The French

Shandypants said:
Xenophobic embarrassing drivel.
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Au contraire. De Gaulle was a minor general but just happened to escape to England after the French packed it in, in May 1940. He wasn’t even recognised as the de facto head of the “Free French” for quite some time. He was an embarrassing nonentity for the next 4 years and was sidelined by Churchill who used him as a nominal figurehead for the few Frenchmen who wanted to continue the fight and to pretend that France as a country had not fully capitulated (which it had). Those 4 years in England created a lasting resentment in De Gaulle that was reflected in every subsequent decision involving the UK; hence his “Non” when we first tried to join the Common Market.

The French battleships (seven of them) in the port of Mers-el-Kébir in Algeria were shelled by the Royal Navy in 1940 and one sunk and several wrecked because the rump French government refused to sail them to the UK or to a neutral country. The Vichy bunch were quite prepared to hand their fleet (2nd largest in Europe after the Royal Navy) over to Hitler which would have quadrupled the Kriegsmarine surface fleet and would have represented a severe threat to us in protecting the Channel against the anticipated German invasion of southern England that summer.

De Gaulle was allowed to lead the march through Paris down the Champs Elysee in ‘44 just to ensure the Parisians did not feel they were being invaded again. Apart from the odd stay-behind sniper the entire German forces had already left the city. After the war he was set up as the future but turned out to be a reactionary old fool, who tried to hold onto Indochina and Algeria, against the tide of history.

The French Resistance during the war was a minor element; those in the Resistance were vastly outnumbered by collaborators or those who just wanted a quiet war. Their efforts in impeding the transport of German divisions towards Normandy were brave but miniscule, although French villages suffered dreadfully as a result of horrendous German reprisals when a couple of German officers were shot (Oradour-sur-Glane). Just read Sir Max Hastings’ history “Das Reich” which covers the drive of the 2nd SS Panzergrenadier Division from the Cote d’Azur through central France to Normandy.

The collaborative actions of some of the French city authorities and Gendarmerie in arranging the deportation of Jews to the death camps was criminal. The French are still ashamed of their own history in this period to this day, that it is rarely discussed and is the root of their animosity to the USA and the UK - it was an embarrassment to them to have to be rescued due to their own inadequacy.

Maybe this will change one day, but there is still a cultural and herd memory that is passed down the generations that prejudices them. History has long tentacles that stretch down through the decades. It is naive to pretend otherwise, though that is one of the driving forces behind EU integration (and a good thing too).
 
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Archibald Knox said:
Au contraire. De Gaulle was a minor general but just happened to escape to England after the French packed it in, in May 1940. He was an embarrassing nonentity for the next 4 years and was sidelined by Churchill who used him as a pretend figurehead for the few Frenchmen who wanted to continue the fight.

De Gaulle was allowed to lead the march through Paris down the Champs Elysee just to ensure the Parisians did not feel they were being invaded again. Apart from the odd stay-behind sniper the entire German forces had already left the city. After the war he was set up as the future but turned out to be a reactionary old fool, who tried to hold onto Indochina and Algeria, against the tide of history.

The French Resistance during the war was a minor element; those in the Resistance were vastly outnumbered by collaborators or those who just wanted a quiet war. Their efforts in impeding the transport of German divisions towards Normandy were brave but minuscule, although French villages suffered dreadfully as a result of horrendous German reprisals when a couple of German officers were shot (Oradour-sur-Glane). Just read Sir Max Hastings history “Das Reich” which covers the drive of the 2nd SS Division from the Cote d’Azur through central France to Normandy. The French are still ashamed of their own history in this period to this day, that it is rarely discussed and is the root of their animosity to America and the UK - it was an embarrassment to them to have to be rescued due to their own inadequacy.
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They shouldn't be too hard on themselves, much like I can't take any credit for the actions of my grandparents, it is interesting stuff but we need to move on.
 
1950`spoolfan said:
I think it`s us they resent and thus are hard on, not themselves.
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I was referring to his last sentence, and I still don't get it, like I said earlier most of the protagonists of world war 2 are dead. The obsession with that period of history lies with some English people, the rest of Europe has moved on.
If a French politician or a French border official or a French waiter gives somebody from the UK a hard time I do not think in the majority of cases that it is because of a world war 2 hang up.
 
All sorts of reasons they don’t like us, the world war being one.
They capitulated, we didn’t, that’s embarrassing for them.
The language of the world is English, they don’t like that.
We nicked their fish & chips which is now regarded as our national dish and famous around the world.
We like being individual, keeping the pound and Brexit saw to that.

And now, Biden has called Boris before Macron. 🤣🤣🤣
 
Shandypants said:
Xenophobic embarrassing drivel.
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For your information and for Recidivist3 below is a passage from the book and the book title.

It is a bit of a boring repetitive read covering the individual experiences and often deaths of these brave women but when also taken into context with the book that AK mentions, Sir Max Hastings history “Das Reich”, you begin to understand the significance of the collaboration of the Vichy Govt and their cohorts and the sacrifices of the other very brave people in trying to defeat the Nazis and restore democracy to a free France.

De Gaulle in taking over Paris was now dismissing all SOE F service agents, with the single word ‘Go’ – little thanks for what they had lived and died for to help France. He distrusted SOE’s motives, and they were told that their place was no longer in France." (from "The Heroines of SOE: F Section, Britain's Secret Women in France" by Beryl E Escott).
 
Curryman said:
De Gaulle in taking over Paris was now dismissing all SOE F service agents, with the single word ‘Go’ – little thanks for what they had lived and died for to help France. He distrusted SOE’s motives, and they were told that their place was no longer in France." (from "The Heroines of SOE: F Section, Britain's Secret Women in France" by Beryl E Escott).
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Cheers, Curryman

From what I can work out, we’re talking about two dozen women here. Members of a covert British Intelligence organisation.

it seems logical that De Gaulle wouldn’t want them in France. SOE was wound up in 1946 so, arguably, they weren’t wanted in Britain either

As for the single word ‘Go’ .... hmmm. Can’t find any reference to that, whatsoever. Probably my research that is lacking but it does sound just a little ‘emotional’

there is a Times article on Google which may have answered more of my questions which is frustratingly out of reach behind that infernal paywall

interesting times and there is no doubt that a lot of brave people, of both sexes and many nationalities, gave their lives in the pursuit of freedom from Nazi oppression

All so Oooh it’s a Zulu is free to make his outrageous comments on an obscure football website. I’m sure that his dad and his grandad would have been proud of his comments
 
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Curryman said:
For your information and for Recidivist3 below is a passage from the book and the book title.

It is a bit of a boring repetitive read covering the individual experiences and often deaths of these brave women but when also taken into context with the book that AK mentions, Sir Max Hastings history “Das Reich”, you begin to understand the significance of the collaboration of the Vichy Govt and their cohorts and the sacrifices of the other very brave people in trying to defeat the Nazis and restore democracy to a free France.

De Gaulle in taking over Paris was now dismissing all SOE F service agents, with the single word ‘Go’ – little thanks for what they had lived and died for to help France. He distrusted SOE’s motives, and they were told that their place was no longer in France." (from "The Heroines of SOE: F Section, Britain's Secret Women in France" by Beryl E Escott).
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I was referring to your last paragraph. It was crackling with prejudice.
 
Curryman said:
For your information and for Recidivist3 below is a passage from the book and the book title.

It is a bit of a boring repetitive read covering the individual experiences and often deaths of these brave women but when also taken into context with the book that AK mentions, Sir Max Hastings history “Das Reich”, you begin to understand the significance of the collaboration of the Vichy Govt and their cohorts and the sacrifices of the other very brave people in trying to defeat the Nazis and restore democracy to a free France.

De Gaulle in taking over Paris was now dismissing all SOE F service agents, with the single word ‘Go’ – little thanks for what they had lived and died for to help France. He distrusted SOE’s motives, and they were told that their place was no longer in France." (from "The Heroines of SOE: F Section, Britain's Secret Women in France" by Beryl E Escott).
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De Gaulle was an ungrateful, arrogant fool, I am sure the people of France who knew and fought with the brave British women had nothing but thanks and admiration for them.
 
30 years ago I worked in the hotel industry, I worked and socialised with many French people from all parts of the country and many different backgrounds. I can say with complete certainty that we never talked about world war 2, I never heard any other British people talking to them about world war 2. It just wasn't a thing.
They will now have children who will be in their late 20s and 30s, it will be even less of a thing for them if that's possible.
And there was a young mademoiselle called Corinne who was very pleasant with a number of British lads, maybe she was just saying thankyou for what our Grandads did in the war!!
 
gjr69 said:
De Gaulle was an ungrateful, arrogant fool, I am sure the people of France who knew and fought with the brave British women had nothing but thanks and admiration for them.
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So you’ve just assumed that what Beryl has written is factually correct. Perhaps you have evidence to back it up. Who knows

I’m often amused by avftt’ers who just assume that what someone has written is automatically the truth / correct. Especially when it comes to transfer news 😂
 
Recidivist3 said:
So you’ve just assumed that what Beryl has written is factually correct. Perhaps you have evidence to back it up. Who knows

I’m often amused by avftt’ers who just assume that what someone has written is automatically the truth / correct. Especially when it comes to transfer news 😂
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Not got time this morning to research the personality traits of a prominent Frenchman from a war that ended 75 years ago, my point was senior politicians are often unpleasant individuals whereas most regular people anywhere in the world are usually decent human beings.
 
gjr69 said:
Not got time this morning to research the personality traits of a prominent Frenchman from a war that ended 75 years ago, my point was senior politicians are often unpleasant individuals whereas most regular people anywhere in the world are usually decent human beings.
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I think your point was that you wanted to tell us all that you’d shagged Corinne. Or did you 🤔
 
20togo said:
A certain poster wanted to throw out his insult accusing some avftt posters of being Little Englanders. Is that relevant to the discussion.
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I saw an article about the origin of the phrase little Englanders a few weeks ago, very different to what it means now.
If it refers to some English people claiming that we won the war when more accurately they should be saying we were on the winning side then it may have some relevance.
As for reds under beds then I suppose on the left/right spectrum we all vary in our views but thankfully we are all allowed to air them without hiding anywhere.
 
20togo said:
A certain poster wanted to throw out his insult accusing some avftt posters of being Little Englanders. Is that relevant to the discussion
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Given that the thread has an element of ‘why we hate the French’ about it, I think it was very relevant. Not like you to snipe at Cat. Good on you for supporting the
Ruskies though.
 
Recidivist3 said:
Given that the thread has an element of ‘why we hate the French’ about it, I think it was very relevant. Not like you to snipe at Cat. Good on you for supporting the
Ruskies though.
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He threw out the insult about Little Englanders did he not? Rhetorical question.
 
Recidivist3 said:
I think that 20’s is giving the nod to the country that really won WW2. Good for you 20’s. Never enough credit given to the sacrifices they made
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I think total casualties for the German armed forces in WW2 was about 4m, with about 3m of those on the Eastern Front. So in terms of damage caused to the German army I think you are right.
 
Thelaneends1 said:
De gualle took it upon himself to lead the victory parade down the champs elysees ignoring the allies that's why I hate the French.
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Pathé newsreel showing De Gaulle and Churchill riding in the same car down the Champs Elysées, standing together at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and saluting the troops of various nations together.

Rejoice, laneends, you can stop hating the French now 🇫🇷🇬🇧


 
Recidivist3 said:
Pathé newsreel showing De Gaulle and Churchill riding in the same car down the Champs Elysées, standing together at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and saluting the troops of various nations together.

Rejoice, laneends, you can stop hating the French now 🇫🇷🇬🇧


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😂 well yes that seems pretty definitive.
 
Great film.
Question, why do the French 'right shoulder' arms?
Everyone else 'left shoulders'.
No nasty comments about the French please. 😉
 
20togo said:
He threw out the insult about Little Englanders did he not? Rhetorical question.
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It reeks of desperation.
I pointed out with an amusing satirical and relevant clip, the point that so many of the right wing seem to have the notion that by an accident of birthplace being English seems to make you better than other human beings of a different nationality.
Also as the clip cleverly goes on to point out, such negativity towards human beings tends to lead to overwhelming dislike of anyone different or not in your immediate social circle.
Your post of a victory parade had no relevance just the expected and obsessional personal attack.
 
catinstalbans said:
It reeks of desperation.
I pointed out with an amusing satirical and relevant clip, the point that so many of the right wing seem to have the notion that by an accident of birthplace being English seems to make you better than other human beings of a different nationality.
Also as the clip cleverly goes on to point out, such negativity towards human beings tends to lead to overwhelming dislike of anyone different or not in your immediate social circle.
Your post of a victory parade had no relevance just the expected and obsessional personal attack.
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Sure it's an amusing clip but I'm not naive enough to think that your own opinion of so many people on here is that they are Little Englanders which is the comment you made.. An intentional slur at people who disagree with your view on Brexit. That's a personal attack on them is it not? So seeing as you made that comment I think it's perfectly reasonable to post a link back at you. After all you have used the logo/emblem of the Communist Party as an avatar with your username have you not? That's a fact, whether you think it's personal or not.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m not so sure you can assume there’s necessarily a connection between a poster’s avatar and what they post.

For instance Simon and Garfunkel had a very popular hit with “Sound of Silence” but we don’t see much evidence of that do we?
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Straws clutching at.
 
In 40 years of sitting down to dinner with the French side of my family, including a couple who were at the time old enough to have played a part in the Maquis, one of them being my father in law, I can never remember discussing the war or for that matter the fact that I am English. Maybe its because I am lucky enough to have married into a bright and inclusive family, you know the kind of people who take you as who you are rather than where you come from.

I imagine a good few in this thread would enjoy sitting down with us, as for the rest, say la vie.
 
The French military were poorly prepared for what was to come in 1940. De Gaulle , as a senior army officer and veteran of WW1, where he had seen the beginnings of the mechanization of armed forces, had been pressing for the French to invest in this direction from the 1920’s, but was ignored by the politicians. The ease by which the Nazis moved into France was more to do with this than any lack of will amongst the ranks.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m not so sure you can assume there’s necessarily a connection between a poster’s avatar and what they post.

For instance Simon and Garfunkel had a very popular hit with “Sound of Silence” but we don’t see much evidence of that do we?
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I thought it was a picture of 20s and his partner, admired the fact that he was proud and out there, I got that wrong!
 
“Put your confidence in us. Give us your faith and your blessing and under providence, all will be well. We shall not fail or falter, we shall not weaken or tire. Neither the sudden shock of battle, nor the long drawn trials of vigilance and exertion shall wear us down; give us the tools and we will finish the job” Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill who died on 24 January 1965
 
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