War again

Seasider3610 said:
I don’t think he has said anywhere that he supports Hamas did he?
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Well, he's certainly not condemned their terrorism or the attempts of every nation and tribe that have invaded the Jewish homeland since the Babylonians in 724 BC to eradicate or at the very least drive out from their homeland the Jewish race. A homeland that it should be noted, the Jewish people settled long before the first people who would ultimately become the English arrived on this island

So, I would suggest that by failing to condemn that terrorism he tacitly approves of it
 
Johnno said:
I see this as a last ditch attempt to get everyone else involved. It’s all or nothing time for Palestine. If they can’t force other Arab states, and then the super powers by extension, to get involved, they’re doomed anyway.
There’s no chance of there ever being a peaceful solution. Too much recent history between two totally opposed goals. Unfortunately,
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I think that’s probably right. It’s a “kick over the bricks and let’s see what happens” moment.

The Hamas atrocities (and they are and will be horrible) are intended to provoke a massive response from Israel. And there’s no doubt they have the capability and arms to do it. It’s not a balanced fight. To use the current terminology “it’s asymmetrical”.

And when the World sees the Israeli response there’ll be a backlash. Which i suspect is why the US are engaging. To limit the Israeli response at the same time as enabling Arab allies to say “it’s not Israel. It’s the US”.

And remember Israel internally is already very divided as a result of Netanyahu’s attempts to cripple the judiciary and avoid corruption charges. Which is probably why Hamas chose now to attack.
 
April13th1970 said:
Well, he's certainly not condemned their terrorism or the attempts of every nation and tribe that have invaded the Jewish homeland since the Babylonians in 724 BC to eradicate or at the very least drive out from their homeland the Jewish race. A homeland that it should be noted, the Jewish people settled long before the first people who would ultimately become the English arrived on this island

So, I would suggest that by failing to condemn that terrorism he tacitly approves of it
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And I would suggest that by failing to condemn the murders of British soldiers and civilians by Israeli terrorists you are also tacitly approving it.

Quite easy this BS Bingo game isn’t it.
 
April13th1970 said:
Well, he's certainly not condemned their terrorism or the attempts of every nation and tribe that have invaded the Jewish homeland since the Babylonians in 724 BC to eradicate or at the very least drive out from their homeland the Jewish race. A homeland that it should be noted, the Jewish people settled long before the first people who would ultimately become the English arrived on this island

So, I would suggest that by failing to condemn that terrorism he tacitly approves of it
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Err, what part of “I’m against atrocities by anyone….” don’t you understand?
And most of the rest you’re saying is whataboutery bollocks to be honest.
 
U. S. Deploying navel vessels and aircraft to the area as a deterrent. Let’s hope that doesn’t inflame the situation.
 
Matesrates said:
U. S. Deploying navel vessels and aircraft to the area as a deterrent. Let’s hope that doesn’t inflame the situation.
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I don’t think they are going there for nothing if truth be known all depends on what happens over the next few days and if Iran get involved being the main backers of Hamas.

Although that said Israel is more than capable with dealing with this on its own.

I’m just shocked the Israeli security forces didn’t have a sniff of this happening it’s not like half a dozen terrorists were out to cause havoc it was on a massive scale.
 
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Matesrates said:
It looks to me that there’s no chance of a negotiated settlement, if there was, it would have been done before now. The only hope is that this latest conflict settles down quickly and they go back to the status quo. The worry is that it will escalate with Hezbollah entering the conflict.
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Think Hamas were trying to undermine the improving relationship with Saudi Arabia who were considering recognising Israel as a state., probably succeeded.
 
OneStepBeyond said:
Plenty of evidence of Israeli's shooting kids but you've kept quiet about that, I wonder why...

www.hrw.org

West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children

The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability.
www.hrw.org www.hrw.org

Sick and tired of people like you using the last few days to try and claim some sort of moral high ground. Both sides have acted atrociously for years.
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I certainly don't condone anyone breaking their rules of engagement, but as your link makes clear, the majority of these "children" were 16/17 and throwing rocks, Molotovs or "fireworks" at the time, so it's already an edge case for use of force, and I strongly suspect that Hamas uses these events as cover for more lethal attacks such as every child's favourite, the fragmentation grenade.

So factor in that you're mostly talking about relatively poorly trained conscripts, not much more than a year or two older than these "children", and you're asking for mistakes to be made, which of course is a world away from the deliberate murder of 600 civilians in one day.
 
Johnno said:
I see this as a last ditch attempt to get everyone else involved. It’s all or nothing time for Palestine. If they can’t force other Arab states, and then the super powers by extension, to get involved, they’re doomed anyway.
There’s no chance of there ever being a peaceful solution. Too much recent history between two totally opposed goals. Unfortunately,
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tangysider said:
Think Hamas were trying to undermine the improving relationship with Saudi Arabia who were considering recognising Israel as a state., probably succeeded.
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I think it's an attack by Iran, at the behest of Russia, to advance Russian interests in the war in Ukraine, and thus has absolutely nothing to do with any acts by Israel, other than the simple act of existing.

It will probably succeed.
 
Lost Seasider said:
I certainly don't condone anyone breaking their rules of engagement, but as your link makes clear, the majority of these "children" were 16/17 and throwing rocks, Molotovs or "fireworks" at the time, so it's already an edge case for use of force, and I strongly suspect that Hamas uses these events as cover for more lethal attacks such as every child's favourite, the fragmentation grenade.

So factor in that you're mostly talking about relatively poorly trained conscripts, not much more than a year or two older than these "children", and you're asking for mistakes to be made, which of course is a world away from the deliberate murder of 600 civilians in one day.
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You really are burying your head in the sand. You can Google a ton of reports of Israeli attacks down the years on children.

There is no good guy here.

Even just yesterday a 13 year old was killed but that's ok because "mistakes".

Both sides are a joke.

This guy sums up my view succinctly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710734570503463273
 
OneStepBeyond said:
You really are burying your head in the sand. You can Google a ton of reports of Israeli attacks down the years on children.

There is no good guy here.

Even just yesterday a 13 year old was killed but that's ok because "mistakes".

Both sides are a joke.

This guy sums up my view succinctly:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1710734570503463273
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Just adding some balance, these "fireworks" are not Roman Candles, they are at a guess on a par with the largest explosion that you would hear at an organized festival, only instead of happening 1,000 ft away, it's gone off right next to you, then you remember that last week 2 of your friends lost their legs because one of the "rocks" was in fact a hand grenade, and what is your perception of "threat to life"?

You only ever hear one side from the anti-Israeli lobby, you are falling into the same trap.
 
American Navy on their way? I’m gobsmacked! I wonder why they feel the need to intervene.
Ah well, hopefully they’ll keep petrol prices down. Fuck all to do with stopping genocide though, I’m guessing.
 
It's funny that for everything in this world there is a limit for it. However for a war there is almost certainly always money to be spent,loaned,borrowed and most importantly made by people in high places and positions in the safety and knowledge that out of other peoples death, misery and despair that they can become even richer.
This world truly is a fucked up place and the majority of us follow sides and a narrative that doesn't even effect us and we know very little about. We're all drawn into mindless conflicts for no other reason than that we choose to believe what we are told is right or wrong by the people that we are misguided in thinking they have our best interests at heart.
If the bible and God's word was the truth He would have put an end to this deranged, wicked and evil world many, many years ago.
 
Seasider1 said:
It's funny that for everything in this world there is a limit for it. However for a war there is almost certainly always money to be spent,loaned,borrowed and most importantly made by people in high places and positions in the safety and knowledge that out of other peoples death, misery and despair that they can become even richer.
This world truly is a fucked up place and the majority of us follow sides and a narrative that doesn't even effect us and we know very little about. We're all drawn into mindless conflicts for no other reason than that we choose to believe what we are told is right or wrong by the people that we are misguided in thinking they have our best interests at heart.
If the bible and God's word was the truth He would have put an end to this deranged, wicked and evil world many, many years ago.
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Ironically for some on here, arguably the most peaceful era of peace in the Middle East was for the 400 years or so after the birth of Islam. Even though non Muslim people were seen as second class, they were acknowledged as protected communities, free to follow their own religion and secular laws. Funnily enough, Christians killed all that.
 
Tangerinemoss said:
As usual, AVFTT springs a few surprises. Very well read contributors seeing the historical roots and perspective, unlike the mainstream media, which is massively Israel good, Palestine evil.

Negotiation is the only solution to stopping Hamas committing atrocities, and Israel stealing Palestinian land.
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Can there be negotiation with Hamas? They're ideologically opposed to the state of Israel and are a tool/extension of Iran who are also just backing them to try and antagonise and destabalise Israel. Neither have any interest in negotiating with Israel as far as I can tell. Until the Palestinians realise they're being used as human shields by these ideological nutcases, and put forward /choose some alternative leadership, then negotiation seems impossible to me.

Not saying Israel is blameless, clearly they're not, their own leadership is pretty bonkers at the minute also.
 
BWseasider said:
Can there be negotiation with Hamas? They're ideologically opposed to the state of Israel and are a tool/extension of Iran who are also just backing them to try and antagonise and destabalise Israel. Neither have any interest in negotiating with Israel as far as I can tell. Until the Palestinians realise they're being used as human shields by these ideological nutcases, and put forward /choose some alternative leadership, then negotiation seems impossible to me.

Not saying Israel is blameless, clearly they're not, their own leadership is pretty bonkers at the minute also.
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I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
 
Johnno said:
I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
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Ok there’s a lot of strawmanning going on here but I’ll reply in good faith.

Hamas are categorically backed by Iran. There’s no debate to be had there. I never said Iran “engineered all this”, not sure what “all this” you’re referring to there. I said they’re backed by Iran which is true, but if you’re referring to the recent attack, then “engineering it all” no, supporting it and aiding Hamas in enabling them to do it? Then yes. Hamas say so themselves:

www.wsj.com

Hamas Says Attacks on Israel Were Backed by Iran

A spokesman for Hamas, Ghazi Hamad, told the BBC that the militant group had received support from its ally Iran for its surprise attacks on Israel. Others have helped too, he told the broadcaster without naming them. Hamad said that the violence came in response to attacks by Jewish settlers in th
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com

Obviously they need help from Iran as they’re basically under siege conditions in Gaza so they need some sort of external assistance to function/procure weaponry etc. They are massively dependent on Iran and to Iran they are a useful tool.

“Are you surprised they are ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force”

No of course not. But they’re not just opposed to that are they? They are opposed to the state of Israel and want all 8 million Jews in Israel gone. They aren’t interested in peaceful settlement that would prevent occupation/oppression. So when discussing negotiations it’s hard to see how they’re going to negotiate a peaceful settlement for all sides. Especially when their main backer wouldn’t support it. I don’t think Hamas actually represent what most Palestinians want. There’s a reason they haven’t held an election in Gaza since 2006. The Palestinian Authority who run the West Bank have described their thinking as decades old.

The Israeli leadership is bonkers at the moment. To suggest that its current government is representative of all Israeli administrations is also wrong. That’s not to say all previous Israeli governments were good either. I was just pointing out how difficult a negotiated settlement would be (impossible) given the current leaderships of both sides, even if Palestinians had some proper leadership that was interested in negotiation that they would struggle to negotiate with the Israeli government of today, which wasn’t always the case in the past, it wasn’t really a commentary on Israel’s past administrations.
 
Johnno said:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content...18gWvRptuXaF5u3UHDMiAYso8oM.jpeg?imwidth=680I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
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Explain all that bulls** to her please:
TELEMMGLPICT000352454705_16967613018780_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqqxNvcTF_YrAC5lYm18gWvRptuXaF5u3UHDM...jpeg
 
Lost Seasider said:
Explain all that bulls** to her please:
View attachment 16780
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Lost, do you want a peaceful solution to this conflict, or do you want Palestine wiped from the face of history?

The late lamented Mo Mowlem sat down with terorists and produced a peaceful solution to a 80 year long murderous conflict. That is my model for success, not who ever has the biggest bombs wins.
 
Johnno said:
I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
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Really?
So where do you think the Hamas fighters got over 5,000 rockets from? Where do you think the Hamas fighters got thousands of machine guns and ammunition from?
Where do you think it got its heavy transport mounted machine guns from?
In fact where do you think these hundreds if not thousands of Hamas fighters were trained and who by?
Why do you think America is sending ships there right now?
The whole dam thing smells of Iran to me and it’s going to come out after all this just wait and see.
 
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As posted by someone else the biggest question that needs answering is " Considering the massive intelligence both inside and outside Hamas Israel have along with supposedly an iron dome defence how on earth did this happen. Or be LET to happen in the first place?????
 
Seasider1 said:
As posted by someone else the biggest question that needs answering is " Considering the massive intelligence both inside and outside Hamas Israel have along with supposedly an iron dome defence how on earth did this happen. Or be LET to happen in the first place?????
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That’s the question which will be dealt with at some point, especially why the iron dome system didn’t stop the missiles. We’re there collaborators, was there a cyber attack which stopped it working, and of course how they kept it secret.
 
Johnno said:
I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
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This is the powder keg which will burn down the west, Iran has been building this for a long time along with other gulf states and of course the west's new friend, Turkey! War is hell and politicians and arms manufacturers love it.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Really?
So where do you think the Hamas fighters got over 5,000 rockets from? Where do you think the Hamas fighters got thousands of machine guns and ammunition from?
Where do you think it got its heavy transport mounted machine guns from?
In fact where do you think these hundreds if not thousands of Hamas fighters were trained and who by?
Why do you think America is sending ships there right now?
The whole dam thing smells of Iran to me and it’s going to come out after all this just wait and see.
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afghanistan! Thanks Sleepy Joe
 
Corbyn apparently refuses to condemn Hamas and John McDonald is reported to be noting a march to the Israeli embassy.
 
Israel has been killing Palestinians since it's conception. Israel controls what goes in and out of Gaza, it's water and it's fuel. Gaza is the biggest refugee camp on earth & If they dare to up rise they are flattened as history shows...so despite all the land grabs, blockades and control the Palestinians still uprise...so now what?
 
Matesrates said:
Corbyn apparently refuses to condemn Hamas and John McDonald is reported to be noting a march to the Israeli embassy.
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Jeremy Corbyn on the latest troubles in the Middle East.

"The unfolding events in Israel and Palestine are deeply alarming.
We need an immediate ceasefire and urgent de-escalation to prevent any further loss of life.
And we need a route out of this tragic cycle of violence: ending the occupation is the only means of achieving a just and lasting peace"



The voice of reason I'd say?
 
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Thousands of rockets still pummelling Israel and they have ordered the complete siege of Gaza, with no electricity or food. They control the airspace over Gaza. Tanks and troops massing near the border, this is going to be a devastating war.
 
Johnno said:
I don’t think Iran engineered all this. And are you surprised that Hamas is ideologically opposed to their people being oppressed by an occupational force?
To point out that Israeli leadership is a bit bonkers at the moment whitewashes their leadership for the past 75 years.
I find it amazing that in this day and age, people still find this acceptable, but are willing to spend billions on arms for other conflicts. Geo Politics is scandalous.
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Just over 50 years since Palestinian gunmen murdered athletes at Munich.
That was another massive own goal but got world attention.
Israel has undoubtably acted abominally in the past, but the mass slaughter of unarmed civilians cannot be condoned by any right thinking person, and puts back the Palestinian cause by decades.
Comments by countries like Qatar that Israel brought it on themselves, also create distrust to Arabs in general, which is unfair but natural.
 
tangysider said:
Just over 50 years since Palestinian gunmen murdered athletes at Munich.
That was another massive own goal but got world attention.
Israel has undoubtably acted abominally in the past, but the mass slaughter of unarmed civilians cannot be condoned by any right thinking person, and puts back the Palestinian cause by decades.
Comments by countries like Qatar that Israel brought it on themselves, also create distrust to Arabs in general, which is unfair but natural.
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48 Palestinian children died in 2023. Do they count??
 
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Lost Seasider said:
If you want to justify this using Israel's past actions, I think you should see the face of the woman murdered (and likely far worse) and then paraded through the streets as a trophy.
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It is possible to hate the murderous attack by Hamas and also hate the brutality of the Israeli state machine at the same time. You don't have to pick a side, the whole situation is a horrific tragedy that will only eventually be resolved by compromise on both sides.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It is possible to hate the murderous attack by Hamas and also hate the brutality of the Israeli state machine at the same time. You don't have to pick a side, the whole situation is a horrific tragedy that will only eventually be resolved by compromise on both sides.
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Sadly, I think we’ve gone past the point of compromise. And I suspect we’ve got there deliberately by Hamas.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It is possible to hate the murderous attack by Hamas and also hate the brutality of the Israeli state machine at the same time. You don't have to pick a side, the whole situation is a horrific tragedy that will only eventually be resolved by compromise on both sides.
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That's not how it works in practice, 600 dead and people are talking about Israeli brutality instead.
 
Back to Ukraine, are we getting to catastrophe stage
 

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The big players need to get together and come up with a solid solution, if not, it’s going to be a bloodbath.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Intro: According to reporting by Al-Jazeera, the leader of Hamas has said the group is on the verge of a great victory.

1.22 - it's all the Israeli's fault.

5.00 - only way to stop violence is to end the Israeli occupation.

Left it there.
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Ok, it's now confirmed you have no idea what you're taking about and aren't able to discuss/debate this issue properly.
 
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