for the oldies)

Anyway......highly unlikely to change your mind....even with all the facts and articles...but hey ho.....I think people make up their own minds.
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Why don’t they stay in France? Before you accuse me of being a knuckle dragger, or racist, I have an African sister in law and two nephews, as well as a black friend who’s parents came with the windrush generation. So again, why won’t they stay in safe France?
 
Wizaard said:
Once they're outside the 6 mile limit they are in international waters and can't be picked up by the French navy unless in trouble hence the shadowing but not intervening. There is no substance in the insinuation that the French are colluding in them getting here.
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Why don’t they intervene inside 6 my miles?
 
So let’s say there’s 1m illegal immigrants in the country, I presume none are paying tax and Ni, so how do they access medical care, schools for their kids etc?
 
Mates...I'd hoped this one had died a natural death but just to answer your question.

I have no idea why 'they' don't stay in France, there must be a reason....financial? would be my first honest thought.....
I would have also said religious and racial persecution within France..... as it does have a very large openly right wing leaning against immigrants.

Also my comment about being a Knuckle dragger wasn't a generalisation about anyone who didn't agree with me....it was more the generalisation about people who instantly get a hard on for anyone who's not 'English'...or not like them.....

And as for the French intervening.......why would they..... if they knew they were leaving and were no longer 'your' problem.
If it was the other way round....I bet Nigel would be giving out free rubber dinghies, life jackets and sandwiches at Dover to get rid of immigrants.
 
Number of asylum applicants in France during 2019 = 128,940

Number of asylum applicants in UK in 12 months to end of September 2019 = 34,354

Statistics - Asylum Information Database | European Council on Refugees and Exiles

Overview of statistical practice In France, detailed statistics on asylum applications and first instance decisions are published annually by the Office of Protection of Refugees and Stateless Persons (OFPRA) in its activity reports. The next OFPRA Activity Report will be published in spring...
www.asylumineurope.org www.asylumineurope.org

How many people do we grant asylum or protection to?

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
B_Side_The_C_Side said:
Mates...I'd hoped this one had died a natural death but just to answer your question.

I have no idea why 'they' don't stay in France, there must be a reason....financial? would be my first honest thought.....
I would have also said religious and racial persecution within France..... as it does have a very large openly right wing leaning against immigrants.

Also my comment about being a Knuckle dragger wasn't a generalisation about anyone who didn't agree with me....it was more the generalisation about people who instantly get a hard on for anyone who's not 'English'...or not like them.....

And as for the French intervening.......why would they..... if they knew they were leaving and were no longer 'your' problem.
If it was the other way round....I bet Nigel would be giving out free rubber dinghies, life jackets and sandwiches at Dover to get rid of immigrants.
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As I understand it they’re supposed to legally seek asylum in the first country they land in. If that’s the case then the French, or whichever other country they landed in first should process them. You wonder why the U.K. isn’t pursuing that.
 
Matesrates said:
As I understand it they’re supposed to legally seek asylum in the first country they land in. If that’s the case then the French, or whichever other country they landed in first should process them. You wonder why the U.K. isn’t pursuing that.
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No, not true.
 
If we bused all the immigrants to Rotherham on arrival they’d be scrambling back in a dingy ASAP and hot tailing back to Calais apologising in their best French.
 
bollieboy said:
Number of asylum applicants in France during 2019 = 128,940

Number of asylum applicants in UK in 12 months to end of September 2019 = 34,354

Statistics - Asylum Information Database | European Council on Refugees and Exiles

Overview of statistical practice In France, detailed statistics on asylum applications and first instance decisions are published annually by the Office of Protection of Refugees and Stateless Persons (OFPRA) in its activity reports. The next OFPRA Activity Report will be published in spring...
www.asylumineurope.org www.asylumineurope.org

How many people do we grant asylum or protection to?

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
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Will you please stop challenging people’s prejudices with the facts. It just annoys them! This is why your type keeps losing elections.
 
bollieboy said:
Number of asylum applicants in France during 2019 = 128,940
Number of asylum applicants in UK in 12 months to end of September 2019 = 34,354
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You've missed the 150K unidentified annual immigrants in the UK.
And the 67% of applicants rejected by France.


Wizaard said:
Once they're outside the 6 mile limit they are in international waters and can't be picked up by the French navy unless in trouble hence the shadowing but not intervening. There is no substance in the insinuation that the French are colludinapplications rejected by FrANCEg in them getting here.
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The UK's territorial limit is 12 nautical miles. Immigrants can be picked up by the French navy outside 6 miles. It's clear that the French are colluding with the illegals by turning a blind eye when they leave France and/or escorting them to UK waters. So not much right there.
 
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tangerinenotorange said:
You've missed the 150K unidentified annual immigrants in the UK




The UK's territorial limit is 12 miles. Immigrants can be picked up by the French navy outside 6 miles. It's clear that the French are colluding with the illegals by turning a blind eye when they leave France and/or escorting them to UK waters. So not much right there.
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It seems that Donk....sorry Tonto.... sorry tangerinenotorigamo.... is losing the plot.

To quote you.... source please.

And preferably not a Russian bot, counterfeit BBC website or dodgy RW “think” tank.

Thank you.
 
Some of the xenophobic posters on here needn't worry.

These ghastly foreign types rarely disturb the hedgerows on Privet Road.
 
Macseasider said:
Some of the xenophobic posters on here needn't worry.

These ghastly foreign types rarely disturb the hedgerows on Privet Road.
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MAC you’re a good poster, you were a decent MOD, I share some of your views ... but!

If there were rails... You seem to have gone off them?’
 
tangerinenotorange said:
You've missed the 150K unidentified annual immigrants in the UK.
And the 67% of applicants rejected by France.
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The post is referring to asylum seekers - you seem to be having trouble differentiating between asylum seekers and illegal immigrants. 54 % of UK claims for asylum were rejected up to the end of year June 2019.

The majority of people crossing the channel in small boats are looking to seek asylum.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
It seems that Donk....sorry Tonto.... sorry tangerinenotorigamo.... is losing the plot.
To quote you.... source please.
And preferably not a Russian bot, counterfeit BBC website or dodgy RW “think” tank.
Thank you.
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There are so many posters on here demanding sources for everything that I can't keep up. I'm not sure whether people don't believe me or just have trouble understanding things. I think everything I've posted in this thread has been well and truly provenanced already, but I'm always pleased to oblige where possible. 😆
 
The fact of the matter is that the Revolutionary Communist Party now has a firm grip over the Tories. Munira in control at No10, with her number 2 Dominic causing distraction and taking all the flak. Boris thoroughly compromised after the Bunga Bunga parties. Claire installed in the House of Lords. The Brexit Boys Bought.

There’s an acronym spies use to remind themselves how you recruit agents. MICE.

Money - Russian Gold. Now who might that be?
Ideology - Once a commie always a commie. The goal is to undermine the UK - its institutions and economy. Dressed up as “kicking over the bricks” and “taking back control”.
Coercion - hope it was a good party Bojo.
Excitement - Subterfuge has to be better than coordinating the sourcing of PPE.

What do you reckon Tonto? Close to the mark?
 
So you have an extra 150,000 illegals coming in every year..... 🤔

So that's an average of: 12,500 a month or 2,800 a week....or 411 a day....every day (including Christmas Day)
Or put it this way.....1 sold out Stenna Cruise Liner every week or 1 Boeing 747 (inc 1st Class) EVERY DAY......34 people EVERY HOUR.....😱

Since the start of 2020, 2,500 migrants have successfully made it across to the UK, according to analysis by the Press Association.
So where did the other 97,500 coming in?????? (That's 8 months at 12,500 -2,500)
And if there are 97,500 coming in elsewhere.....How are they getting in?

Your figures just don't make sense
 
B_Side_The_C_Side said:
So you have an extra 150,000 illegals coming in every year..... 🤔

So that's an average of: 12,500 a month or 2,800 a week....or 411 a day....every day (including Christmas Day)
Or put it this way.....1 sold out Stenna Cruise Liner every week or 1 Boeing 747 (inc 1st Class) EVERY DAY......34 people EVERY HOUR.....😱

Since the start of 2020, 2,500 migrants have successfully made it across to the UK, according to analysis by the Press Association.
So where did the other 97,500 coming in?????? (That's 8 months at 12,500 -2,500)
And if there are 97,500 coming in elsewhere.....How are they getting in?

Your figures just don't make sense
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Not my figures my friend, but reported by the highest qualified person in the UK to make such a judgment, none other than the former UK Director General of Immigration Enforcement, who led a team of over 5000 staff responsible for cross-government actions to reduce immigration abuse. 'Former' being the most important word because a government which pretends there is minimal illegal immigration would never have allowed a serving DGIE to spill the beans in this way.

Read "The Politics of Fantasy" by Alasdair Palmer and David Wood and learn how 40,000 illegal immigrants each year arrive by lorry drops, but how this is paltry compared with the number of students and workers remaining in the UK after expiry of their visas. Add to these the increasing number of illegals arriving by boat and those who have sought asylum in Britain whose claims for that status are rejected, but who remain in the UK and yes the real experts say 150,000 per annum. Does the government want you to know this? Does it ****.
 
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"David Wood joined the Home Office in 2008 and was appointed Director General of Immigration Enforcement from 2013 to 2014.
David left the Home Office in 2015 and is now a Director of BGS Ltd, a global security company.

So this 'leak' you base your 'facts' on was actually published in 2017 by the think tank Civitas.....
It's title was "Immigration targets: impossible without stronger enforcement."
You may not know but Davids company, BGS Ltd specialises in providing Border Security and Immigration Enforcement....!!

It sounds like David was touting for some enforcement business for his company back in 2017 when he 'leaked' those 'secret' figures.
Figures that nobody can back up or even say they are happening in 2020.....5 years after David left his job..
 
basilrobbie said:
You are just showing your ignorance now. Go and read about the paper's history, I think you'll get the reference then.
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Even Mosley’s mob weren’t on a par with The Nazi party.

Although from you, it doesn’t surprise me you’d sink so low to back up your spurious point.

How do your posts escape such as strict moderation, basilrobbie?
 
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B_Side_The_C_Side said:
"David Wood joined the Home Office in 2008 and was appointed Director General of Immigration Enforcement from 2013 to 2014.
David left the Home Office in 2015 and is now a Director of BGS Ltd, a global security company.

So this 'leak' you base your 'facts' on was actually published in 2017 by the think tank Civitas.....
It's title was "Immigration targets: impossible without stronger enforcement."
You may not know but Davids company, BGS Ltd specialises in providing Border Security and Immigration Enforcement....!!

It sounds like David was touting for some enforcement business for his company back in 2017 when he 'leaked' those 'secret' figures.
Figures that nobody can back up or even say they are happening in 2020.....5 years after David left his job..
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HaHa you are hilarious Bside. You just can't accept a straight answer from someone if it doesn't fit in with your agenda. Cat's even funnier though. Always blames the media source when proved wrong. Now blaming the publisher because a book undermines his beloved Tory government by spilling the beans on its immigration fiasco. You couldn't make it up.😆
 
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