BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
What do you mean by this bit Mark?
A few things still bugging me
- Thread starter Philbfctrois
- Start date
td53
Well-known member
We lose that revenue so your point is merely semantic. Costs only go down if you've planned contractually for that situation.
What I want is people in the ground in order to build the long term business.
I want the team to stay up and it is undeniable that Bowler is absolutely crucial to us. It's not merely aesthetic, he carries a disproportionate threat, he carries the ball way more than anyone, he has way more shots than anyone.
Am I being entirely realistic? Maybe not. If I was Sadler though, I'd be looking at bids of 2.5 or 3m and laughing. I would, to use an apt turn of phrase, hedge my bets, as I would be aware that such money is significantly lower than the reward of survival.
Obviously more money and the calculation gets harder.
poolseasider
Well-known member
No it isn't he's our best forward by a mile and you ain't going to replace that quality with out someone being on 20k a 3yr deal which we ain't paying keeping him is almost like having a million pound player for a season.
If your only going to 2/3 games a membership is a waste of time it just gives you a fiver off per match your stuck with the £30 I'm afraid.
Philbfctrois
Well-known member
Philbfctrois
Well-known member
Yep it doesn't make any sense at all
td53
Well-known member
Also, we're getting mugged off by clubs offering shit bids. If some of the average dross being sold for 40/50m is worth it, Bowler is worth way more than we're being offered whether or not his contract is up.
If a club wants him now. Pay up.
He's very good.
Otherwise, next.
Better for our long term goals to be seen as a club who will play hardball and get the fee than soft touch that folds at the flash of a wallet.
The Premier League is insanely rich so why accept EFL level money for Bowler?
If a club wants him now. Pay up.
He's very good.
Otherwise, next.
Better for our long term goals to be seen as a club who will play hardball and get the fee than soft touch that folds at the flash of a wallet.
The Premier League is insanely rich so why accept EFL level money for Bowler?
AmericanTangerine
Well-known member
Fair play don't think that's a bad take whatsoever as he's a special player and absolutely one of the best in the division, but is he necessary to us staying up?
I would be with you and Phil if we were looking really poor and it appeared like we needed him in order to stay up, but I think we would be fine without him, sure there would be a drop off, but from what I've seen in Appleton and the team so far (especially with all of the player injured) is that we have a very solid Championship squad with or without Josh Bowler. However, I also think if we keep him we'll be safer much much easier and earlier though...
Last year I feared for losing Bowler in January, because Critchley's style of play was so reliant on him, but now I don't think that's the case and I think missing out on an extra 4m or so for a player would.
I think the disagreement more or less comes down to how well we think the team will fair without him (particularly with regards to our ability to fight off relegation); I think we will easily stay up with or without him which is why I think we should cash in, and you and Phil don't which is why you think we should keep him.
I've said before on other threads that I am fine with either outcome (but would prefer cashing in slightly more), because I really do see how both outcomes play out to our benefit in the long term.
Philbfctrois
Well-known member
Nothing?
He cost us nothing and we have enjoyed him for 2 seasons
We should be absolutely trying to keep him as we simply can't and won't replace him for the money being talked about
SeasideMac
Well-known member
Some of Bowlers play was unbelievable yesterday. The ball seems to be stuck to his boot sometimes. Constantly had 4/5 players around him and still finds a way out. What I also liked is that he was through the middle towards the 2.tend and looked quality there too. That run when he was brought down at the edge of the box, brilliant. He will be a massive loss if he goes. 2.5 to 4m is peanuts and would be a steal, even though he's in the last year of the contract. We should be demanding bigger money for him.
MA has been superb for us. The players are sussing out how he wants them to play and we'll only get better under him.
A million times more exciting than watching Quitchleys teams!
MA has been superb for us. The players are sussing out how he wants them to play and we'll only get better under him.
A million times more exciting than watching Quitchleys teams!
td53
Well-known member
Have you seen the breakdown of who shoots and who dribbles?
Also, factor that Bowler is often double and even sometimes triple marked and think about the impact that has on the opposing system and the space that brings for others.
Poveda may or may not be any good but Bowler terrifies other teams now.
I think you have good point that we are more balanced and I've faith in Appleton to coach a team that attacks well as a unit.
I want him to stay tho!
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
It’s not semantics at all… the cost of ‘relegation’ which of course isn’t the same as the cost of losing JB in any case, is less than £7.5M.
The cost of losing Josh would have to be measured by determining the relative probability of a whole range of potential outcomes, which might range from achieving promotion because we invested in a couple of superstars, to relegation… You’d have to also consider the relative probability of a range of outcomes associated with keeping Josh (and then losing him at the end of the season) which would include the probability of him suffering injury and only after considering all of the possible outcomes and relative probabilities of each, could you arrive at a value to us.
He’s worth £10M of anyone’s money, especially since he’s started scoring and assisting (or at least setting up goal scoring opportunities) more regularly, but we’re fucked with his contractual situation.
That probably means that £4-5M would be good business for us.
td53
Well-known member
If you get 7.5m less income (as a base, not including other lost income like level of sponsorship, ticket sales, corporate sales etc) how has relegation not cost that amount of money?
I don't understand!
Your other points are reasonable. I just don't wish to acknowledge them.
AmericanTangerine
Well-known member
Yes, of course am well aware of that, he is our biggest threat and it is not even close. He probably has the highest xD (expected dribbles, if that even is a real thing
) in the entire EFL.He would be a huge huge huge loss, but we are not a one man team and I am confident that Appleton and the squad would fair O.K. if he was to leave and that the board would reinvest the money to improve the squad in other areas.
Where we are right now, losing a player worth millions for nothing next Summer would be be catastrophic.
Mark_GT
Well-known member
I think that when people can't attend or are away their ST seats often go unused. My understanding was that the club introduced something for this but if so it's being largely unused. You can't do much about the last minute emergency or work priority but when it's something that can be planned for it would be good to see those seats being used.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
If you get 7.5m less income (as a base, not including other lost income like level of sponsorship, ticket sales, corporate sales etc) how has relegation not cost that amount of money?
I don't understand!
Your other points are reasonable. I just don't wish to acknowledge them.
Because it’s not the actual cost of relegation… In fact you could make a very decent argument that the Club might sustain lower ‘losses’ or greater ‘profit’ as a L1 Club than a Championship Club.
fcblackpool
Well-known member
I think you underestimate the power of the player and the effect that can have on bidders. I'm of the opinion that if JB want to go he will and at this stage he'll be as fair to the club as he can be, but come Wednesday he may start to exert pressure if there are firm bids.
Is it still the case that the club has to inform a player of any bid?
fcblackpool
Well-known member
Thought all STH were included in the gate?
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
I think it's as simple as the club have made a mistake with this and they are the ones who can put it right.
We are heading for 18% inflation, £400 a month to heat and light your home and Blackpool is already one of the most economically deprived areas in the country.
They need to see they have made an error and put it right. Make the first ticket you buy online or at the ticket office £30 and then after that it is £20 a game for home supporters as walk ons. If they have POTG turnstiles make it £25. If it's home to Luton in January for example make it £20.
Of course inflation will hit the club hard too, I don't think there's a cap on businesses is there so the cost of electricity, gas, oil etc., is going to be sky high, so they do have to balance the books. If they do what I suggest above then the town have to respond and turn up if we got a regular 11,000 home supporters every home game it would be worth it, more revenue in the bars, the shop and more likely to get more season tickets next season.
There's a risk to it, but it is not the right formula at the moment and they need to be honest and brave enough to change it.
We are heading for 18% inflation, £400 a month to heat and light your home and Blackpool is already one of the most economically deprived areas in the country.
They need to see they have made an error and put it right. Make the first ticket you buy online or at the ticket office £30 and then after that it is £20 a game for home supporters as walk ons. If they have POTG turnstiles make it £25. If it's home to Luton in January for example make it £20.
Of course inflation will hit the club hard too, I don't think there's a cap on businesses is there so the cost of electricity, gas, oil etc., is going to be sky high, so they do have to balance the books. If they do what I suggest above then the town have to respond and turn up if we got a regular 11,000 home supporters every home game it would be worth it, more revenue in the bars, the shop and more likely to get more season tickets next season.
There's a risk to it, but it is not the right formula at the moment and they need to be honest and brave enough to change it.
td53
Well-known member
It's a persuasive post but in some ways, I think you say both 'we are a one man team, the numbers say so' and 'we're not a one man team' - I'm probably just arguing for the sake of it now, but I have the nagging doubt in my mind that he's more key than we know. I've seen too many big players leave and us struggle thereafter. It's not always the case and of course, we may reinvest better now but...Yes, of course am well aware of that, he is our biggest threat and it is not even close. He probably has the highest xD (expected dribbles, if that even is a real thing
He would be a huge huge huge loss, but we are not a one man team and I am confident that Appleton and the squad would fair O.K. if he was to leave and that the board would reinvest the money to improve the squad in other areas.
Where we are right now, losing a player worth millions for nothing next Summer would be be catastrophic.
What if losing him costs us promotion and subsequent European promotion tho?
Then where's your reasoned and objective response then eh?
td53
Well-known member
They are. At least I'm pretty sure they are.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
Ah right, I thought that’s what you must mean.
I think non-attending STH’s are counted in the attendance figure and, of course, the Club will want to prioritise selling available tickets of their own, before they sell tickets on behalf of STH’s who can’t attend…. So the ‘Ticket Exchange’ is likely to only be available for Sell Out games (Knob End only last season).
TonyEllisTopBins
Well-known member
No I absolutely don’t. If people buy a membership for £15 they save a fiver every time. No hoops need to be jumped through. It’s incredibly simple. Maybe some of our flakey population need to show a bit more interest and commitmentYou can’t blame people for ‘not getting their head around it’.
Folk just want to make a simple snap decision and not jump through hoops to get a ticket.
I think maybe you need to just get your head round the fact that a Membership Scheme is great in principle, but a load of shit in practice.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
They are so no need to worry about them at all. They get the money irrespective, it's about bringing the prices down for match day tickets and promoting the shit out of it.
585 = never give up
Well-known member
I put this on another thread, by way of example of the cost of a game for us:
Me and wife are members (there's £30 spent). We're taking 2 daughters and grandson to the Boro game in the south stand, and that's cost well over £100 including £2 booking fee (plus fuel from Cheshire, parking, chippy lunch, drinks etc).
We asked if we could collect the tickets from the TO, as the print @ home never work on the turnstiles - "no we only do that if you buy on the week of the game, we'll have to post them to you" = another £1.50p.
Football's now an expensive day out for a family, but there's no better experience on earth than a noisey Bloomfield Road on a summers day.
Due to the financial challenges that we all face, we'll now have to pick & choose the games we attend.
Me and wife are members (there's £30 spent). We're taking 2 daughters and grandson to the Boro game in the south stand, and that's cost well over £100 including £2 booking fee (plus fuel from Cheshire, parking, chippy lunch, drinks etc).
We asked if we could collect the tickets from the TO, as the print @ home never work on the turnstiles - "no we only do that if you buy on the week of the game, we'll have to post them to you" = another £1.50p.
Football's now an expensive day out for a family, but there's no better experience on earth than a noisey Bloomfield Road on a summers day.
Due to the financial challenges that we all face, we'll now have to pick & choose the games we attend.
Mark_GT
Well-known member
May or may not be FC but that still leaves empty seats in good areas of the ground. Plus an empty seat won't contribute to the club (edited here - contribute to the club through discretionary spend in the ground) or the local economy.
td53
Well-known member
If they've budgeted accordingly.
I've read my fair share of accounts. I am well aware that it costs much more to compete in the championship but equally, we don't actually know where our wages are pitched now and indeed, if players have relegation clauses (I'd guess they do)
What we as yet have no idea of is what our losses (or otherwise) were last season so it's pure guess work.
td53
Well-known member
This is the classic thing. People who aren't actually already fans are blamed for not showing 'commitment'
That only works with your die hards. We all show commitment but we're mentalists.
Bloke who is only going cos his kid wants to go to Man City but he can't get a ticket is our target audience!!!
JJpool
Well-known member
I'm not sure if you can do that without it being one of the the deal games allowed, you aren't allowed to discriminate against away fans, hence the rules on membership for eg.
AmericanTangerine
Well-known member
Understand what you're saying but I don't think it's inconsistent to say we aren't a one man team as we aren't 100% dependent on any single player, but there does happen to be one player on our team who has long blonde hair and wears a headband that is head and shoulders above everyone else that is incredibly important, but not necessary to how we function as a team.It's a persuasive post but in some ways, I think you say both 'we are a one man team, the numbers say so' and 'we're not a one man team' - I'm probably just arguing for the sake of it now, but I have the nagging doubt in my mind that he's more key than we know. I've seen too many big players leave and us struggle thereafter. It's not always the case and of course, we may reinvest better now but...
What if losing him costs us promotion and subsequent European promotion tho?
Then where's your reasoned and objective response then eh?
After reading that it kind of sounds like IM the one arguing for the sake of arguing
Time will tell how we fair without him, but (and it's early doors so knock on wood) Appleton gives me the confident that we can and will cope.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
Then charge away supporters £25 and do the reciprocal thing we turned down the other week. Away supporters face the same financial restraints than we do so if it increases numbers of them then it still works.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
They save a fiver every time after they’ve attended three games. So they have to jump through the hoop of deciding whether they want to pay £50 for the single game that they want to attend on a whim that day, whether they want to pay £30 for it or whether they can be arsed.
If your buying tickets online it additional faff, if you’re buying tickets for a few people they’ve sold got to have memberships etc…
Sorry, but to me it’s a right ball ache…
I want to walk up to the desk, ask for a ticket and fuck off in the shortest, easiest and most convenient way humanly possible.
SirHarryThomson
Well-known member
I think the club does listen to comments as the service at half time in the North was much better with the bottle bars and fan zone bar open. Agree the walk up price needs looking at.
td53
Well-known member
The line between necessary and incredibly important is the thing...Understand what you're saying but I don't think it's inconsistent to say we aren't a one man team as we aren't 100% dependent on any single player, but there does happen to be one player on our team who has long blonde hair and wears a headband that is head and shoulders above everyone else that is incredibly important, but not necessary to how we function as a team.
After reading that it kind of sounds like IM the one arguing for the sake of arguing
Time will tell how we fair without him, but (and it's early doors so knock on wood) Appleton gives me the confident that we can and will cope.
Like, ok, last year, theoretically we *could* play without Madine but results show we needed him. (I obviously have a stat lol)
I'm with you that I think Appleton has the intelligence and ability to work it out and get a front 3 singing without Bowler - one of the most encouraging things is that we've shared chances about more last 3 games.
It's more that a) that takes time and b) it's a crying shame as this set up, this manager, this moment is set for Bowler to play the football of his life and make what he did last year look like a mere warm up.
I think that latter point is what gets me.
He'll go and be coming on in the 85th minute against Southampton at best. What a waste. For him, for us, for football.
fcblackpool
Well-known member
As Mark says there is the potential to double sell the seat and the spend that follows.
A good idea imo would be to offer the seat FOC with the purchase of a future mdt, limited to say 3 a season pp.
td53
Well-known member
Aye, good idea.
fcblackpool
Well-known member
Pointless having good ideas round here- the Club doesn't listen to anyone on these such matters.
Bloodtangerine
Well-known member
Phil, 85 in no time. Nice efficient batting 
. Good to keep your arm in now and then 
. Good to keep your arm in now and then
AmericanTangerine
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more, a move where he isn't playing 90' week in and out would be disastrous for his career and rob football of seeing one of (if not the greatest) dribblers in England.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
td53
Well-known member
It has crossed my mind...That last sentence choked me up a bit
Maybe you could write a begging letter to Josh
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
Do it
TonyEllisTopBins
Well-known member
Don’t go then. I genuinely can’t be bothered with flakey people who don’t have the nous or initiative to do something simple like buy a ticket online. Go do something else on Saturdays fella.
td53
Well-known member
Philbfctrois
Well-known member
To be honest I can't be bothered with the all right jack attitudes that you seem to be banging the drum for
The facts are that very few people buy match day tickets, thats fact so something has to be done
td53
Well-known member
Have you considered the fan liaison role up for grabs ATM?
Insider
Well-known member
One thing we do know is that the Board do read the messageboard. I'm sure they do take notice and even implement some ideas but only the minor things. The problem with what this board see as big ticket items the solutions offered will be based on very limited information.
It's the easiest thing in the world to say in one breath reduce ticket prices and in the next breath say pay Josh £25k pw. There's not just the reduction in the income available to pay that wage but there's also the "financial fair play" angle.
On Josh's potential fee clearly offers that have been mooted in the region of £2.5m are non-starters. The Club could easily spend that on replacements who aren't anything like as good, so there be no more money in the bank and no improvement on the pitch.
We'd need enough money from his fee to bring in a minimum of 2 (3?) good experienced players that overall would improve a squad that no longer included Josh. Not easy.
No idea what the answer is. The only thing I do know is Josh wanted to leave last January and was unhappy that it wasn't allowed to happen. I don't have a clue what HE wants now but that could (and probably should) be a determining factor.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
Him and Tangerine Dream can do it!!Have you considered the fan liaison role up for grabs ATM?
Philbfctrois
Well-known member
Probably the same personHim and Tangerine Dream can do it!!
JJpool
Well-known member
This cake and eat it is wrong....
You can have it somewhat, you just need to find the price point and engage the local area.
So far we've had away crowds well under the normal away end capacity, some will be well over it.
Let's say we average 2.5k away fans, which seems a reasonable estimate.
OK so 2.5k x 29 (adult prices for ease of comparison) x 23 games = 1,667,500
So far we have 8.5k ST holders and are maybe getting 1k match ticket sales only.
Some will be paying full whack and some with memberships, the breakdown unknown but let's say people pay an average of 27 quid.
1k x 27 x 23 games = 621,000 plus 1k have membership but don't all go to every game so 1000 x 15 = 15,000.
Add all that up and we get = 2,303,500
Obviously in reality it's less than that given the various price categories but for this comparison it's ok.
So if we were to charge 23 quid....
Away fan average rises to 2.7k, an extra 200 on average. 2.7k x 22 x 23 games = 1,366,200
If we get an extra 600 people coming at that lower price, which seems eminently achievable as its a lot lower, so 1600.
1600 x 23 x 23 games = 846,400
Add that up and we get = 2,212,600
Add in the increased spend on the day in the bar and shop and you're getting very close, only 600 or so home fans to come, I think if marketed as one of the cheapest prices in the championship, drop some leaflets etc etc we can easily do that if not surpass it.
Also thats charging away fans a quid less, at Burnley it was 30 despite the view being blocked partially by a support, it must only have been less directly behing it, so not sure we even need to charge less, charge 23 the same as home fans and we're up.
Now I know you don't like these hypothetical estimates but it shows how you can make similar amounts.
So when there's not a lot in it I will always prioritise more fans in the ground and building for the future.
Even if less than estimated came and there was a small loss and we had to have 1 lesser player on the books... I'd rather do it.
Don't you think we could attract those sort of numbers at those prices?
Critchknows
Well-known member
I don't think there's anything wrong with the membership scheme really and I don't think it's difficult either. Maybe it could be a more nominal fee to take out that initial big splurge at the same time as tickets but on the other hand if u just want one game every now and then you wouldn't look to buy a membership.
I don't think reducing the prices to target people who only come if the suns shining and we are playing well and it's against a decent team and they're not busy and it's not cold is the way to go.
I don't think reducing the prices to target people who only come if the suns shining and we are playing well and it's against a decent team and they're not busy and it's not cold is the way to go.