Marv +Williams = Problems?

CompleteControl

CompleteControl

Well-known member
During the past few seasons Marv has been one of our best players and i am sure one of the first names on the team sheet. During that time he has always worked well with different combinations of central defenders. However I not sure about him and Williams together. During the last 3 matches we have conceded 7 goals which is way above our average. Marv's passing has got worse and their joint positional sense seems to be very poor at times.

Time for a rethink in central defence ?
 
It’s certainly an area of weakness as things stand. I’d also add Grimshaw into the mix as another inexperienced link in our defensive chain.

I just wonder (for the time being) whether the experience of Maxwell barking orders and guidance to the central defensive pairing might just settle things down a little. Either that or we maybe need to bring in an out of contract older head.
 
CompleteControl said:
During the past few seasons Marv has been one of our best players and i am sure one of the first names on the team sheet. During that time he has always worked well with different combinations of central defenders. However I not sure about him and Williams together. During the last 3 matches we have conceded 7 goals which is way above our average. Marv's passing has got worse and their joint positional sense seems to be very poor at times.

Time for a rethink in central defence ?
Click to expand...
Agreed.
Williams is a liability
Thorniley in there for me


Williams is not physically strong enough

His positional sense in terms of where his team mates are and more importantly where the opposition are is
very poor.

Bench him
 
LANEROSSI said:
Agreed.
Williams is a liability
Thorniley in there for me


Williams is not physically strong enough

His positional sense in terms of where his team mates are and more importantly where the opposition are is
very poor.

Bench him
Click to expand...
mmmm...harsh but yep hard to disagree. Williams had a poor game against Bristol City and didn't Appleton say he took him off at half time because of that. He then picked him against Rovers and I think he had another poor game so yep maybe a chance for Thorniley[or Husband] on sunday.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s certainly an area of weakness as things stand. I’d also add Grimshaw into the mix as another inexperienced link in our defensive chain.

I just wonder (for the time being) whether the experience of Maxwell barking orders and guidance to the central defensive pairing might just settle things down a little. Either that or we maybe need to bring in an out of contract older head.
Click to expand...
Seriously, Grimshaw was fantastic on Wednesday. 🙄
 
If you didn't know, there's no way you'd think that Williams was the prem player between the pair of them.

Problem for me is he's one footed and plays too many square balls so puts us under pressure immediately so we're easy to press against.
 
We need an experienced centre half, similar to Hyam who Rovers had signed from Coventry. Apparently he was shouting instructions to his young players around him. Marv & Williams don’t seem to talk much.
Still chance of a free agent.
 
Halifax71 said:
Seriously, Grimshaw was fantastic on Wednesday. 🙄
Click to expand...
He’s a decent keeper, yes, but I’m not convinced about his organisation and how much he talks to his back four.

The keeper has a great view of the game and needs to be barking out instructions to ensure Marv and Williams are positioned right and don’t get blindsided all the time.

He’s recently conceded a load of goals, got his positioning and organisation wrong for a free kick, spilled a few, nearly (barring a great recovery) given a few goals away through poor / silly distribution and often flaps around and gets outmuscled on corners and free kicks.

I think he was better for having Keogh around, but now our entire back 5 lacks any experience…. So as things stand, yes, I’d be happy to see Maxwell brought back in and to get a bit more organisation as a whole.
 
20togo said:
mmmm...harsh but yep hard to disagree. Williams had a poor game against Bristol City and didn't Appleton say he took him off at half time because of that. He then picked him against Rovers and I think he had another poor game so yep maybe a chance for Thorniley[or Husband] on sunday.
Click to expand...
He said he got a knock but I believe he took him off as he was being found out by Bristols attack. He needs to bring Thorniley back in and bench Williams for now.
 
20togo said:
mmmm...harsh but yep hard to disagree. Williams had a poor game against Bristol City and didn't Appleton say he took him off at half time because of that. He then picked him against Rovers and I think he had another poor game so yep maybe a chance for Thorniley[or Husband] on sunday.
Click to expand...
Think Hubby purely as he is more vocal, and the problems are not down to ability, more organisation
 
I'm certainly not in favour of bringing Maxwell back in but bifster does make some valid points. As said, is he an organiser back there, is he constantly talking to his defence because at the moment teams are getting thru us too easily down the middle. His passing out is often poor and puts players under pressure. And sometimes he often seems to choose to punch rather than what seems a pretty straight forward catch. And postionally he was poor for two of Bristols goals.

All sounds rather harsh but he's a bloody good keeper and he still deserves to keep his place.
 
If you look at the team as a while right now we probably don’t have anyone at all in the first 11 who you’d say was a natural leader / captain.

With every respect to Marv… he’s been given the captaincy by Critch, more to challenge him personally than his leadership skills…

Madine is probably the elder statesmen, but you get no real perspective from his position…. So we’ve got to slot some leadership and experience in there somewhere….

Keogh is increasingly looking like a big loss in what is a very inexperienced team / squad as a whole.
 
Keogh made Marv look better than he is.

Don't get me wrong he's a brilliant center back and makes some great blocks but he isn't confident on the ball and his distribution isn't great.

I'm not sure pairing him with an inexperienced 20 year old lad works. Yet to see anything special from Williams. Thornley must be asking questions.
 
20togo said:
I'm certainly not in favour of bringing Maxwell back in but bifster does make some valid points. As said, is he an organiser back there, is he constantly talking to his defence because at the moment teams are getting thru us too easily down the middle. His passing out is often poor and puts players under pressure. And sometimes he often seems to choose to punch rather than what seems a pretty straight forward catch. And postionally he was poor for two of Bristols goals.

All sounds rather harsh but he's a bloody good keeper and he still deserves to keep his place.
Click to expand...
I'd rather we keep Grimmy as our number 1 and get some additional experience at the heart of our defence. We need a leader and organiser in there.

Also, if Appleton wants to carry on with this playing out from the back, then that player needs to be calm and compised on the ball too.

I've probably just described a £5m defender but it's what we need.
 
FY5_Seasider said:
I'd rather we keep Grimmy as our number 1 and get some additional experience at the heart of our defence. We need a leader and organiser in there.

Also, if Appleton wants to carry on with this playing out from the back, then that player needs to be calm and compised on the ball too.

I've probably just described a £5m defender but it's what we need.
Click to expand...
I’d rather that too, but right now, I’m struggling to see how we shuffle the pack we have to bring in the experience needed.
 
KingZobo said:
Keogh made Marv look better than he is.

Don't get me wrong he's a brilliant center back and makes some great blocks but he isn't confident on the ball and his distribution isn't great.

I'm not sure pairing him with an inexperienced 20 year old lad works. Yet to see anything special from Williams. Thornley must be asking questions.
Click to expand...
Whilst Thornley is not perfect he looks more reliable than Williams.
 
Exactly what Hankey said for me. Marv's distribution and running with the ball has me looking out from behind the sofa. Half expecting the Daleks to turn up I'm that scared.

But the tackles and blocks he's put in week in/out, and especially this year are immense. And of our current availability, he's our no1 CH. If he's going to suit someone more experienced alongside him, then Hubby gets my vote marginally ahead of Thorniley.
 
Don’t see anything wrong with Marv! In fact I think he has been superb on the whole this season, that including his distribution and him on on the ball out of defence. Agree out of the centre half pairing RW looks the more inexperienced but I’m hoping he will grow into the position as he is obviously well thought of. And if not Thorniley is a more than capable replacement, always given 100% for the team.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s certainly an area of weakness as things stand. I’d also add Grimshaw into the mix as another inexperienced link in our defensive chain.

I just wonder (for the time being) whether the experience of Maxwell barking orders and guidance to the central defensive pairing might just settle things down a little. Either that or we maybe need to bring in an out of contract older head.
Click to expand...
I'd be more inclined to play Husband. He's played with Marv before and has the nous to talk through the game.
 
Not sure dropping Williams to the bench will do him any favours. Maybe show a bit of patience and give them a bit longer to learn each other’s game. If he’s still struggling then I would bring in Husband, only because he’s a bit quicker than thornily.
 
Wizaard said:
I'd be more inclined to play Husband. He's played with Marv before and has the nous to talk through the game.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure… William’s offers a big height advantage, though right now it’s probably the best chance Husband might have of getting back into the side.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
If you look at the team as a while right now we probably don’t have anyone at all in the first 11 who you’d say was a natural leader / captain.

With every respect to Marv… he’s been given the captaincy by Critch, more to challenge him personally than his leadership skills…

Madine is probably the elder statesmen, but you get no real perspective from his position…. So we’ve got to slot some leadership and experience in there somewhere….

Keogh is increasingly looking like a big loss in what is a very inexperienced team / squad as a whole.
Click to expand...
Probably a mad idea but Madine is not the answer up front,he is not mobile enough. Could he do a Dion Dublin and cover cb?
He is good on defending corners and the offside rule is second nature to him and he has football nous and would certainly be vocal.
 
tangysider said:
Probably a mad idea but Madine is not the answer up front,he is not mobile enough. Could he do a Dion Dublin and cover cb?
He is good on defending corners and the offside rule is second nature to him and he has football nous and would certainly be vocal.
Click to expand...
Nowhere near mobile enough I’d say…
 
Play all 3 with Thornily on the left and Williams on the right with the full backs higher up and overlapping when in possession , also helping the midfield who seem to have been overrun in the last few games
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
He’s a decent keeper, yes, but I’m not convinced about his organisation and how much he talks to his back four.

The keeper has a great view of the game and needs to be barking out instructions to ensure Marv and Williams are positioned right and don’t get blindsided all the time.

He’s recently conceded a load of goals, got his positioning and organisation wrong for a free kick, spilled a few, nearly (barring a great recovery) given a few goals away through poor / silly distribution and often flaps around and gets outmuscled on corners and free kicks.

I think he was better for having Keogh around, but now our entire back 5 lacks any experience…. So as things stand, yes, I’d be happy to see Maxwell brought back in and to get a bit more organisation as a whole.
Click to expand...
I remember Peter Shilton saying a good keeper shouldn't have to keep making saves. He should have his defence organised to prevent shots coming in. Grimshaw is not the finished article IMO.
 
Williams I think reads the game quite well most of the time, but he does have lapses of concentration and has an occasional tendency to get dragged out of position. playing out from the back is where we have the bigger issue and where we seem to put ourselves under a lot of needless pressure. Williams is good on the ball, but he does seem to be very very right footed, so opponents press him to the left which usually means an inappropriate pass to Thompson who is often not in enough space to do much with it. I think Thorniley at the moment is a better option ( I think a back three is actually a better option but WTF do I know) because he reads the game slightly better and he has a better distribution from that side of the pitch. Thorniley is susceptible to an overhead ball but he is good in the air and can outjump a lot of taller players particularly when he attacks the ball, and he doesn't have Williams' pace.

There isn't a single team in the Champs that can play out from the back confidently without making several errors during a game, and our defence is no exception.

Grimmy as good a keeper as he is - is making a good half dozen simple distribution errors every game at the moment, which I think opposing coaches are focusing on in games.
 
Marv is doing the job of 2 when Williams plays.

Williams is slow and positionally poor because of that. He never covers behind Marv, whereas Marv has made some great covering tackles to help out Williams.

3 of our back 4 move across as you’d expect of a defensive unit, but Williams plays in straight lines up & down. He’s rarely where he needs to be.

Grimshaw is a top keeper, the saves he makes Maxwell coukd only dream about. Ok, like all passing keepers he makes some mistakes, but he’s one of the very best in the Championship. A major asset to us, we’re very lucky to have him.

Marv is a quality defender, but as with most in that position, his passing can be suspect. Again, one of the best in the Championship.

Gabriel and Thommo, both excellent players, modern day full backs. Again, up there with the best in the Championship.

The weak link is very obvious and its impacting badly on the team. If Williams wasn’t from Liverpool he’d not be playing. He’s not going to improve or get quicker. Forget souring relationships with Liverpool, MA needs to drop him. For me, Williams will find his level in Div 1.
 
Halifax71 said:
Seriously, Grimshaw was fantastic on Wednesday. 🙄
Click to expand...
Of course, you are right. Grimshaw was good and helped to keep the score down. However, X3 has a point. Maxwell is a good organiser and cajoler. The defence needs that and, had Keogh not left, I would put him straight into the Williams position without a second thought.
 
Trammo said:
Shame Shilts didn't organise the defence to stop Jan Domarski scoring- a shot he should have saved even allowing for Hunter's feck up lunge- Wembley 1973 v Poland.⚽️
Click to expand...
What about getting beat on his line after the deflected free kick in the SF WC 1990
 
TimperleyTangerine said:
Marv is doing the job of 2 when Williams plays.

Williams is slow and positionally poor because of that. He never covers behind Marv, whereas Marv has made some great covering tackles to help out Williams.

3 of our back 4 move across as you’d expect of a defensive unit, but Williams plays in straight lines up & down. He’s rarely where he needs to be.

Grimshaw is a top keeper, the saves he makes Maxwell coukd only dream about. Ok, like all passing keepers he makes some mistakes, but he’s one of the very best in the Championship. A major asset to us, we’re very lucky to have him.

Marv is a quality defender, but as with most in that position, his passing can be suspect. Again, one of the best in the Championship.

Gabriel and Thommo, both excellent players, modern day full backs. Again, up there with the best in the Championship.

The weak link is very obvious and its impacting badly on the team. If Williams wasn’t from Liverpool he’d not be playing. He’s not going to improve or get quicker. Forget souring relationships with Liverpool, MA needs to drop him. For me, Williams will find his level in Div 1.
Click to expand...
spot on. I'll also add about Williams is how he likes to run back slowly chasing a player with his arm raised in the hope that players are offside.
 
20togo said:
mmmm...harsh but yep hard to disagree. Williams had a poor game against Bristol City and didn't Appleton say he took him off at half time because of that. He then picked him against Rovers and I think he had another poor game so yep maybe a chance for Thorniley[or Husband] on sunday.
Click to expand...
Most of us seem to be saying the same thing so surely MA can see that. Possibly he doesn't want to annoy Liverpool by dropping him so soon but that should not be a reason to keep him in if he's not performing. To me, I'd be surprised if Liverpool saw him as a future member of their defence. He seems weak and very slow. I know that sounds harsh but I think it's true.
 
CGP1 said:
Exactly what Hankey said for me. Marv's distribution and running with the ball has me looking out from behind the sofa. Half expecting the Daleks to turn up I'm that scared.

But the tackles and blocks he's put in week in/out, and especially this year are immense. And of our current availability, he's our no1 CH. If he's going to suit someone more experienced alongside him, then Hubby gets my vote marginally ahead of Thorniley.
Click to expand...
That’s why we need the CDM to drop deep and take the short passes off the central defenders, otherwise it’s squeaky bum time or lumping the ball up field to the opposition!
 
Wizaard said:
I'd be more inclined to play Husband. He's played with Marv before and has the nous to talk through the game.
Click to expand...
Agree with this, the Hubster is a senior pro and a good talker too, though Thorniley would do for me as well. We are clearly missing the Keogh influence. Williams not quite up to it so far for me and he's had a good few games. He switches off.
 
Its simple for me. They play too far apart and neither assumes the role of the sweeper (which is Marv). In the second half Marv sat a bit deeper than Williams which probably means that Appleton sees the same problem. Williams seems to play in too narrow a channel
 
Cuthbert said:
Its simple for me. They play too far apart and neither assumes the role of the sweeper (which is Marv). In the second half Marv sat a bit deeper than Williams which probably means that Appleton sees the same problem. Williams seems to play in too narrow a channel
Click to expand...
great summing up. 👍
 
Rhys Williams is a ball watcher. That’s OK if we are on the edge of our own box, but if we are holding a high line……it’s lethal.
 
Marv has way more credit in the bank than Williams and this thread shows it. Williams hasn’t had as many shockers or given the ball away anywhere near as much as Marv has.

It’s been a poor start for Marv this season bar one or two games.
 
Thompson will be due a ban soon as he gets booked most games. So for at least one game, I assume, Husband will play at left back. Husband better defensively sense & presence than Thompson. Williams might not look as shaky with a more defensive full back next to him?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top