Its about time our government did something

20togo said:
what does a ceasefire achieve? Is it reasonable to think it includes allowing Hamas to regroup, to perhaps take supplies meant for everybody rather than just those who are digging in preparing for a fight. Israel know that. Is it reasonable to think Hamas are using innocent Palestinians as a human shield yet the consensus on here seems to fail to realise that and solely blaming Israel. Israel are fighting a war because of the actions of Hamas on 7/10. That's the stark reality.

No matter what you think, it's simply just not as simple as you would like to believe.
Click to expand...
I suppose it’s as simple or complex as you choose to make it.

What would a ceasefire achieve? I’ve answered this question several times already. It would save the lives of innocent children who will other wise be killed. Today. Tomorrow. And everyday until there’s an end to the offensive.

Yes. A ceasefire would allow Hamas to regroup. Yes. I imagine they will take some of the humanitarian aid intended for the civilian population. And yes it’s wrong of Hamas to use civilians as a human shield. But a ceasefire isn’t designed to tackle any of those issues. The purpose is simply to save lives of innocent people and children trapped in Gaza.

To flip it around. How do you propose getting rid of Hamas without killing civilians? And if you conclude that it’s not possible, but you still support the IDF incursion into Gaza and believe that the slaughter of children is a price worth paying, how many of them have to die to achieve the destruction of Hamas? What’s an acceptable number before it’s too many? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Or all of the population of Gaza?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree.

Some posters seem to think that calling for cities to be “flattened” and thousands of innocent people (including children) to be killed, starved and terrorised, in pursuit of their objective, is a perfectly reasonable position to adopt.

And unless they have a blueprint that’s guaranteed to defeat Hamas and achieve peace in the region, a challenge that’s defeated the finest minds for decades, then posters are not allowed to point out how wrong this policy is and call for a ceasefire. In fact if a poster dares to point that out and call for a ceasefire, then they are called a **/scum/ and/or a terrorist sympathiser. Or even worse “unliberal”.

Perfectly reasonable of course. In some minds at least.
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I will ask you again

How will a ceasefire solve the problem with Hamas?
 
I find it strange how the Arab world are all calling for a ceasefire and humanitarian aid (which I’m all for by the way before anyone goes off on one) that no Arab countries have come forward and said they’ll take in these refugees.
I find it even stranger Egypt is allowing foreign nationals to cross at that crossing point but not the Palestinians fleeing the war in Gaza.
Does anyone actually really want them because it doesn’t look like it at all to me.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
I will ask you again

How will a ceasefire solve the problem with Hamas?
Click to expand...
I’ve answered that question several times but will answer it again. It won’t. It’s not designed to do that. It’s designed to save the lives of innocent children.

So I’ll ask you the same question I asked 20s. How do you propose getting rid of Hamas without killing innocent people and children? And if you say that’s not possible then what’s an acceptable number of innocent deaths?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I suppose it’s as simple or complex as you choose to make it.

What would a ceasefire achieve? I’ve answered this question several times already. It would save the lives of innocent children who will other wise be killed. Today. Tomorrow. And everyday until there’s an end to the offensive.

Yes. A ceasefire would allow Hamas to regroup. Yes. I imagine they will take some of the humanitarian aid intended for the civilian population. And yes it’s wrong of Hamas to use civilians as a human shield. But a ceasefire isn’t designed to tackle any of those issues. The purpose is simply to save lives of innocent people and children trapped in Gaza.

To flip it around. How do you propose getting rid of Hamas without killing civilians? And if you conclude that it’s not possible, but you still support the IDF incursion into Gaza and believe that the slaughter of children is a price worth paying, how many of them have to die to achieve the destruction of Hamas? What’s an acceptable number before it’s too many? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Or all of the population of Gaza?
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Your interpretation of what I've said is way too heavy handed. I don't support the slaughter of children and think it's a price worth paying at all. So please don't come up with the nonsense of asking me to give numbers. That's really poor stuff from you. What I've said is the stark reality is that this is a war started by Hamas on 7/10 and in any war it's pretty inevitable that sadly there will be plenty of innocent casualties. Like it or not, that's something you have to accept and acknowledge. And this ceasefire, do you seriously think Hamas will willingly allow all children to leave Gaza and will the children want to leave Gaza without their parents? And it's a certainty that plenty of these children will be the children of Hamas fighters, bot that that makes any difference. War is brutal and sadly that's what we are seeing..
 
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20togo said:
Your interpretation of what I've said is way too heavy handed. I don't support the slaughter of children and think it's a price worth paying at all. So please don't come up with the nonsense of asking me to give numbers. That's really poor stuff from you.
Click to expand...
You don't like it when people do it to you then, LOL.

Can't believe some people are comparing it with Tramgate last night, disgusting.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I find it strange how the Arab world are all calling for a ceasefire and humanitarian aid (which I’m all for by the way before anyone goes off on one) that no Arab countries have come forward and said they’ll take in these refugees.
I find it even stranger Egypt is allowing foreign nationals to cross at that crossing point but not the Palestinians fleeing the war in Gaza.
Does anyone actually really want them because it doesn’t look like it at all to me.
Click to expand...
Should Arab countries accept Palestinians as refugees? Or would that amount to co-operating with Israel in a policy of ethnic cleansing (I’m not saying that is official - but secret - Israeli policy by the way, but 20s has suggested it could be and he may be right).

No Egypt doesn’t want Hamas coming in with the refugees. It has its own problems with Islamic extremists and doesn’t want to add fuel to that fire. In fact the Egyptian economy is very fragile and an influx of 2 million refugees could push it over the edge. In that event the Muslim Brotherhood would come back into power (they were previously elected but then toppled by the current military regime). If that happened then Egypt would probably turn from an ally of Israel to an enemy overnight. I can’t see how that would be a sensible outcome from the point of view of Israeli national and security interests.
 
20togo said:
Your interpretation of what I've said is way too heavy handed. I don't support the slaughter of children and think it's a price worth paying at all. So please don't come up with the nonsense of asking me to give numbers. That's really poor stuff from you. What I've said is the stark reality is that this is a war started by Hamas on 7/10 and in any war it's pretty inevitable that sadly there will be plenty of innocent casualties. Like it or not, that's something you have to accept and acknowledge. And this ceasefire, do you seriously think Hamas will willingly allow all children to leave Gaza and will the children want to leave Gaza without their parents? And it's a certainty that plenty of these children will be the children of Hamas fighters, bot that that makes any difference. War is brutal and sadly that's what we are seeing..
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Hamas did indeed start the current crisis I agree. The vast majority of deaths now are being caused by the Israeli incursion and their bombing.

You’ve said you don’t accept that the deaths of children is a price worth paying to get rid of Hamas, but you then say their deaths are an inevitable consequence of war and the Israeli incursion that’s designed to get rid of Hamas. So in effect, while you’ve objected to the way I’ve phrased it, you’re accepting that the deaths of innocent children are inevitable in the fight against Hamas. By supporting the incursion, and opposing a ceasefire, how are you not condoning those deaths?

I suppose the stark choice is between:

1) Getting rid of Hamas via the current military action. And
2) Saving the lives of innocent people in the immediate future via a ceasefire.

And if you support 1) then it’s fair to ask, at what price? Does Israel have a blank cheque in terms of tactics and the number of dead? If not, where are the limits drawn? So yes. It reasonable to ask you to put a figure on it.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Hamas did indeed start the current crisis I agree. The vast majority of deaths now are being caused by the Israeli incursion and their bombing.

You’ve said you don’t accept that the deaths of children is a price worth paying to get rid of Hamas, but you then say their deaths are an inevitable consequence of war and the Israeli incursion that’s designed to get rid of Hamas. So in effect, while you’ve objected to the way I’ve phrased it, you’re accepting that the deaths of innocent children are inevitable in the fight against Hamas. By supporting the incursion, and opposing a ceasefire, how are you not condoning those deaths?

I suppose the stark choice is between:

1) Getting rid of Hamas via the current military action. And
2) Saving the lives of innocent people in the immediate future via a ceasefire.

And if you support 1) then it’s fair to ask, at what price? Does Israel have a blank cheque in terms of tactics and the number of dead? If not, where are the limits drawn? So yes. It reasonable to ask you to put a figure on it.
Click to expand...
no it's not. Look, no-one wanted this war apart from Hamas. I said I don't support the slaughter of children, so please don't suggest I do and it's not a price worth paying. But it's not my decision to make, it's Israels and as I've said the stark reality as it's proving is that there are many innocent lives being lost. And the Hamas controlled Gaza are paying a heavy price for what happened on 7/10. And it didn't take foresight to realise that was going to be inevitable.
 
20togo said:
no it's not. Look, no-one wanted this war apart from Hamas. I said I don't support the slaughter of children, so please don't suggest I do and it's not a price worth paying. But it's not my decision to make, it's Israels and as I've said the stark reality as it's proving is that there are many innocent lives being lost. And the Hamas controlled Gaza are paying a heavy price for what happened on 7/10. And it didn't take foresight to realise that was going to be inevitable.
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I agree with your comment about foresight and that Hamas knew what is now happening would be very likely (if not inevitable). Why did they launch the attacks knowing what the response would be? Several reasons.

First so that they could level the playing field militarily and fight the IDF in an urban setting and on a battlefield of their choosing (with the tunnels etc)

Secondly because they knew civilian deaths in Gaza would be laid at the door of Israel. That would put Arab leaders under pressure from their citizens to condemn Israel and end the process of “normalisation”. But it would also undermine Israel in the eyes of the West. Historically Israel has enjoyed a huge amount of goodwill partly because of the Holocaust and also because they were perceived as being the only democracy in the Middle East. Their current actions are risking that goodwill so that, at the end, people in the West will look at Israel and judge them to be as bad as their enemies. Two sides of the same coin.

That was the Hamas playbook and at the moment Israel is playing its part to perfection. Another reason for a ceasefire would be to stop dancing the Hamas tune and disrupt their plans. And then work quietly to undermine them, with the help of Arab allies. While Israel still has some.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I find it strange how the Arab world are all calling for a ceasefire and humanitarian aid (which I’m all for by the way before anyone goes off on one) that no Arab countries have come forward and said they’ll take in these refugees.
I find it even stranger Egypt is allowing foreign nationals to cross at that crossing point but not the Palestinians fleeing the war in Gaza.
Does anyone actually really want them because it doesn’t look like it at all to me.
Click to expand...
Maybe because they are not refugees, they are Palestinians livting where they were born and bred, in what should be their own country. Do you wish to create another Diaspora?
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with your comment about foresight and that Hamas knew what is now happening would be very likely (if not inevitable). Why did they launch the attacks knowing what the response would be? Several reasons.

First so that they could level the playing field militarily and fight the IDF in an urban setting and on a battlefield of their choosing (with the tunnels etc)

Secondly because they knew civilian deaths in Gaza would be laid at the door of Israel. That would put Arab leaders under pressure from their citizens to condemn Israel and end the process of “normalisation”. But it would also undermine Israel in the eyes of the West. Historically Israel has enjoyed a huge amount of goodwill partly because of the Holocaust and also because they were perceived as being the only democracy in the Middle East. Their current actions are risking that goodwill so that, at the end, people in the West will look at Israel and judge them to be as bad as their enemies. Two sides of the same coin.

That was the Hamas playbook and at the moment Israel is playing its part to perfection. Another reason for a ceasefire would be to stop dancing the Hamas tune and disrupt their plans. And then work quietly to undermine them, with the help of Arab allies. While Israel still has some.
Click to expand...

It has been completely ignored by almost everyone on here that Netanyahu played a part in strengthening and supporting Hamas in the years prior to the 7/10 massacre. He did this because he felt it played into his wider aims of stopping a two state solution and he viewed the government of the West Bank as a bigger enemy than Hamas. So to use the rather simplistic language of some on here, Is / was Netanyahu a terrorist sympathiser?
You see the world isn't always completely black and white as some would like, there are many threads playing out here.

www.timesofisrael.com

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com


www.indiatoday.in

Why Netanyahu helped fund Hamas and how that backfired for Israel

If Benjamin Netanyahu-led Israel didn't create Frankenstein's monster, it for sure helped nourish it. This is why Israel funneled Qatari money to Gaza as Hamas lulled it into a false sense of security and its citizens paid a heavy price for the miscalculation.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in

www.haaretz.com

A brief history of the Netanyahu-Hamas alliance | Opinion

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It has been completely ignored by almost everyone on here that Netanyahu played a part in strengthening and supporting Hamas in the years prior to the 7/10 massacre. He did this because he felt it played into his wider aims of stopping a two state solution and he viewed the government of the West Bank as a bigger enemy than Hamas. So to use the rather simplistic language of some on here, Is / was Netanyahu a terrorist sympathiser?
You see the world isn't always completely black and white as some would like, there are many threads playing out here.

www.timesofisrael.com

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com


www.indiatoday.in

Why Netanyahu helped fund Hamas and how that backfired for Israel

If Benjamin Netanyahu-led Israel didn't create Frankenstein's monster, it for sure helped nourish it. This is why Israel funneled Qatari money to Gaza as Hamas lulled it into a false sense of security and its citizens paid a heavy price for the miscalculation.
www.indiatoday.in www.indiatoday.in

www.haaretz.com

A brief history of the Netanyahu-Hamas alliance | Opinion

***
www.haaretz.com www.haaretz.com
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Yes. Feed the Monster and then be surprised when it ups and bites your hand off.

This will be one of the reasons why 80% of Israelis hold Netanyahu partly culpable for 7th October.

And no. That’s not a statement of support for Hamas. If it were then the vast majority of Israelis could also be dismissed as “terrorist sympathisers”.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I agree with your comment about foresight and that Hamas knew what is now happening would be very likely (if not inevitable). Why did they launch the attacks knowing what the response would be? Several reasons.

First so that they could level the playing field militarily and fight the IDF in an urban setting and on a battlefield of their choosing (with the tunnels etc)

Secondly because they knew civilian deaths in Gaza would be laid at the door of Israel. That would put Arab leaders under pressure from their citizens to condemn Israel and end the process of “normalisation”. But it would also undermine Israel in the eyes of the West. Historically Israel has enjoyed a huge amount of goodwill partly because of the Holocaust and also because they were perceived as being the only democracy in the Middle East. Their current actions are risking that goodwill so that, at the end, people in the West will look at Israel and judge them to be as bad as their enemies. Two sides of the same coin.

That was the Hamas playbook and at the moment Israel is playing its part to perfection. Another reason for a ceasefire would be to stop dancing the Hamas tune and disrupt their plans. And then work quietly to undermine them, with the help of Arab allies.
Click to expand...
yes, pretty much agree with all that. Israel will do what it wants to do though and even if you think it's dancing to Hamas tune it's still taking out plenty of Hamas operatives which is their objective. And the longer it goes on and the more it becomes urban warfare then the casualties on both sides will start to rise, especially Israels. But it seems that's a sacrifice the Israeli govt are prepared to make for the sake of trying to nullify Hamas. And it's all well and good to say to try to undermine Hamas but seriously does Israel have any genuine Arab allies?
 
20togo said:
yes, pretty much agree with all that. Israel will do what it wants to do though and even if you think it's dancing to Hamas tune it's still taking out plenty of Hamas operatives which is their objective. And the longer it goes on and the more it becomes urban warfare then the casualties on both sides will start to rise, especially Israels. But it seems that's a sacrifice the Israeli govt are prepared to make for the sake of trying to nullify Hamas. And it's all well and good to say to try to undermine Hamas but seriously does Israel have any genuine Arab allies?
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Yes there are genuine Arab allies, if only because of the shared antipathy for Iran. And some surprising ones as well. This is from 2017 so it’s not new.

Saudi Arabia and Israel quietly prepare ‘deal of the century’

IBA Global Insight October/November 2017. Global Insight investigates a major yet secretive new alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel intended to bring peace to a tumultuous region and make Saudi Arabia the uncontested leader of the Middle East.
www.ibanet.org www.ibanet.org
 
Tangerinemoss said:
Maybe because they are not refugees, they are Palestinians livting where they were born and bred, in what should be their own country. Do you wish to create another Diaspora?
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No I don’t but I’d expect these fellow countries would at least take them in during the current crisis instead of keeping their borders closed.

And I never even mentioned anything about them never returning to their homeland did I?
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
No I don’t but I’d expect these fellow countries would at least take them in during the current crisis.
I never even mentioned anything about never returning to their homeland did I?
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I believe that many of the inhabitants of the Gaza strip are already refugees (3rd or 4th generation) who were driven from their land in previous conflicts. This makes it less likely that they would want to leave Gaza.
According to this article 1.7 million of the 2.2 million population are in this category;

 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I believe that many of the inhabitants of the Gaza strip are already refugees (3rd or 4th generation) who were driven from their land in previous conflicts. This makes it less likely that they would want to leave Gaza.
According to this article 1.7 million of the 2.2 million population are in this category;

Click to expand...

Let’s be clear here these countries don’t want them because they would be taking in Hamas fighters as well.

They’ve clearly blended into the background now returned to being fathers, brothers and son’s ditched the black uniforms and the guns no doubt ready for the next call for a Jihad.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’ve answered that question several times but will answer it again. It won’t. It’s not designed to do that. It’s designed to save the lives of innocent children.

So I’ll ask you the same question I asked 20s. How do you propose getting rid of Hamas without killing innocent people and children? And if you say that’s not possible then what’s an acceptable number of innocent deaths?
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To be honest the Palestinian people need to man up and actually try to get rid of Hamas themselves

I dont see much appetite for that though

So the ground offensive needs to carry on until Hamas are wiped out of Gaza

There will never be peace whilst Hamas are ruling Gaza
 
Brazil said:
Simple: the chant can be interpreted either as the Palestinians having their own country ( which is possible together with an Israeli state ) or a call for the complete destruction of Israel. I don't agree with the second. I'm simply saying there are 2 possible and accepted interpretations, that's all.

Do you think the Palestinian people have as much right to their own free country as the Israelis do? Because I do. I am against violence of any description, especially against innocent people, it's abhorrent and inhuman.

Just one more point about the term " terrorists". You may remember Menachim Begin who became Israeli PM, and a respected one. He ( and others) was proscribed as a terrorist by the British Government while fighting for independence for Israel. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. 'Twas ever thus and probably always will be.
I abhor violence wherever it comes from.
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See also Blessed Margaret's view on Mandela, while Pinochet was her hero.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Yes there are genuine Arab allies, if only because of the shared antipathy for Iran. And some surprising ones as well. This is from 2017 so it’s not new.

Saudi Arabia and Israel quietly prepare ‘deal of the century’

IBA Global Insight October/November 2017. Global Insight investigates a major yet secretive new alliance between Saudi Arabia and Israel intended to bring peace to a tumultuous region and make Saudi Arabia the uncontested leader of the Middle East.
www.ibanet.org www.ibanet.org
Click to expand...
Genuine allies or just tolerant of them - for now.
 
20togo said:
Genuine allies or just tolerant of them - for now.
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Allies when their interests align. Like most nations frankly.

That said, there’s a huge difference between a lukewarm ally and an openly belligerent foe. Which is where Israel risk ending up if they carry on the current path. As Hamas no doubt hope they do.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
No I don’t but I’d expect these fellow countries would at least take them in during the current crisis instead of keeping their borders closed.

And I never even mentioned anything about them never returning to their homeland did I?
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Indeed you haven’t, but that’s what always happens 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Once they’d left do you imagine Israel would allow them to return?
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In a word No.

For decades Israel has been trying to put distance (an even bigger no man’s land) between themselves and the Palestinians the further away from the border the better as regards Hamas rocket attacks coming over from Gaza because even before this current war started it’s been pretty much a weekly sometimes a daily ritual where rockets come over into Jewish civilian areas.

Now we all know about the land grabbing over the years carried out Isreal but it still doesn’t make it right to attack civilians same on either side as it’s been the vast majority of civilians caught up in all this it’s just tragic.

Unfortunately I just cannot see a quick solution to it all as Israel will continue with this war until Hamas are eradicated and yes they’ll set up somewhere else in the future but not in the Gaza Strip.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Like it or not, Hamas were elected to form the government in 2006, the fact that they were able to seize power absolutely in 2007 stems from this fact, they are the official voice of the people of Gaza.

In any event, the semantics of whether it was Hamas or the people of Palestine who spoke on 7/10, do not change the material facts, there is no way a viable Palestinian state can be established without it posing an unacceptable security risk to Israel, Hamas has just hammered the final nail into the coffin of the two-state solution.

Oh, and in common with others calling for a "free Palestine", you also refuse to explain what you actually mean by Palestine.
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Please! I don't refuse anything. It gets boring but for one last time: the Palestinian people were expelled from their lands to make way for the new (at that time) Israeli state. Right? The British were instrumental in the build-up to this. The Palestinian people are a displaced people. Agreed? I could go on but to get to the point: Israel has a right to exist( which I have already said previously), the Palestinian people have a right to a homeland, with borders and to live in peace with its neighbours. Israel will never agree to this. You came up with, frankly, a totally ingenious and ludicrous suggestion that "they" maybe get somewhere in god knows where.

My question to you is this: what do you think should happen to the Palestinian people? Ship them off somewhere as you suggested?
One final point: what Israel is doing right now ( for understandable reasons )will not solve the problem. Gaza and the West Bank is becoming a very fruitful recruitment ground(again) for Hamas mark 2 or whatever it may be called.
Cheers
 
Brazil said:
Please! I don't refuse anything. It gets boring but for one last time: the Palestinian people were expelled from their lands to make way for the new (at that time) Israeli state. Right? The British were instrumental in the build-up to this. The Palestinian people are a displaced people. Agreed? I could go on but to get to the point: Israel has a right to exist( which I have already said previously), the Palestinian people have a right to a homeland, with borders and to live in peace with its neighbours. Israel will never agree to this. You came up with, frankly, a totally ingenious and ludicrous suggestion that "they" maybe get somewhere in god knows where.

My question to you is this: what do you think should happen to the Palestinian people? Ship them off somewhere as you suggested?
One final point: what Israel is doing right now ( for understandable reasons )will not solve the problem. Gaza and the West Bank is becoming a very fruitful recruitment ground(again) for Hamas mark 2 or whatever it may be called.
Cheers
Click to expand...
wow, it was Israel who at one point agreed to the two state solution whereas as recent as 2021 a survey conducted by Palestinians themselves said 59% of it's people rejected it. That percentage is increasing. Does that increasing percentage beg the question that they support Hamas?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
In a word No.

For decades Israel has been trying to put distance (an even bigger no man’s land) between themselves and the Palestinians the further away from the border the better as regards Hamas rocket attacks coming over from Gaza because even before this current war started it’s been pretty much a weekly sometimes a daily ritual where rockets come over into Jewish civilian areas.

Now we all know about the land grabbing over the years carried out Isreal but it still doesn’t make it right to attack civilians same on either side as it’s been the vast majority of civilians caught up in all this it’s just tragic.

Unfortunately I just cannot see a quick solution to it all as Israel will continue with this war until Hamas are eradicated and yes they’ll set up somewhere else in the future but not in the Gaza Strip.
Click to expand...

Easy. Israel withdraws from the territory they illegally stole from 1967 onwards.
 
20togo said:
wow, it was Israel who at one point agreed to the two state solution whereas as recent as 2021 a survey conducted by Palestinians themselves said 59% of it's people rejected it. That percentage is increasing.
Click to expand...
Do you really think you can place any reliance upon any kind of survey or poll conducted in a territory controlled by Hamas? Or that the geopolitics of this situation takes any account of what ordinary Israelis and Palestinians want?

It's a bit depressing that some people appear not to understand that there is a humanitarian as well as a political dimension to this problem, and at the moment the Israelis are being led by the nose by Hamas on both fronts. The big winners in the last three or four weeks have been the Iranians, who now have lots of plausible cover, on various levels, for waging their proxy war with Israel.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
Do you really think you can place any reliance upon any kind of survey or poll conducted in a territory controlled by Hamas? Or that the geopolitics of this situation takes any account of what ordinary Israelis and Palestinians want?

It's a bit depressing that some people appear not to understand that there is a humanitarian as well as a political dimension to this problem, and at the moment the Israelis are being led by the nose by Hamas on both fronts. The big winners in the last three or four weeks have been the Iranians, who now have lots of plausible cover, on various levels, for waging their proxy war with Israel.
Click to expand...
yes I do oh learned one. However you want to dress things up it's still the reality of what is happening.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
It's not a case of being learned, though, is it?
Click to expand...
53% favour an armed struggle. Now are you suggesting I shouldn't believe that but I should believe as gospel every daily statement they are putting out? Same of course applies to the other side.,
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
So do you seriously think for one minute that would solve the problem?

No me neither.
Click to expand...
Yes I do.

But I don't seriously think the Zionists would have the humanity to do it.

I remember someone once describing Jordan as between Iraq and a Hard Place.
 
20togo said:
You talk of zionists and humanity but seem to overlook the issue of Hamas using civilians, babies and children as human shields.
Click to expand...
It is not quite so simple as the black and white that you would like.
If the Israelis won't allow civilians to leave Gaza then civilians will be killed if and when Israel attacks Gaza - where does the blame lie for these civilian deaths? You have 2.2 million people living in area that is the size of the Isle of Wight, half of whom are children - presumably these 1.1 million children are not considered to be terrorists. They cannot go anywhere and they are or will be in the middle of a war zone. Collective punishment is against international law.
There should be a ceasefire so that more innocent people are not killed, I see the US is starting to move in that direction, presumably the UK government will be trotting along behind them soon enough.
Israel is also losing a lot of western goodwill with this course of action.
 
Brazil said:
Please! I don't refuse anything. It gets boring but for one last time: the Palestinian people were expelled from their lands to make way for the new (at that time) Israeli state. Right? The British were instrumental in the build-up to this. The Palestinian people are a displaced people. Agreed? I could go on but to get to the point: Israel has a right to exist( which I have already said previously), the Palestinian people have a right to a homeland, with borders and to live in peace with its neighbours. Israel will never agree to this. You came up with, frankly, a totally ingenious and ludicrous suggestion that "they" maybe get somewhere in god knows where.

My question to you is this: what do you think should happen to the Palestinian people? Ship them off somewhere as you suggested?
One final point: what Israel is doing right now ( for understandable reasons )will not solve the problem. Gaza and the West Bank is becoming a very fruitful recruitment ground(again) for Hamas mark 2 or whatever it may be called.
Cheers
Click to expand...
I think you are getting a bit mixed up with your left wing history agenda

A few facts for you;

Most of the people now called Palestinian are actually descendants from immigrants from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt who came to work during the Ottoman rule and the British mandate

I'm unsure how it can be the Jews who are accused of stealing the land when its their ancestral homeland

Jews did not occupy Palestine they bought land legally from Ottoman land laws that the British mandate maintained

For years Jews, Arabs and Christians lived together in relative peace under Ottoman rule, it wasn't until the 1920s that things turned ugly as more Jews bought land legally and the Arabs turned to violence

The first major incidents in the region were the Nebi Musa riots then the Jafa riots and the Hedron massacre, all attacks carried out by Arabs on Jews

I can continue if you want as it's not really hard to find the history of Arabs murdering Jews

It was the UN that pushed for a two state solution and it's been the Arabs who have been breaking the ceasefires every since as they just dont want a Jewish state

The whole thing is a rinse and repeat

Arabs declare war and murder Jews, Israel win and get a bit more land, give some back then it goes on again

Always it's the Arabs who are the aggressors and never have they shown a willingness to live in peace with their Jewish neighbour's. Well not for the last 100 years or so
 
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Sounds like Anthony Blinken is being despatched to have another little chat with the Israeli Government.
Hezbollah announcement due today.
Is it all about to spread further?
Cue another large spike in the oil price and subsequent inflation on top of all the horrendous bloodshed ?
 
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ElBurroSinNombre said:
It is not quite so simple as the black and white that you would like.
If the Israelis won't allow civilians to leave Gaza then civilians will be killed if and when Israel attacks Gaza - where does the blame lie for these civilian deaths? You have 2.2 million people living in area that is the size of the Isle of Wight, half of whom are children - presumably these 1.1 million children are not considered to be terrorists. They cannot go anywhere and they are or will be in the middle of a war zone. Collective punishment is against international law.
There should be a ceasefire so that more innocent people are not killed, I see the US is starting to move in that direction, presumably the UK government will be trotting along behind them soon enough.
Israel is also losing a lot of western goodwill with this course of action.
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I've never claimed it's as simple as black and white. Far from it. Read a lot my posts on the various other threads especially the "war again " one. But Is there anything inaccurate about it? To me, it's you who is making it a black and white issue and totally blaming Israel for what is now happening. To me it seems some of you on here are losing sight of the fact that Israel are fighting for the right to exist.
 
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In other news I see the free Palestine lot want to hold a March on Sat 11th through London very close to the cenotaph which sees us honouring our fallen hero’s on the Sunday.
According to the woke BBC news this morning only Sadiq Khan has the power to stop it.
Absolutely criminal if it’s allowed to go ahead as they can march 52 weeks of the year but why that weekend? Up to 1 million people expected.
No doubt some on here won’t think it’s an issue.
 
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Phil_bfc deux said:
I think you are getting a bit mixed up with your left wing history agenda

A few facts for you;

Most of the people now called Palestinian are actually descendants from immigrants from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt who came to work during the Ottoman rule and the British mandate

I'm unsure how it can be the Jews who are accused of stealing the land when its their ancestral homeland

Jews did not occupy Palestine they bought land legally from Ottoman land laws that the British mandate maintained

For years Jews, Arabs and Christians lived together in relative peace under Ottoman rule, it wasn't until the 1920s that things turned ugly as more Jews bought land legally and the Arabs turned to violence

The first major incidents in the region were the Nebi Musa riots then the Jafa riots and the Hedron massacre, all attacks carried out by Arabs on Jews

I can continue if you want as it's not really hard to find the history of Arabs murdering Jews

It was the UN that pushed for a two state solution and it's been the Arabs who have been breaking the ceasefires every since as they just dont want a Jewish state

The whole thing is a rinse and repeat

Arabs declare war and murder Jews, Israel win and get a bit more land, give some back then it goes on again

Always it's the Arabs who are the aggressors and never have they shown a willingness to live in peace with their Jewish neighbour's. Well not for the last 100 years or so
Click to expand...
seems your post is not worthy of a reply. Wonder why that is? 😉
 
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