OT - Mason Greenwood

No, it's not. It's completely the wrong route. A person should follow due legal process at first i.e. go to the Police...
Otherwise you get "trial by social media", the "mob mentality" etc as demonstrated by some of the comments on here.
Just imagine if it was you being accused on social media of something unpleasant - which does of course happen to many "ordinary people" all the time. What hope for justice in this country if people believe what someone posts without proper, legal investigations. That's why we have a legal system - with a 12 person jury for serious crimes to decide the outcome. I find it shocking that many people think this is the right route for proper "justice"...
Btw, if, after a proper criminal investigation, he is found guilty, then he deserves a long prison sentence.
It's not for you decide whether it is right or not.

If someone was innocent of such a crime then surely the voice recordings and photos could be pulled apart. Indeed it would be a bizarre and hugely complex and elaborate hoax for a "fake" victim to even conceive let alone pull off.

And so if you were being abused i, and I'm sure millions of others, have no problem with it being captured and broadcast by mobile phone.
 
I have only just opened this thread and listened to the recording which is horrific, I haven’t even seen the photographs and don’t really want to.

I echo what other people have said, the last thing anybody would want is for him to get off on a technicality that he couldn’t get a fair trial because he has already been tried on the social media and so it is impossible to get an impartial jury

Can anybody on here honestly say that they have not already formed an opinion as to his guilt or otherwise?
 
This guy needs putting away. I read today that he’s gonna claim that it was role play which is terrifying. If he claims that and the defence argues that her injuries are self inflicted then it’s literally a get out of jail free card.
 
It has just been announced that Mason Greenwood has been released on police bail pending further enquiries. Presumably the Crown Prosecution Service were not satisfied with the evidence presented to them. As is always the case there is obviously more to this then has been released on social media
 
It has just been announced that Mason Greenwood has been released on police bail pending further enquiries. Presumably the Crown Prosecution Service were not satisfied with the evidence presented to them. As is always the case there is obviously more to this then has been released on social media

There's a limit to how long the police are allowed to hold you without charge, enquiries are obviously ongoing and they don't want to risk running out the clock.
 
This guy needs putting away. I read today that he’s gonna claim that it was role play which is terrifying. If he claims that and the defence argues that her injuries are self inflicted then it’s literally a get out of jail free card.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, I can see a scenario how it could have been staged for some sort of gain.

Not saying I believe that, but it is possible.
 
I have only just opened this thread and listened to the recording which is horrific, I haven’t even seen the photographs and don’t really want to.

I echo what other people have said, the last thing anybody would want is for him to get off on a technicality that he couldn’t get a fair trial because he has already been tried on the social media and so it is impossible to get an impartial jury

Can anybody on here honestly say that they have not already formed an opinion as to his guilt or otherwise?
To be honest (personally) the last thing that I’d be interested in is leaving it to the judicial system. Far better that he’s judged in the court of public opinion and hopefully given a regular kicking.

Courts don’t deal in justice they deal in judgements….
 
Tell you one thing, I don’t for a second believe that Greater Manchester Police would be moving as quickly and doing things like adding additional arrests and extending bail if she’d gone quietly and presented the evidence discreetly.
I agree. And he would have expensive lawyers to bury the evidence to prevent it from getting in the public domain to show what a scumbag he is
 
Did I say that…?

Yes you did.

The court of public opinion is whatever sells the most newspapers, gets the most likes on twitter or otherwise tells whatever story the majority of the public wants to hear, if you think it's reliable and the courts are not then I don't know what to say.
 
Yes you did.

The court of public opinion is whatever sells the most newspapers, gets the most likes on twitter or otherwise tells whatever story the majority of the public wants to hear, if you think it's reliable and the courts are not then I don't know what to say.
No I didn't .... You have taken a sentence out of context from the comment that I was responding to and without the context of the preceding sentence and then you have attached your own meaning to that sentence and then decided that was my intended meaning.

What I said was, that as I look at it from a personal perspective, I wouldn't be interested in whether or not the courts decided that he couldn't get a fair trial as I wouldn't particularly care for the judicial process in any case. And to that extent, I would view the Court of Public opinion as a far better place to achieve what I would consider to be justice, than through the courts. So to me it's better to publish and rely on the court of Public Opinion to judge, than to rely on the courts.

Whether I personally believe everything I read in the Press or on Twitter is of no consequence, because I'm not discussing the matter of whether or not I believe him to be guilty, or what the best process might be for determining whether or not an individual might be guilty. That's a completely different discussion altogether.
 
No I didn't .... You have taken a sentence out of context from the comment that I was responding to and without the context of the preceding sentence and then you have attached your own meaning to that sentence and then decided that was my intended meaning.

Sorry, but the remainder of the post did not change what you said, which was that the court of public opinion is a reliable judge of anything.


What I said was, that as I look at it from a personal perspective, I wouldn't be interested in whether or not the courts decided that he couldn't get a fair trial as I wouldn't particularly care for the judicial process in any case. And to that extent, I would view the Court of Public opinion as a far better place to achieve what I would consider to be justice, than through the courts. So to me it's better to publish and rely on the court of Public Opinion to judge, than to rely on the courts.

Firstly arguments about a fair trial almost never succeed in this country, in fact I can't recall ever hearing of a case where they did and you would likely need to bring Jimmy Saville back from the dead to find one that might succeed.

Secondly, in the unlikely event that the courts did decide that the reporting and social media coverage was so extremely prejudicial that he couldn't possibly get a fair trial then how of earth can you think that the court of public opinion is reliable?
 
Totally agree.

However BFC x3. What suggestion do you have for subsequent scenarios where social media is used to mislead for reasons of revenge or otherwise? Is this not reason a legal system was first instigated? Or is trial by social media the blueprint for the future? Do you think that will work out well once righteous indignation at horrible individuals has been satiated?

With such strong evidence surely the first recourse would be a trip down the police station that would have set the wheels in motion and ensured the matter was dealt with in an appropriate way?

I'd worry that going public on social media (never a good idea generally right?) will allow for obfuscation. However, I am not educated in the legal process like others on here.
The current legal system has roots in the Middle Ages and simply doesn't cater for the social media age.
No, it's not. It's completely the wrong route. A person should follow due legal process at first i.e. go to the Police...
Otherwise you get "trial by social media", the "mob mentality" etc as demonstrated by some of the comments on here.
Just imagine if it was you being accused on social media of something unpleasant - which does of course happen to many "ordinary people" all the time. What hope for justice in this country if people believe what someone posts without proper, legal investigations. That's why we have a legal system - with a 12 person jury for serious crimes to decide the outcome. I find it shocking that many people think this is the right route for proper "justice"...
Btw, if, after a proper criminal investigation, he is found guilty, then he deserves a long prison sentence.
Going to the police wouldn't work in many cases, as seen in yesterday's story about Charing Cross station, where there was and maybe still is, a culture of misogyny, racism and homophobia. Sometimes you don't have another option.
 
Sorry, but the remainder of the post did not change what you said, which was that the court of public opinion is a reliable judge of anything.




Firstly arguments about a fair trial almost never succeed in this country, in fact I can't recall ever hearing of a case where they did and you would likely need to bring Jimmy Saville back from the dead to find one that might succeed.

Secondly, in the unlikely event that the courts did decide that the reporting and social media coverage was so extremely prejudicial that he couldn't possibly get a fair trial then how of earth can you think that the court of public opinion is reliable?
It seems my more forthright comment has been moderated unfortunately...

Let me put it more politely...

There's no point in me engaging in a discussion with you if you are going to presume to tell me what I think, meant or wrote. I clarified the meaning, which was clear enough when taken in context.

I'm not suggesting that the court of public opinion is a reliable judge of anything... However, personally, if I were the victim, then I prefer the option of putting it out there and essentially letting the public be the judge, than I do wasting time with the courts...
 
In my experience the “court of public opinion“ results in some chav daubing the word PEEDO on some poor unfortunate persons door because somebody down the road told them that he is a wrong ‘un

I think I read a suggestion that the family of the alleged victim should take a baseball bat to Greenwoods legs. presumably those people will compensate him for his lost earnings if it turns out that he is innocent.

As bendit says the presumption of guilt certainly does pre-date social media (did I read he is an ex police officer so he will probably understand that) but it has certainly got worse with the proliferation of social media apps
 
In my experience the “court of public opinion“ results in some chav daubing the word PEEDO on some poor unfortunate persons door because somebody down the road told them that he is a wrong ‘un

I think I read a suggestion that the family of the alleged victim should take a baseball bat to Greenwoods legs. presumably those people will compensate him for his lost earnings if it turns out that he is innocent.

As bendit says the presumption of guilt certainly does pre-date social media (did I read he is an ex police officer so he will probably understand that) but it has certainly got worse with the proliferation of social media apps
That's somewhat different though isn't it.... You're looking it from the perspective of a supposed wrongly accused individual...

If you are the 'Victim' of a crime, then you know what happened. (so there's no room for getting it wrong).. In fact, in the case of this type of crime, you are probably one of only two people who do actually know exactly what happened....

So looking at it from that point of view, it really wouldn't matter to you that someone daubed PAEDO on your abusers door or whether or not he got a kicking.... As I said the other day, if it were my daughter, then I'd be the one giving the kicking and exacting my own form of 'justice'....

Better that than fanny around with the Court System, where victims are subject to more abuse and in the unlikely event that the court makes the right decision, the abuser gets a pathetic sentence in any case...
 
Unfortunately, though, it isn’t as simple as that. I have seen so many cases of somebody crying rape out of guilt for cheating on a boyfriend for example.

It seems to me that the “victim“ will persuade themselves that they did not consent.

Following investigation evidence comes out that completely undermines the complaint for example CCTV, Digital evidence and quite often the complainant realises what they have done and comes clean.

In those cases the person who has made the false complaint usually ends up with a fixed penalty notice of £120 for wasting police time rather than being prosecuted for trying to ruin someone’s life.

In the meantime though the complainants family could, following your logic, mete out their own form of justice to the falsely accused person

It is far far more common than you would ever believe

Leave it to the courts. It ain’t perfect but it’s better than letting angry people decide on who’s guilty
 
Unfortunately, though, it isn’t as simple as that. I have seen so many cases of somebody crying rape out of guilt for cheating on a boyfriend for example.

It seems to me that the “victim“ will persuade themselves that they did not consent.

Following investigation evidence comes out that completely undermines the complaint for example CCTV, Digital evidence and quite often the complainant realises what they have done and comes clean.

In those cases the person who has made the false complaint usually ends up with a fixed penalty notice of £120 for wasting police time rather than being prosecuted for trying to ruin someone’s life.

In the meantime though the complainants family could, following your logic, mete out their own form of justice to the falsely accused person

It is far far more common than you would ever believe

Leave it to the courts. It ain’t perfect but it’s better than letting angry people decide on who’s guilty
Well it is as simple as that really isn't it.... As I said, if you are the Victim of the kind of abuse alleged here, then you know exactly what happened... I'm not getting into the kind of Gaslighting that Abusers and Lawyers will adopt to try and convince victims that they can't actually trust their own mind....

And as long as YOU KNOW in yourself as the victim what happened, then it doesn't matter to you whether the Abuser gets a kicking... In fact you'd probably be delighted if he did.

Incidentally, I'm not saying what the legally or possibly even morally correct thing to do in the circumstances is.... (Again that's entirely different)... I'm saying what I would do....

I'd like to think I know my own daughter well enough to trust her word on matter like that....But if I got it wrong and gave someone a kicking that didn't deserve it...That's a chance I'd be prepared to take (along with all the consequences).
 
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Well it is as simple as that really isn't it.... As I said, if you are the Victim of the kind of abuse alleged here, then you know exactly what happened... I'm not getting into the kind of Gaslighting that Abusers and Lawyers will adopt to try and convince victims that they can't actually trust their own mind....

And as long as YOU KNOW in yourself as the victim what happened, then it doesn't matter to you whether the Abuser gets a kicking... In fact you'd probably be delighted if he did.

Incidentally, I'm not saying what the legally or possibly even morally correct thing to do in the circumstances is.... (Again that's entirely different)... I'm saying what I would do....

I'd like to think I know my own daughter well enough to trust her word on matter like that....But if I got it wrong and gave someone a kicking that didn't deserve it...That's a chance I'd be prepared to take (along with all the consequences).
But you aren’t talking about the victim taking the law into their own hands, you are talking about family, who presumably weren’t there so don’t know what happened
 
But you aren’t talking about the victim taking the law into their own hands, you are talking about family, who presumably weren’t there so don’t know what happened
Yes... Initially I was talking about the Victim and what I would choose to do in similar circumstances... I'm basically saying that as a victim, I would prefer the option of Public shaming and everything that might go with it, to legal procedure.

That said, if it was my child, again (as I've said) unless I had a very good reason not to, I would trust their word and deal with the matter as I saw fit. I agree there's a small possibility that I might get it wrong and I also agree that wouldn't be the correct legal approach and I also accept that I would be subject to possible prosecution for doing so, however yet again, I prefer the option of imposing my own justice to relying on the court... So as a father, I'd simply deal with it and take any consequences with open arms.
 
Yes... Initially I was talking about the Victim and what I would choose to do in similar circumstances... I'm basically saying that as a victim, I would prefer the option of Public shaming and everything that might go with it, to legal procedure.

That said, if it was my child, again (as I've said) unless I had a very good reason not to, I would trust their word and deal with the matter as I saw fit. I agree there's a small possibility that I might get it wrong and I also agree that wouldn't be the correct legal approach and I also accept that I would be subject to possible prosecution for doing so, however yet again, I prefer the option of imposing my own justice to relying on the court... So as a father, I'd simply deal with it and take any consequences with open arms.
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Even if you get it right it’s hard to support your loved one after they’ve been a victim of crime if you’re in prison serving 6 years for gbh
 
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Even if you get it right it’s hard to support your loved one after they’ve been a victim of crime if you’re in prison serving 6 years for gbh
There's nothing to disagree about.... Because, it's my choice not yours... I fully appreciate what is right for me, might not be right for you and as I've said, I also acknowledge it might not be the morally or legally correct choice... That doesn't change the fact that it would be the right choice for me.

Likewise, it's the Victims choice to do what is right for them... They're not obliged to follow set procedures or some kind of pre-determined code of practice. In reality, they would never need to choose between the legal option and public shaming option in any case, because there isn't a cat in hells chance that the courts would throw it out on the 'unfair trial' argument....
 
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The whole thing is horrible, having AVFTT self appointed legal experts dissecting it is also horrible.

If you don't believe she should have used social media then shut the fuck up about it on social media.
Bit pompous that Lytham. It’s a matter of huge public interest and a valid topic for debate 👎
 
The current legal system has roots in the Middle Ages and simply doesn't cater for the social media age.

Going to the police wouldn't work in many cases, as seen in yesterday's story about Charing Cross station, where there was and maybe still is, a culture of misogyny, racism and homophobia. Sometimes you don't have another option.
But he isn’t middle aged Wiz?
 
Bifster, you're accused of a heinous crime you know that you haven't done.
Meanwhile, whilst the police are collating evidence, the family of the accuser decide to dish out their own punishment on you that leaves you on life support.

You'd be ok with that because the family believe the accuser?
 
The hardest bit will be getting her to cooperate although I believe police can press charges without her consent. Looks to me like they've had a pissed up argument and she's posted this stuff in anger. She's probably woke up the next day, realised what's she's done and deleted them. Problem is you can never delete anything from the internet as millions had already seen it.
 
Bifster, you're accused of a heinous crime you know that you haven't done.
Meanwhile, whilst the police are collating evidence, the family of the accuser decide to dish out their own punishment on you that leaves you on life support.

You'd be ok with that because the family believe the accuser?
I’d accept and understand their motivation.

Of course, as we know, things don’t quite work like that in the real world and that’s the difference between the magic world of the courts, where crimes are simply made to disappear by slight of hand, vs the real world, where you can ‘encourage’ the truth out of someone.
 
I’d accept and understand their motivation.

Of course, as we know, things don’t quite work like that in the real world and that’s the difference between the magic world of the courts, where crimes are simply made to disappear by slight of hand, vs the real world, where you can ‘encourage’ the truth out of someone.
So you'd actively encourage the police to torture interviewees to extract the truth?
 
So you'd actively encourage the police to torture interviewees to extract the truth?
What on earth are you on about…. stop trying to put words into peoples mouths just to create an argument.

No I wouldn’t and I never suggested anything about the Police torturing anyone.

What I’m saying is that, I would be able to go, speak to the person who is accused and get the truth out of them.

I’ve also not suggested that anyone else should adopt my approach or that it is right or legal… What I’ve said is that it would be right for me….
 
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Not putting words into your mouth at all Bifster.
You said that it'd be ok to "extract" the truth, therefore wouldn't it be ok for the police to extract it?
Or is just for the angry families to dish out?
 
Not putting words into your mouth at all Bifster.
You said that it'd be ok to "extract" the truth, therefore wouldn't it be ok for the police to extract it?
Or is just for the angry families to dish out?
I didn't even mention the word "extract", I used the word 'encourage'. I also didn't say that it was OK for families to dish out their own retribution either, in fact I have acknowledged that it isn't OK and recognised that it would be subject to prosecution.

As for the Police, they have a different role to play as their job is constrained by the limitations of the legal system and following the correct procedure. So it ought to be obvious really that it wouldn't be OK for the Police to do anything that fell outside their legal duty.
 
I didn't even mention the word "extract", I used the word 'encourage'. I also didn't say that it was OK for families to dish out their own retribution either, in fact I have acknowledged that it isn't OK and recognised that it would be subject to prosecution.

As for the Police, they have a different role to play as their job is constrained by the limitations of the legal system and following the correct procedure. So it ought to be obvious really that it wouldn't be OK for the Police to do anything that fell outside their legal duty.
You have already found him guilty. Maybe you could be the hangman of AVFTT.
 
You have already found him guilty. Maybe you could be the hangman of AVFTT.
I'm not sure I have found him guilty though have I!!? What I have said, is that in these types of cases I tend to presume guilt, because that way I'm right in the majority of cases.

It's up to a Jury to decide the legal status of his guilt
 
I‘ve always said ‘if guilty ‘ so no apologies here.

Be very interesting to hear how or why she bust her own lip 💁‍♀️

Will watch this closely see if any charges come about as let’s not rule that out yet either.
 
I‘ve always said ‘if guilty ‘ so no apologies here.

Be very interesting to hear how or why she bust her own lip 💁‍♀️

Will watch this closely see if any charges come about as let’s not rule that out yet either.
People would rather hold on to the idea that she might have staged the whole thing..... It's literally built into our psyche to think in such extreme terms and focus on that as opposed to believing the victim. Let's face it, many of our founding 'patriarchal' belief systems accept that it was OK to beat a 'Bad' Wife and rape within a marriage was only made illegal in the UK in 1994.
 
People would rather hold on to the idea that she might have staged the whole thing..... It's literally built into our psyche to think in such extreme terms and focus on that as opposed to believing the victim. Let's face it, many of our founding 'patriarchal' belief systems accept that it was OK to beat a 'Bad' Wife and rape within a marriage was only made illegal in the UK in 1994.

I've highlighted the key word for you.

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that somebody might attempt to entrap a multi-millionaire footballer for the purpose of extortion? Is it possible that the entrapment might entail allegations of sexual violence?

A simple yes/no will suffice.
 
I've highlighted the key word for you.

Is it beyond the bounds of possibility that somebody might attempt to entrap a multi-millionaire footballer for the purpose of extortion? Is it possible that the entrapment might entail allegations of sexual violence?

A simple yes/no will suffice.
As an individual, I have no need to concern myself with whether something sits within 'the bounds of possibility', I simply rely on probability and what is likely to be the most probable outcome, based on the available information.

Feel free to drop the L.A. Lawyer act.... 🤡
 
As an individual, I have no need to concern myself with whether something sits within 'the bounds of possibility', I simply rely on probability and what is likely to be the most probable outcome, based on the available information.

Feel free to drop the L.A. Lawyer act.... 🤡

Well to be honest I've no idea what point you're trying to make, and since you think anyone who disagrees with you is a clown who can f*** off I really don't think it's worth the effort trying to work it out.

Feel free to carry on with the wanabe Clyde Shelton act.
 
I'm not sure I have found him guilty though have I!!? What I have said, is that in these types of cases I tend to presume guilt, because that way I'm right in the majority of cases.

It's up to a Jury to decide the legal status of his guilt
The problem with you hangman, you struggle to abide by the laws of the land. Off with your head the Queen should be saying to you.
 
Well to be honest I've no idea what point you're trying to make, and since you think anyone who disagrees with you is a clown who can f*** off I really don't think it's worth the effort trying to work it out.

Feel free to carry on with the wanabe Clyde Shelton act.
I have no problem disagreeing with me, but I do have a big problem with people who presume to tell me what I think or try to twist my words out of context.
 
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