£3,549

About 20 years ago I heard for the first time the advice to turn the thermostat down by 1 degree to save money on heating costs.

Every year I hear the same message. I’m sure we’ll hear it again ahead of this winter.

It’s ok advice if you’re a young new homeowner starting out on life’s journey. But if you’re a bit older you eventually get to the point where you can no longer turn the thermostat down cos it’s already at zero having been turned down by another 1 degree each year. 🤷‍♂️
 
I can see a clamour for folk to return to office working rather than home working. Employers are going to have some issues with unions and their employees cos they’ve saved money by reducing their estates and having staff work at home (or splitting their working week across home and office) but they’ll in effect see their employees bearing an unforeseen high cost to work at home.

Employees may well have to compensate home workers or they will see them return to the office in droves.

There’s going to be a big drop in disposable income for many people. They’ll have less spare money if any spare at all. That means no trip to the cafe or pub or the footy match etc etc. Life will become very miserable very quickly for many millions.

This could indeed be compounded by a deep recession as we could well see businesses scale back or close their doors due to the high energy costs. The cost of producing goods will drive inflation. Unemployment will rise and there will be very little the government can do about it. The scale of government debt is huge following the pandemic so their arms are tied to a great extent.

It’s all looking very bleak. There needs to be a radical rethink of how we run the energy system because as things stand it’s no longer viable and it’s probably the biggest risk to our country for decades. Probably a bigger risk than covid was.
 
Malced said:
I can see a clamour for folk to return to office working rather than home working. Employers are going to have some issues with unions and their employees cos they’ve saved money by reducing their estates and having staff work at home (or splitting their working week across home and office) but they’ll in effect see their employees bearing an unforeseen high cost to work at home.

Employees may well have to compensate home workers or they will see them return to the office in droves.

There’s going to be a big drop in disposable income for many people. They’ll have less spare money if any spare at all. That means no trip to the cafe or pub or the footy match etc etc. Life will become very miserable very quickly for many millions.

This could indeed be compounded by a deep recession as we could well see businesses scale back or close their doors due to the high energy costs. The cost of producing goods will drive inflation. Unemployment will rise and there will be very little the government can do about it. The scale of government debt is huge following the pandemic so their arms are tied to a great extent.

It’s all looking very bleak. There needs to be a radical rethink of how we run the energy system because as things stand it’s no longer viable and it’s probably the biggest risk to our country for decades. Probably a bigger risk than covid was.
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Yep, Jacob Rees Mogg could get his wish.
 
I am not sure that ever one understands that this figure given us is for an average family . Your bills could be 10,000 a year if you have 3 or 4 kids with seperate bedrooms and electronic devises.
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
I am not sure that ever one understands that this figure given us is for an average family . Your bills could be 10,000 a year if you have 3 or 4 kids with seperate bedrooms and electronic devises.
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Correct I'm convinced some think this is the maximum they'll pay and others the minium.

Live in a 5 bed house £3,549
One room bedsit £3,549
Which ain't true all this figure does is confuse people.
 
Scaramanga said:
Now I know you like a good wind up Lytham, but who’s going to fix this ? Genuine question.
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I don't think anyone's in a position to solve the problem but Labour's plan to freeze the energy price cap would go some way to mitigating it.
The £29bn plan would prevent the energy price cap from rising through the winter, paid for by extra tax from oil and gas giants who are making eye-watering profits. The emergency package is designed to reduce energy demand and lower bills in the longer term by insulating 19 million homes across the country over the next decade through Labour’s Warm Homes Plan. It is calculated that freezing the price cap will bring inflation down by 4%, making future interest rate rises less likely and easing the burden on households and businesses. Polling by Opinium has found very high public support for the plan, including from a majority of Tory voters.
 
poolseasider said:
Correct I'm convinced some think this is the maximum they'll pay and others the minium.

Live in a 5 bed house £3,549
One room bedsit £3,549
Which ain't true all this figure does is confuse people.
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Yes the only figures people need to know are..
electricity 52p per kwt hour
Gas 15p per kwt hour
Up from Approx 30p and 7p
And up a lot more than 18 months ago…..
Ps I presume in Jan it will be 60p ish and 17p ish and then April god knows how high..
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I don't think anyone's in a position to solve the problem but Labour's plan to freeze the energy price cap would go some way to mitigating it.
The £29bn plan would prevent the energy price cap from rising through the winter, paid for by extra tax from oil and gas giants who are making eye-watering profits. The emergency package is designed to reduce energy demand and lower bills in the longer term by insulating 19 million homes across the country over the next decade through Labour’s Warm Homes Plan. It is calculated that freezing the price cap will bring inflation down by 4%, making future interest rate rises less likely and easing the burden on households and businesses. Polling by Opinium has found very high public support for the plan, including from a majority of Tory voters.
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The IFS says the figures are flawed. But our course in the absence of other free money offers it’s gonna be popular.
 
Malced said:
The IFS says the figures are flawed. But our course in the absence of other free money offers it’s gonna be popular.
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There's nothing free about it. You use the term as a put-down. I would say that a price-freeze has merit, as does the insulating of homes as a Government strategy.
 
Wizaard said:
We were happy to find billions to pay businesses for 18 months. A winter of no price increases would cost far less. As it is, no doubt there will be another windfall tax at some point and some will be delighted to get 5% of their own money back, while the companies see it as barely a dent in their profits.

Was it the Shell boss who said they had that big a profit they didn't know what to do with it?

The French can do it. Why can't we?
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Not sure, somethings not quite right.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
There's nothing free about it. You use the term as a put-down. I would say that a price-freeze has merit, as does the insulating of homes as a Government strategy.
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Not a put down at all. It’s a fact. Every option will cost. If you ask the average person on the street if they agree with their bills not going up of course it’s gonna be popular. How surprising. Labour’s is an incorrect flawed estimate according to the IFS. It’s also a six month sticking plaster - no more. It solves nothing.

All parties are as bad as each other. They play political games to try and grab popular headlines. That’s all Labour are doing. They can’t even be straight with the public and give the real cost. But that’s typical of them.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I don't think anyone's in a position to solve the problem but Labour's plan to freeze the energy price cap would go some way to mitigating it.
The £29bn plan would prevent the energy price cap from rising through the winter, paid for by extra tax from oil and gas giants who are making eye-watering profits. The emergency package is designed to reduce energy demand and lower bills in the longer term by insulating 19 million homes across the country over the next decade through Labour’s Warm Homes Plan. It is calculated that freezing the price cap will bring inflation down by 4%, making future interest rate rises less likely and easing the burden on households and businesses. Polling by Opinium has found very high public support for the plan, including from a majority of Tory voters.
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Well the way things are going they will get their chance. Only time will tell if they will do it or it works.
 
Malced said:
Not a put down at all. It’s a fact. Every option will cost. If you ask the average person on the street if they agree with their bills not going up of course it’s gonna be popular. How surprising. Labour’s is an incorrect flawed estimate according to the IFS. It’s also a six month sticking plaster - no more. It solves nothing.

All parties are as bad as each other. They play political games to try and grab popular headlines. That’s all Labour are doing. They can’t even be straight with the public and give the real cost. But that’s typical of them.
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Surely you'll see that we've had 12 consecutive years of grabbing popular headlines to absolutely no effect, constantly lying, as seen in the current incumbent of the top office.

As a consequence, we're in a complete meltdown that is constantly blamed on everything as if they've had no input. All the power with a complete lack of any attempt to be accountable for their decisions, or even their failure to make a decision.
 
bollieboy said:
Don't worry Truss has got a plan. She is going to keep the country warm by having a bonfire of environmental and employment regulations.
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Plus, don't forget she's going to reduce taxes for the higher earners, and make the lazy plebs work harder.

It does make sense, though. If you work harder you get warmer and don't need the heating on for so long.

And she's launching large hamster-type wheels for the old and sick. A few hours on these, and you'll be able to generate enough electricity to power a kettle.
 
Frightening stuff this whole cost of living crisis. The poor will suffer the most as they always do and it is not hard to see many more dying because they do not have the means to nourish themselves and keep warm. To allow this is truly wicked. It will put an immense strain on the NHS which barely manages every single winter. Many more will be pushed into debt and it cannot be long before many start withholding payments for such things as fuel bills and council tax because they simply cannot afford to pay more. Civil unrest in the form of such things as rioting must be a real possibility. A police force weakened by so many cuts and in the opinion of many not really fit for purpose. There really does need to be a radical rethink on energy policy and imperative that the disparity in the wealth between the rich and the poorest is addressed. The establishment may have a lot more to lose than they think.
 
Wizaard said:
Surely you'll see that we've had 12 consecutive years of grabbing popular headlines to absolutely no effect, constantly lying, as seen in the current incumbent of the top office.

As a consequence, we're in a complete meltdown that is constantly blamed on everything as if they've had no input. All the power with a complete lack of any attempt to be accountable for their decisions, or even their failure to make a decision.
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If we are in meltdown then it’s because of Putin invading Ukraine soon after the covid pandemic (wholesale gas prices have risen 5-fold in the last 12 months) which was soon after the huge change where we left the EU.

I don’t quite see it as 12 years of governing to no effect and lying. But as I say, they’re all as bad as each other. The latest two of truss and sunak, with Starmer sniping away at the sidelines, pretty much sums up what politics is in the country - petty, self-serving and incompetent.
 
Ruperthoop said:
Frightening stuff this whole cost of living crisis. The poor will suffer the most as they always do and it is not hard to see many more dying because they do not have the means to nourish themselves and keep warm. To allow this is truly wicked. It will put an immense strain on the NHS which barely manages every single winter. Many more will be pushed into debt and it cannot be long before many start withholding payments for such things as fuel bills and council tax because they simply cannot afford to pay more. Civil unrest in the form of such things as rioting must be a real possibility. A police force weakened by so many cuts and in the opinion of many not really fit for purpose. There really does need to be a radical rethink on energy policy and imperative that the disparity in the wealth between the rich and the poorest is addressed. The establishment may have a lot more to lose than they think.
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Agree with every word of that. It is not a case of people deciding not to pay, they will not be able to pay. That changes the game. Bet OFGEM haven't factored in the massive unpaid bills which will result. Or maybe they have, in which case they are even more of the problem.
 
Malced said:
If we are in meltdown then it’s because of Putin invading Ukraine soon after the covid pandemic (wholesale gas prices have risen 5-fold in the last 12 months) which was soon after the huge change where we left the EU.

I don’t quite see it as 12 years of governing to no effect and lying. But as I say, they’re all as bad as each other. The latest two of truss and sunak, with Starmer sniping away at the sidelines, pretty much sums up what politics is in the country - petty, self-serving and incompetent.
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'They're all as bad as each other' is what the Tories are pushing, as they can't fight an election on their record. That's worse than the Black Lace Greatest Hits.
 
Malced said:
If we are in meltdown then it’s because of Putin invading Ukraine soon after the covid pandemic (wholesale gas prices have risen 5-fold in the last 12 months) which was soon after the huge change where we left the EU.

I don’t quite see it as 12 years of governing to no effect and lying. But as I say, they’re all as bad as each other. The latest two of truss and sunak, with Starmer sniping away at the sidelines, pretty much sums up what politics is in the country - petty, self-serving and incompetent.
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Well kind of, we're in meltdown because no governments, including over the past 12 years, did anything to address our dependence on foreign oil, they'd rather take the donations instead.

Since when do sitting governments not take the blame for shit that happens on their watch? If not then what's the point of them?
 
Malced said:
If we are in meltdown then it’s because of Putin invading Ukraine soon after the covid pandemic (wholesale gas prices have risen 5-fold in the last 12 months) which was soon after the huge change where we left the EU.

I don’t quite see it as 12 years of governing to no effect and lying. But as I say, they’re all as bad as each other. The latest two of truss and sunak, with Starmer sniping away at the sidelines, pretty much sums up what politics is in the country - petty, self-serving and incompetent.
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Don't you just hate it when the leader of the oppositition criticises the government during a national crisis they are doing nothing to stop. Makes you sick.
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
I am not sure that ever one understands that this figure given us is for an average family . Your bills could be 10,000 a year if you have 3 or 4 kids with seperate bedrooms and electronic devises.
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We’ll be paying 700 a month from October with British Gas on a year’s fixed tariff for a large 4 bed semi😔
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I don't think anyone's in a position to solve the problem but Labour's plan to freeze the energy price cap would go some way to mitigating it.
The £29bn plan would prevent the energy price cap from rising through the winter, paid for by extra tax from oil and gas giants who are making eye-watering profits. The emergency package is designed to reduce energy demand and lower bills in the longer term by insulating 19 million homes across the country over the next decade through Labour’s Warm Homes Plan. It is calculated that freezing the price cap will bring inflation down by 4%, making future interest rate rises less likely and easing the burden on households and businesses. Polling by Opinium has found very high public support for the plan, including from a majority of Tory voters.
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It would go some way to mitigating it temporarily, very short term, unless of course you just want to throw 20 billion plus at the problem every few years. I'm not convinced by the inflation argument simply because I'm not convinced the current inflation rate rises have as their cause recent activities (COVID, Ukraine etc) the causes are more long term, and inflation over the last twenty years or more has been artificially suppressed, also inflation and cost of living are not as connected as normally portrayed. To illustrate; the cost of living crisis has been with us since I would say the late 90s, the availability of very cheap credit at every point in the supply chain from extraction to end consumer has masked the cost of living increases, but there comes a point (now) when there is a perfect storm of events that turns what is an economy functioning at the very edge of functionality to one that is collapsing.

New players came onto the market whose primary revenue generator isn't supplying energy, they are leveraging futures and other energy markets and often using energy in the financial system in typical financial system ways. That has provided "competition" based exclusively on the consumer price, so all companies have to bring down charges to stay in the market which forces more of them into speculative activities. These speculative activities brings development to very short term points of view in that the infrastructure and its potential failure is just another point on the speculative risk graph, which can be mostly ignored until near failure. When near failure arrives if they even see it arriving the money behind simply bails out.

I was advocating a while ago for de-profitising (not nationalising) energy and other utilities amongst a few other things, the problem with that is the energy companies and their core profitability are a biggish part of pension plans for workers, so a wholesale de-profitisation programme hurts primarily workers in the long term as much as nationalisation would. The models I have looked at all predominantly impact ordinary workers / people either directly at point of implementation or further down the line even when the changes are specifically designed to help them. The actual act of Starmer's proposal would do little more than prop up a broken industry for another decade.

The issues about rising energy costs get highlighted every few years, but its always seen and analysed as a temporary crisis, and the basic system, as in finance and a couple of other sectors just weathers the immediate storm whilst conditioning the public to a new normal.
 
foggy said:
Don't you just hate it when the leader of the oppositition criticises the government during a national crisis they are doing nothing to stop. Makes you sick.
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You actually hit the nail on the head. That’s all this is. It’s a statement to put pressure on the government to do something.
I’ve no problem with that. A strong opposition (which we haven’t had for many years) is good for democracy.
 
Ruperthoop said:
Frightening stuff this whole cost of living crisis. The poor will suffer the most as they always do and it is not hard to see many more dying because they do not have the means to nourish themselves and keep warm. To allow this is truly wicked. It will put an immense strain on the NHS which barely manages every single winter. Many more will be pushed into debt and it cannot be long before many start withholding payments for such things as fuel bills and council tax because they simply cannot afford to pay more. Civil unrest in the form of such things as rioting must be a real possibility. A police force weakened by so many cuts and in the opinion of many not really fit for purpose. There really does need to be a radical rethink on energy policy and imperative that the disparity in the wealth between the rich and the poorest is addressed. The establishment may have a lot more to lose than they think.
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The current favourite to be PM says no handouts and will offer tax breaks. So the poorest, who don't earn enough to pay tax, will get the least support.

Heartless.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Well kind of, we're in meltdown because no governments, including over the past 12 years, did anything to address our dependence on foreign oil, they'd rather take the donations instead.

Since when do sitting governments not take the blame for shit that happens on their watch? If not then what's the point of them?
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It depends what you’re talking about. If it’s a world event beyond their control then it’s completely wrong to blame a sitting government. Putin invading Ukraine is such an event. The impact of that is driving instability, gas price rises, inflation etc.
 
Malced said:
It depends what you’re talking about. If it’s a world event beyond their control then it’s completely wrong to blame a sitting government. Putin invading Ukraine is such an event. The impact of that is driving instability, gas price rises, inflation etc.
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But they were warned time and time again about dependence on foreign oil?

Did they think Putin was stable when they took the 'donations'?
 
Wizaard said:
The current favourite to be PM says no handouts and will offer tax breaks. So the poorest, who don't earn enough to pay tax, will get the least support.

Heartless.
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HMT has prepared a package of options which have been costed and prepared for implementation. They’re awaiting the attention of the to be new PM. They will tackle impacts from the price cap being raised in the future. Theres already measures in place for the energy price rises to date. Some of which we haven’t yet seen the benefit of eg the £400 to be repaid to us by energy firms over the coming months. I think the communication to reassure the public has been sadly lacking due to the infighting between sunak and truss. Yea the two have different ideas on how to address the problem but they will address it. In principle truss believes that supporting business leads to greater investment which leads to growth and jobs. But in special circumstances we need special measures. So I’m convinced we will see much more help for business and citizens. Saying she’s heartless is unfair. When she does provide help will that because she’s suddenly developed empathy and a caring personality? No. She’s likely going to be the PM and she has and will make tough decisions based on the best interests of all in the round.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
But they were warned time and time again about dependence on foreign oil?

Did they think Putin was stable when they took the 'donations'?
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Trump was telling Europe to be less reliant on Russia for gas and oil but no one listened to him. The UK is much less reliant on Russia than other large European countries.

I’m not sure what relevance their is with the donations. In the scheme of things it’s neither here nor there. Putin has acted unpredictability and it’s caused the issues we are now seeing.

Russia was not a terrorist state so yeah we had dealings with their country and their citizens.
 
Malced said:
Trump was telling Europe to be less reliant on Russia for gas and oil but no one listened to him. The UK is much less reliant on Russia than other large European countries.

I’m not sure what relevance their is with the donations. In the scheme of things it’s neither here nor there. Putin has acted unpredictability and it’s caused the issues we are now seeing.

Russia was not a terrorist state so yeah we had dealings with their country and their citizens.
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MI6 didn't want to pass on some material to Boris when he was the Foreign Secretary because of his links with Russian KGB personnel. He ran roughshod over concerns, as he always does.
 
Not only shows the difference between the have and have nots but also the savvy and sadly those who just don't understand how these things work. I went on a tariff last year as soon as I heard this was brewing (and they all forecast it from Summer even without the Russian invasion) and got myself a decent tariff which actually means I should be fine until 2025 by which time the world will either be a better place or blown up!
They should teach kids at school and the elderly (or those who want to know) the basics of economic prudence as guarantee that those most hard up are probably spending OTT for every utility because of a lack of financial know how (and that isn't intended to be cruel).
 
Malced said:
It depends what you’re talking about. If it’s a world event beyond their control then it’s completely wrong to blame a sitting government. Putin invading Ukraine is such an event. The impact of that is driving instability, gas price rises, inflation etc.
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Well firstly, inflation was already skyrocketing before Russia invaded. Secondly, consumers in the UK are going to be hit harder than other countries, based on current (non-existent) policies. So saying that has nothing to do with government is pretty farcical.
 
foggy said:
Well firstly, inflation was already skyrocketing before Russia invaded. Secondly, consumers in the UK are going to be hit harder than other countries, based on current (non-existent) policies. So saying that has nothing to do with government is pretty farcical.
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Nah that’s nonsense. Inflation is only at these ridiculously high levels due to the Russia effect.
Yea it was higher than the Bank of England target rate but it’s rocketed out of all proportion because of the invasion and it’s impact on fuel and food supplies. That’s not farcical. It’s farcical if you’re in denial about the Russian invasion of Ukraine being far and away the biggest driver of inflation by far.
 
Malced said:
Nah that’s nonsense. Inflation is only at these ridiculously high levels due to the Russia effect.
Yea it was higher than the Bank of England target rate but it’s rocketed out of all proportion because of the invasion and it’s impact on fuel and food supplies. That’s not farcical. It’s farcical if you’re in denial about the Russian invasion f Ukraine being fat and away the biggest driver of inflation by far.
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Inflation was at over 6% already when Russia invaded
 
Dave62 said:
I think the price cap only applies to domestic consumers?

Businesses are probably going to have to pay higher, with a high possibility of businesses closing down, resulting in job losses. It's becoming a very vicious circle. The government just haven't got a grip at all, kicking the can down the road until a new PM is appointed is making matters worse.

I saw on the news that an estimated 7/10 pubs might close in the winter because opening is no longer viable!!
So it's already starting to hit businesses plans now.

Then up again in January as posted already. Jeez, we're paying 340 pm now.
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I don't get this at all. The conservatives were voted in to govern, not to ** about playing politics between themselves.

This is probably the most dire economic situation I've encountered in my adult life and they're talking about dealing with it 'in a few weeks'

Eh? They should be the government first and foremost and their internal affairs should come a distant second to that.
 
Wizaard said:
6.2% in February.

Explain that one.
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Why should I have to explain it?
It’s so petty that anyone anti-Tory will look to blame the worlds problems onto one government and their decisions.

Inflation across the world rose after the pandemic due to supply chain issues. People stopped making things during the pandemic as they had to stay at home and isolate. So inevitably there was a shortage of goods and demand couldn’t be catered for once lockdowns ended. That drove inflation.
Quantitative easing also has an inflationary effect and this was used by many countries to help their economies keep turning.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine has driven inflation into double figures. We wouldn’t have seen this otherwise. You can moan about the government, and rightly so for many reasons, but with covid and Ukraine and their combined effects it’s absolutely ridiculous to blame them for inflationary effects outside of their control.
 
Lost Seasider said:
That was down to supply chain issues as a result of Covid, something that affects all countries and not just the uk.
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Supply chain issues due to covid and absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

It's almost as if this Government use covid and Ukraine as the excuse for absolutely everything.
 
Malced said:
Why should I have to explain it?
It’s so petty that anyone anti-Tory will look to blame the worlds problems onto one government and their decisions.

Inflation across the world rose after the pandemic due to supply chain issues. People stopped making things during the pandemic as they had to stay at home and isolate. So inevitably there was a shortage of goods and demand couldn’t be catered for once lockdowns ended. That drove inflation.
Quantitative easing also has an inflationary effect and this was used by many countries to help their economies keep turning.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine has driven inflation into double figures. We wouldn’t have seen this otherwise. You can moan about the government, and rightly so for many reasons, but with covid and Ukraine and their combined effects it’s absolutely ridiculous to blame them for inflationary effects outside of their control.
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Building costs and materials were sky rocketing in price long before Russia invaded Ukraine. That was down to supply and demand as were many of the price rises after the pandemic. Manufacturers and suppliers saw demand spike and inevitably prices went up. It was the end of the lockdowns which fuelled the first big rise in inflation. The Russian invasion just poured more fuel on the inflationary fire.
 
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