England v Iceland

Wizaard said:
I'm saying the academies haven't done anything yet, so very much a case of youthful promise potentially going nowhere because of lack of opportunities.
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Ha ha, I'd say most of last nights team came thru the Academy system. The EPL's academy teams producing players for the National team. Who'd have thought it? Not Wiz apparently.
 
20togo said:
Of course there are, who is saying there aren't. But we're ranked no 4. And once again it's the derogatory comment in the way you use muster.
All your comments are negative. You enjoy it.
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Utter nonsense. You're just saying that if anyone doesn't support everything you say without question, then they're negative.

I'm saying that the England team won't win things unless the structure of power is fundamentally changed. Apparently questioning it is negative.

The way football is going, you'll be back in a couple of years to say that the European Super League is a real step forward and a boon for the national team.
 
20togo said:
Ha ha, I'd say most of last nights team came thru the Academy system. The EPL's academy teams producing players for the National team. Who'd have thought it? Not Wiz apparently.
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And are we winning things? 20s seems to think so as everything is fine
 
Wizaard said:
Utter nonsense. You're just saying that if anyone doesn't support everything you say without question, then they're negative.

I'm saying that the England team won't win things unless the structure of power is fundamentally changed. Apparently questioning it is negative.

The way football is going, you'll be back in a couple of years to say that the European Super League is a real step forward and a boon for the national team.
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You really are not very good at recalling what I've said. Totally against the ESL.
 
Wizaard said:
And are we winning things? 20s seems to think so as everything is fine
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Very few teams win anything Wiz. Go and look at the great Dutch team of the 70's and then the 80's. Just one trophy. We've no divine right to win anything yet your attitude seems to think we should.
 
20togo said:
Very few teams win anything Wiz. Go and look at the great Dutch team of the 70's and then the 80's. Just one trophy. We've no divine right to win anything yet your attitude seems to think we should.
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We don't get to finals. The Dutch were in the 2010 final for starters.
 
basilrobbie said:
I don't think the analogy is that much of a stretch, and I did say it was inexact. It's the slavish love of a form of football that has little to do with reality that I was driving at.

As for NFL. Yes, I post about it (occasionally), and I enjoy it. That doesn't mean I am blind to the fact that it wouldn't work culturally over here. But I do admire it as a genuine competition, with a structure that promotes parity, that also manages to raise many, many millions of dollars for good causes, every year. There, any similarity with the EPL ends. And I'm not posting on here to demand that everyone loves it in precisely the same manner that I do.

As for passionate posting on here about football ; been there, done that, had more T-shirts than many posters on AVFTT have had hot dinners. I find it highly amusing that people want to criticise me for not doing it this season when they were quick to rubbish me because I was doing it before. 😀

I'm not sure where this chip on my shoulder is. What exactly am I supposed to be feeling resentful about?
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Is that the structure which allows mega millionaire owners to move teams from one city to another hundreds if not thousands of miles away. That's great for the fans eh! And I've never criticised you for posting about Blackpool. Far from it.
 
basilrobbie said:
I'm not sure where this chip on my shoulder is. What exactly am I supposed to be feeling resentful about?
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Where do I start???
EPL , probably the championship as well. The England team , Sky, people who have sky, England players who point to the sky in tribute to a lost parent, great busted flush midfielders and that's just scratching the surface ....😋
 
PNENIL said:
If the EPL isn't the elite then which league is? Or are you talking about English players in the EPL?
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The German league, the Spanish league for starters. Their top clubs are better than ours. There's an argument about depth, admittedly, but European results over the last few years and indeed, England results, show us falling short.

And you're right. The best players at our top clubs aren't English.
 
I try to avoid personal criticism but I have to make an exception in 20`s case.He is an opinionated argumentative intransigent humourless knowall, quite incapable of ever recognising that he could possibly be wrong and is at times personally offensive to those including myself who disagree with him. His comments about the winning tips I have posted on here, which I have quickly shown to be utter bollux with 5 of my last 6 tips on here being winners producing a good profit for a number of posters on here, are yet another example of the type of man he is.

Friendly debate is what this site should be all about but not in 20`s case and as a result he lowers the tone and spoils the enjoyment of what is generally an excellent site.

P.S. 20`s you`ll be delighted to know that I`ve just backed and watched another winner, only at evens my only bet today, but a winner`s a winner though due to your nasty unfounded comments I no longer post them on here.
 
PNENIL said:
Where do I start???
EPL , probably the championship as well. The England team , Sky, people who have sky, England players who point to the sky in tribute to a lost parent, great busted flush midfielders and that's just scratching the surface ....😋
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That's not resentment. It's a keen eye for weakness and a sense of the ridiculous. 😀
 
Wizaard said:
The German league, the Spanish league for starters. Their top clubs are better than ours. There's an argument about depth, admittedly, but European results over the last few years and indeed, England results, show us falling short.

And you're right. The best players at our top clubs aren't English.
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Some best players at our top clubs are English . Sterling and Kane for a start. Hendersons just captained a champions league and premier league winning side. Other players are coming through. Your argument would have been valid 5 years ago but things are changing. The academies are reaping rewards and there are a lot more good young English players coming through and its giving Southgate more options.
Just saying the spanish and german league doesnt wash. The EFL can more than compete with those two and are much stronger in depth. The viewing figures round the world back that up as well.
 
Wizaard said:
The German league, the Spanish league for starters. Their top clubs are better than ours. There's an argument about depth, admittedly, but European results over the last few years and indeed, England results, show us falling short.

And you're right. The best players at our top clubs aren't English.
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Leagues are more than just about the best club or two best clubs. It's about the competition throughout the division but you acknowledge that. PSG are the best team in France, the rest get nowhere really in the later stages of Champions League. Same with Bayern, who else in the Bundesliga gets to the semis and beyond. Same with Juve in Italy. Who else there? Spain -Barcelona fall at so many early hurdles, only Real have shown themselves at the top level. Overall, think we more than hold our own.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
I try to avoid personal criticism but I have to make an exception in 20`s case.He is an opinionated argumentative intransigent humourless knowall, quite incapable of ever recognising that he could possibly be wrong and is at times personally offensive to those including myself who disagree with him. His comments about the winning tips I have posted on here, which I have quickly shown to be utter bollux with 5 of my last 6 tips on here being winners producing a good profit for a number of posters on here, are yet another example of the type of man he is.

Friendly debate is what this site should be all about but not in 20`s case and as a result he lowers the tone and spoils the enjoyment of what is generally an excellent site.

P.S. 20`s you`ll be delighted to know that I`ve just backed and watched another winner, only at evens my only bet today, but a winner`s a winner though due to your nasty unfounded comments I no longer post them on here.
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Perhaps you could stick to horse racing. I like how you name drop some-one most on here will never have heard of.
 
Blimey, what a thread.

20's REALLY wants England to win. Wiz has lost his mojo for England.
Robbie hates the Premier League and all it's razzamatazz. Robbie loves the earthy realism of the NFL.
Some say Robbie has a chip on his shoulder. Robbie says he ate it.
1950's is a champion tipster. The proof is in the fact he tells us about it after he's won.
It's ridiculous to get excited by a one-off win in a meaningless contrived competition. It's fair game to criticize the players for not caring about a meaningless contrived competition.

Have i missed anything?
 
straightatthewall said:
Blimey, what a thread.

20's REALLY wants England to win. Wiz has lost his mojo for England.
Robbie hates the Premier League and all it's razzamatazz. Robbie loves the earthy realism of the NFL.
Some say Robbie has a chip on his shoulder. Robbie says he ate it.
1950's is a champion tipster. The proof is in the fact he tells us about it after he's won.
It's ridiculous to get excited by a one-off win in a meaningless contrived competition. It's fair game to criticize the players for not caring about a meaningless contrived competition.

Have i missed anything?
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Very good. I find myself wishing I had a chip on both shoulders now.
 
straightatthewall said:
Blimey, what a thread.

20's REALLY wants England to win. Wiz has lost his mojo for England.
Robbie hates the Premier League and all it's razzamatazz. Robbie loves the earthy realism of the NFL.
Some say Robbie has a chip on his shoulder. Robbie says he ate it.
1950's is a champion tipster. The proof is in the fact he tells us about it after he's won.
It's ridiculous to get excited by a one-off win in a meaningless contrived competition. It's fair game to criticize the players for not caring about a meaningless contrived competition.

Have i missed anything?
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Give me five minutes and I'll come up with something. 😉
 
20togo said:
Leagues are more than just about the best club or two best clubs. It's about the competition throughout the division but you acknowledge that. PSG are the best team in France, the rest get nowhere really in the later stages of Champions League. Same with Bayern, who else in the Bundesliga gets to the semis and beyond. Same with Juve in Italy. Who else there? Spain -Barcelona fall at so many early hurdles, only Real have shown themselves at the top level. Overall, think we more than hold our own.
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We've sold the League as being strength in depth, but really there's a league of maybe 6 at a push and the rest scrambling to avoid a really bad season and getting relegated. The ambition is limited to staying in the Division, not challenging at the top end.
 
Wizaard said:
We've sold the League as being strength in depth, but really there's a league of maybe 6 at a push and the rest scrambling to avoid a really bad season and getting relegated. The ambition is limited to staying in the Division, not challenging at the top end.
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6 at a push is 3 (at a push) more than Spain and 4 (at a push) more than Germany.
I'm not going to pretend that the EPL isn't overhyped in terms of it's true quality, but every league in the real football world (Europe and South America) has a small number of dominant clubs. They're usually based round the biggest cities and they usually have the biggest fan-base too.
Leicester winning the PL was a once in a blue moon event, but it wouldn't happen at all anywhere else.
 
Wizaard said:
We've sold the League as being strength in depth, but really there's a league of maybe 6 at a push and the rest scrambling to avoid a really bad season and getting relegated. The ambition is limited to staying in the Division, not challenging at the top end.
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What league anywhere has most of it challenging for the top end? That doesn't make sense. The fact that 6 clubs could possibly make a challenge at the top lifts it above most leagues in europe.
On a viewing perspective I think it's unique in the amount of interest in who goes down and that rightly or wrongly is because of the amount of money swilling around . It makes it life or death for clubs to stay up and that's compelling.
I still think an obvious solution is to scrap parachute payments and spread those over the whole EFL .Surely that's far better than bail outs and hand outs and it could happen every season. More income for everybody else and making the bottom of the prem even more watchable in that relegation would hit even harder. Level playing field in the championship. It's win win win. Although the massive and Forest would still struggle to get promoted 😀
 
Wizaard said:
We've sold the League as being strength in depth, but really there's a league of maybe 6 at a push and the rest scrambling to avoid a really bad season and getting relegated. The ambition is limited to staying in the Division, not challenging at the top end.
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Straiters nails it. And just to add that after those six there's another very good perhaps six teams competing for the Europa League. You can't seriously tell me the likes of Wolves and Leicester are looking over their shoulders at the relegation zone. Add in Everton and how they've greatly strengthened their team and squad and it makes for a very competitive League. That's nine teams. And Southampton have made a great start this season too. In fact I'd suggest that there's only about half a dozen teams at most who are threatened with relegation.

The EPL the best and most competitive league around.
 
straightatthewall said:
Blimey, what a thread.

20's REALLY wants England to win. Wiz has lost his mojo for England.
Robbie hates the Premier League and all it's razzamatazz. Robbie loves the earthy realism of the NFL.
Some say Robbie has a chip on his shoulder. Robbie says he ate it.
1950's is a champion tipster. The proof is in the fact he tells us about it after he's won.
It's ridiculous to get excited by a one-off win in a meaningless contrived competition. It's fair game to criticize the players for not caring about a meaningless contrived competition.

Have i missed anything?
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Yep you`ve missed the simple fact that of my last 6 tips posted on here between the 28th Feb and 4th March WELL BEFORE any of them ran 5 of them won and one lost.Several came on here and thanked me and HighfieldSeasider said he had a £2.50 ew treble on the first 3 ,forget about his bet till the next day when he went on his account to discover he had won around £115 on that bet.

I just like to get the facts right on here .......unlike some who it seems prefer not to if it doesn`t happen to fit their agenda.
 
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1950`spoolfan said:
Yep you`ve missed the simple fact of my last 6 tips posted on here between the 28th Feb and 4th March WELL BEFORE any of them ran 5 of them won and one lost.Several came on here and thanked me and HighfieldSeasider said he had a £2.50 ew treble on the first 3 ,forget about his bet till the next day when he went on his account to discover he had won around £115 on that bet.

I just like to get the facts right on here .......unlike some who it seems prefer not to it it doesn`t fit their agenda.
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Congratulations.
 
Rektseasider said:
There used to be a time where I’d look for when the games were and look forward to watching England.

I didn’t even realise they were playing tonight and they same can be said for the last two games and only stumbled upon them as I was flicking through the tv.

The 15 minutes or so that I watched just confirmed why I’ve lost all interest in the national team. Truly dreadful to watch.

I don’t think I’m the only one like this, so, where did it all go wrong?
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Call me racist if you wish, too many foreigners in the English Leagues, and so not enough of
our own players get used to playing at higher levels, therefore there is a limited pool of quality to select from. They should be limited as in other sports.
 
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EagleDay said:
Call me racist if you wish, too many foreigners in the English Leagues, and so not enough of
our own players get used to playing at higher levels, therefore there is a limited pool of quality to select from. They should be limited as in other sports.
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I've been making exactly that point but 20s is saying it helps the England team. Go figure. Nor is it racist.
 
Wizaard said:
I've been making exactly that point but 20s is saying it helps the England team. Go figure. Nor is it racist.
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I'm not sure I quite said that at all. You fail to accept that football is evolving and in terms of movement the world is a much smaller place. English football has the money to attract players both young and old from all over the globe. Are you suggesting players shouldn't be allowed to come and ply their trade here. Just a thought- maybe you should have been a Brexiteer- it might strengthen your case. As I pointed out to you, the EPL academies are thriving and plenty of English players are coming thru the ranks and making first team and squads now.Something you disputed. Do you need me to go thru last nights squad to point out which players had. And of course then there's the current injured players like TTA and Gomez. You so easily dismiss them but then perhaps not being an England or EPL fan begs the question have you heard of them? 😉
I'll assume you've heard of Rashford but maybe that's only because of his kids meal profile. And maybe Sterling for his profile on BLM. 😀
 
20togo said:
I'm not sure I quite said that at all. You fail to accept that football is evolving and in terms of movement the world is a much smaller place. English football has the money to attract players both young and old from all over the globe. Are you suggesting players shouldn't be allowed to come and ply their trade here. Just a thought- maybe you should have been a Brexiteer- it might strengthen your case. As I pointed out to you, the EPL academies are thriving and plenty of English players are coming thru the ranks and making first team and squads now.Something you disputed. Do you need me to go thru last nights squad to point out which players had. And of course then there's the current injured players like TTA and Gomez. You so easily dismiss them but then perhaps not being an England or EPL fan begs the question have you heard of them? 😉
I'll assume you've heard of Rashford but maybe that's only because of his kids meal profile. And maybe Sterling for his profile on BLM. 😀
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And you were an expert on Sako because he plays for a club that you take a real interest in, of course. With me not knowing much Arsenal and Spurs are much the same? In a way they are. Neither will ever win the Premier League again although again is a moot point for one
 
Wizaard said:
And you were an expert on Sako because he plays for a club that you take a real interest in, of course. With me not knowing much Arsenal and Spurs are much the same? In a way they are. Neither will ever win the Premier League again although again is a moot point for one
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Hahaha 👍
 
PNENIL said:
Hendersons just captained a champions league and premier league winning side.
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Maybe so, but he is still a bang average player that is lucky to play in a holding position that has no real competition both at club and International level.

If people think he is one of the best/better England players, I truly despair and have to question the football knowledge of individuals.
 
Bend it like Suddick said:
Maybe so, but he is still a bang average player that is lucky to play in a holding position that has no real competition both at club and International level.

If people think he is one of the best/better England players, I truly despair and have to question the football knowledge of individuals.
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You should have used a cricketing analogy if you were of a certain age and called him another Mike Brierley!
I take your point but your over egging it a bit.
 
PNENIL said:
You should have used a cricketing analogy if you were of a certain age and called him another Mike Brierley!
I take your point but your over egging it a bit.
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No Brearley was a great captain in a sport where captaincy really matters.Not sure how good a captain Hendo is but either way it`s not nearly as important in football.
 
Find it so hypocritical that so many people want to criticise the EPL but I reckon most of them wouldn't mind us getting back there. And I would bet Simon Sadler would love us to get there. The financial rewards are staggering yet people on here want to turn their noses up at it. Rewards which certainly under Sadler eould benfit the club and the community enormously. I also reckon the fans of all the current EPL clubs would love to stay in there. Go and ask Burnley, Sheff U, Fulham, WBA fans if they'd prefer the Championship or to stay in the EPL and i reckon the overwhelming majority would answer the EPL. Same with all those clubs in the Championship. Are people seriously trying to tell me that the fans of those clubs don't want to go up? It's brilliant how we can taunt the Nobbers with Premier Never Ever and I bet there isn't a nobber out there who doesn't want to shut us up by them getting there..

There's some real inverted snobbery amongst our fans, that's for sure.
 
20togo said:
Find it so hypocritical that so many people want to criticise the EPL but I reckon most of them wouldn't mind us getting back there. And I would bet Simon Sadler would love us to get there. The financial rewards are staggering yet people on here want to turn their noses up at it. Rewards which certainly under Sadler eould benfit the club and the community enormously. I also reckon the fans of all the current EPL clubs would love to stay in there. Go and ask Burnley, Sheff U, Fulham, WBA fans if they'd prefer the Championship or to stay in the EPL and i reckon the overwhelming majority would answer the EPL. Same with all those clubs in the Championship. Are people seriously trying to tell me that the fans of those clubs don't want to go up? It's brilliant how we can taunt the Nobbers with Premier Never Ever and I bet there isn't a nobber out there who doesn't want to shut us up by them getting there..

There's some real inverted snobbery amongst our fans, that's for sure.
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I agree with your last sentence, to an extent. I enjoy a bit of inversion myself.

However, the rest of that is absolute bobbins. What people criticise is the grip that the EPL has over the game as a whole, the greed of some of the clubs at the very top and the way that broadcasters and football authorities have either colluded or acquiesced in the power grab that the EPL is responsible for.

You seem completely incapable of distinguishing between the quality of the on-field product (debatable) and the way that the EPL conducts itself away from it (very questionable). And I noticed that you carefully chose three (plus Burnley) clubs who bounce between Divisions to make your argument.

I'm not sure that fans of (for example) Crystal Palace, Brighton or Newcastle are thrilled to see their side mounting a battle not to be in the bottom three season after season. It's not what I would call a fulfilling existence. And the fact that this is what being in the top Division is really like for many of its Members just demonstrates to me that there is something very badly wrong with the whole edifice. There was a time not so long ago when a middling club from the Midlands could scrape promotion from Division 2 and then, with good coaching and shrewd investment, go on immediately to be champions of England and Europe. That dream has been snuffed out since 1992.
 
20togo said:
Find it so hypocritical that so many people want to criticise the EPL but I reckon most of them wouldn't mind us getting back there. And I would bet Simon Sadler would love us to get there. The financial rewards are staggering yet people on here want to turn their noses up at it. Rewards which certainly under Sadler eould benfit the club and the community enormously. I also reckon the fans of all the current EPL clubs would love to stay in there. Go and ask Burnley, Sheff U, Fulham, WBA fans if they'd prefer the Championship or to stay in the EPL and i reckon the overwhelming majority would answer the EPL. Same with all those clubs in the Championship. Are people seriously trying to tell me that the fans of those clubs don't want to go up? It's brilliant how we can taunt the Nobbers with Premier Never Ever and I bet there isn't a nobber out there who doesn't want to shut us up by them getting there..

There's some real inverted snobbery amongst our fans, that's for sure.
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I know a few Burnley fans who prefer being competitive in the Championship to scrambling for 17th place in the Premier League. But you carry on putting down your own opinions as fact.
 
Whilst I agree that the top clubs are very dominant these days in the EPL, the top 6 in this country are generally made up of the same clubs every year and the wealthiest stay there , but even that is a wider spread than you get in for example Spain or Germany.

However greed in football is of course rife amongst the top clubs in this country but unfortunately that`s the wider picture, it`s human nature generally ,`twas ever thus. Whether there is a way to ensure a more equitable spread of wealth in football with sufficient goodwill and the power to enforce it I`m not so sure.

I fear those unhealthy human characteristics of greed, self interest and the attitude of what we have we hold will continue to dominate in the English game as elsewhere at the expense of those further down the ladder which will surely be to the long term detriment of the pyramid of the game as a whole in this country.

I`m not sure that the government could step in ,this is not an authoritarian state but will the threat of extinction of some smaller clubs clubs in this unprecedented Covid crisis finally alert the haves in football to help save the have nots from disappearing forever? I would like to think so but I`m not holding my breath.
 
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basilrobbie said:
I agree with your last sentence, to an extent. I enjoy a bit of inversion myself.

However, the rest of that is absolute bobbins. What people criticise is the grip that the EPL has over the game as a whole, the greed of some of the clubs at the very top and the way that broadcasters and football authorities have either colluded or acquiesced in the power grab that the EPL is responsible for.

You seem completely incapable of distinguishing between the quality of the on-field product (debatable) and the way that the EPL conducts itself away from it (very questionable). And I noticed that you carefully chose three (plus Burnley) clubs who bounce between Divisions to make your argument.

I'm not sure that fans of (for example) Crystal Palace, Brighton or Newcastle are thrilled to see their side mounting a battle not to be in the bottom three season after season. It's not what I would call a fulfilling existence. And the fact that this is what being in the top Division is really like for many of its Members just demonstrates to me that there is something very badly wrong with the whole edifice. There was a time not so long ago when a middling club from the Midlands could scrape promotion from Division 2 and then, with good coaching and shrewd investment, go on immediately to be champions of England and Europe. That dream has been snuffed out since 1992.
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I'm afraid 20's is correct and it's dinosaurs like yourself(no offence) who are always
harping on about the past, go and ask anyone under 40 what they think of the PL they bloody love it, all they talk/watch/gamble about.
 
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