The problem with this formation…

A

Adams Kebab

Well-known member
Is that there is a reliance on your wing-backs to create.

Tonight, the one on the right didn’t want the ball for 3/4 of the game and in the 2nd half when he did get it, he wanted to go backwards or lost it. The right foot shot from the edge of the 6 yard box that went backwards was something else.

The one on the left, barely got a kick but gave very little offensively.

Couple this with a strange selection at home to Port Vale of Carey off Lavery, with the number 10 role also reluctant to get on the ball and Dougall who can’t turn forwards with the ball resulted in a poor display and little option for Marv who needs options as he’s just not very good on the ball. Defensively he’s quality.

James Husband provided the most creativity tonight. Always been a fan for his commitment and leadership but didn’t think we’d have to rely on his creativity. He was MOM.

Just let that sink in.

If this is the formation we need to be signing:

-A wing-back who gets forward and creates
- A striker
- Another central midfielder

Thought Weir looked sharp bar for a stray pass.

I’m desperate for Carey to do well but he’s just not at it, sad he wasn’t trying to get on the ball enough 1st half.

It’s early doors and it’s League 1 because if that was the Championship tonight we’d have definitely got punished.

We have to set-up like it’s Port Vale at home and not Real Madrid in the future…
 
Agreed with all that based on what I saw on Saturday and tonight.
High hopes for Weir based on his cameo. He clearly has something that Carey and Morgan (early days I know) don’t.
And CJ’s shot just defies description. Unless it was the best disguised pass of all time??
 
Qblock said:
Agreed with all that based on what I saw on Saturday and tonight.
High hopes for Weir based on his cameo. He clearly has something that Carey and Morgan (early days I know) don’t.
And CJ’s shot just defies description. Unless it was the best disguised pass of all time??
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With CJ, the thing that’s most alarming to me, is how much he doesn’t want the ball.

A footballer who doesn’t want the ball.
 
Adams Kebab said:
With CJ, the thing that’s most alarming to me, is how much he doesn’t want the ball.

A footballer who doesn’t want the ball.
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I don’t think he wants it in the position he’s being played. On the left with space to run into and the ball played ahead of him he’s a threat. Or as a sub against a tiring team his pace is a threat.
But his end product is always going to be consistently inconsistent. Anyone hoping that changes is delusional.
As pointed out on another thread I think he gets a bit of unwarranted abuse. He is what he is, if he’s going to be picked every week then play him where he might do some damage.
 
Adams Kebab said:
Is that there is a reliance on your wing-backs to create.

Tonight, the one on the right didn’t want the ball for 3/4 of the game and in the 2nd half when he did get it, he wanted to go backwards or lost it. The right foot shot from the edge of the 6 yard box that went backwards was something else.

The one on the left, barely got a kick but gave very little offensively.

Couple this with a strange selection at home to Port Vale of Carey off Lavery, with the number 10 role also reluctant to get on the ball and Dougall who can’t turn forwards with the ball resulted in a poor display and little option for Marv who needs options as he’s just not very good on the ball. Defensively he’s quality.

James Husband provided the most creativity tonight. Always been a fan for his commitment and leadership but didn’t think we’d have to rely on his creativity. He was MOM.

Just let that sink in.

If this is the formation we need to be signing:

-A wing-back who gets forward and creates
- A striker
- Another central midfielder

Thought Weir looked sharp bar for a stray pass.

I’m desperate for Carey to do well but he’s just not at it, sad he wasn’t trying to get on the ball enough 1st half.

It’s early doors and it’s League 1 because if that was the Championship tonight we’d have definitely got punished.

We have to set-up like it’s Port Vale at home and not Real Madrid in the future…
Click to expand...
Seriously, Marv does not need options, he goes to pieces when there is more than one possible pass. By the time he’s decided he’s lost possession or given it away.

The key problem with this formation is Marv not being able to pass or step into midfield with the ball, to pull opposition players out and create space. Casey did it, and we looked good.

Marv is a good defender, he’s not a ball player. In this formation he’s a liability with the ball. What happened in the first half is that Grimmy had to take over to some extent, and second half Norburn had to play so deep it impacted our balance in the middle and upfront.

It can’t go on, I like the lad, but we have Connolly and Pennington. Tonight he should have cost us the points, same at Exeter. Plenty of other occasions too.
 
I wonder if Pep will try Kyle Walker at left back or maybe Poch is tempted to try Chilwell at right back.

It’s pathetic.
 
Qblock said:
Agreed with all that based on what I saw on Saturday and tonight.
High hopes for Weir based on his cameo. He clearly has something that Carey and Morgan (early days I know) don’t.
And CJ’s shot just defies description. Unless it was the best disguised pass of all time??
Click to expand...
Carey offers very little, Morgan was good 2nd half. Norburn, Morgan, and Weir is a decent middle 3, put Joseph and Lavery as front 2 and Lyons on the right Hamilton/Thompson left and results will probably improve.
 
Sometimes, just sometimes (and last season a lot of the time), a team comes out before kick off and you look at it and think nah.
Sorry Critch, looked at that team last night and it just looked messy. No rhyme or reason at all and I knew we'd have a frustrating night.
It's a reminder that last time we were in this league that Critch does like to over-think what the opposition might do and not what he will do.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Seriously, Marv does not need options, he goes to pieces when there is more than one possible pass. By the time he’s decided he’s lost possession or given it away.

The key problem with this formation is Marv not being able to pass or step into midfield with the ball, to pull opposition players out and create space. Casey did it, and we looked good.

Marv is a good defender, he’s not a ball player. In this formation he’s a liability with the ball. What happened in the first half is that Grimmy had to take over to some extent, and second half Norburn had to play so deep it impacted our balance in the middle and upfront.

It can’t go on, I like the lad, but we have Connolly and Pennington. Tonight he should have cost us the points, same at Exeter. Plenty of other occasions too.
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Think back to when Keith Southern used to get panned regularly on here. Now, Keith was a good tackler, he could break up opposition moves. However, he never had a raking pass in him or an ability to carry the ball up field. So, Holloway's solution was not to drop Keith but to allow him to do what he could do well, whilst leaving the passing and movement to others. Enter David Vaughan. Keith breaks up the play and makes a short pass to David Vaughan who positions himself such that Keith can easily find him. Vaughan then works with Adam and others to build our attack.
 
The formation is all wrong.

The midfield is sort of a diamond and seems almost to get in the way of the wing-backs (who I agree are totally the wrong way around). Dougall has never played left mid as far as I can recall and had to check back all the time as he's 100% right footed. If he plays, he's next to Norburn ala Stewart/Dougall did.

Carey - just not up to it - think he's been subbed in every game (?) and if Weir is fit, he has to replace him on Saturday.

Jimmy should not be our most creative player...pretty sure that's not in the game plan but fair play to him for going forward and doing exactly that. Always gives 100%.

I'm not sure why we don't go 4-2-3-1 or even 4-4 effin 2. This 5 at the back seems to strangle any chance of creativity we have.

Desperately need a win on Saturday against what appears to be a poor Orient outfit.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Think back to when Keith Southern used to get panned regularly on here. Now, Keith was a good tackler, he could break up opposition moves. However, he never had a raking pass in him or an ability to carry the ball up field. So, Holloway's solution was not to drop Keith but to allow him to do what he could do well, whilst leaving the passing and movement to others. Enter David Vaughan. Keith breaks up the play and makes a short pass to David Vaughan who positions himself such that Keith can easily find him. Vaughan then works with Adam and others to build our attack.
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Yes, but Marv is playing in the centre of a back 3, with responsibility for distributing the ball. It’s critical that happens well in this formation. The only way we could mirror the example you give is to change formation. That won’t happen, so the answer is to drop Marv. His defending and recovery is good, but often he’s created the problem in the first place.
 
Schalke_FY4 said:
The formation is all wrong.

The midfield is sort of a diamond and seems almost to get in the way of the wing-backs (who I agree are totally the wrong way around). Dougall has never played left mid as far as I can recall and had to check back all the time as he's 100% right footed. If he plays, he's next to Norburn ala Stewart/Dougall did.

Carey - just not up to it - think he's been subbed in every game (?) and if Weir is fit, he has to replace him on Saturday.

Jimmy should not be our most creative player...pretty sure that's not in the game plan but fair play to him for going forward and doing exactly that. Always gives 100%.

I'm not sure why we don't go 4-2-3-1 or even 4-4 effin 2. This 5 at the back seems to strangle any chance of creativity we have.

Desperately need a win on Saturday against what appears to be a poor Orient outfit.
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Yep, I'm desperate for us to get this right but it just simply isn't yet. There were gaping holes in the middle last night that a better team would have exploited. We're crying out for a wellens type player to sit and command the "middle hole" and feed the ball through the middle or into the wing areas.

If you're using Lavery as a sole striker then he needs the ball at his feet or through balls to run onto - it's no good chucking them up at his head. Also, It says something that our left sided central defender Husband was by far our most aggressive and creative player last night
 
Gabriel will be right back when fit and Lyon’s will play left
Biggest problem is how we attack the box, all to often only one or two in the box when a cross comes in and normally surrounded by defenders. Work needs to be done, one front post, one back post one 6 yard box one penalty spot one edge of box give the crosser some options. Movement from the frontline was shocking last night, only Lavery was trying to find space, I thought Sunny would come of age this year but done the square root of F all so far this season. We also need one of the theee at the back to be able to carry the ball forwards if this is the way we will play, Pennington has to play on the right of the three. As well as Casey has done tbf.
 
I have no faith in Critchley.
Full stop
I think he has become arrogant
Last nights game was horrible to watch
It was like watching a McCarthy 11

I dont get the adulation many in the crowd have with him.

Play your best players in their best position
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Yes, but Marv is playing in the centre of a back 3, with responsibility for distributing the ball. It’s critical that happens well in this formation. The only way we could mirror the example you give is to change formation. That won’t happen, so the answer is to drop Marv. His defending and recovery is good, but often he’s created the problem in the first place.
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Keep the formation and have Norburn come deep to do the fetching and carrying. Better still, give that job to Trybull (OK, I know), and leave Norburn to coordinate the forward play. I'm not standing on ceremony here btw, just looking for views.
 
AmericanTangerine said:
Agreed, there is a massive reliance on this formation’s wing backs to provide quality.

Still early days and am confident Critch will sort it out.
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I hope so. I,ve set off this season with renewed optimistic targets . Another game like the last 2 and I will probably ease off the away games.But let's hope Saturday against the mighty Leyton Orient you are right
 
I think one of the key issues with this formation is getting the support to the front two as they can’t do it all on their own. Several times last night either Lavery was the only man in the box, or he broke out wide only to find there was nobody in the box. Morgan and Dougall (or in previous games Carey) are positioning themselves more like wide men, getting in the way of the wing backs, rather than as offensive midfielders. If we’re sticking with a back 5 I’d be tempted to play with two deeper midfielders and one more attacking in the 10 role behind the front two. That would take some of the shackles off Norburn as playing on a two would mean one could go and one could sit at any one point
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Keep the formation and have Norburn come deep to do the fetching and carrying. Better still, give that job to Trybull (OK, I know), and leave Norburn to coordinate the forward play. I'm not standing on ceremony here btw, just looking for views.
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The formation collapses if you do that, and it doesn’t deal with the core issue. Norburn needs to be able to receive the ball from the back. That’s how the formation works, as changing one thing impacts the other midfield players and wingbacks. If Norburn is having to start play, we effectively have a back 4.

Answer is Casey in the middle and Connolly at right side of the 3.
 
To some up we were pretty awful last night with so many poor individual performances. But why was that? To me the answer is pretty simple. It was all down to Critchleys team selection. It seemed he knew how they would play so rather than choose to counter- act it he chose to match it in terms of flooding our midfield. Port Vale were very well organised and happy to concede possession to us in our own half but we just did not have the movement in the centre of midfield to cause any problems and they tightly marked our wing backs so in effect we had no outlets so resorted to playing long balls up to a small player in Lavery. I don't buy into the nonsense from Critchley that we played well. We didn't! We had plenty of possession but did nothing with it. The tempo of the game from us was far too slow. Our defence had pretty much no-one forward to pass to because PV sat deep and allowed our defence to have the ball and then forcing us to go long or attempt risky passes. My concern is that this was all so obvious pretty much from the first few minutes but Critchley did nothing to change it. It was crying out for Beesley at half time. In fact Critchley could have even made the change after 30 minutes and got him on for Carey.

So yep team selection was very poor and he pretty much played to Port Vales strengths and did nothing about it for an hour.
 
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Watching the Burton game it was obvious that our system was heavily reliant on wing backs but we didnt pick a wing back to play in the team and I was critical of that at the time, as were others. We created zilch from wide positions. Last week i suggested Lyons and Husband are probably our best existing options. Its not rocket science and i do think Critch gets some obvious stuff wrong.
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
The formation collapses if you do that, and it doesn’t deal with the core issue. Norburn needs to be able to receive the ball from the back. That’s how the formation works, as changing one thing impacts the other midfield players and wingbacks. If Norburn is having to start play, we effectively have a back 4.

Answer is Casey in the middle and Connolly at right side of the 3.
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OK, I'll leave it there. My closing comment would be that the formation should serve the football, not vice versa.
 
Adams Kebab said:
Is that there is a reliance on your wing-backs to create.

Tonight, the one on the right didn’t want the ball for 3/4 of the game and in the 2nd half when he did get it, he wanted to go backwards or lost it. The right foot shot from the edge of the 6 yard box that went backwards was something else.

The one on the left, barely got a kick but gave very little offensively.

Couple this with a strange selection at home to Port Vale of Carey off Lavery, with the number 10 role also reluctant to get on the ball and Dougall who can’t turn forwards with the ball resulted in a poor display and little option for Marv who needs options as he’s just not very good on the ball. Defensively he’s quality.

James Husband provided the most creativity tonight. Always been a fan for his commitment and leadership but didn’t think we’d have to rely on his creativity. He was MOM.

Just let that sink in.

If this is the formation we need to be signing:

-A wing-back who gets forward and creates
- A striker
- Another central midfielder

Thought Weir looked sharp bar for a stray pass.

I’m desperate for Carey to do well but he’s just not at it, sad he wasn’t trying to get on the ball enough 1st half.

It’s early doors and it’s League 1 because if that was the Championship tonight we’d have definitely got punished.

We have to set-up like it’s Port Vale at home and not Real Madrid in the future…
Click to expand...
The guy behind me was demanding Carey be subbed after his first touch. Loudly. Is it any wonder Carey looked downbeat with support like that.
 
Adams Kebab said:
Is that there is a reliance on your wing-backs to create.

Tonight, the one on the right didn’t want the ball for 3/4 of the game and in the 2nd half when he did get it, he wanted to go backwards or lost it. The right foot shot from the edge of the 6 yard box that went backwards was something else.

The one on the left, barely got a kick but gave very little offensively.

Couple this with a strange selection at home to Port Vale of Carey off Lavery, with the number 10 role also reluctant to get on the ball and Dougall who can’t turn forwards with the ball resulted in a poor display and little option for Marv who needs options as he’s just not very good on the ball. Defensively he’s quality.

James Husband provided the most creativity tonight. Always been a fan for his commitment and leadership but didn’t think we’d have to rely on his creativity. He was MOM.

Just let that sink in.

If this is the formation we need to be signing:

-A wing-back who gets forward and creates
- A striker
- Another central midfielder

Thought Weir looked sharp bar for a stray pass.

I’m desperate for Carey to do well but he’s just not at it, sad he wasn’t trying to get on the ball enough 1st half.

It’s early doors and it’s League 1 because if that was the Championship tonight we’d have definitely got punished.

We have to set-up like it’s Port Vale at home and not Real Madrid in the future…
Click to expand...
both wing backs got forward CJ skinned his guy a few times but he's then on his weaker right foot to cross, he did win a number of corners which we largely did nothing with, but . . . . c'est la vie.

Lyons got forward but didn't get any meaningful balls into the box he did a tame header at goal, and i seem to remember a shot as well.

hubby got behind their defence four or five times creating at least half chances - we weren't getting enough players into the box last night against their nine players crowding it.

because morgan has a strong tendency to drift wide the right flank was very crowded leaving not a great deal of space to move in and out of or do overlaps.

flip over the wing backs from last night and you have a more natural set up which literally works to players strengths. CJ's pace and his ability to get in good left foot crosses from the byeline, and works to lyons strenths in the same way and his ability to get unseen into the box for shooting opportunities. I just find this reversed set up bizarre.

Carey just couldnt get into the game after he got booked, which was a ridiculous booking.
 
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