So the World is shut

Scaramanga said:
Put it this way I’m still working, was the idea not to flatten the curve to give the NHS time to get their act together ? We have done this and are now much more prepared to cope with an influx of patients.
there isn’t a never ending money tree and I’m pretty sure the damage to people’s lives will be massive if we have to lock down for months, the economic loss to people’s lives will be felt for decades. Don’t get me wrong this isn’t just about the economy but we need to get people through the immunity phase otherwise this will just go on and on. Would it not be better to push for a test that tells us if you have had the virus that way people could get on with life wearing say. Green bracelet so people know they have an immunity. The figures world wide are seriously distorted and too many people are putting too much faith in figures from other countries.
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You are making a major assumption. As yet, there is no evidence for immunity, even short term.
 
It looks quite clear that so far the peak deaths was reached back on April 8th (the actual date of death rather than the different date they were reported on). Not far from being 3 weeks beyond that peak.
And still no meaningful work has been published which reliably indicates how many of the population have actually had the virus. A very very important number to know, without which no meaningful conclusions about risk can be drawn.
It tells us whether this is a highly dangerous virus or less risky than other health problems which are causing more deaths than normal right now.
 
Essential workers can log on tomorrow for a test. Wonder how far we'll have to travel to get one?
 
Scaramanga said:
The curve is flattening, there are thousands of extra beds, more ventilators, tons of ppe and a greater knowledge and understanding than we have had. Now is the time to stop the lockdown and revert to herd immunity. If not now when and how, we can’t carry on like this for ever, in this situation with millions of unaffected people there will be a spike. It’s inevitable so let’s just get on with it, the sooner we’re all out there the sooner we all gain immunity and it goes away. Answers on a post card please.
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Aren't you the one near the start of this thread who said we should lock down the borders: nobody in, nobody out and that we would then soon get it under control?
Perhaps the scientists and medics are the ones to be trusted here and not politicians and message board 'experts.'
 
You mean the scientists and medical professionals that at the beginning pushed to herd immunity theory only to be shot down in flames by the know it alls and change their plan to the one we have now that everyone is now saying isn’t fit for purpose. Yes ok them ones.
 
Oh and reference I still believe once of the quickest ways to beat this WAS to close all commercial flights with immediate effect. That would of given us half a chance of containing it and w3 might actually now have half an idea on how to ease the lock down.
 
12/03 I posted this. Weeks before lockdown.

And I, as many others were very scared.

40,300 people later it seems that I, and most other people were right. Why weren't the government as worried?
 
Macseasider said:
Regardless - they have made a decision contrary to the rest of Europe. I'd like to know why given the horrific goings on in Italy. Why not try and prevent this? Ireland has 1 recorded victim and has shut down schools and colleges. Why would social distancing from the early days NOT be a good idea? Why is our government doing different to others? How can Boris stand and say how grave the situation is yet simply say continue to wash your hands and we'll review stuff? Surely the time is now?
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Yes is was Mac.
 
Scaramanga said:
The curve is flattening, there are thousands of extra beds, more ventilators, tons of ppe and a greater knowledge and understanding than we have had. Now is the time to stop the lockdown and revert to herd immunity. If not now when and how, we can’t carry on like this for ever, in this situation with millions of unaffected people there will be a spike. It’s inevitable so let’s just get on with it, the sooner we’re all out there the sooner we all gain immunity and it goes away. Answers on a post card please.
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This is UTTER crap. The very WORST post on AVFTT.

Let people die.

Just reminding people what was said :0)
 
Western Australia have opened up bars and restaurants again. We’ve had hard border closes with mandatory 14 day quarantine in hotels for returning residents since almost the start. The only cases here now are returning international travellers and commercial sailers.
 
Well looking back if Mac had been Prime minister he would of saved roughly 30,000 lives.

if Scaramanga had been prime minister he would have killed roughly half a million .
 
The argument about Boris Johnson has gone from -
He's doing a good job. -----> he deserves our support
The whole world is struggling. -----> we can't expect any better
Now is not the time to question -----> it's just political point scoring
Everybody will make mistakes. -----> he's doing the right things now
We can look at how it was handled later -----> give everybody a chance to forget

At least the number of defenders has dropped as each week of lies and propaganda has passed by.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I think you’ve just proved Mac’s point

If we’d locked down earlier....like France;

We would’ve:

Saved more lives....like France; and

Been out of lockdown....like France; and

Restarting the economy....like France.
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We locked down in line with the spread of the virus in Europe mex
 
Mexboroseasider said:
We locked down too late Scara.

Which was the point of the Op; all those months ago.
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Mex, look even when we did lockdown the people never really locked down, trust me I’ve worked right through. We never achieved what the rest of Europe did as we won’t be told. The people.
 
Scaramanga said:
Mex, look even when we did lockdown the people never really locked down, trust me I’ve worked right through. We never achieved what the rest of Europe did as we won’t be told. The people.
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That’s just not true.

After a bit of a wobbly start the vast majority of the people complied with the lockdown.

To blame “The People” is just another attempt to distract attention away from the people who are really responsible. There’s no getting away from it - Mac was spot on from Day 1 and all his critics on this thread look a bit silly.
 
Halifax71 said:
maybe they're giving due consideration to the implications of shutting up shop. The effects will be significant and long lasting. Many businesses wont recover.
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France and Italy were in a far stricter lockdown longer than us. They seem to be coping without worrying over much about the economy at the expense of lives.
 
Wizaard said:
Or gloating about Brexit or the last election.
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I'm sure that Mac will admit that he's no medical or scientific expert and his predictions were based on no small amount of luck rather than judgement. And maybe his political leanings came in to play.
I'm still not convinced the so called experts know what to expect with this virus, so I'm far from convinced a poster on here did
Whereas with Brexit and the GE, it was patently obvious which was the right way to vote. It's just that some people were too stupid to listen. They were too busy spouting their fake socialism and bile to listen.
And for being that stupid you deserve your noses rubbing in it. 😉
 
I've deleted my original response as I had completely overlooked the date of Macc's OP ; I'd assumed he had written it in the last day or two when clearly he hadn't.

As such, my criticism of him was very unfair, even if I think he has written some indifferent stuff lately. Sorry Macc.
 
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Macseasider said:
Apart from good old Blighty. Business as usual.

Whilst Rome burns Boris and his cronies fumble about blustering about following science resulting in them contradicting everything WHO have asked. Absolute disgrace.
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Without Boris we would be in a bad way right now. He is a great leader and a breath of fresh air to the party after remoaner May. She cost me a tv when I smashed it. Do not believe the left wing media such as the BBC, C4, Sky news (UK) or CNN. We are in good hands.
 
basilrobbie said:
I don't understand the OP at all. Looks like you started from a decision you were going to slate the Government and then scratched around looking for a poor excuse to justify it. Most of Europe is staring to emerge from lockdown, and has better reasons to do so. But countries like India, Brazil and USA are also doing so - and they don't.

As for the WHO, they are flip-flopping all over the place themselves ; it is hard to "follow the science" when the WHO's own advice changes as much and as often as it has.

There are any number of legitimate reasons to criticise the Government. You could have chosen any one of them, but not only did you not do so, you just posted an incoherent load of fulminating bollocks. Really poor post, one of quite a few from you lately. "Absolute disgrace". 😛
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You've just put in to words exactly what I wanted to but failed. To somehow try and claim credit for something even the best medical and scientific brains still can't fathom is indeed an 'absolute disgrace' 😆
 
Macseasider said:
So you are a died in wool Tory.
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Nope, that's bollox. As I said your post tried to trivialise the seriousness of the situation.
If you look, I posted this yesterday before you started your tirade.

" I'm not defending the gov because we were certainly slow to re-act, as were most western countries[ yes we were slower] but if we are going to be critical, we need to be accurate."






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basilrobbie said:
I don't understand the OP at all. Looks like you started from a decision you were going to slate the Government and then scratched around looking for a poor excuse to justify it. Most of Europe is staring to emerge from lockdown, and has better reasons to do so. But countries like India, Brazil and USA are also doing so - and they don't.

As for the WHO, they are flip-flopping all over the place themselves ; it is hard to "follow the science" when the WHO's own advice changes as much and as often as it has.

There are any number of legitimate reasons to criticise the Government. You could have chosen any one of them, but not only did you not do so, you just posted an incoherent load of fulminating bollocks. Really poor post, one of quite a few from you lately. "Absolute disgrace". 😛
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What’s difficult to understand about the op?

Mac simply criticised the fact that the rest of the World was locking down while the UK wasn’t.

Events and the death rate have shown that was the wrong decision.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
What’s difficult to understand about the op?

Mac simply criticised the fact that the rest of the World was locking down while the UK wasn’t.

Events and the death rate have shown that was the wrong decision.
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VERY debatable. Some say going into lockdown was the wrong decision and there is a growing evidential base for this view being correct
 
Mexboroseasider said:
What’s difficult to understand about the op?

Mac simply criticised the fact that the rest of the World was locking down while the UK wasn’t.

Events and the death rate have shown that was the wrong decision.
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His opinion was agenda based. And agenda based opinion is rarely right or balanced. He just got lucky. 😉
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Mac was spot on from Day 1 and all his critics on this thread look a bit silly.
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Hang on a mo. Wiz was arguing yesterday about it being five months ago which takes us back to Jan 5th. Mac posted his comments on March 12th. Hardly day one eh!.
 
March 12 was when the world started to go into lockdown. We didn’t go into lockdown until 23/24 March. Almost 2 weeks later.

Edit: this was in reply to 20s.
 
20togo said:
Hang on a mo. Wiz was arguing yesterday about it being five months ago which takes us back to Jan 5th. Mac posted his comments on March 12th. Hardly day one eh!.
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20's it's pointless trying to argue with experts. Particularly when those experts also have that wonderful gift of hindsight.
 
I don't really care who is right or wrong, but it does feel to me as if the gov't have attempted to limit the impact on the economy by taking half measures and dragging their feet and thereby have created a situation where the economy is impacted more that countries where more decisive action has been taken more quickly despite the potential effects to the economy.

What is most depressing of all is the same pathetic labelling of everyone that reared its head in the Brexit debate that has meant that people don't listen to each other and thereby don't learn anything from the conversations they have. I've seen the phrase 'lockdowner' used as if that's some kind of ideological position ffs. I'm sure there's an equivalent to the opposite position.

To be honest, I started thinking 'give the government a chance...' - I didn't know anything about stuff like this, but the more I've read, the more it feels like they blew that chance. I'm not buying the 'well, like the rest of us, they didn't know what was going on' because we had more time to react than many countries and it seems that we didn't do basic things that what I've learned about pandemic control would suggest were a good idea. The recent weeks have been atrocious and we've seen internal party politics and image management put ahead of the job in hand - if they were managing a small factory, the workers would be standing about going 'we need to sort this lot, we'll be out of a job, because the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.'

I agree that this *should* be above party politics and Starmer has given them a reletively easy ride, which I think, probably to his credit, but unfortunately, it looks to me like it's becoming a question of competency, as opposed to ideology. Pandemic control is a matter of process, not politics from my understanding and unfortunately (very unfortunately) it seems the current government have been unable to effectively deliver or communicate that process.

You can defend them by saying 'it's the people's fault' but the people can't be changed - you elect a government to manage 'the people' - not the other way round and if it's the 'peoples fault' then that's the failing of the government.

We're now watching the rest of the world (with some notable exceptions, where it does seem there's a pattern of willful ideological defiance of science and sense) move closer to normal life and getting frustrated that we can't do it and I can't see any particular specific reason why we can't, other than we took too little action, too late around some key aspects of pandemic control that other countries did quickly and decisively and which, in retrospect (i.e. now I've had time to inform myself to a basic level) seem 'common sense' - the argument that 'it's easy to judge in retrospect' I don't think is a defense because I have had no reason to learn about pandemic control until now, but one would hope a government (especially one who has effectively been in power for a decade) would have had it as 'a thing that we need to know about' just as I in my job have never had cause to use the 'emergency protocol for terrorist situations' but I am aware of what I have to do.

That's my view. I don't wish to argue it. Others think differently and some of the arguments for alternative strategies are well made and I will read them with interest - I don't really see the point of arguing with each other over something that none of us can control.
 
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