Covid Europe

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seasideone

Well-known member
It may well be fact, but it is not proof of your assumptions.

So have you got anything else to add that supports your assumptions, beyond repeating the same thing over and over or can we conclude that your argument is as flimsy as it appears to be! ?
Just because you want to try and knock the facts aside, I will stick with them....

127000 v 30, which government did better?
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Japan have had approx 9200 deaths compared to 30, so not sure that’s a broadly similar outcome as it’s c300x more deaths.

The actual dates the borders closed are not that relevant, as it is the individual date for each country that matters depending on where they were up to - as each country was at a different stage.

127000 v 30 - which government got it right?
Japan has 50 - 60 times more over 60's than Singapore, so you'd expect higher number ofdeaths even with the same level of disease.


Just because you want to try and knock the facts aside, I will stick with them....

127000 v 30, which government did better?
I've acknowledge the basic fact...In fact I've never disputed it at all... I have, however disputed the fact that you attribute that difference to action taken by each Country and thus far you have till not managed to provide anything at all to support your argument. You accuse others of having limited information, yet your own understanding is embarrassingly limited.

Anyway... You've clearly nothing of substance to offer, so I'm out!!
 

Thelaneends1

Well-known member
It may well be fact, but it is not proof of your assumptions.

So have you got anything else to add that supports your assumptions, beyond repeating the same thing over and over or can we conclude that your argument is as flimsy as it appears to be! ?
Piss off Europe you twats.
 

glasshalffull

Well-known member
UK fcked up by aiming to achieve herd immunity without vaccination until somewhere around mid march when thankfully they changed tack.
Relaxed their guard too much over the summer (eat out to help out etc).
Too slow to lockdown in the autumn. The new variant took advantage.
Bit of a hitch over Christmas, which should have probably been cancelled, then a major success with the vaccine rollout based on good local NHS administration and very generous procurement.
All this is well known. Hopefully we are now over the hump!
 

seasideone

Well-known member
Japan has 50 - 60 times more over 60's than Singapore, so you'd expect higher number ofdeaths even with the same level of disease.



I've acknowledge the basic fact...In fact I've never disputed it at all... I have, however disputed the fact that you attribute that difference to action taken by each Country and thus far you have till not managed to provide anything at all to support your argument. You accuse others of having limited information, yet your own understanding is embarrassingly limited.

Anyway... You've clearly nothing of substance to offer, so I'm out!!
Good - because you will not face up to reality - the UK government should have shut the borders - and still haven’t learnt 👍
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
Japan have had approx 9200 deaths compared to 30, so not sure that’s a broadly similar outcome as it’s c300x more deaths.

Japan has 20x the population, but more significantly (because we are discussing government response in the first wave) most of their deaths were in the second wave, up to 30 June (say) they had the per capita equivilent of maybe 50, compared to 500+ over here.

And 9,000/80m compared to the figures we're seeing in Europe is still effectively nothing.


The actual dates the borders closed are not that relevant, as it is the individual date for each country that matters depending on where they were up to - as each country was at a different stage.

So you're saying that the UK should've closed the borders in January, maybe early February, at a time when we didn't know the virus was even in Europe, nor what it was, isn't that a bit unrealistic.

That might've had an effect although even then I'm doubtful, likewise Singapore could simply have followed the Japanese model and likely had very little difference in final outcome.


127000 v 30 - which government got it right?

Neither, or both.

One was at the global forefront of vaccine development and the development of new treatements, the other just happened to be in a part of the world that wasn't badly affected.

One got lucky, the other didn't.
 

BFC_BFC_BFC

Well-known member
Japan has 20x the population, but more significantly (because we are discussing government response in the first wave) most of their deaths were in the second wave, up to 30 June (say) they had the per capita equivilent of maybe 50, compared to 500+ over here.

And 9,000/80m compared to the figures we're seeing in Europe is still effectively nothing.




So you're saying that the UK should've closed the borders in January, maybe early February, at a time when we didn't know the virus was even in Europe, nor what it was, isn't that a bit unrealistic.

That might've had an effect although even then I'm doubtful, likewise Singapore could simply have followed the Japanese model and likely had very little difference in final outcome.




Neither, or both.

One was at the global forefront of vaccine development and the development of new treatements, the other just happened to be in a part of the world that wasn't badly affected.

One got lucky, the other didn't.
I wouldn’t waste your time...

The lights are on, but there’s nobody at home 😂
 

1950`spoolfan

Well-known member
Apart from each country`s mortality rates I don`t have all the facts at my fingertips that some of you chaps do but I do seem to recall that for a long time after this country`s shutdown there were around 1500 people a day continuing to enter this country and I seem to recall many of them were not UK citizens and testing and quarantine was far from rigorous. Just my impression and what I recall.
 
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SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
MrsDP just spoke to our friends in France.
They started a 4 week 'Lockdown' from midnight last night.
They're OK, have 23 acre land area and nearest village about 2 miles.
Love going there, hope we can this year.

Putting all this Covid/EU tittle tattle to the side, I hope you and your wife are able to enjoy a nice safe trip as soon as possible.

Maybe raise a glass to the Mighty in the Championship while you are there.
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
Yeh I agree - difficult when people will not look at the facts 😂😂😂😂😂

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government handled it better?

Oh don't worry, I get it, Singapore had a much better outcome, you think that was a result of the government response, I think that the government response had little impact on the outcome and other factors are at play.

Quite simply it is not plausible that differences in outcome on a continental scale are the result of government response, there are simply too many governments and too many different responses for that to be the case (and remember that a lot of European governments thought they'd done well in the first wave and then faced disaster second time around).

The real reasons that Asia seems to have fared well (outside of Russia anyway) remain a matter for science to discover, a process that may take years, I suspect that:
  • climate is likely to be a major factor, with the virus struggling to transmit outside of cold environments (not implausible for something that originated in a cave);
  • previous exposure to something similar might've offered protection;
  • there might be genetic factors at play, and;
  • god knows what other X-factor might be invovled .
 

SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
Apart from each country`s mortality rates I don`t have all the facts at my fingertips that some of you chaps do but I do seem to recall that for a long time after this country`s shutdown there were around 1500 people a day ,many not UK citizens continuing to enter this country and I seem to recall many of them were not UK citizens and testing and quarantine was far from rigorous. Just my impression and what I recall.

I'm no expert either but that's about right.

There are loads of other factors but I'm staying out for the night.
 

Thelaneends1

Well-known member
UK fcked up by aiming to achieve herd immunity without vaccination until somewhere around mid march when thankfully they changed tack.
Relaxed their guard too much over the summer (eat out to help out etc).
Too slow to lockdown in the autumn. The new variant took advantage.
Bit of a hitch over Christmas, which should have probably been cancelled, then a major success with the vaccine rollout based on good local NHS administration and very generous procurement.
All this is well known. Hopefully we are now over the hump!
Shut up you dic..
 

seasideone

Well-known member
Oh don't worry, I get it, Singapore had a much better outcome, you think that was a result of the government response, I think that the government response had little impact on the outcome and other factors are at play.

Quite simply it is not plausible that differences in outcome on a continental scale are the result of government response, there are simply too many governments and too many different responses for that to be the case (and remember that a lot of European governments thought they'd done well in the first wave and then faced disaster second time around).

The real reasons that Asia seems to have fared well (outside of Russia anyway) remain a matter for science to discover, a process that may take years, I suspect that:
  • climate is likely to be a major factor, with the virus struggling to transmit outside of cold environments (not implausible for something that originated in a cave);
  • previous exposure to something similar might've offered protection;
  • there might be genetic factors at play, and;
  • god knows what other X-factor might be invovled .
It’s because they closed the borders!

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government acted better?
 

JJpool

Well-known member
Arent you all right in the bfc lost and seaside one debate.

Asian countries had had similar things before wher the UK hadn't, they were therefore more prepared for something like this.

Also seems almost all of Asia didn't get it as bad, with potential factors named in posts above.

I do think the UK government were slow at times and made daft decisions at times also.

But other factors are the UK is very densely populated compared to other countries of similar population.

Obesity plays a really big part also apparently.

But lets not forget the vast over reporting of deaths probably not linked to covid but reported as covid just because they had it.

I'd also question other counties numbers, not saying Singapore have miss reported but a lot of countries won't have given accurate figures.

So I think its a bit of everything. Weather or climate, demographic, genetics, response, preparedness etc all factors.

We've never had anything like this in the UK whereas Asia has had a fair few scares.

We could have acted better, but there are also big factors at play outside of our control that would have had an impact. Governments of the past should have had stockpiles of masks for such an event but probably the last few governments are to blame for not being as prepared as we could have been.

No idea what our true death figures are but im sure will come out in the wash, am pretty sure its well over inflated though.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
Johnson was wrong about the NI border. The EU was wrong too. That situation was foreseeable, but apparently both sides failed to see it. The obvious remedy is for both sides to revisit the issue, but the EU is refusing. And that pretty much sums up the basic difference between the two. The big lumbering inflexible bloc can't deal with necessary adjustments in the trading arrangements like it can't deal with changes in the vaccine roll out, like it can't secure agreement on the covid rescue fund or on anything else. Hell, it can't even agree to extend the period of grace in Northern Ireland. How do you deal with an organisation like that?
The problem with the NI border was well known and well discussed during the negotiations. The two choices seemed to be 1) a border between NI and the Republic; in breach of the GFA or 2) a border between NI and GB, something May said no British PM could ever sign up to.

There was lots of talk about a technological solution to the problem that would avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. There was also talk about having the customs points away from the border to lessen the tension. And May negotiated her deal with a fall back which Johnson and his allies voted against.

Johnson then did what May said no British PM could ever do, and signed up to an internal border, effectively what the EU had been proposing from Day 1. His plan, if there was one, was to get Brexit, any Brexit, over the line and then renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. That’s where we are now.

As for the periods of grace, Gove was on the verge of agreeing an extension when he was replaced by Frost. Frost then undermined the work Gove had done, presumably because he thought the EU would be more likely to make concessions if they were faced with a belligerent negotiator. Or maybe he was just playing to the domestic Brexit pro audience.
 

Tangerinemoss

Well-known member
The problem with the NI border was well known and well discussed during the negotiations. The two choices seemed to be 1) a border between NI and the Republic; in breach of the GFA or 2) a border between NI and GB, something May said no British PM could ever sign up to.

There was lots of talk about a technological solution to the problem that would avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. There was also talk about having the customs points away from the border to lessen the tension. And May negotiated her deal with a fall back which Johnson and his allies voted against.

Johnson then did what May said no British PM could ever do, and signed up to an internal border, effectively what the EU had been proposing from Day 1. His plan, if there was one, was to get Brexit, any Brexit, over the line and then renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. That’s where we are now.

As for the periods of grace, Gove was on the verge of agreeing an extension when he was replaced by Frost. Frost then undermined the work Gove had done, presumably because he thought the EU would be more likely to make concessions if they were faced with a belligerent negotiator. Or maybe he was just playing to the domestic Brexit pro audience.
Oi, I've told you before about posting rational factual based information rather than political polemics. Not acceptable on this site 🤣
 

SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
Arent you all right in the bfc lost and seaside one debate.

Asian countries had had similar things before wher the UK hadn't, they were therefore more prepared for something like this.

Also seems almost all of Asia didn't get it as bad, with potential factors named in posts above.

I do think the UK government were slow at times and made daft decisions at times also.

But other factors are the UK is very densely populated compared to other countries of similar population.

Obesity plays a really big part also apparently.

But lets not forget the vast over reporting of deaths probably not linked to covid but reported as covid just because they had it.

I'd also question other counties numbers, not saying Singapore have miss reported but a lot of countries won't have given accurate figures.

So I think its a bit of everything. Weather or climate, demographic, genetics, response, preparedness etc all factors.

We've never had anything like this in the UK whereas Asia has had a fair few scares.

We could have acted better, but there are also big factors at play outside of our control that would have had an impact. Governments of the past should have had stockpiles of masks for such an event but probably the last few governments are to blame for not being as prepared as we could have been.

No idea what our true death figures are but im sure will come out in the wash, am pretty sure its well over inflated though.

JJ

A good post.

Lots of factors that could be debated forever and a day and then a bit more.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
The problem with the NI border was well known and well discussed during the negotiations. The two choices seemed to be 1) a border between NI and the Republic; in breach of the GFA or 2) a border between NI and GB, something May said no British PM could ever sign up to.

There was lots of talk about a technological solution to the problem that would avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland. There was also talk about having the customs points away from the border to lessen the tension. And May negotiated her deal with a fall back which Johnson and his allies voted against.

Johnson then did what May said no British PM could ever do, and signed up to an internal border, effectively what the EU had been proposing from Day 1. His plan, if there was one, was to get Brexit, any Brexit, over the line and then renegotiate the withdrawal agreement. That’s where we are now.

As for the periods of grace, Gove was on the verge of agreeing an extension when he was replaced by Frost. Frost then undermined the work Gove had done, presumably because he thought the EU would be more likely to make concessions if they were faced with a belligerent negotiator. Or maybe he was just playing to the domestic Brexit pro audience.

I suspect both sides were aware that the NI border problem was insoluble, but the UK wanted to close the deal and frankly, despite all its rhetoric, the EU didn't care that much so long as there was an EU/UK border. The first theoretical, workable remedy is still for Ireland to be united as a single country, but that would trigger a new civil war on the island.

Remember, the UK doesn't want a border, but the EU insists on one. That's the starting point. So the second theoretical remedy is to remove border controls completely. In other words to restore the position pre-2021. That would suit the UK but not the EU, which means the dispute at this moment is all about satisfying the EU's demands and of course it doesn't care much about peace on the island provided goods can't move freely between the province and the Republic. In summary, unless the EU compromises on border control there will continue to be violence and threats between the factions in Ireland.
 

Davepick

Well-known member
Putting all this Covid/EU tittle tattle to the side, I hope you and your wife are able to enjoy a nice safe trip as soon as possible.

Maybe raise a glass to the Mighty in the Championship while you are there.
Cheers S20. Hope so too.
My friend is a M'Boro fan so we can have a few for both teams.
P.S. He loves his Red Wine. As do I. 😉
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
No, the EU insists on an Irish border. The UK wants little or no border restrictions.
So you’re saying the U.K. government would be happy to see Freedom of Movement over the NI/Eire border? And not just of Irish Citizens under the Common Travel arrangements; all EU citizens?

I’ve not seen that mentioned anywhere. Can you send a link please.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
So you’re saying the U.K. government would be happy to see Freedom of Movement over the NI/Eire border? And not just of Irish Citizens under the Common Travel arrangements; all EU citizens? I’ve not seen that mentioned anywhere. Can you send a link please.

The UK would be happy to see goods move freely over the Irish border just as they were before January, whether that is a land or sea border. Unfortunately, the EC doesn't want any type of free movement between the UK and the EU. I shouldn't need to send you a link for something so basic. With regard to people, neither side wants free movement between the two, but that already happens.
 

Thelaneends1

Well-known member
The UK would be happy to see goods move freely over the Irish border just as they were before January, whether that is a land or sea border. Unfortunately, the EC doesn't want any type of free movement between the UK and the EU. I shouldn't need to send you a link for something so basic.
EU wants its cake and also wants to devour it.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
The UK would be happy to see goods move freely over the Irish border just as they were before January, whether that is a land or sea border. Unfortunately, the EC doesn't want any type of free movement between the UK and the EU. I shouldn't need to send you a link for something so basic.
But Freedom of Movement covers goods, services, capital and workers. So you seem to be saying the U.K. wants freedom of movement for goods but not workers. If that’s right how can it control the movement of workers without a border or restrictions, which you say it doesn’t want?

And shouldn’t all of this have been addressed in the Withdrawal Agreement the U.K. negotiated and signed not that long ago? Why has it only just been discovered by the U.K. government now?
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
But Freedom of Movement covers goods, services, capital and workers. So you seem to be saying the U.K. wants freedom of movement for goods but not workers. If that’s right how can it control the movement of workers without a border or restrictions, which you say it doesn’t want? And shouldn’t all of this have been addressed in the Withdrawal Agreement the U.K. negotiated and signed not that long ago? Why has it only just been discovered by the U.K. government now?

Yes it should. And there's no control over the movement of workers.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
Yes it should.
So why didn’t the U.K. identify and address the problem before it signed the Withdrawal Agreement?

It’s almost as if they were so desperate to say they’d Got Brexit Done that they’d have signed anything the EU put in front of them.

And now, just a couple of months later, we have the EU saying you need to comply with what you signed up to and the U.K. are saying “Errr we can’t. It’s more difficult than we thought. We need to go back to the drawing board”.

And I’m still not clear how if, as you say, the U.K. doesn’t want a border or any restrictions that affect Ireland they can control freedom of movement of workers. You don’t appear to have explained that as far as I can see.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
So why didn’t the U.K. identify and address the problem before it signed the Withdrawal Agreement?

It’s almost as if they were so desperate to say they’d Got Brexit Done that they’d have signed anything the EU put in front of them.

And now, just a couple of months later, we have the EU saying you need to comply with what you signed up to and the U.K. are saying “Errr we can’t. It’s more difficult than we thought. We need to go back to the drawing board”.

And I’m still not clear how if, as you say, the U.K. doesn’t want a border or any restrictions that affect Ireland they can control freedom of movement of workers. You don’t appear to have explained that as far as I can see.

As I said at #63 I believe both the UK and the EU failed to properly address the problem, probably because they were so desperate to say they’d Got Brexit Done that they’d have signed anything, as you put it. As with many political and trade agreements, the practical operation is not what was envisaged. Grown ups would acknowledge that and have another attempt to improve the situation but, as I said above, the EU doesn't do reviewing.

It seems to me that the NI border problem belongs to the EU and Republic of Ireland since it is they who insist on border checks. So it should be up to them to provide a solution. After all, it's they who want border restrictions on goods moving in and out of the EU. Maybe they should carry out their own border checks on the Republic's side of the border.

As for workers, nobody wants to restrict their movement and nor should they. Workers move in and out of the EU in huge numbers every day, see Gibraltar/Spain and Norway/Sweden. They are not an issue.
 

BigHandsOliverKahn

Well-known member
No, the EU insists on an Irish border. The UK wants little or no border restrictions.
The UK includes Northern Ireland. Brexit meant re-introducing a border which didn't exist in any meaningful manner whilst both the UK and Ireland were both in the EU. After losing my personal freedom to live and work across the whole of Europe, avoiding a return to bloodshed in Northern Ireland was the next biggest reason I saw as a reason not to leave the EU (even bigger than messing up your own econony). The border problem had been solved by the EU. The UK has re-created the problem.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
The UK includes Northern Ireland. Brexit meant re-introducing a border which didn't exist in any meaningful manner whilst both the UK and Ireland were both in the EU. After losing my personal freedom to live and work across the whole of Europe, avoiding a return to bloodshed in Northern Ireland was the next biggest reason I saw as a reason not to leave the EU (even bigger than messing up your own econony). The border problem had been solved by the EU. The UK has re-created the problem.

The EC has no concern whatsoever about bloodshed in N Ireland. That was always clear, but was confirmed beyond doubt when it decided to ditch the NI Protocol over the vaccine distribution. You'll probably point out that they changed their mind, but that change couldn't hide the fact that punishment of the UK was higher in their list of priorities than peace in Northern Ireland.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
It seems to me that the NI border problem belongs to the EU and Republic of Ireland since it is they who insist on border checks. So it should be up to them to provide a solution.

As for workers, nobody wants to restrict their movement and nor should they.
The EU did provide a solution. It was in the Withdrawal Agreement and NI Protocol that the U.K. signed up to just a few months ago, but which we now say we can’t comply with, or rather we’ll need more time before we can do so. You seem to be saying that because the U.K. can’t comply with its obligations the Agreement and Protocol, then the EU should come up with a different solution. And if they don’t they are being completely unreasonable.

As for no one wanting to restrict freedom of movement, you should refer to the Home Secretary’s frequent pronouncements on visas and a points system for anyone wanting to work in the U.K. And, of course, immigration was a huge issue for many people in 2016. So, of course, it’s government policy and the wish of a sizeable proportion of the U.K. population to restrict freedom of movement.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
The EC has no concern whatsoever about bloodshed in N Ireland. That was always clear, but was confirmed beyond doubt when it decided to ditch the NI Protocol over the vaccine distribution. You'll probably point out that they changed their mind, but that change couldn't hide the fact that punishment of the UK was higher in their list of priorities than peace in Northern Ireland.
There’s no doubt that UVDL made a very stupid mistake when she muddled up the issues of vaccine distribution and the issues in Ireland. However there’s also no doubt that Brexiters are playing that card as hard as they can.

The reality is that the ruling was in place for only a few hours (3 I believe) before the Irish Government had it pulled, and it had zero practical impact on either vaccine distribution or the peace process (other than to give the DUP a propaganda tool).

It’s also true that the Brexiters are also not shy of playing fast and loose with the NI Protocol and the GFA when it suits their agenda. At least until the US tells them to stop it.
 

BigHandsOliverKahn

Well-known member
The EC has no concern whatsoever about bloodshed in N Ireland. That was always clear, but was confirmed beyond doubt when it decided to ditch the NI Protocol over the vaccine distribution. You'll probably point out that they changed their mind, but that change couldn't hide the fact that punishment of the UK was higher in their list of priorities than peace in Northern Ireland.
Why do you expect the EU to be responsible for a problem created by the 16th century English invasion of Ireland and the 1921 British creation of Northern Ireland?
 

seasideone

Well-known member
It’s hardly a peer reviewed article and in any case it quotes the following....

"The big differences with the West have been the strict border shutdowns and the rigorous testing of infected people, whether they were sick or asymptomatic," notes Professor Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore.

So as I said “The UK government where inept and should have closed the borders”

THAT AS STATED BY THE PUBLICATION YOU HAVE LINKED AGREES WITH ME 👍

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government handled it better?
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
It’s hardly a peer reviewed article and in any case it quotes the following....

"The big differences with the West have been the strict border shutdowns and the rigorous testing of infected people, whether they were sick or asymptomatic," notes Professor Teo Yik Ying, dean of the Saw Swee Hock School of Public Health at the National University of Singapore.

......scientists are still astonished by the exceptional performance of Asia and are now reflecting upon a more medical explanation. What if Asian populations were naturally more resistant to the coronavirus? Could there be some form of "Asian immunity" linked to past epidemics or even genetic characteristics?

In Tokyo, a number of researchers are convinced of the validity of these hypotheses. To try to confirm them, Tatsuhiko Kodama, of the University of Tokyo, has analyzed the immune response of more than 100 people infected with the coronavirus in Japan these past few months. He was surprised to discover the high level of a particular type of antibody in the blood of all his patients.


Usually, when a patient is attacked by an unknown foreign substance, his immune system will first generate an antibody called "IgM" to defend itself against the virus. A few days later, when his immune system has integrated this first attack and started to build an immune memory, he will generate a second type of antibody called "IgG".

"However, our patients, who were infected with SARS-CoV-2, immediately show high levels of IgG antibodies and low levels of IgM", explains Tatsuhiko Kodama. "So we deduced that their system reacts as if it had already been attacked in the past by a coronavirus of the same type."

According to the researcher, East Asia populations have therefore naturally developed a form of resistance to SARS-CoV-2. This is because they have already been exposed, over the course of their lives, to a multitude of other less ferocious cousins of the coronavirus. "It's not just MERS or SARS, but many other viruses of a similar type which are circulating," he says. "This explains why the death toll is so low in East Asia."



So as I said “The UK government where inept and should have closed the borders”

On what day do you think the UK should've closed the borders?
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
The EU did provide a solution. It was in the Withdrawal Agreement and NI Protocol that the U.K. signed up to just a few months ago, but which we now say we can’t comply with, or rather we’ll need more time before we can do so. You seem to be saying that because the U.K. can’t comply with its obligations the Agreement and Protocol, then the EU should come up with a different solution. And if they don’t they are being completely unreasonable.

As for no one wanting to restrict freedom of movement, you should refer to the Home Secretary’s frequent pronouncements on visas and a points system for anyone wanting to work in the U.K. And, of course, immigration was a huge issue for many people in 2016. So, of course, it’s government policy and the wish of a sizeable proportion of the U.K. population to restrict freedom of movement.

You seem to be talking yourself round in circles. It's clear that the pseudo EU border doesn't work, so it's not a solution. That means another solution is required. That requires two things: firstly, agreement on both sides to negotiate a better system and secondly, extension of the period of grace to enable trade to continue in the interim. However, it seems the EC is not interested in that solution.

As for freedom of workers' movement, I think you're getting immigrants mixed up with cross-border workers. They are different things.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
Why do you expect the EU to be responsible for a problem created by the 16th century English invasion of Ireland and the 1921 British creation of Northern Ireland?

I don't, at least no more than I expect the EU to be responsible for problems created by Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939. Those events were then. These are now.
 

seasideone

Well-known member
You seem to be talking yourself round in circles. It's clear that the pseudo EU border doesn't work, so it's not a solution. That means another solution is required. That requires two things: firstly, agreement on both sides to negotiate a better system and secondly, extension of the period of grace to enable trade to continue in the interim. However, it seems the EC is not interested in that solution.

As for freedom of workers' movement, I think you're getting immigrants mixed up with cross-border workers. They are different things.
Excellent selective editing.....

He then goes on to say.....

‘Although compelling, this genetic explanation isn't enough in the case of COVID-19, specialists admit’


The reality is, what you are quoting is conjecture where the only difference is admitted, is about the borders being closed and tight quarantine enforced actually made the difference.

In regards to when the UK should have closed the borders, as you know it’s impossible for me to give an exact date as I am not privy to all the info SAGE and the Cabinet have.

What is criminal in the UK, is that they are still not properly closed!!!!!

Now answer the question.....

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government handled it better?
 
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