Covid Europe

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Lost Seasider

Well-known member
Excellent selective editing.....

The point is that it's more complicated than borders open/closed.


In regards to when the UK should have closed the borders, as you know it’s impossible for me to give an exact date as I am not privy to all the info SAGE and the Cabinet have.

The minutes are all here: https://www.gov.uk/search/transpare...ry-group-for-emergencies&order=updated-oldest

You have access to all of the information available to the government at the time you should therefore be able to give an exact date when the UK should've closed the borders.

But failing that, lets narrow it down to a month:
  • December 2019?
  • January 2020?
  • February 2020?
  • March 2020?
  • Other?

What is criminal in the UK, is that they are still not properly closed!!!!!

"there is no point, the virus is already here".


Now answer the question.....

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government handled it better?

Answered in post 106 above.
 

BigHandsOliverKahn

Well-known member
I don't, at least no more than I expect the EU to be responsible for problems created by Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939. Those events were then. These are now.
The events in Northern Ireland now are current and caused by Brexit re-opening previously healed wounds that the EU blanket had allowed to heal.
 
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seasideone

Well-known member
The point is that it's more complicated than borders open/closed.




The minutes are all here: https://www.gov.uk/search/transparency-and-freedom-of-information-releases?parent=scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies&organisations[]=scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies&order=updated-oldest

You have access to all of the information available to the government at the time you should therefore be able to give an exact date when the UK should've closed the borders.

But failing that, lets narrow it down to a month:
  • December 2019?
  • January 2020?
  • February 2020?
  • March 2020?
  • Other?



"there is no point, the virus is already here".




Answered in post 106 above.
You did not answer the post, you said one was lucky which is plainly not true. The evidence you brought up (although from a pretty dubious source at best) also says that closing the borders made the difference.

As I have said previously, and I will not answer this question again - as I cannot answer when the UK should have closed it borders, as I am not privy to the same info SAGE and the PM have.

You state there is no point in shutting the borders as the virus is already here - so what about variants, and by letting more infected people in you just throw petrol on the fire - or do you not get this?

The government have not learned and are still letting people in without strict quarantine.?

This is interesting from another avftt post - or do you think this is ok as well?
(baring in mind you think we don't need to lock the borders, as the virus is already in the UK)

 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
Excellent selective editing.....

He then goes on to say.....

‘Although compelling, this genetic explanation isn't enough in the case of COVID-19, specialists admit’

The reality is, what you are quoting is conjecture where the only difference is admitted, is about the borders being closed and tight quarantine enforced actually made the difference.

In regards to when the UK should have closed the borders, as you know it’s impossible for me to give an exact date as I am not privy to all the info SAGE and the Cabinet have.

What is criminal in the UK, is that they are still not properly closed!!!!!

Now answer the question.....

127000 v 9200 v 30

Which government handled it better?

Why are you quoting me? I didn't comment on your debate

Aargh. This thread is out of control. I'm out of here.
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
As I have said previously, and I will not answer this question again - as I cannot answer when the UK should have closed it borders, as I am not privy to the same info SAGE and the PM have.

All of the information available to goverment is publically available so that excuse simply does not wash.

The fact that you can't state which month the borders should've closed shows the fatal flaw in your argument, you can't give a date, or even a month because it would either be unrealistically early or too late to make a difference.


You state there is no point in shutting the borders as the virus is already here - so what about variants, and by letting more infected people in you just throw petrol on the fire - or do you not get this?

The government have not learned and are still letting people in without strict quarantine.?

Hotel quarantine for high risk areas, quarantine at home for lower risk areas.

Leisure travel not allowed, short of cutting off supplies of food and medicine there's not much more that could be done.

Do you not get the fact that when you've got 10,000 domestic infections per day a tiny handful of extra cases from abroad makes no difference whatsoever?
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
You did not answer the post, you said one was lucky which is plainly not true. The evidence you brought up (although from a pretty dubious source at best) also says that closing the borders made the difference.

Very simply the question is meaningless, the two countries faced two completely different situations and had very different outcomes as a result.
 

seasideone

Well-known member
All of the information available to goverment is publically available so that excuse simply does not wash.

The fact that you can't state which month the borders should've closed shows the fatal flaw in your argument, you can't give a date, or even a month because it would either be unrealistically early or too late to make a difference.




Hotel quarantine for high risk areas, quarantine at home for lower risk areas.

Leisure travel not allowed, short of cutting off supplies of food and medicine there's not much more that could be done.

Do you not get the fact that when you've got 10,000 domestic infections per day a tiny handful of extra cases from abroad makes no difference whatsoever?
You really think the minutes of a meeting cover everything?

If so you are in dream world mate 😂

Starting new clusters when you have 10,000 cases per day by letting more people in makes perfect sense 😂😂😂😂😂😂
 

seasideone

Well-known member
Very simply the question is meaningless, the two countries faced two completely different situations and had very different outcomes as a result.
They faced different situations because of how the governments acted.

One closed the borders and the other didn’t and still hasn’t!!
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
As I said at #63 I believe both the UK and the EU failed to properly address the problem, probably because they were so desperate to say they’d Got Brexit Done that they’d have signed anything, as you put it. As with many political and trade agreements, the practical operation is not what was envisaged. Grown ups would acknowledge that and have another attempt to improve the situation but, as I said above, the EU doesn't do reviewing.

It seems to me that the NI border problem belongs to the EU and Republic of Ireland since it is they who insist on border checks. So it should be up to them to provide a solution. After all, it's they who want border restrictions on goods moving in and out of the EU. Maybe they should carry out their own border checks on the Republic's side of the border.

As for workers, nobody wants to restrict their movement and nor should they. Workers move in and out of the EU in huge numbers every day, see Gibraltar/Spain and Norway/Sweden. They are not an issue.
As for workers, no-one wants to restrict their movement.

Other than the Tory party and the Daily Mail readership who want control of our borders and not foreigners coming over here taking our jobs.
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
You really think the minutes of a meeting cover everything?

If so you are in dream world mate 😂

Starting new clusters when you have 10,000 cases per day by letting more people in makes perfect sense 😂😂😂😂😂😂

The fatal flaw in your argument is that you can't find a date on which the borders should've been closed.

The minutes should provide an adequate record of what was known at the time, have you even bothered to look at them?
 

seasideone

Well-known member
The fatal flaw in your argument is that you can't find a date on which the borders should've been closed.

The minutes should provide an adequate record of what was known at the time, have you even bothered to look at them?
The minutes never show everything - I would rather say I don’t know, than come out with some made up ridiculous answer - I will leave that for others on here.

Your argument is that with 10,000 cases a day there is no point in shutting the border as it is already here.

Which has been proved to be daft when you take into consideration new variants, and why also would you throw petrol on the flames!!!

Now cases are dropping in the UK, do you agree it’s time to close the borders to stop all these people coming in who could well be infected, and with new variants that maybe the vaccines do not work against??

Anyway - have plans for the next couple of hours with chizzy and a ifollow 👍

UTMP
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
The minutes never show everything - I would rather say I don’t know, than come out with some made up ridiculous answer - I will leave that for others on here.

The fact that you can't answer the question shows the flaw in the argument.

The only answers you could give would be either:
  • unrealistically early, or;
  • too late to make a difference.
 

seasideone

Well-known member
Great half by the mighty 👍

I have answered your question, if you don’t like the answer - tough!

Still waiting for you to answer the question on what circumstances you would close the border?
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
Great half by the mighty 👍

Let's hope they can keep it up in the second half. 👍


I have answered your question, if you don’t like the answer - tough!

With respect, refusing to answer the question is not answering the question.

Personally I think 25th February would be the best answer, that was the day when they introduced self-isolation for those returning from Italy, being hyper-critical maybe at that point someone should've said "if Italy has it who else has it too" and required S-I for everyone returning home from abroad.

Hotel quarantine was never going to be an option due to the numbers involved, there just weren't enough hotel rooms in the UK.

Would it have made a difference? Possibly the first wave would've been smaller, although likely at the cost of a larger second wave, on balance it could well have made things worse.

Is it reasonable to criticise the government for not acting a month before Singapore? You tell me.


Still waiting for you to answer the question on what circumstances you would close the border?

Simple, when the CMO & CSA say it's a good idea.

It's also important to note that the phrase "close the borders" is misleading, border restrictions are not a binary open/closed state but a range of measures including hotel quarantine, quarantine at home, advice against travel to certain areas or total refusal of entry, and in fact the measures the UK took were much more similar to those in place in Singapore than you appear willing to admit.

4 - 1 now, maybe I'll have to dust off my old shirt for the play offs.
 

Recidivist3

Well-known member
Excellent unbroken 45 run partnership between Lost Seasider, 15 n.o., and SeasiderOne, 30 n.o. taking the score onto 165-9 at tea

Highlights here

 

Newholland

Well-known member
Excellent unbroken 45 run partnership between Lost Seasider, 15 n.o., and SeasiderOne, 30 n.o. taking the score onto 165-9 at tea

Highlights here

Think BFCx3 deserves a mention for keeping things ticking over middle order, 20’s a nice knock and of course Cat , always good for a couple of sixes before typically scuttling back to the pavilion after facing a hostile delivery 😁👍
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member
You seem to be talking yourself round in circles.
Not really. Although I do keep asking the same question which you seem unable to answer.

In post 128 you claimed “The U.K. wants little or no border restrictions”.

I questioned that statement and asked how, if it’s true, the U.K. could control immigration and freedom of movement. I’m still waiting on clarification.
 

SEASIDE2020

Well-known member
Think BFCx3 deserves a mention for keeping things ticking over middle order, 20’s a nice knock and of course Cat , always good for a couple of sixes before typically scuttling back to the pavilion after facing a hostile delivery 😁👍

Absolutely but they were batting on two tracks - Mex chunnering on about the Irish border and seaside and x3 debating the handling of Covid - in the same field so hard to keep track of the score.

I wouldn't say Cat and 20's had their own wicket on this field but I'm thinking it will be a very successful partnership on other fields/threads in the near future.
 

tangerinenotorange

Well-known member
Not really. Although I do keep asking the same question which you seem unable to answer.

In post 128 you claimed “The U.K. wants little or no border restrictions”.

I questioned that statement and asked how, if it’s true, the U.K. could control immigration and freedom of movement. I’m still waiting on clarification.

OK let me know when you get it. It will save me having to explain it to you.
 

Mexboroseasider

Well-known member

Newholland

Well-known member
Absolutely but they were batting on two tracks - Mex chunnering on about the Irish border and seaside and x3 debating the handling of Covid - in the same field so hard to keep track of the score.

I wouldn't say Cat and 20's had their own wicket on this field but I'm thinking it will be a very successful partnership on other fields/threads in the near future.
🤣👍
 

BigHandsOliverKahn

Well-known member
It’s just that the Tory Party doesn’t seem to agree with you.
When they say they don't want borders, they are in denial that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. They just want borders for England. We now have petrol bombs exploding night after night on UK soil because of Brexit and the people who have caused this now desperately try to avoid all responsibility, even trying to blame the EU despite it being an English and British made problem stemming back to the 16th century long before the EU existed.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
Again. Which criticism of Boris Johnson is incorrect?
I have not had an answer yet.
Or to put it a different way. What makes anyone with any level of morality support a corrupt, self serving liar who shows complete contempt for decent standards of behaviour, calls black people picaninnies ( not racist apparently), calls gay men bum boys ( not homophobic apparently ) or that women go to university to find men to marry ( not sexist apparently )
Why should it not be allowed to criticise such a person?
 

Bend it like Suddick

Well-known member
Again. Which criticism of Boris Johnson is incorrect?
I have not had an answer yet.
Or to put it a different way. What makes anyone with any level of morality support a corrupt, self serving liar who shows complete contempt for decent standards of behaviour, calls black people picaninnies ( not racist apparently), calls gay men bum boys ( not homophobic apparently ) or that women go to university to find men to marry ( not sexist apparently )
Why should it not be allowed to criticise such a person?
It should, but constructively. Several of your points, ( not the latter ones) could have easily be attributed to Comrade Corbyn aswell, so for once put things into perspective.

Im sure Boris isn't an IRA sympathetic, Anti Semitic politician either.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
To be fair Boris put the IRA supporting Claire Fox in the House of Lords.
He also published articles by the racist and self proclaimed antisemite Taki Theodoracopulos and described him as a distinguished columnist, and wrote anti Semitic stereotypes of Jewish oligarchs controlling the media and fixing elections when he was a shadow minister for the Arts.
 

Bend it like Suddick

Well-known member
To be fair Boris put the IRA supporting Claire Fox in the House of Lords.
He also published articles by the racist and self proclaimed antisemite Taki Theodoracopulos and described him as a distinguished columnist, and wrote anti Semitic stereotypes of Jewish oligarchs controlling the media and fixing elections when he was a shadow minister for the Arts.
Yep, I take your point. However the only connection with Boris seems to be her involvement with Brexit. She is unaffiliated, so not a Tory.
Were the attacks on the Jewish oligarchs political or anti semitic? I genuinely haven't a Scooby, so cannot comment.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
He appointed her to the house of lords. imagine your reaction if Jeremy Corbyn had appointed someone who proclaimed " the right of the Irish people to take whatever measures are necessary in their struggle for freedom."
Still doesn't answer the racism, homophobia and sexism points or which criticism of Boris Johnson is incorrect either. I'm not surprised at this as you are just the latest in a long line that fail to do so?
 

TwelveAngryMen

Well-known member
All of the information available to goverment is publically available so that excuse simply does not wash.

The fact that you can't state which month the borders should've closed shows the fatal flaw in your argument, you can't give a date, or even a month because it would either be unrealistically early or too late to make a difference.




Hotel quarantine for high risk areas, quarantine at home for lower risk areas.

Leisure travel not allowed, short of cutting off supplies of food and medicine there's not much more that could be done.

Do you not get the fact that when you've got 10,000 domestic infections per day a tiny handful of extra cases from abroad makes no difference whatsoever?
' a tiny handful of cases ' ( per day I presume and if that's what it is ) x 365+ surely becomes a far larger problem

It also begs the question why the rules we apply to our our citizens don't apply to those who seek to enter the UK
 

TSSeasider

Well-known member
When they say they don't want borders, they are in denial that Northern Ireland is part of the UK. They just want borders for England. We now have petrol bombs exploding night after night on UK soil because of Brexit and the people who have caused this now desperately try to avoid all responsibility, even trying to blame the EU despite it being an English and British made problem stemming back to the 16th century long before the EU existed.
We have petrol bombs exploding night after night on UK soil, because of the dick heads who throw them. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland (and for that matter the republic) aren't throwing them.
 

catinstalbans

Well-known member
And a curious silence from those that want to shoot demonstrators on the streets of London and Bristol but ignore the petrol bombers and police injuries when it suits.
 

RUSTY_2_STANDS

Well-known member
We have petrol bombs exploding night after night on UK soil, because of the dick heads who throw them. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the people of Northern Ireland (and for that matter the republic) aren't throwing them.
Spot on. Brexit is just a convenient excuse. The blame lies entirely with the people who are throwing the petrol bombs and causing the trouble.
 

Newholland

Well-known member
Again. Which criticism of Boris Johnson is incorrect?
I have not had an answer yet.
Or to put it a different way. What makes anyone with any level of morality support a corrupt, self serving liar who shows complete contempt for decent standards of behaviour, calls black people picaninnies ( not racist apparently), calls gay men bum boys ( not homophobic apparently ) or that women go to university to find men to marry ( not sexist apparently )
Why should it not be allowed to criticise such a person?
“What makes anyone with any level of morality support a corrupt , self serving liar.......” .........A credible alternative?
 

Wizaard

Well-known member
The point is that it's more complicated than borders open/closed.




The minutes are all here: https://www.gov.uk/search/transparency-and-freedom-of-information-releases?parent=scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies&organisations[]=scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies&order=updated-oldest

You have access to all of the information available to the government at the time you should therefore be able to give an exact date when the UK should've closed the borders.

But failing that, lets narrow it down to a month:
  • December 2019?
  • January 2020?
  • February 2020?
  • March 2020?
  • Other?



"there is no point, the virus is already here".




Answered in post 106 above.
This 'there is no point, the virus is already here' is the most fatuous argument of all. If we fail to learn from a year ago, then it really is criminal.

As it is, new variants are popping up. The vaccination is doing a great job at suppressing the existing virus, but allowing travel in and out raises the risk totally unnecessarily. These variants aren't already here, but were doing all we can to let them in if we allow unrestricted access, as is more or less the case now.
 

Lost Seasider

Well-known member
' a tiny handful of cases ' ( per day I presume and if that's what it is ) x 365+ surely becomes a far larger problem

Some rough estimates.

Back in Feb/Mar 2020 there were very roughly 50 cases per day being imported, for the rest of the last year probably much less than that but just to be on the safe side lets say 50 x 365 = 18,250.

12.4 million people are estimated to have had the disease by 3 Jan, for the last 3 months shall we round that up to 15m.

20,000/15,000,000 x 100 = 0.13%.

Personally I think 20,000 is a vast over-estimate (we didn't see a big spike in cases over the summer when foreign travel was allowed), excluding Feb/Mar 2020 I think 2,000 is probably closer to the mark so 0.013%.

Substitute your own numbers if you disagree with mine and let me know what you come up with.


Edit:

To put 0.013% into context, at the absolute peak of the second wave there were just under 40,000 patients in hospital, 0.013% is another 5, or maybe another 20 deaths out of 150,000.


It also begs the question why the rules we apply to our our citizens don't apply to those who seek to enter the UK

AFAIK they do.
 
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catinstalbans

Well-known member
criticism of Cat's pov or beliefs is not allowed. He'll go complaining to the mods to remove your posts..
And again. Which point about the liar Boris Johnson is wrong?
As long as you don't respond with an abusive comment I have no need to complain to anyone?
 

avftt_admin2

Moderator
Staff member
Apologies to the posters who were enjoying this thread. It has been closed as it seems to be degenerating into name-calling and abuse.

We would remind posters that the PM facility is available if you wish to argue points further and the ignore facility is also there if you don't. Please consider other posters besides yourselves. Thanks to those of you who reported posts to us.
 
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