Brexit - FAIL!

BFC_BFC_BFC

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Yes it’s been done to death and, of course, this same question has been asked a thousand times and more, but I’m interested to hear a bit of genuine honesty, rather than the usual polarised nonsense…. There’s no prizes for having been ‘right all along’ and you’re not less of a man / woman if you supported Brexit and now acknowledge that it’s been a massive flop…. The most important thing is that we get our Country back on track and it feels to me like a reversal of Brexit aka Breentry is where it’s at.

I’ll just say that it’s a debate I’ve largely steered clear of to be honest. I had no strong feelings either way (although I voted remain) and I was supportive that the Government should implement the will of the people…. The problem I have now is…

1. It’s been an absolute fuck up and is damaging (and will continue ti damage) our country and our people.

2. The will of the people right now would almost certainly be to return to the EU (and I suspect it would be quite overwhelming - 60% +)

3. Even goons like Farage have been forced ti admit that his own plan has completely failed.

So let’s have your honest thoughts…. And let’s get back into the EU sharpish and start putting the Great back into Great Britain…

I’ve attached a poll for interest sale..
 
It's been exactly what was predicted by what the Brexiteers dismissed as "project fear". Inflation, reduced growth, labour shortages, issues with additional red tape for import/export, increased food prices, the list goes on.

Brexit can be a success, by making us more agile, but it was never going to be a success under the calibre of politician who conned the public.

It was a mistake, an unequivocal one. However, I'd like to see us try and make it a success with a different, more pragmatic generation of politician. We've had the pain now anyway so we may aswell work with it now to try and capture the upsides, which are still there.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes it’s been done to death and, of course, this same question has been asked a thousand times and more, but I’m interested to hear a bit of genuine honesty, rather than the usual polarised nonsense…. There’s no prizes for having been ‘right all along’ and you’re not less of a man / woman if you supported Brexit and now acknowledge that it’s been a massive flop…. The most important thing is that we get our Country back on track and it feels to me like a reversal of Brexit aka Breentry is where it’s at.

I’ll just say that it’s a debate I’ve largely steered clear of to be honest. I had no strong feelings either way (although I voted remain) and I was supportive that the Government should implement the will of the people…. The problem I have now is…

1. It’s been an absolute fuck up and is damaging (and will continue ti damage) our country and our people.

2. The will of the people right now would almost certainly be to return to the EU (and I suspect it would be quite overwhelming - 60% +)

3. Even goons like Farage have been forced ti admit that his own plan has completely failed.

So let’s have your honest thoughts…. And let’s get back into the EU sharpish and start putting the Great back into Great Britain…

I’ve attached a poll for interest sale..
Click to expand...
We've just signed the trade deal with the CPTPP so can't rejoin.

Farage wasn't involved in any way in brexit after the vote, the tories have made the mess of it, so not really his plan if he wasn't involved in any way in implementing it.

Also wrong forum.
 
Tango1953 said:
It's been exactly what was predicted by what the Brexiteers dismissed as "project fear". Inflation, reduced growth, labour shortages, issues with additional red tape for import/export, increased food prices, the list goes on.

Brexit can be a success, by making us more agile, but it was never going to be a success under the calibre of politician who conned the public.

It was a mistake, an unequivocal one. However, I'd like to see us try and make it a success with a different, more pragmatic generation of politician. We've had the pain now anyway so we may aswell work with it now to try and capture the upsides, which are still there.
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Some impact no doubt, but the wider issues have been due to other factors like lockdowns, the massive borrowing, Ukraine.
 
JJpool said:
We've just signed the trade deal with the CPTPP so can't rejoin.

Farage wasn't involved in any way in brexit after the vote, the tories have made the mess of it, so not really his plan if he wasn't involved in any way in implementing it.

Also wrong forum.
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Absolutely incorrect.
 
JJpool said:
We've just signed the trade deal with the CPTPP so can't rejoin.

Farage wasn't involved in any way in brexit after the vote, the tories have made the mess of it, so not really his plan if he wasn't involved in any way in implementing it.

Also wrong forum.
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Oops… unintentional mistake… I’m sure @avftt_admin or @avftt_admin2 will sort 👍

P.S. We all know the scripted response…

I’m interested in a bit of honesty
 
x3 you have missed out the option

*They won’t bother having us back.

It’s a massive f*ck up but too late now.

Time for a new Government asap to at least get the UK back on some sort of track after these Tory clowns 🤡

Not good trying to blame Covid and the Ukraine war. Every country had/has to deal with those 🙄
 
2. The will of the people right now would almost certainly be to return to the EU (and I suspect it would be quite overwhelming - 60% +)
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Absolute nonsense.
Has Brexit been everything it could have been? No, why? Because it has been stymied by remainers in Westminster at every opportunity.
Has it and will it deliver a positive outcome for the UK? Well you might want to look at the balance of trade figures for the UK with the EU/CM before, during and after we joined/left. You'll see just how bad being a member was for us from that alone and now we are starting to see increased balance in the Uk's favour again as reported earlier this week in the msm.
The Eurozone economies are in turmoil right now with multiple economies in recessions and even the largest ones in negative growth - Germany is expected to be in technical recession in the next quarter. The UK on the other hand continues to outperform IMF predictions of gloom and this all despite Covid (where Brexit helped with vaccine rollout), the war in Ukraine and with global food prices all driving inflation.

Every remainer who raises Brexit with me always talks about money. Money, money, money. For me and most others I talk to to, Brexit was about Britain being a self-governing sovereign nation, rather than NW sector C of the European federation.

There's a lot of work for the government still to do to deliver on all of the promises made, but step by step they're chipping away - last week's small boats immigration legislation is another example of that. More to do...
 
The decision should be reversed on the basis that the politicians campaigning for it told blatant lies about the benefits of leaving.

Those lies undoubtedly influenced the vote.

Such an important decision should have been campaigned upon on the basis of facts not fiction.

The public was misled.
 
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Brexit has failed because the world simply doesn't work the way so many Brexiteers think it does and they're particularly stupid when it comes to trade. Losing full access to the single market was the worst act of economic vandalism in history. It isn't too late to get it right, we should immediately rejoin EFTA/EEA and regain Freedom of Movement to fix things. Rejoining the EU as full members would involve adopting the Euro and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

Whatever happened to compromise? To the rejoiners you'll never sell full EU membership so have an attainable goal. To the diehard Brexiteers you were lied to to those sunlit uplands never existed. I can't wait for the delusional to start slating me for being rational, oh and apologies if I sound condescending.
 
JJpool said:
Some impact no doubt, but the wider issues have been due to other factors like lockdowns, the massive borrowing, Ukraine.
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They have certainly been useful factors to muddy the waters and disguise some of the impact Brexit has had. It starts to unravel when you compare it to other G7 countries and other members of the EU.

However, the last 8 years of Conservative rule have been far more damaging to the UK than all of the above factors.
 
I wasn't particularly averse to Brexit in the sense that it's very clear to see that the free movement stuff was used to bring down/hold down wages for blue collar work in the post thatcher era.

I also don't really like the whole 'but our doctors and nurses (and various clever people etc) come from the EU!' argument as I think we've used that as a sticking plaster for failing to invest in our own education, training and development.

What I honestly don't see is any attempt to do anything to develop the country in a sustainable and self sufficient manner. We seem stuck in some kind of weird loop where we argue about trade deals constantly and to have done absolutely nothing at all to develop a more local economy.

I'm left wondering 'why?' as I've not really noticed any particular material benefits. I haven't noticed any particular new freedoms or opportunity for myself and no one I know has seemed to notice them either.

I do also think the whole argument has become a distraction though. If you go back to 2016, the roots of the issues we face today are very much present in that society. Inequality is growing, we're failing to invest in structural problems, there is a lack of manufacturing base etc etc.. Just as leaving the EU doesn't seem to have fixed those issues, I'm not really sure rejoining it does either.

EU states might not have suffered some of our issues quite as badly but a glance at say, Italy shows us that the populism and cronyism that infects our politics of late is hardly a symptom of a post EU world alone.

I'd look at it this way. We're in a storm at the moment and we might have been a bit daft to unleash ourselves from the other boats. We could used that freedom to do something (run for a port or whatever fits the crap analogy) but we seem to have just floated around not really sure of what to do or what direction to go in. There's certainly merit in the idea we might have been better staying lashed to the other boats...

But...If you look at who governed us in 2016 for example, look at the defining economic principles (Osbornomics) and look at the choices facing us in 2024 then broadly speaking, we've got two (three with lib Dems) preaching almost exactly the same economic orthodoxy as then.

I think the worst mistake Corbyn made was being talked into a remainer appeasing position which meant the post Brexit debate was dominated by the likes of Johnson and Mogg who never had any real commitment or plan anyway - it was a convenient platform for them. Labour etc simply didn't compete over the question of 'how does Brexit work?' because to make it work, you've got to think radically and we just can't do that.

The argument could have been between the relatively empty 'we'll do some different trade deals cos we're great Britain!!!' and 'we'll have some kind of national renewal of skills, investment and industry to ensure future generations live in well thought out and structured country with infrastructure and economy based around sustainability and quality of life' but unfortunately the latter argument was never made because 'the middle classes are worried and cross and want another vote' was deemed to be the better political argument.

It was kind of 'voices for change' vs 'shrill middle class voices for staying the same' - that's a very reductive viewpoint, but ultimately I think has some validity. The question of 'what is the change we want (or need)' was never really effectively debated.

Ultimately, all this waffle sums up that I think Brexit was a vote to change stuff and nothing has really changed. There's obviously regulations and things that people on both sides will cite and in and of themselves, I appreciate they're important if they effect you but in a broad sense, we've got the same basic structures and problems as we did before and parties offering the same kind of fixes and solutions.
 
bill40 said:
Brexit has failed because the world simply doesn't work the way so many Brexiteers think it does and they're particularly stupid when it comes to trade. Losing full access to the single market was the worst act of economic vandalism in history. It isn't too late to get it right, we should immediately rejoin EFTA/EEA and regain Freedom of Movement to fix things. Rejoining the EU as full members would involve adopting the Euro and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

Whatever happened to compromise? To the rejoiners you'll never sell full EU membership so have an attainable goal. To the diehard Brexiteers you were lied to to those sunlit uplands never existed. I can't wait for the delusional to start slating me for being rational, oh and apologies if I sound condescending.
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I think that's a good post. Politics has become so polarised in the way it's debated. People are still raging about a vote 7 years ago. The EU isn't sunlit uplands and Brexit hasn't been a panacea either but we're literally unable to talk about anything political now without it descending into a slanging match of name calling and entrenched positions which are then material for a wider culture war in which everyone is a fascist or a secret undercover Marxist and there's no middle ground aside from the market orthodoxy.

It's all a bit depressing. I'd say we should be worrying about the shape and form of democracy much more than we do. We tend to focus on individuals and slanging matches rather than wonder why everyone is so furious and the idea of governing the country effectively on longer term lines seems a stupid naive fantasy.
 
td53 said:
I wasn't particularly averse to Brexit in the sense that it's very clear to see that the free movement stuff was used to bring down/hold down wages for blue collar work in the post thatcher era.

I also don't really like the whole 'but our doctors and nurses (and various clever people etc) come from the EU!' argument as I think we've used that as a sticking plaster for failing to invest in our own education, training and development.

What I honestly don't see is any attempt to do anything to develop the country in a sustainable and self sufficient manner. We seem stuck in some kind of weird loop where we argue about trade deals constantly and to have done absolutely nothing at all to develop a more local economy.

I'm left wondering 'why?' as I've not really noticed any particular material benefits. I haven't noticed any particular new freedoms or opportunity for myself and no one I know has seemed to notice them either.

I do also think the whole argument has become a distraction though. If you go back to 2016, the roots of the issues we face today are very much present in that society. Inequality is growing, we're failing to invest in structural problems, there is a lack of manufacturing base etc etc.. Just as leaving the EU doesn't seem to have fixed those issues, I'm not really sure rejoining it does either.

EU states might not have suffered some of our issues quite as badly but a glance at say, Italy shows us that the populism and cronyism that infects our politics of late is hardly a symptom of a post EU world alone.

I'd look at it this way. We're in a storm at the moment and we might have been a bit daft to unleash ourselves from the other boats. We could used that freedom to do something (run for a port or whatever fits the crap analogy) but we seem to have just floated around not really sure of what to do or what direction to go in. There's certainly merit in the idea we might have been better staying lashed to the other boats...

But...If you look at who governed us in 2016 for example, look at the defining economic principles (Osbornomics) and look at the choices facing us in 2024 then broadly speaking, we've got two (three with lib Dems) preaching almost exactly the same economic orthodoxy as then.

I think the worst mistake Corbyn made was being talked into a remainer appeasing position which meant the post Brexit debate was dominated by the likes of Johnson and Mogg who never had any real commitment or plan anyway - it was a convenient platform for them. Labour etc simply didn't compete over the question of 'how does Brexit work?' because to make it work, you've got to think radically and we just can't do that.

The argument could have been between the relatively empty 'we'll do some different trade deals cos we're great Britain!!!' and 'we'll have some kind of national renewal of skills, investment and industry to ensure future generations live in well thought out and structured country with infrastructure and economy based around sustainability and quality of life' but unfortunately the latter argument was never made because 'the middle classes are worried and cross and want another vote' was deemed to be the better political argument.

It was kind of 'voices for change' vs 'shrill middle class voices for staying the same' - that's a very reductive viewpoint, but ultimately I think has some validity. The question of 'what is the change we want (or need)' was never really effectively debated.

Ultimately, all this waffle sums up that I think Brexit was a vote to change stuff and nothing has really changed. There's obviously regulations and things that people on both sides will cite and in and of themselves, I appreciate they're important if they effect you but in a broad sense, we've got the same basic structures and problems as we did before and parties offering the same kind of fixes and solutions.
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Basically, the majority in charge never believed in it, never wanted it or expected to lose. We haven't made the most of it because of the above and also because those who lost the vote never accepted it and fought it at every turn.

Brexit gives us the opportunities but you've got to believe in it and be willing to take them.

It might not have been as easy as some thought or made out but also it's too early to fully judge as also there's been huge unprecedented crisis like covid, also Ukraine that mean we can't really truly measure brexit alone.

It dows kind of highlight the joke of democracy really, you can vote any way you like, but if you go against the establishment they'll never accept it. Also you can vote for whoever you like but in reality it's 2 parties that get in because of a broken voting system.
 
Doesn’t matter what people think now it wasn’t a best of 3 vote the country voted to leave and leave we did time to forget and get on with life. 🇬🇧
Some of the biggest issues with this country today are absolutely nothing at all to do with Brexit yet people seem to blame Brexit on everything these days.
We really do have some short sighted people in this country even a few on this board.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes it’s been done to death and, of course, this same question has been asked a thousand times and more, but I’m interested to hear a bit of genuine honesty, rather than the usual polarised nonsense…. There’s no prizes for having been ‘right all along’ and you’re not less of a man / woman if you supported Brexit and now acknowledge that it’s been a massive flop…. The most important thing is that we get our Country back on track and it feels to me like a reversal of Brexit aka Breentry is where it’s at.

I’ll just say that it’s a debate I’ve largely steered clear of to be honest. I had no strong feelings either way (although I voted remain) and I was supportive that the Government should implement the will of the people…. The problem I have now is…

1. It’s been an absolute fuck up and is damaging (and will continue ti damage) our country and our people.

2. The will of the people right now would almost certainly be to return to the EU (and I suspect it would be quite overwhelming - 60% +)

3. Even goons like Farage have been forced ti admit that his own plan has completely failed.

So let’s have your honest thoughts…. And let’s get back into the EU sharpish and start putting the Great back into Great Britain…

I’ve attached a poll for interest sale..
Click to expand...
We should rejoin but - because the Tories have so badly fucked up the exit, as most of us knew they would - because no brexit campaigner would define what brexit meant, and Labour and the Lib dems have simply not held their feet to the fire, the EU and several of the nations individually might object. Also rejoining would necesitate joining the Euro and I have serious concerns about the viability of the Euro, so joining the EEA is probably the only immediate way forward, which of course gives little to no influence over EU policy making the rule takers not rule makers meme so loved by brexiters come true.
 
JJpool said:
Basically, the majority in charge never believed in it, never wanted it or expected to lose. We haven't made the most of it because of the above and also because those who lost the vote never accepted it and fought it at every turn.

Brexit gives us the opportunities but you've got to believe in it and be willing to take them.

It might not have been as easy as some thought or made out but also it's too early to fully judge as also there's been huge unprecedented crisis like covid, also Ukraine that mean we can't really truly measure brexit alone.

It dows kind of highlight the joke of democracy really, you can vote any way you like, but if you go against the establishment they'll never accept it. Also you can vote for whoever you like but in reality it's 2 parties that get in because of a broken voting system.
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It doesn't work because it never could work.
Please stop blaming other people and take responsibility for the clusterfuck that Brexit is, this is what you voted for. The consequences were predicted at the time of the referendum but they were dismissed at the time as 'project fear'. You got what you wanted but it hasn't really turned out as promised because what you were promised is actually impossible to achieve - as was pointed out at the time. There was never a clear plan and consequently there is no strategy for a successful Brexit.

On the future, I feel that the pragmatic way forward is to rejoin the EFTA and restart free-trade with our neighbors which would restart freedom of movement. We can do that and still respect the outcome of the referendum and keep our own currency. It would have a beneficial effect on growth (solves the shortage of labour problem) and will attract inward investment without the need for bribes from the government. I feel that this compromise is the sensible half way house that Brexit should have been (as the vote was very close), we could become more independent from the EU as time progressed if we had wanted. I suspect that it will take about 10 years for the political class to come to this conclusion, I hope that the interim years are not too damaging.
 
We won’t rejoin, whichever party is in power, that ship has sailed, there maybe some negotiations around trade, but I doubt we’d agree to what would undoubtedly be tough terms from the eu.

Would we the common people be better off now if we’d stayed in the eu? Frankly I doubt it, I would guess that it would feel pretty much the same to us.
 
If I was Starmer I would be thinking about an in / out referendum for the single market in my second term of government. It would give the economy a boost, the pound would strengthen and therefore the cost of oil would come down.
I am not sure if we could negotiate a way back into the EU as a whole whilst keeping the pound, personally I would not want to see us lose our currency as the price to rejoin. Maybe it would be possible in the future.
 
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DiggersBFC said:
Absolute nonsense.
Has Brexit been everything it could have been? No, why? Because it has been stymied by remainers in Westminster at every opportunity.
Has it and will it deliver a positive outcome for the UK? Well you might want to look at the balance of trade figures for the UK with the EU/CM before, during and after we joined/left. You'll see just how bad being a member was for us from that alone and now we are starting to see increased balance in the Uk's favour again as reported earlier this week in the msm.
The Eurozone economies are in turmoil right now with multiple economies in recessions and even the largest ones in negative growth - Germany is expected to be in technical recession in the next quarter. The UK on the other hand continues to outperform IMF predictions of gloom and this all despite Covid (where Brexit helped with vaccine rollout), the war in Ukraine and with global food prices all driving inflation.

Every remainer who raises Brexit with me always talks about money. Money, money, money. For me and most others I talk to to, Brexit was about Britain being a self-governing sovereign nation, rather than NW sector C of the European federation.

There's a lot of work for the government still to do to deliver on all of the promises made, but step by step they're chipping away - last week's small boats immigration legislation is another example of that. More to do...
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"For me and most others I talk to to, Brexit was about Britain being a self-governing sovereign nation, rather than NW sector C of the European federation."

Throughout our time as a member of the Common Market/EEC/EU we were a self-governing, sovereign nation. Every 'law' implemented by the EU could only take effect in the UK if we adopted it in into British law. This self-governing, sovereign nation stuff is simply the sound of insular people being afraid to look outwards into a world in which we need to play our full part. In any case, what do you think you mean by 'Sovereign'? The King in Parliament is the sovereignty at the core of our Constitution. Yet when Johnson was PM he usurped the Monarch's authority to himself on at least one occasion and tried but failed on others. Is that what you want...a dictatorship by a Tory Government over Parliament? I suggest to you that many people who voted Leave on the basis of restoring our sovereignty, simply did not fully comprehend what they were seeking. That Sovereignty has never gone away.
 
td53 said:
I think that's a good post. Politics has become so polarised in the way it's debated. People are still raging about a vote 7 years ago. The EU isn't sunlit uplands and Brexit hasn't been a panacea either but we're literally unable to talk about anything political now without it descending into a slanging match of name calling and entrenched positions which are then material for a wider culture war in which everyone is a fascist or a secret undercover Marxist and there's no middle ground aside from the market orthodoxy.

It's all a bit depressing. I'd say we should be worrying about the shape and form of democracy much more than we do. We tend to focus on individuals and slanging matches rather than wonder why everyone is so furious and the idea of governing the country effectively on longer term lines seems a stupid naive fantasy.
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You have yet to ask yourself the fundamental question....what would Gaz have done?
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes it’s been done to death and, of course, this same question has been asked a thousand times and more, but I’m interested to hear a bit of genuine honesty, rather than the usual polarised nonsense…. There’s no prizes for having been ‘right all along’ and you’re not less of a man / woman if you supported Brexit and now acknowledge that it’s been a massive flop…. The most important thing is that we get our Country back on track and it feels to me like a reversal of Brexit aka Breentry is where it’s at.

I’ll just say that it’s a debate I’ve largely steered clear of to be honest. I had no strong feelings either way (although I voted remain) and I was supportive that the Government should implement the will of the people…. The problem I have now is…

1. It’s been an absolute fuck up and is damaging (and will continue ti damage) our country and our people.

2. The will of the people right now would almost certainly be to return to the EU (and I suspect it would be quite overwhelming - 60% +)

3. Even goons like Farage have been forced ti admit that his own plan has completely failed.

So let’s have your honest thoughts…. And let’s get back into the EU sharpish and start putting the Great back into Great Britain…

I’ve attached a poll for interest sale..
Click to expand...
You forgot to attach the poll.
 
I am not sure that the French and the Germans would really want us back in the EU given the friction we have caused to their EU dream of “ever-increasing unity”. And the EU politburo, the unelected EU Commission bureaucrats, definitely would not appreciate our “troublemaking”, even if we would be a net positive financial contributor. They can now proceed with their grand scheme unencumbered by having to include allowances for us.

As many have said, the EU Commission would insist on the UK adopting the Euro as a pre-condition to opening negotiations on rejoining. Once a country loses control of its currency and Central Bank it loses its economic independence and democracy is eroded. You cannot set your own interest rates or sell your own bonds. That’s the aim of “ever-increasing unity”. That was the best bit of politics that Gordon Brown ever did.

Our best option now is to adopt the Norway option to join EFTA and remove the barriers to free trade and free movement. They have not done so badly with the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world built up over the last 50 years. Granted, they have a small population outweighed by vast oil and gas revenues.

We would then have to trust the EU not to make rules that are aimed at disadvantaging the UK. The EU wouldn’t bother doing that to Norway but the UK ? I am not so sure... they certainly want a big chunk of our financial industry.

Brexit in itself is a failure, but it’s worse than that Jim... it has severely complicated any future decisions to try and redress the situation sensibly. And the UK has paid more in the “leaving fee” than it would have in membership dues for decades to come. You just don’t know what you had until it’s gone.
 
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bill40 said:
Brexit has failed because the world simply doesn't work the way so many Brexiteers think it does and they're particularly stupid when it comes to trade. Losing full access to the single market was the worst act of economic vandalism in history. It isn't too late to get it right, we should immediately rejoin EFTA/EEA and regain Freedom of Movement to fix things. Rejoining the EU as full members would involve adopting the Euro and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

Whatever happened to compromise? To the rejoiners you'll never sell full EU membership so have an attainable goal. To the diehard Brexiteers you were lied to to those sunlit uplands never existed. I can't wait for the delusional to start slating me for being rational, oh and apologies if I sound condescending.
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This is pretty much where I am.

I can’t see us rejoining on terms far, far worse than what we enjoyed previously (and even that assumes the EU would welcome us back).

A Norway style agreement is a middle ground but as already pointed out that’d involve accepting freedom of movement which was one reason so many people voted to exit in the first place. Plus a large contribution to the EU budget in return for access to the single market, which was another reason behind the Leave vote.

So I’m not sure even a trade agreement with the EU is a feasible option for a long, long time yet.

And, as also pointed out, there is still no vision of how the country can earn its way “freed from the shackles of Europe”. A few on the right did have a vision of a low tax, nominal employee rights, exploitative economy (Singapore on the Thames) but that will only appeal to a small minority and as Liz Truss proved, it might not be achievable any way.

The Labour Party investing to create a green Industrial Revolution provides a glimmer of hope but the obvious question is whether the country can afford the necessary investment. And how long it would take.

So I predict a long slow decline for a majority of our population, like a puncture if you like. More of the Brexit Betrayal narrative that we’ve had on here already to explain why Brexit isn’t working. More Culture Wars bollux and xenophobia to distract attention from what’s really happening.

Thoroughly depressing really.
 
Some of the current issues like inflation are more to do with Russia / Ukraine. Then there’s the after effects of the Covid mishandling over an extended period.

On Brexit: it could have worked very well.
Unfortunately the Gov are more interested in petty squabbles and their own self interests. It’s been a huge open goal missed opportunity and I don’t expect Labour would be any different in terms of lack of vision or ability to get anything meaningful done. I also believe half the current Gov are being deliberately awkward / blocking moves because they never wanted to leave in the first place.
As things stand, and with no sign of improvement down the line, we’ve been left with all of the downsides and none of the benefits.
So on that basis, we might as well be back in the EU.
 
Don’t worry, when Trump is elected he will direct the White House to enter into a large and lucrative trade deal with us from his prison cell.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
This is pretty much where I am.

I can’t see us rejoining on terms far, far worse than what we enjoyed previously (and even that assumes the EU would welcome us back).

A Norway style agreement is a middle ground but as already pointed out that’d involve accepting freedom of movement which was one reason so many people voted to exit in the first place. Plus a large contribution to the EU budget in return for access to the single market, which was another reason behind the Leave vote.

So I’m not sure even a trade agreement with the EU is a feasible option for a long, long time yet.

And, as also pointed out, there is still no vision of how the country can earn its way “freed from the shackles of Europe”. A few on the right did have a vision of a low tax, nominal employee rights, exploitative economy (Singapore on the Thames) but that will only appeal to a small minority and as Liz Truss proved, it might not be achievable any way.

The Labour Party investing to create a green Industrial Revolution provides a glimmer of hope but the obvious question is whether the country can afford the necessary investment. And how long it would take.

So I predict a long slow decline for a majority of our population, like a puncture if you like. More of the Brexit Betrayal narrative that we’ve had on here already to explain why Brexit isn’t working. More Culture Wars bollux and xenophobia to distract attention from what’s really happening.

Thoroughly depressing really.
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Good post Mex but on FoM seriously? People were lied to about that as well they said it would reduce immigration tell me how that's going? FoM was a superb control on immigration as it was policed by employers. Brexit hasn't gone to plan because there never was a plan.
 
tangerine_neil said:
Some of the current issues like inflation are more to do with Russia / Ukraine. Then there’s the after effects of the Covid mishandling over an extended period.

On Brexit: it could have worked very well.
Unfortunately the Gov are more interested in petty squabbles and their own self interests. It’s been a huge open goal missed opportunity and I don’t expect Labour would be any different in terms of lack of vision or ability to get anything meaningful done. I also believe half the current Gov are being deliberately awkward / blocking moves because they never wanted to leave in the first place.
As things stand, and with no sign of improvement down the line, we’ve been left with all of the downsides and none of the benefits.
So on that basis, we might as well be back in the EU.
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What should we have done that we haven't done?
How did we miss an open goal?
What could future governments do to take advantage of Brexit?
 
td53 said:
I wasn't particularly averse to Brexit in the sense that it's very clear to see that the free movement stuff was used to bring down/hold down wages for blue collar work in the post thatcher era.

I also don't really like the whole 'but our doctors and nurses (and various clever people etc) come from the EU!' argument as I think we've used that as a sticking plaster for failing to invest in our own education, training and development.

What I honestly don't see is any attempt to do anything to develop the country in a sustainable and self sufficient manner. We seem stuck in some kind of weird loop where we argue about trade deals constantly and to have done absolutely nothing at all to develop a more local economy.
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This is really well put and reasoned.

Enjoyed reading your other contributions in here too. Agreed and disagreed with different parts to different degrees but always seemed to be at least considered, and not the regurgitation of the divisive buzz words each extreme ikes to throw about.
 
bill40 said:
Good post Mex but on FoM seriously? People were lied to about that as well they said it would reduce immigration tell me how that's going? FoM was a superb control on immigration as it was policed by employers. Brexit hasn't gone to plan because there never was a plan.
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There were four fundamental aspects to the EU’s freedom of movement... Freedom of Movement for Trade, Services, Capital and People. The lying b’stards like Bozo and Farage only focused on the last one to frighten voters. The loss of the first three have been just as damaging.

Edit: thee were four freedoms not three. But trade/services are similarish.
 
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I voted remain. I know many who voted to leave, and have always respected that the referendum said Brexit. Despite their total incompetence and inability to negotiate, I always hoped that it was brinksmanship, and the promises by the Brexiteers of the easiest deal in history, would come to fruition.

The facts have become obvious that it could never be achieved, we could never have trade access without common standards, and the GFA and Brexit were incompatible. Oh, and BMW and Mercedes have little power in the EU. The more I read about the money behind Brexit campaigning, the more I am convinced that Russia put huge sums behind people like Farage and Tufts Street, Russia wanting destabilisation and Tufton Street wanting deregulation.

I too would like to see a middle ground, with freedom of access to and from the EU for people and goods, but for the reasons detailed above, it is unlikely. Mex's post is pretty stark, but probably where I too am at present. The only positive is that the EU would love to see our contribution back, and this could lead to more flexibility on their behalf.
 
td53 said:
I wasn't particularly averse to Brexit in the sense that it's very clear to see that the free movement stuff was used to bring down/hold down wages for blue collar work in the post thatcher era.

I also don't really like the whole 'but our doctors and nurses (and various clever people etc) come from the EU!' argument as I think we've used that as a sticking plaster for failing to invest in our own education, training and development.

What I honestly don't see is any attempt to do anything to develop the country in a sustainable and self sufficient manner. We seem stuck in some kind of weird loop where we argue about trade deals constantly and to have done absolutely nothing at all to develop a more local economy.

I'm left wondering 'why?' as I've not really noticed any particular material benefits. I haven't noticed any particular new freedoms or opportunity for myself and no one I know has seemed to notice them either.

I do also think the whole argument has become a distraction though. If you go back to 2016, the roots of the issues we face today are very much present in that society. Inequality is growing, we're failing to invest in structural problems, there is a lack of manufacturing base etc etc.. Just as leaving the EU doesn't seem to have fixed those issues, I'm not really sure rejoining it does either.

EU states might not have suffered some of our issues quite as badly but a glance at say, Italy shows us that the populism and cronyism that infects our politics of late is hardly a symptom of a post EU world alone.

I'd look at it this way. We're in a storm at the moment and we might have been a bit daft to unleash ourselves from the other boats. We could used that freedom to do something (run for a port or whatever fits the crap analogy) but we seem to have just floated around not really sure of what to do or what direction to go in. There's certainly merit in the idea we might have been better staying lashed to the other boats...

But...If you look at who governed us in 2016 for example, look at the defining economic principles (Osbornomics) and look at the choices facing us in 2024 then broadly speaking, we've got two (three with lib Dems) preaching almost exactly the same economic orthodoxy as then.

I think the worst mistake Corbyn made was being talked into a remainer appeasing position which meant the post Brexit debate was dominated by the likes of Johnson and Mogg who never had any real commitment or plan anyway - it was a convenient platform for them. Labour etc simply didn't compete over the question of 'how does Brexit work?' because to make it work, you've got to think radically and we just can't do that.

The argument could have been between the relatively empty 'we'll do some different trade deals cos we're great Britain!!!' and 'we'll have some kind of national renewal of skills, investment and industry to ensure future generations live in well thought out and structured country with infrastructure and economy based around sustainability and quality of life' but unfortunately the latter argument was never made because 'the middle classes are worried and cross and want another vote' was deemed to be the better political argument.

It was kind of 'voices for change' vs 'shrill middle class voices for staying the same' - that's a very reductive viewpoint, but ultimately I think has some validity. The question of 'what is the change we want (or need)' was never really effectively debated.

Ultimately, all this waffle sums up that I think Brexit was a vote to change stuff and nothing has really changed. There's obviously regulations and things that people on both sides will cite and in and of themselves, I appreciate they're important if they effect you but in a broad sense, we've got the same basic structures and problems as we did before and parties offering the same kind of fixes and solutions.
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As I see it… it’s far more simple…

If you realise you’ve fucked up by unstrapping yourself from the other boats, you just strap yourself back to them.

The idea that “We’ve made a massive balls up, but now we’re stuck with it” is just daft.

A return to the EU fold is ultimately inevitable… So better to limit the damage by doing it sooner rather than later.
 
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