PNENIL
Well-known member
Leicester seemed to do ok by being certs for relegation the season before and then winning the Premiership. Their dream wasn't snuffed out.
England v Iceland
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20togo
Well-known member
1, Burnley are currently on their fifth consecutive season in the EPL That's a fact. How do you describe that "bounce"?
2. And if my memory serves me well there was a "middling team from the Midlands" called Leicester who scraped promotion and then with good coaching and shrewd investment went on to be champions of England. Yep, if my memory serves me right that was after 1992. Think that's a fact as well. No dream snuffed out for their fans eh! And they had a pretty decent campaign in the Champions League too. I'm not sure you can quote me a similar story from the rest of the big European leagues can you?
No bobbins form me Robbie, that's just your domain.
I would also say that I believe but am not certain that you've said you've no desire for Blackpool to get back to the EPL. And there are others who've said that. And I'm supposed to feel bad for wanting the best for my team .
Like I said, it's my view that a massive overwhelming majority of any PL club you wish to name would prefer to stay in that division. I laugh at your quote of Newcastle. It's oft been said of their fans that they have delusions of grandeur, thinking they are bigger than they are. Well if that's the case, then I'm sure they'd be rather aiming upwards than looking over their shoulder. They want to be at the top.
Oh and Wiz, you know a few Burnley fans. It proves nothing. .Are you seriously suggesting their fans go to games hoping to get beat so they can go down to the Championship because that is in effect what you're saying. A handful maybe, and I mean a handful. 99.9% of the others - not a chance.
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PNENIL
Well-known member
Just to point out Leicester were also in League 1 , got promoted and won the Premiership within 6 years.
As for lower premiership club fans wishing they were rather in the Championship is laughable. What the fans of those clubs moan about is wanting their owners to spend even more amounts of money to keep them in the premiership.
As for lower premiership club fans wishing they were rather in the Championship is laughable. What the fans of those clubs moan about is wanting their owners to spend even more amounts of money to keep them in the premiership.
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basilrobbie
Guest
1. I said three "bounce" teams plus Burnley. Read it properly.
2. My point was about a side who achieved that feat in consecutive seasons. Leicester were a reasonably well established EPL side who also had an Asian millionaire behind them. Not really the same, and also, since 1992, a genuine one-off. I'm talking about a period when clubs like Nottingham Forest and Derby could aspire to being champions and make it on the back of ability, rather than money. Sky money has changed the game, and not necessarily for the better. I wouldn't expect a TV aficionado like yourself to agree, but it is a valid opinion.
On Newcastle - you're answering a point I didn't make, or even try to. Newcastle fans may be many things, but I was talking about how they must feel following a club that exists to survive in the Division, in the main. You completely failed to address that.
On us - yes, I do want us to play in the EPL, I want us to do as well as possible. I'm a Blackpool fan. But wanting the club to succeed and reach the EPL doesn't mean that I can't be very critical of that League and what it represents. The two are not mutually exclusive, unless you live in the binary world you appear to inhabit.
1950`spoolfan
Well-known member
To be fair Leicester were 1000/1 when they won it and it may be 100 or even 1000 years before a club like them win it again.
I do agree that every club would love to get in the Prem so that they could get their snouts in the trough but in the lower leagues for many it just won`t happen. Mind you for years before 2010 I never thought we would ever get back to the top division so clubs like Rochdale and Accrington Stanley should never give up hope.
I do agree that every club would love to get in the Prem so that they could get their snouts in the trough but in the lower leagues for many it just won`t happen. Mind you for years before 2010 I never thought we would ever get back to the top division so clubs like Rochdale and Accrington Stanley should never give up hope.
20togo
Well-known member
1. Yes, I did read it properly at the time and understood your point. So yep, that comment of mine is not appropriate to them.
2. No not having that for two reasons. I think it very reasonable to compare Leicesters achievements to those of Forest. It will never be the same but your point is pretty much about decrying the PL and Leicester for what they achieved. The second part of this point tells you why. Your own words were that Leicester were a reasonably well established EPL side. Oh no they weren't. Go and have a look at when they were last in the EPL in the season prior to the season they won it! It was over ten years back to 2003/2004. Anything but an established EPL club wouldn't you say? In fact, I'd say that because of the money around the EPL that strengthens the point of what Leicester managed to achieve.
3 Yes, I did address it. They feel and have this false belief that they should be higher. Sure, their hopes are dashed but that's what they believe. I doubt too many of them think that every season is a relegation battle.
On us, I'm glad you say that. And on me, I've acknowledged previously that there are problems. I've acknowledged that there needs to be a fbetter re-distribution of wealth. I accept all that. But the EPL is a great product enjoyed by millions of people worldwide. Why is that? Because it's got great players and great teams playing great football. Football is so much better now than days gone by when one of of the most famous songs was 1-0 to the Arsenal.
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basilrobbie
Guest
Thanks for acknowledging the Burnley point. You have a point about Leicester too, albeit I think we are making slightly different points.
I think the last point is where we really differ. I struggle to just watch the football and not see the rotten edifice that underpins it. And to be honest, I am not wholly convinced it is as good as you feel it is. If it was, then MOTD wouldn't be one third action and two thirds analysis, in my view.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Just looking at the data.
EPL has been around for 28 seasons. In that time 7 clubs have won it. Of those 7, Man Utd won 13 times out of 28.
Compare to the last 28 seasons of old Div 1. In that time 10 clubs won it. Of those 10, Liverpool won 13.
So in both eras one club has dominated.
It's also interesting to recall that the club who has dominated the EPL era went 25 seasons without winning a title.
The club who dominated the Div 1 era went 29 seasons without winning a title.
So in both cases once the dominance was over the all-conquering club went through a barren patch that lasted for at least one generation of supporters.
Across 56 seasons:
1 of 2 clubs from Manchester has won the top league 20 times
1 of 2 clubs from Liverpool has won the top league 16 times
1 of several clubs from London has won the top league 11 times
Big city clubs dominate the situation and if you calculate the number of professional clubs by population of the metropolitan area they 'represent' then Manchester comes out on top (over 1 million people per club) and Liverpool is second (700,000 people per club). London is split because of the huge number of clubs in the capital (something that is not replicated anywhere around the world as far as I know).
So i don't see anything within the 'data' that implies to me that the EPL has significantly changed the domestic footballing landscape in this country. The big city clubs were winning most of the time anyway. If you go back to the post-war era, they won 11 out of 17 titles and once the minimum wage for players was abolished in 61, they won the next 3 out of 4.
Seems to me that clubs have as much chance of performing a miracle now as they did then....
Also seems to me that I really need a holiday.
EPL has been around for 28 seasons. In that time 7 clubs have won it. Of those 7, Man Utd won 13 times out of 28.
Compare to the last 28 seasons of old Div 1. In that time 10 clubs won it. Of those 10, Liverpool won 13.
So in both eras one club has dominated.
It's also interesting to recall that the club who has dominated the EPL era went 25 seasons without winning a title.
The club who dominated the Div 1 era went 29 seasons without winning a title.
So in both cases once the dominance was over the all-conquering club went through a barren patch that lasted for at least one generation of supporters.
Across 56 seasons:
1 of 2 clubs from Manchester has won the top league 20 times
1 of 2 clubs from Liverpool has won the top league 16 times
1 of several clubs from London has won the top league 11 times
Big city clubs dominate the situation and if you calculate the number of professional clubs by population of the metropolitan area they 'represent' then Manchester comes out on top (over 1 million people per club) and Liverpool is second (700,000 people per club). London is split because of the huge number of clubs in the capital (something that is not replicated anywhere around the world as far as I know).
So i don't see anything within the 'data' that implies to me that the EPL has significantly changed the domestic footballing landscape in this country. The big city clubs were winning most of the time anyway. If you go back to the post-war era, they won 11 out of 17 titles and once the minimum wage for players was abolished in 61, they won the next 3 out of 4.
Seems to me that clubs have as much chance of performing a miracle now as they did then....
Also seems to me that I really need a holiday.
20togo
Well-known member
I'll be honest, I always am, I barely watch MOTD these days. With the advent of Sky and BT I often see all the action prior to it. Plus saturday is a day I like to go to the pub after the game [around 17:00] so I'm often falling asleep by then.
20togo
Well-known member
A good post straiters.
I'll add one point to it. That prior to the EPL being formed the big clubs you refer to were also the richest clubs too. They were the clubs spending the most money on players and wages. So yep, what has really changed.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Spurs v Man City.Jeez, I set the bait and you bit.
Right then. Your first para. If you watched a bit more PL football then you'd realise who these players are and be able to relate to them. AsI said earlier, I'm a football fan. I don't just restrict myself to BFC, I watch all football and I love the PL and the hugely talented players in there. I love the game of football itself. So yep, that helps me know about players and helps when I come to watch England. Too many imo want to put the game down but not for actual football reasons.
Your next point re "fast tracking talent". This was the point I did agree on to a certain extent. Way too many given an opportunity too soon. Obvious ones such as Hudson-Odoi, Loftus-Cheek, Kalvin Phillips and there will be more. I'd even put Sancho in the list too. Is there a case to be made that it could do some more harm than good. I think so.
The national team is not a side show. Many fans care about their national team and more importantly the players do too. Go and tell someone like Grealish who has been desperate to play for his country that playing for England is a side-show. Your comment is utter nonsense. You say it because you yourself only get an interest when we are either doing well or a major tournament comes around. I've been on this message board for years and certainly recall some of your posts and apathy towards the national team. Yeah of course, I wouldn't be able to find them but if you're honest with yourself you'll know what I've said is true. And yes, I know you've followed England abroad but more recently you've become far more apathetic to them.
Your last point. Well we got to the semi final at the last World Cup, we got to the Nations League finals which is basically a final for the elite of football. Remember we had to beat Spain in our group to get there, so yep that's success, it's a pretty decent achievement. I'd say it's doing well and we weren't hindered solely because the so called best players in the PL weren't/aren't English.
There you go, pick the bones out of that.
One Englishman on each side. It's really bringing English talent to the fore.
20togo
Well-known member
Are you sure. i could have sworn Foden and Kyle Walker were both English. Ah you're talking starting line ups? I think we all know Sterling is a regular starter for City too. But are Dier and Kane not both English?
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Wizaard
Well-known member
Of course I'm talking starting line ups. What else?
20togo
Well-known member
So your post was wrong then.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Ok. So 3 is packing it out with academy players? You know you're wrong.
20togo
Well-known member
No you were wrong. You made a statement. It was inaccurate. I pointed that out so you shift the goalposts.. And like it or not but players from the other home nations have always featured in English teams so you can add Bale,Davies into the squad. As well as Englishman Joe Hart.. And the injured Winks.
Wizaard
Well-known member
I notice there wasn't a peep from you all afternoon then as soon as Spurs are on telly you appear.
Squad my arse. They might not even get on. There are 3 English players on the pitch. I'm not wrong at all. Bale English? Really?
And the injured Winks. Why not include Martin Peters and Jimmy Greaves
20togo
Well-known member
But you said two. You were wrong. Go and look at Englands squad on wednesday. Most were ex academy players. And then there's the injured playerslike TTA and Gomez. Ex academy players. What don't you get about that?
Wizaard
Well-known member
Ok. So 3 means we're in a great position. Go and watch Spurs. The team with 9 overseas players against the team with 10. That's really showing the strength of the system. What part of that don't you understand?
20togo
Well-known member
The Academies are producing players for England. The evidence is there. Look at Englands starting line up.
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Plumbs
Guest
Martin Peters was known as the 'Ghost' so his inclusion might be entirely appropriate (smiley)
Did Winks injure himself blinking? I'll keep my eye on him.
20togo
Well-known member
Can't believe how good Dier has been as well. He'd be my motm.
PNENIL
Well-known member
Yeah but Gary Neville agrees with me
20togo
Well-known member
No problem with that but when you're playing a team like City who had so much of the ball you have to defend well. And Dier did that superbly. How many headers did he win, how many blocks did he put in. Never seen him play better.Yeah but Gary Neville agrees with me
Wizaard
Well-known member
How many of these 'academy' players have gone straight into their first team? Arguably they've learned their trade in the EFL on loan when they've had to grow up, Kane being the obvious name that comes to mind. More loans than Wonga.
20togo
Well-known member
But that's what it's all about. Your post is laughable. Bring these players up thru the junior age groups and when they get to a certain age decide if they would benefit from a loan to get them used to what senior football is about. Isn't that what Arsenal are doing with Ballard. Bet you're not moaning about that are you? Yeah, he's Irish but the point is exactly the same.
Are you suggesting all loans should be scrapped?
Wizaard
Well-known member
No, I'm saying the academies shouldn't take all the credit. Obviously.
20togo
Well-known member
The Academies are producing players for their country. I really can't understand your negativity. Do you want England to do well or not? Certainly doesn't sound like it. And I know I've read posts on AVFTT with regards to your apathy to our National team. For a few years now.
Wizaard
Well-known member
I'm saying the players get better when they get out of the academies and start to play football in a proper competitive environment. Academies are all well and good for bringing out the technical side but it doesn't teach them how to compete. Players learn and develop from getting out and playing in proper football. You only have to look at the academies in the Papa John's to see they lack something.
And at least I commented on our game. I sense apathy to Blackpool when there's not a peep out of you until Spurs kick off. Enjoy your win. I'll enjoy ours.
20togo
Well-known member
I suggest you need to re-visit the matchday thread. Oh and it was you who resurrected this thread. That's a cheap shot from you Wiz. You know that and I know that. I pretty much comment on BFC many times every single day. And have done so on AVFTT for 15 years.
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Wizaard
Well-known member
Following up your cheap shot but when do it it's ok. I see you posted once in the first half when you defended your Madine position. Once at half time wondering if we'd hold on and then criticising zonal marking when we conceded.
Meanwhile defending the contribution of academies and the EPL you're all over it.
20togo
Well-known member
You resurrected the thread Wiz not me. What I've said is accurate. You've lost your appetite for England, you've said that yourself. On the other hand I've not lost my appetite for watching BFC, England and many other games shown live on tv. By the way you criticise me for just three comments. Is that three more than your mate? Just wondering like. Pretty sticky wicket that you're on with that one.
Wizaard
Well-known member
You make so many statements with such certainty yet you're completely wrong. I'd love England to win something. Your love of the EPL blinds you to the fact that the cosmopolitan nature of it means that there's a limited pool of England players available.
You can't bring yourself to admit it, so get caught up in petty squabbles insisting how good it is that there are 3 players in a game qualified for England and not 2. Deflection from the real issue.
20togo
Well-known member
You resurrected the thread not me. You got your facts wrong not me. And what is this limited pool of players? How many of the England squad came from a division lower than the top one of the country they are playing in? Would the answer be none? Yep, it would! Has that always been the case? No it hasn't! Suggests to me that the the EPL Academy teams are doing quite well in producing the players for England doesn't it! The game has moved on Wiz, you need to do the same. It's a global game, and the EPL is at the forefront of that. You criticised the academies yet I point out that it's the academy producing all these England players. I'm not gonna feel guilty just because you don't like the EPL and seem to take every opportunity to criticise both it and the teams academies for the top players they are producing.
Wizaard
Well-known member
And you completely failed to acknowledge that hardly anyone progresses straight from the much vaunted academies into the first team without getting a real grounding out on loan to the Football League. It's that bit that brings the players on, not playing endless friendlies.
But carry on with your love in with the thing that's actively trying to prevent clubs like Blackpool from joining them.
20togo
Well-known member
Not me failing to acknowledge. Your views are archaic. Your hatred of the EPL is clear. I think if you check you'll find that teams academies don't play in endless friendlies. Jeez even BFC academy team had a competitive game today. Guess what? They got three points for winning. The set up at clubs these days involves a lot more players, coaches and back up teams than it ever did. I also acknowledged that young players get experience from going out on loan. Remember my comment on Ballard. Bet you're glad he's with us too. A player produced by the Arsenal academy.
And my points are all about the game of football. Not about decisions made off it. In fact your comment does suggest your contempt for EPL means you'd hate us to get there. After all why want to play in a competition or league you despise.
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Wizaard
Well-known member
You once again convinced of your own infallibility. Ballard is with us to improve. That's because he won't if he stays in academies. Arteta recognises that. It's beyond you.
20togo
Well-known member
I've already acknowledged that. He's here to get experience and that experience will improve him. Same for all the players who go out on loan but the fact that won't sink in with you is those players are at an academy in the first place. Their talent has already been recognised and nurtured. So the academies are doing their job and producing players some who will go on to play for their country. Bloody staggering that England are world ranked fourth with pretty much every player who has come thru the academy system..That so called limited pool of players is doing us loads of harm isn't it?
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Wizaard
Well-known member
Bit like the McIlroy thread this. He and we are doing well but could do so much better. Shame you're content to accept mediocrity rather than try and improve. Must get back to MOTD I recorded so I can find more stuff to hate.
20togo
Well-known member
World ranked fourth ain't too bad is it? Hardly mediocrity like you claim. Think it more than reasonable to say we are improving. Perhaps if you wathed a bit more you'd realise that. A lot of young players coming thru. Sure. we could be ranked higher, sure it would be great to win something But we only one one major trophy before the advent of the EPL in 60 years so there's a fair bit to go before we reach 60 years after. Is it perhaps your attitude that thinks that being English we are entitled to be the best at everything? Life doesn't work like that i'm afraid. My advice would try to be positive but realistic.