England 🏴 v Italy 🇮🇹 Euro Final 🏆 Official Thread 11.07.21
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Killingmesoftly
Well-known member
If we’d of set up similar line up but started grealish for rice/Philips and say sancho for mount, we’d of been overrun in a lightweight midfield and could of been 2 down by halftime…it’s easy to criticise Southgate…
JJpool
Well-known member
Maybe, we won't know, but we needed to be more positive and use our talent.
We have players who can hurt teams and didn't use them at all in some cases.
I agree with Gary.
Insider
Well-known member
You are right but that will be the order and of course you'll never know before kick off who will be on the pitch. I can't believe though it came as a surprise to those selected they were in the first five. All irrelevant know.
voyeur
Well-known member
It's easy though, for Gary Lineker to sit in a big glass box looking down on it all and tap out a tweet on his iphone.
Quell surprise.....
Thats basically saying Gareth got it wrong. After years of wishing we had the talent, we get it and don't use it..... couldn't make it up, another England masterclass
At the end if the night, Mancini beat Southgate on penalties. One penalty. And Spain suffered the same. For all the effort that goes in, the best teams are invariably separated in this wafer thin manner. We are now in amongst the best teams. I'd like to see us expand our attacking thoughts a bit, but you have to acknowledge the fact that we've had a WC semi and a Euro final in our last two tournaments, with very young players.
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SeasideKurt
Well-known member
I don't think Italy were all that, they ground a win out against Spain and only scored 1 extra pen than us. Chiesa was ** brilliant and Bonucci and Chiellini were beyond solid. Outside of that they have a lot of efforts which went miles wide and kept possession without looking that dangerous.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
One thing that worries me is it’s going to be the same again in 18 months time in Qatar.
Southgate must change the way he coaches because being far too defensive minded simply doesn’t work in the modern game.
Southgate must change the way he coaches because being far too defensive minded simply doesn’t work in the modern game.
20togo
Well-known member
Over the course of the tournament we've been more defence minded than attack minded and it worked and we got the results. Yesterday we didn't. I said earlier in the thread that the person asking the most questions of Southgates decisions will be himself.For me, he's got the talent in the squad but he's got to find a way to use the flair players better than he has done.
Lytham_fy8
Well-known member
Well we missed a trophy on the vagaries of an arbitrary shootout, so something's working.
SeasideKurt
Well-known member
I really like Mason Mount and when he's got 3/4 attacking players around him he can find them in space. Last night wasn't the game for him.
It should have been a Sancho or Saka to add to the threats Sterling/Trippier and Shaw provided. Such fine margins.
It should have been a Sancho or Saka to add to the threats Sterling/Trippier and Shaw provided. Such fine margins.
Lala
Well-known member
voyeur
Well-known member
There's truth in both arguments. Safety first is how all international teams basically play in tournaments. We got to within a penalty or two of winning a tournament. But we had our best chance for 55 years, playing at home, and we sat back on a 1-0 lead. We could have still played carefully but brought another quick attacking player on to exploit the inevitable space as Italy looked for an equaliser. 2-0 and we win. Sit too deep and try to stem constant attacks and an equaliser is always just around the corner.
Wizaard
Well-known member
You don't mind losing on penalties if they've put their laces through it, but fannying about. stuttering runs just make you look silly when they don't come off, especially against a 6' 8" keeper.
That goes for Jorginho as well, which Pickford read so well.
BFC_53
Well-known member
All the England players should this morning be asking Harry Maguire how to take a penalty, because his was as near perfect as you can get. If a centre half can do it, then they all can if they practice enough. Sorry I don't agree that penalties is a lottery, if it was straightforward luck then we'd have won a few.
Toastrack
Well-known member
Yep, stuttering run ups and pausing seem to be a current fad, but they go against every instinct a young player has absorbed in years of football.
If they're waiting for the keeper to move, it means they're not deciding where to put it - or changing their mind - at the last moment, which is fraught with risk.
It works for Bruno Fernandes & Pogba, but then they're ace penalty takers.
Blackpool_Gaz
Well-known member
“If you are Sterling or Grealish, you can’t sit there and let a young kid walk up ahead of you” - Roy Keane on Saka’s penalty miss.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
Something is working I agree but you get nothing for finishing runners up.
After conceding that early goal Italy were shell shocked for 10/15 minutes and we failed to get at them for the second goal infact we never looked like scoring the longer the game went on.
Hurts me to say we were beaten by a far more creative team who wanted it more.
Penalties is a lottery but when 3 of your players miss them were never going to win a shoot out.
Lytham_fy8
Well-known member
Were Italy far more creative? For all their possession they actually created little, they didn't against Spain either, they're a team built on a solid defence and the odd counter, much like ourselves.
Mancini was the luckiest manager in the tournament, which is often what it boils down to once the fundamentals are in place.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
It had fuck all to do with ‘creativity’ and everything to do with experience. They out ‘gamesmanshipped’ us all over the park and were allowed to do it.
Lala
Well-known member
I think Italy were wiser and less naive than our lads.
They had Sterling in chains with little chance of him breaking free.
They used ‘alternative’ methods to stop us that weren’t overly gamesmanship and they knew how far they could push it.
And then they got lucky with the pens.
On the night they deserved to win on balance, but we weren’t easy to break down.
Pickford was amazing, held his nerve at every juncture. The rest of the team played their hearts out in my opinion and we can build on this.
And for gods sake we were the second best team in the tournament. Not what I expected at the onset.
They had Sterling in chains with little chance of him breaking free.
They used ‘alternative’ methods to stop us that weren’t overly gamesmanship and they knew how far they could push it.
And then they got lucky with the pens.
On the night they deserved to win on balance, but we weren’t easy to break down.
Pickford was amazing, held his nerve at every juncture. The rest of the team played their hearts out in my opinion and we can build on this.
And for gods sake we were the second best team in the tournament. Not what I expected at the onset.
td53
Well-known member
https://mclfoot.blogspot.com/2021/07/dont-bother-england-vs-italy.html
The least enthusiastic blog I've ever done.
The least enthusiastic blog I've ever done.
Mark_GT
Well-known member
Lots of disappointed people heading north from London this morning. A few things:
We were outstanding for 20 mins but then Italy got the measure of us and largely dominated. The better team won.
Our penalty strategy was poor - theirs wasn't much better but they had just enough.
Wembley was a disgrace with a complete loss of control from the police and stewards and some absolutely disgusting behaviour on Wembley way. Nobheads throwing bottles when people are slow walking their kids through a crowd.
To balance that I've met some great people along the way.
Kate Moss wtf.
Overall we had a great tournament and it came down to fine margins in the end.
On to the next one
We were outstanding for 20 mins but then Italy got the measure of us and largely dominated. The better team won.
Our penalty strategy was poor - theirs wasn't much better but they had just enough.
Wembley was a disgrace with a complete loss of control from the police and stewards and some absolutely disgusting behaviour on Wembley way. Nobheads throwing bottles when people are slow walking their kids through a crowd.
To balance that I've met some great people along the way.
Kate Moss wtf.
Overall we had a great tournament and it came down to fine margins in the end.
On to the next one
voyeur
Well-known member
My overall feeling is that you have to balance up the positives and the negatives, acknowledge both, and learn and move on.
I was really impressed with a lot of things during the knock out phase, having been absolutely bored rigid in the group phase.
How well did our defenders play? Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, all had brilliant tournaments, albeit in a very defensive system. Hats off to them all.
Pickford too, hardly out a hand or foot out of place, and made a few top class saves when called upon. He's better than I thought.
Rice and Phillips grew into a very decent partnership. One that will hopefully get better yet, and Mount gained valuable experience. Sterling had an excellent tournament, and Kane came good after a terrible group stage.
On the minus side, we really need to develop the confidence to shift the balance a little at least towards attack. We had a one off opportunity to win a tournament with home advantage and we pulled everybody back, at 1-0, and the Italians only had Sterling's pace to deal with. 2-0 and it's game over. Rigid mindset, based on 25 years of fear, I think. Those chains need throwing away.
I was really impressed with a lot of things during the knock out phase, having been absolutely bored rigid in the group phase.
How well did our defenders play? Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, all had brilliant tournaments, albeit in a very defensive system. Hats off to them all.
Pickford too, hardly out a hand or foot out of place, and made a few top class saves when called upon. He's better than I thought.
Rice and Phillips grew into a very decent partnership. One that will hopefully get better yet, and Mount gained valuable experience. Sterling had an excellent tournament, and Kane came good after a terrible group stage.
On the minus side, we really need to develop the confidence to shift the balance a little at least towards attack. We had a one off opportunity to win a tournament with home advantage and we pulled everybody back, at 1-0, and the Italians only had Sterling's pace to deal with. 2-0 and it's game over. Rigid mindset, based on 25 years of fear, I think. Those chains need throwing away.
Lala
Well-known member
Yep to all that.Lots of disappointed people heading north from London this morning. A few things:
We were outstanding for 20 mins but then Italy got the measure of us and largely dominated. The better team won.
Our penalty strategy was poor - theirs wasn't much better but they had just enough.
Wembley was a disgrace with a complete loss of control from the police and stewards and some absolutely disgusting behaviour on Wembley way. Nobheads throwing bottles when people are slow walking their kids through a crowd.
To balance that I've met some great people along the way.
Kate Moss wtf.
Overall we had a great tournament and it came down to fine margins in the end.
On to the next one
Very disappointing to see some of our national fanbase behave like complete Neanderthals, again.
It runs deeper than just football fans. We need to get some morals and discipline back in this country. There seems to be a certain contingent that think that neither of these qualities are necessary and know they can get away with behaving like utter morons.
We need to stop pussyfooting around and instill some tough love to get some national dignity back.
As an aside , glad you enjoyed
OK, so we failed in the penalty shoot out.
I'm gutted, we're all gutted.
However it's not the end of the world as we know it.
All this abuse of Southgate and his players is dreadful, there really are some morons around.
Those players gave their all for the fans and we should recognise that, not hurl abuse at them.
Hopefully things will improve on the travel front soon.
Just had my mate in France on the phone, he said 'I hope you come over soon'.
So do I.
He's a Middlesboro fan and said that Southgate has told the owner that he'd like to go to M'Boro when he finishes at England.
Don't know how true that is.
I'm gutted, we're all gutted.
However it's not the end of the world as we know it.
All this abuse of Southgate and his players is dreadful, there really are some morons around.
Those players gave their all for the fans and we should recognise that, not hurl abuse at them.
Hopefully things will improve on the travel front soon.
Just had my mate in France on the phone, he said 'I hope you come over soon'.
So do I.
He's a Middlesboro fan and said that Southgate has told the owner that he'd like to go to M'Boro when he finishes at England.
Don't know how true that is.
GrahamwantshisOates
Well-known member
Lots of fans without tickets. Wembley Town centre was chaotic with Pissed up fans by 2pm.Many desperate fans scaling the walls attempting to get in the ground.
“ The Green man” pub was well organised only allowing walk ins who had a matchday ticket..
Very similar atmosphere to the Pool game in the pub grounds.
Just to make matters worse, Piers Morgan was sat a couple rows in front of me.
“ The Green man” pub was well organised only allowing walk ins who had a matchday ticket..
Very similar atmosphere to the Pool game in the pub grounds.
Just to make matters worse, Piers Morgan was sat a couple rows in front of me.
clappers
Well-known member
They were better at playing one twos in quick succession and moving the ball around infront of our penalty area, and one of their strikers looked real world class compared to ours but that’s about it. And of course taking penalties.
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
It's only like us on here LalaPontificating on Twitter . Lineker at his best
Everyone has an opinion
No doubt about it, some of our 'fans' make us the laughing stock of world football.
Wizzerboy
Well-known member
Couldn't agree with you more re the discipline statement.Yep to all that.
Very disappointing to see some of our national fanbase behave like complete Neanderthals, again.
It runs deeper than just football fans. We need to get some morals and discipline back in this country. There seems to be a certain contingent that think that neither of these qualities are necessary and know they can get away with behaving like utter morons.
We need to stop pussyfooting around and instill some tough love to get some national dignity back.
As an aside , glad you enjoyed
Unfortunately you have some call it child abuse so you end up with a society we have.
Sad innit
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
That’s because the kind of ‘discipline’ that so many seem to reminisce about was actually just abusive behaviour and nothing more than a lack of control and intellect.Couldn't agree with you more re the discipline statement.
Unfortunately you have some call it child abuse so you end up with a society we have.
Sad innit
The issue in this country isn’t discipline, because as we see, far more liberally minded countries do not suffer the same issues…
The issue we have is that we have too many Neanderthal types who fail to call shit out and stand up for what’s right….We need more role models like Gareth Southgate, Marcus Rashford etc..and less cnuts like Tommy Robinson, Nigel Farage and the like…
Ruperthoop
Well-known member
This is exactly what the problem is. Southgate is too defensive and cautious, frightened to make important decisions. One shot on target in 120 minutes and when you are at home with the best England squad i can ever recall is poor. The huge concern has to be that Southgate will not learn from this.
Mark_GT
Well-known member
Someone could have been killed or blinded last night. It was that bad in places. The internet was non existant too so most wouldn't have been able to have their covid status verified, which was supposed to be mandatory to enter the ground. All that the powers that be needed to ensure we don't get another home tournament for a very long time.
Keane can say what he likes but the pictures clearly show that Southgate had prepared his list and was informing players who would be taking penalties and in what order. Southgate had his list prepared as the final whistle went.
Attachments
straightatthewall
Well-known member
It is easy, but it's no different to what we're doing as 'normal' supporters. Lineker is a supporter who happens to have scored loads of goals for England...
The reality is, for England to go one step further we do need to work out how we get more out of our creative players whilst not sacrificing the defensive base. That's not a criticism of Southgate, he's done a great job so far in getting us here and creating a squad that is young AND wants to be part of the England set up. The next improvements (or attempts to improve) are just a reality for him and his staff to keep working on.
As a couple of examples, Kyle Walker has been fantastic defensively but he's nowhere near the footballer that Alexander-Arnold is. T A-A is nowhere near the defender Walker is, but perhaps last night his ability to play and pass could have helped us when we were being overwhelmed in that middle third of the game?
Then we have Sterling. As absurd as it might sound, his success this tournament may have been a double edged sword. We can see his strengths and he has a role to play, but he's not a player that is always going to create in tight spaces and I see technical limitations in his game that at 26 aren't going to be resolved. But him playing means players like Grealish and Foden don't. I see more players like those 2 making the difference at international level than speedsters like Sterling. But if you set up looking to be tight, compact and hitting teams on the break, then pace is vital.
Final point, is the midfield axis. R&P have been solid and won fans, but R in particular gives the ball away too much. It's the same with Henderson; you want them in the engine room, but a long way from the creative hub. Is there anyone who can come in and provide the balance between solidity and footballing ability? The David Vaughan type who is more than a Keith Southern, but not a Charlie Adam...
As I say, none of this is meant as criticism of GS. It's just where I see where progress is needed and it stands to reason that others will have their view too. One thing is certain in my mind, the deficiencies that saw us lose to Croatia have only been partially removed 3 years on. Much of that is down to personnel rather than poor coaching, but it's the coaches job to find a way. Providing we qualify, he'll get another crack in just over 15 months time, he deserves the chance to keep trying to improve us for the WC.
20togo
Well-known member
I'm not sure how Southgate could justify picking Mount in the position he did when he had so many other players better suited to that role. I don't blame Mount but he was pretty anonymous for the WHOLE game.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Southgate's fault like everything else.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Yep. Immaterial for this tournament, but longer term it's the sort of thing he'll be having to think about.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Mount was pretty anonymous for the WHOLE tournament if we're being honest. Finished the season so well for Chelsea, but had many fresh air games. He was picked because he's seen as more reliable defensively. The midfield is the area we can improve on the most/the area that most needs improving. Teams that win, tend to be strong there and for me, we're still weak in that area when compared to other countries.
td53
Well-known member
I think it basically boils down to the same thing it always does. We don't have a world class central midfielder.
Rice, Phillips, Henderson and even Mount are really functional. Really, really good players, with varying degrees of attacking strengths. But there just isn't that magic in them. That ability to send the entire defence the wrong way with a pass no one saw or to hit it first time blind, to somehow evade their marker even though they don't visibly appear to be trying that hard.
It's probably down to something like the speed we play at, even though it's all fancy continental style coaches, we still venerate effort about everything and we don't see that strolling passer very often at any level in our game.
I think the way Italy were able to dictate the game after about 30 mins was down to central midfield and you can piss about as much as you like, do we have a world class English creative midfielder? When did we last have one?
We've got loads of Matty Virtues and we always do.
Cagey
Well-known member
We had one shot on target in 90 minutes of normal time . Our first sub came on in 70 th minute . GS should have freshened it up earlier .
It looks like the policy of substitutions in the last minute to take penalties doesn't work .
i wish we could drop “its coming home” its becoming a jinx .
We played great against Germany and at least we got to the final .
Social media needs regulating its poison .
It looks like the policy of substitutions in the last minute to take penalties doesn't work .
i wish we could drop “its coming home” its becoming a jinx .
We played great against Germany and at least we got to the final .
Social media needs regulating its poison .
PdxTangerine
Well-known member
Doesn't seem wise to me for the manager to pre-select the penalty takers based on what he's observed in training, especially when it involves bringing them on in the last seconds of the game. Would prefer to go with those who are "feeling it" in the moment and self-select.
Hope the Saka kid isn't too emotionally scarred, he looked distraught at the end.
Back to the real football now, I predict our tangerine wizards will set things right with a glorious 3-1 win in the Bristol sunshine.
Hope the Saka kid isn't too emotionally scarred, he looked distraught at the end.
Back to the real football now, I predict our tangerine wizards will set things right with a glorious 3-1 win in the Bristol sunshine.
voyeur
Well-known member
I agree, and it probably caused Southgate to worry, and stick to caution and strong defence. Not that he needs much self encouragement.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Yep - just said much the same a couple of posts above.
20togo
Well-known member
Best post of the whole Euros that straiters.
As you say why shouldn't Lineker have his say. He's a fan like us and he's much more than that as well. Agree about TTA too but would Southgate have given him much game time? Not so sure. And your key point is about Sterling. Technically in tight spaces he comes up well short. Blistering pace one on one but when it requires better ball control when surrounded by two or three defenders he's not good enough. And that has always been the case and is why Italy comfortably coped with him last night. He's had a good successful lengthy spell scoring plenty of goals but their are flaws to his game and as you say at 26 they aren't gonna be resolved.
Rice for me probably had his best game of the tournament last night but at this point in time him and Phillips are a long way from being the dominant defensive foundation that we need.
And one more on Southgate. So far in this tournament he's been pretty pro-active. Last night wasn't the case. It was puzzling to see his failure to re-act to what seemed obvious what needed to be done.
Blackpool_Gaz
Well-known member
It certainly looks like it.
JohnnyEire
Well-known member
Commiserations to all English folk on here. I'd never admit it publicly back home in Ireland but I have a soft spot for this English team and wouldn't have been annoyed one bit if ye won the game. I think that the age profile of your squad is really positive and silverware isn't far off the horizon.