Its about time our government did something

[Mexboroseasider]

seems your post is not worthy of a reply. Wonder why that is?

Probably because it’s full of half truths and outright lies.

Just a few questions for you.

Who started the Six Day War?

What was the nationality of the murderer of Israeli PM Rabin and why did he murder him?

How many Arab countries have recognised Israel’s right to exist?

Did the PLO recognise Israel’s right to exist?

Which government cosied up to Hamas to sideline Fatah and failed to implement the agreed Accords designed to bring about a two state solution?

When did Fatah last (or ever) breach a ceasefire?

Why no mention of the land grab by extremist settlers? Which you yourself have acknowledged and said should be stopped by the Israeli government?

Having been relatively even handed (at least compared to some in this debate) I’m surprised you’ve decided to align yourself (for a second time) with someone whose preferred outcome is the ethnic cleansing, if not the outright genocide, of the Palestinians.

 

[20togo]

Probably because it’s full of half truths and outright lies.

Just a few questions for you.

Who started the Six Day War?

What was the nationality of the murderer of Israeli PM Rabin and why did he murder him?

How many Arab countries have recognised Israel’s right to exist?

Did the PLO recognise Israel’s right to exist?

Which government cosied up to Hamas to sideline Fatah and failed to implement the agreed Accords designed to bring about a two state solution?

When did Fatah last (or ever) breach a ceasefire?

Why no mention of the land grab by extremist settlers? Which you yourself have acknowledged and said should be stopped by the Israeli government?

Having been relatively even handed (at least compared to some in this debate) I’m surprised you’ve decided to align yourself (for a second time) with someone whose preferred outcome is the ethnic cleansing, if not the outright genocide, of the Palestinians.

they are not questions for me. I simply made a comment in order to try and provoke a response from the likes of yourself. Which it has done. And I haven't aligned myself with anyone. I simply offer my own thoughts and opinions. My current thought is what benefit is a temporary ceasefire to Israel unless it guarantees the return of the hostages? Hamas has far more to gain from any ceasefire, I think. Harsh realities.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

they are not questions for me. I simply made a comment in order to try and provoke a response from the likes of yourself. Which it has done.

Well you asked why his post wasn’t worthy of a reply and I told you.

Plus I knew I’d provoke a response from you. Which i have done. And also I see from the laughing buffoon.

 

[Shandypants]

Probably because it’s full of half truths and outright lies.

Just a few questions for you.

Who started the Six Day War?

What was the nationality of the murderer of Israeli PM Rabin and why did he murder him?

How many Arab countries have recognised Israel’s right to exist?

Did the PLO recognise Israel’s right to exist?

Which government cosied up to Hamas to sideline Fatah and failed to implement the agreed Accords designed to bring about a two state solution?

When did Fatah last (or ever) breach a ceasefire?

Why no mention of the land grab by extremist settlers? Which you yourself have acknowledged and said should be stopped by the Israeli government?

Having been relatively even handed (at least compared to some in this debate) I’m surprised you’ve decided to align yourself (for a second time) with someone whose preferred outcome is the ethnic cleansing, if not the outright genocide, of the Palestinians.

Don't forget historical Jewish terrorist acts and that an Israeli PM was leader of a designated terrorist organisation

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Don't forget historical Jewish terrorist acts and that an Israeli PM was leader of a designated terrorist organisation

Including the killing of British soldiers and civilians and then the massacre of Palestinian villagers during the 1948 War.

That’s not in any way intended to condone the killings and atrocities that have come the other way. Rather it’s an attempt to rip off the rose tinted spectacles of those who try to paint a very black and white picture of the history of the region. With one side painted as the virtuous victim and the other the agent of evil who deserves everything that’s rained down on him (and her. And the children).

As I’ve said before, Israel has historically had a huge amount of goodwill from the West (less so the rest of the world) because of the Holocaust and the fact it had (and just about still has) a functioning democracy. And then especially when compared to the neighbouring Arab and Persian nations. One objective of the 7th October murders was to destroy that goodwill, and currently by following the Hamas playbook, that’s precisely what the Netanyahu government is doing.

Edit to add: Not only is a ceasefire the right thing to do for humanitarian reasons. It’s also the right thing to do from the perspective of the wider Israeli national and security interests.

 

[Wizaard]

Do you really think you can place any reliance upon any kind of survey or poll conducted in a territory controlled by Hamas? Or that the geopolitics of this situation takes any account of what ordinary Israelis and Palestinians want?

It's a bit depressing that some people appear not to understand that there is a humanitarian as well as a political dimension to this problem, and at the moment the Israelis are being led by the nose by Hamas on both fronts. The big winners in the last three or four weeks have been the Iranians, who now have lots of plausible cover, on various levels, for waging their proxy war with Israel.

Done by the same pollsters of 'free' elections in Russian controlled Ukraine.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

Including the killing of British soldiers and civilians and then the massacre of Palestinian villagers during the 1948 War.

That’s not in any way intended to condone the killings and atrocities that have come the other way. Rather it’s an attempt to rip off the rose tinted spectacles of those who try to paint a very black and white picture of the history of the region. With one side painted as the virtuous victim and the other the agent of evil who deserves everything that’s rained down on him (and her. And the children).

As I’ve said before, Israel has historically had a huge amount of goodwill from the West (less so the rest of the world) because of the Holocaust and the fact it had (and just about still has) a functioning democracy. And then especially when compared to the neighbouring Arab and Persian nations. One objective of the 7th October murders was to destroy that goodwill, and currently by following the Hamas playbook, that’s precisely what the Netanyahu government is doing.

Edit to add: Not only is a ceasefire the right thing to do for humanitarian reasons. It’s also the right thing to do from the perspective of the wider Israeli national and security interests.

"Edit to add: Not only is a ceasefire the right thing to do for humanitarian reasons. It’s also the right thing to do from the perspective of the wider Israeli national and security interests"

What a load of ** nonsense

 

[Mexboroseasider]

"Edit to add: Not only is a ceasefire the right thing to do for humanitarian reasons. It’s also the right thing to do from the perspective of the wider Israeli national and security interests"

What a load of ** nonsense

But you agree with the rest of my post.

Progress at last.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

But you agree with the rest of my post.

Progress at last.

No I don't i just picked out the bit that was the most ridiculous

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I’m not sure a ceasefire is going to happen anytime soon because Israel knows any ceasefire will allow Hamas to regroup and go again.

Now I’m not saying I’m agreeing with all the bombing/shelling that's currently going on but the Gaza civilians were told 3 weeks ago to move south of a line drawn up by Israel many did go south but many remained many that did remain decided to stay with their children which is just insane to me given the devastation we are seeing.

Israel won’t stop until it’s achieved it’s aim of eradicating Hamas or until America tells them to stop and right now they are still fully supportive of them.

I honestly can’t see a quick solution to all this I’m afraid and things could easily escalate in other regions.

It’s certainly taken the heat away to all the land grabbing Putin has done/doing in Ukraine.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

No I don't i just picked out the bit that was the most ridiculous

So what’s your plan for the 2 million people in Gaza?

1) Wipe them out? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
2) Lock them up with even harsher restrictions? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
3) Push them into Egypt? And push Egypt back into the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood. And change an ally into an enemy. Along with all the other neighbouring nations who have either recognised Israel or were working towards “normalisation”.
4) Post a laughing emoji?

I’m curious. Because I can’t see how Israel see this ending well for them. But I’m sure you have a plan beyond “destroy Hamas”.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I’m not sure a ceasefire is going to happen anytime soon because Israel knows any ceasefire will allow Hamas to regroup and go again.

Now I’m not saying I’m agreeing with all the bombing/shelling that's currently going on but the Gaza civilians were told 3 weeks ago to move south of a line drawn up by Israel many did go south but many remained many that did remain decided to stay with their children which is just insane to me given the devastation we are seeing.

Israel won’t stop until it’s achieved it’s aim of eradicating Hamas or until America tells them to stop and right now they are still fully supportive of them.

I honestly can’t see a quick solution to all this I’m afraid and things could easily escalate in other regions.

It’s certainly taken the heat away to all the land grabbing Putin has done/doing in Ukraine.

Actually I think the official US position is a “humanitarian pause” but their real objective is a ceasefire. That’s why Blinken has just gone back out there.

Israel’s pretty obvious objective was to pull the US in militarily which the US won’t allow unless they have no alternative. So while the Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria are firing on IS bases, they are limited strikes, designed not to push the US too far.

So a ceasefire may happen sooner rather than later. The main obstacle is Netanyahu who knows that once “peace” is restored, he’s toast politically in Israel. It’s in his personal interest to keep the war going.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Actually I think the official US position is a “humanitarian pause” but their real objective is a ceasefire. That’s why Blinken has just gone back out there.

Israel’s pretty obvious objective was to pull the US in militarily which the US won’t allow unless they have no alternative. So while the Iranian proxies in Iraq and Syria are firing on IS bases, they are limited strikes, designed not to push the US too far.

So a ceasefire may happen sooner rather than later. The main obstacle is Netanyahu who knows that once “peace” is restored, he’s toast politically in Israel. It’s in his personal interest to keep the war going.

I think Netanyahu is toast whatever happens after the dust just settled along with his entire Government and the homeland security services for what happened on 7th October.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I think Netanyahu is toast whatever happens after the dust just settled along with his entire Government and the homeland security services for what happened on 7th October.

You could be right. That’s why coming home with “I am the man who rid us of Hamas” is his only option.

Remember he was facing criminal charges for corruption and trying to assert political control over the courts before all this happened. Hundreds of thousands of Israelis were marching in protest against him. He’s a desperate man running out of options, prepared to waste the lives of Israeli soldiers to say nothing of Palestinian civilians to save his own neck.

 

[20togo]

So what’s your plan for the 2 million people in Gaza?

1) Wipe them out? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
2) Lock them up with even harsher restrictions? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
3) Push them into Egypt? And push Egypt back into the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood. And change an ally into an enemy. Along with all the other neighbouring nations who have either recognised Israel or were working towards “normalisation”.
4) Post a laughing emoji?

I’m curious. Because I can’t see how Israel see this ending well for them. But I’m sure you have a plan beyond “destroy Hamas”.

1. Wipe them out? You mean like Hamas.Hezbollah and Iran want to do to Israel. You perhaps keep wanting to ignore that point. I'm fed up telling you that Israel are fighting for their very existence but that seems unimportant to you. Hamas re-ignited this war lest you forget. And remember this, their aims will make what is happening now seem insignificant.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

1. Wipe them out? You mean like Hamas.Hezbollah and Iran want to do to Israel. You perhaps keep wanting to ignore that point. I'm fed up telling you that Israel are fighting for their very existence but that seems unimportant to you. Hamas re-ignited this war lest you forget. And remember this, their aims will make what is happening now seem insignificant.

I haven’t ignored the point. Re-read my many posts on this and other threads. I’ve agreed many times that the ambition of some Arab/Persian nations and groups to wipe Israel off the face of the map is completely and utterly wrong. And frankly I’m fed up with you ignoring those comments, and trying to infer that I’m somehow sympathetic to Hamas etc. when nothing could be further from the truth. Although to be fair I suspect you’re now mixing me up with other posters and have adopted a scattergun approach in your replies.

But a question to you about this existential threat to the State of Israel. Do you really believe that the people hunkered down in Gaza, trying to avoid the bombs and artillery shells raining down on them really pose that much of a threat to the Nation of Israel? And don’t you think a bigger threat for Israel is to have every nation in the Middle East as its enemy? While the West shrugs its shoulders and thinks to itself “After Gaza we don’t care anymore”.

The real existential threat to Israel lies in what it does over the next few weeks and months.

 

[20togo]

I haven’t ignored the point. Re-read my many posts on this and other threads. I’ve agreed many times that the ambition of some Arab/Persian nations and groups to wipe Israel off the face of the map is completely and utterly wrong. And frankly I’m fed up with you ignoring those comments, and trying to infer that I’m somehow sympathetic to Hamas etc. when nothing could be further from the truth. Although to be fair I suspect you’re now mixing me up with other posters and have adopted a scattergun approach in your replies.

But a question to you about this existential threat to the State of Israel. Do you really believe that the people hunkered down in Gaza, trying to avoid the bombs and artillery shells raining down on them really pose that much of a threat to the Nation of Israel? And don’t you think a bigger threat for Israel is to have every nation in the Middle East as its enemy? While the West shrugs its shoulders and thinks to itself “After Gaza we don’t care anymore”.

The real existential threat to Israel lies in what it does over the next few weeks and months.

There is certainly some horrific scenes being shown on our screens from inside Gaza particularly those showing people lying dead in the road heading south supposedly shot down by sniper fire from Israeli troops. That is unacceptable.

As for your second para, well as long as Hamas are using supposed civilians as their shield then sadly many innocent people are going to be killed. That's the brutality of war. And of course there is the propaganda war. Head south for safety says Israel but many aren't doing. And of course it seems that Israel has been hitting targets in the south too. Legitimate targets? Who knows for sure. But as i said the other day it's reported that in 2021 53% of Palestinians were in favour of armed conflict. Perhaps they saw that as the only way to be free so yes, it's understandable why they may think that way. It was said and I think just before the events of 7/10 that tt's now at 69%. So well over one in two. So to answer your question about those hunkered down, yes a great many of them could be a potential future threat. Especially with what is happening now. Again, the brutality of war.

And without any great knowledge on the subject I'd suggest that pretty much every Arab nation in the middle east sees Israel in a bad light, maybe even an enemy and if it wasn't for the West then the situation would have been much worse ever since the creation of the nation.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

There is certainly some horrific scenes being shown on our screens from inside Gaza particularly those showing people lying dead in the road heading south supposedly shot down by sniper fire from Israeli troops. That is unacceptable.

As for your second para, well as long as Hamas are using supposed civilians as their shield then sadly many innocent people are going to be killed. That's the brutality of war. And of course there is the propaganda war. Head south for safety says Israel but many aren't doing. And of course it seems that Israel has been hitting targets in the south too. Legitimate targets? Who knows for sure. But as i said the other day it's reported that in 2021 53% of Palestinians were in favour of armed conflict. Perhaps they saw that as the only way to be free so yes, it's understandable why they may think that way. It was said and I think just before the events of 7/10 that tt's now at 69%. So well over one in two. So to answer your question about those hunkered down, yes a great many of them could be a potential future threat. Especially with what is happening now. Again, the brutality of war.

And without any great knowledge on the subject I'd suggest that pretty much every Arab nation in the middle east sees Israel in a bad light, maybe even an enemy and if it wasn't for the West then the situation would have been much worse ever since the creation of the nation.

Re your final paragraph, that’s why Israel should be looking to maintain the support of the West, by which I mean mainly the US. I can’t believe a massacre in Gaza, even worse than what we are witnessing currently, will help achieve that objective.

Which is why I said a ceasefire is also in the Israeli national and security interests. It just isn’t in the interests of Netanyahu.

 

[20togo]

Re your final paragraph, that’s why Israel should be looking to maintain the support of the West, by which I mean mainly the US. I can’t believe a massacre in Gaza, even worse than what we are witnessing currently, will help achieve that objective.

Which is why I said a ceasefire is also in the Israeli national and security interests. It just isn’t in the interests of Netanyahu.

Can the US and the West afford not to back Israel? They too have little choice knowing the consequences of not doing. And Israel, Netanyahu and the Arab world know that too. So is it really Israel dancing to Hamas tune? Maybe not!

 

[1966_and_all_that]

Probably because it’s full of half truths and outright lies.

Just a few questions for you.

Who started the Six Day War?

What was the nationality of the murderer of Israeli PM Rabin and why did he murder him?

How many Arab countries have recognised Israel’s right to exist?

Did the PLO recognise Israel’s right to exist?

Which government cosied up to Hamas to sideline Fatah and failed to implement the agreed Accords designed to bring about a two state solution?

When did Fatah last (or ever) breach a ceasefire?

Why no mention of the land grab by extremist settlers? Which you yourself have acknowledged and said should be stopped by the Israeli government?

Having been relatively even handed (at least compared to some in this debate) I’m surprised you’ve decided to align yourself (for a second time) with someone whose preferred outcome is the ethnic cleansing, if not the outright genocide, of the Palestinians.

This is all becoming a tad point scoring. It's a shit situation and regardless of what any individual or nation says, the only ones who can sort this are the Americans.

 

[TangerineBayern]

Wait until Farrage wins I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here and then runs for a Tory Bi Election and throws his name into the ring as PM at the next General Election. These Pro Palestinian Marches ( = terrorist breeding grounds) especially that planned for Armistice Sunday will see a massive surge from the right!

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

This is all becoming a tad point scoring. It's a shit situation and regardless of what any individual or nation says, the only ones who can sort this are the Americans.

100% as I’ve said above in post 210.

 

[1966_and_all_that]

100% as I’ve said above in post 210.

Sorry Jaffa, I've only speed read through the posts so might have missed yours. Yes, Putin must think it's Christmas.

 

[Phil_bfc deux]

So what’s your plan for the 2 million people in Gaza?

1) Wipe them out? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
2) Lock them up with even harsher restrictions? And have Israel become a pariah nation.
3) Push them into Egypt? And push Egypt back into the arms of the Muslim Brotherhood. And change an ally into an enemy. Along with all the other neighbouring nations who have either recognised Israel or were working towards “normalisation”.
4) Post a laughing emoji?

I’m curious. Because I can’t see how Israel see this ending well for them. But I’m sure you have a plan beyond “destroy Hamas”.

 

[20togo]

This is all becoming a tad point scoring. It's a shit situation and regardless of what any individual or nation says, the only ones who can sort this are the Americans.

generally,don't see it that way at all. Just people looking at it from different angles, different perspective etc.

 

[Archibald Knox]

He’s flounced. Well, I think he has. His post on the AVFTT forum demanding that his account be closed because of “censorship” lasted about 10 minutes this morning before disappearing.