The problem as i see it is this

Phil_bfc deux

Phil_bfc deux

Well-known member
In a 532 or a 352 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
 
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Phil_bfc deux said:
In a 532 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
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You said nothing will be any different than safety first in you post this afternoon.

Of course you are correct. We have a massive flock of midfielders that haven't a creative bone between them. Not their fault. They are all water carrying jobbers. You have to pay for one, or have someone you employ with an exceptional eye for a player that has guile and skill. Oh and then have a manager that will play them.
 
Macseasider said:
You said nothing will be any different than safety first in you post this afternoon.

Of course you are correct. We have a massive flock of midfielders that haven't a creative bone between them. Not their fault. They are all water carrying jobbers. You have to pay for one, or have someone you employ with an exceptional eye for a player that has guile and skill. Oh and then have a manager that will play them.
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Yep that's the point with Critchley

Last time round it was a solid 442 now its 532

The systems may be different but the ideology is identical

9 men behind the ball when we aren't in possession

I said before the season started that we would he hard to break down and have loads of draws

It was obvious
 
Phil, granted I ran amateur sides but we were the most successful in the county for 25 years and we played 3-5-2 (Not 5-3-2) many, many years before it became fashionable, your observation on the two key areas of wing backs and a "floating" 10 are spot on BTW.

I don't think it's about systems either, it's more about creativity and balance and having players who can hurt your opponents in the final third, without them any system is irrelevant.

Right now we are badly lacking in these key area's, get that sorted and we can kick on up the league.
 
Raging_Bull said:
Phil, granted I ran amateur sides but we were the most successful in the county for 25 years and we played 3-5-2 (Not 5-3-2) many, many years before it became fashionable, your observation on the two key areas of wing backs and a "floating" 10 are spot on BTW.

I don't think it's about systems either, it's more about creativity and balance and having players who can hurt your opponents in the final third, without them any system is irrelevant.

Right now we are badly lacking in these key area's, get that sorted and we can kick on up the league.
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Yeah I know you did pal, I actually like the formation as when played right you can create overloads and 2v1s all over the pitch

The problem we have is that the manager is too safety first and our system is too rigid

The wingbacks on their wrong foot really winds me up
 
A goal scoring midfielder would be an asset but despite pursuing Brannagan and more recently Moxon we have failed to recruit one.

We are woefully short up front. We thought that last season when we had Yates Madine Lavery and Beesley before loans but we have now lost two of those four with no loans and a new forward who was crocked before we started.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
In a 532 or a 352 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
Click to expand...

Good post. Especially for being one that isn't just bleating about the Yates money, the owner or the stock tropes of the whinging few.

In the scheme of things it's early days. Critchley will have seen all the same things we did in those last 3 games. It's what he does next that he can be judged on.

For example Marvin either needs to be moved sideways or the plan needs to change to give us a different out from defence. We cannot continue with him resorting to the long ball when closed down. If Gaz was still in the side it'd get some success, but it won't with Shane and Beesley.

I wonder if Norburn has the confidence to pick the ball up deep and play the CA role?
 
We need some creative players in soonest 🙏🏻

He did show some flexibility when CJ and Lyons changed wings late on so all is not lost just yet
 
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There are a number of times we could make a forward pass on the half turn or take the ball on the half turn in midfield areas and we do not, we simply give it back to the defence, we do this time and again and have obviously been told to do so, NC wants us to boss possession, did you see Wigan's possession stats about 37%, yet they scored 4.
 
Your right about needing the 10 player but our 2 cms do seem to be playing quite wide which I think is taking them both out of the game and would do the same to anyone we brought in too. The big concern I have though is that we needed that creative 10 the 1st time round with Critch too which would have hugely improved us creatively but he never seemingly saw it that way so I'm not sure if he will this time either.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
In a 532 or a 352 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
Click to expand...
We have one wing-back who genuinely doesn’t want the ball, watched him hide numerous times 1st half when Casey & Weir got the ball, giving them nothing. At one point, Weir signalled to to him to come short to get it, rolled it into his feet to give and go and he gave him a hospital pass and we lost the ball. The only other time in the whole 1st half he had the ball at his feet with a chance to run at his opponent be lost the ball. We’re being told we’re a possession based football team and he’s our right wing back & Marv is pinging diagonals. I mean c’mon.

Hamilton is never ever going to be a right wing back. Ever. What are we carrying on with this for.

I honestly do not see why Rob Apter isn’t even on our bench, he could actually play that 10 role, he’s confident and wants the ball which is better than our RWB & at least it would give us an option from the bench instead of bringing on Matty Virtue to change a game.

Owen Dale hasn’t got on for two home games we’ve drawn 0-0. So he needs to be shipped out if that’s what the manager thinks of him.
 
Adams Kebab said:
We have one wing-back who genuinely doesn’t want the ball, watched him hide numerous times 1st half when Casey & Weir got the ball, giving them nothing. At one point, Weir signalled to to him to come short to get it, rolled it into his feet to give and go and he gave him a hospital pass and we lost the ball. The only other time in the whole 1st half he had the ball at his feet with a chance to run at his opponent be lost the ball. We’re being told we’re a possession based football team and he’s our right wing back & Marv is pinging diagonals. I mean c’mon.

Hamilton is never ever going to be a right wing back. Ever. What are we carrying on with this for.

I honestly do not see why Rob Apter isn’t even on our bench, he could actually play that 10 role, he’s confident and wants the ball which is better than our RWB & at least it would give us an option from the bench instead of bringing on Matty Virtue to change a game.

Owen Dale hasn’t got on for two home games we’ve drawn 0-0. So he needs to be shipped out if that’s what the manager thinks of him.
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Critchley is really stubborn pal

In his own head he actually thinks we are playing well as we have clean sheets

You can tell that from his interviews
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Critchley is really stubborn pal

In his own head he actually thinks we are playing well as we have clean sheets

You can tell that from his interviews
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Just posted similar on the Apter thread mate.

I remember Southgate saying if you keep a clean sheet you don’t lose the match like some kind of footballing and tactical genius and it appears that’s NC’s priority right now.

That 1st sub said it all. How there wasn’t changes to the team or system till 60 mins plus was baffling as well as our only attacking change available on the bench not used, again.

Balance & Clean Sheet FC 👍🏼

I get this a base to build but we need to be sorting it offensively sharpish.

We’re waiting on Madine no doubts…
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
In a 532 or a 352 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
Click to expand...
Agree with this. I think the time to start worrying is if we don’t get it before the end
of the window, not now.

If he stays fit, Gabriel will be very good in this set up. We need a left sided option bringing in 100%. CJ shouldn’t fall in to any wing back plans. Or any plans at all.

Scott Banks looked like the perfect option for the number 10. Somebody who can dribble in tight spaces and unlock a deep defence. They’ll have to ship a couple out to get someone like this in - hopefully that’s the plan.

And then we need an experienced striker with some composure. As Critch says, we win back the ball with our press and do nothing with it. It’s poor at the moment in that sense.

Edit to add. I think we need to drop Marv. Pennington looked so much more confident stepping out of defence - he actually managed to open up some spaces. Difficult one cause you’d want to bring him in for Casey but you can’t drop him at the moment.
 
The No 10 we’re crying out for will hopefully be Weir. He struggled to get in the game yesterday, but there were enough flashes on Tuesday night to show he can nail that position.
Wing backs is another matter. We’re miles off.
Before the end of the window we need at least 2 that are noticeably better than what we’ve got. Same calibre as Norburn
 
I don't necessarily think it's a personal problem either

I've seen loads of posts saying we need new stikers etc, I'm not sure it would make a difference as we simple dont get the ball to them in good positions

Lavery is ran ragged ever match chasing lost causes and Beesley is used as a battering ram expected to win the ball in the air from long hopeful punts

We could have prime Shearer and Sutton or Dalglish and Rush and still not score as we dont create enough for the front men
 
The players are not good enough and the formation makes it even more difficult. I doubt we are going to address this with only two weeks left of the window.

Empty stadium and zero atmosphere will be the norm in a couple of months. It’s very predictable.
 
At least he eventually put Lyon’s & CJ on there preferred side’s I wonder if he’ll start them like that in the next game. Perhaps try Apter as a 10 & Pennington for Marv. We do need another forward option now. I wondered if Casey could convert for a few games until Joseph is fit. Which would also spare Marv from being dropped. As we can only speculate on what his injury is we’ve no idea how long he’ll be out for. Or get a couple more players in to fill those roles.
 
We're doing coaching manual formation which is what Critch does. He can be stubborn, he does seem to have his favourites but he's not stupid. Rewind to first time round and he was a stubborn 4-3-3 man to start with but he did change. Like @Phil_bfc deux says it can work and it's working for us in so far as clean sheets are concerned but not at the other end of the pitch. We blame lack of creativity in mid-field but we actually need more creativity right through from No.1 to No.11. I do think we will improve and I'm sure there'll be another couple of additions before the transfer window closes.
I am forever the optimist though.
 
Qblock said:
The No 10 we’re crying out for will hopefully be Weir. He struggled to get in the game yesterday, but there were enough flashes on Tuesday night to show he can nail that position.
Wing backs is another matter. We’re miles off.
Before the end of the window we need at least 2 that are noticeably better than what we’ve got. Same calibre as Norburn
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In fairness to Weir every time he got the ball 1st half he looked to his right to play a pass and the world Hide and Seek Champion 2023 was doing what he does best.
 
The four teams we’ve played have conceded 23 goals in the other games they’ve played.

23 goals.

And we’re supposed to be content with not conceding anything against them.

The truth is if you don’t score you get relegated. That Burton first 20 minutes seems a long time ago and I’ve sat through every minute since bored rigid. I won’t be going to Lincoln to watch the same. If the 12th man ever counted for anything then then Critchley is losing it quickly.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
I don't necessarily think it's a personal problem either

I've seen loads of posts saying we need new stikers etc, I'm not sure it would make a difference as we simple dont get the ball to them in good positions

Lavery is ran ragged ever match chasing lost causes and Beesley is used as a battering ram expected to win the ball in the air from long hopeful punts

We could have prime Shearer and Sutton or Dalglish and Rush and still not score as we dont create enough for the front men
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This nails the problem for me - and it’s something that’s been an issue for a while. It’s perhaps become more apparent this season simply because of the phenomenal amount of work Jerry put in week in & week out, which, to an extent, covered up the lack of decent service he was getting.
 
The philosophy of if you don`t concede you don`t lose may be true but when you`re at home to bottom teams who`ve been conceding lots of goals elsewhere that`s a ludicrous approach added to that of course if we average a point a game the only certainty is that we will be relegated.
 
Voice of Reason said:
Good post. Especially for being one that isn't just bleating about the Yates money, the owner or the stock tropes of the whinging few.

In the scheme of things it's early days. Critchley will have seen all the same things we did in those last 3 games. It's what he does next that he can be judged on.

For example Marvin either needs to be moved sideways or the plan needs to change to give us a different out from defence. We cannot continue with him resorting to the long ball when closed down. If Gaz was still in the side it'd get some success, but it won't with Shane and Beesley.

I wonder if Norburn has the confidence to pick the ball up deep and play the CA role?
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Marvin is singled out by the fans but must be being told to hoof it - its just not his skill set and his affecting his confidence and whole game

CJ looked lost yesterday - time for Critch to have a rethink ??!!
 
The problem as I see it is that to have a system reliant on wing backs you need 4 wing backs to make it work. We have one in Lyons and are instaed buying every midfielder Chelsea don't want. Hopefully Josef will add options up front but we really need to sort the wing backs first.
 
I said yesterday before the game that Critch could help himself by playing Lyons and Hubby as wing backs and Weir in midfield. He did one of three. But it's Weir's first game and I'm on holiday and not seen the game. I was shocked that CJ got selected at RWB for the Burton game. It's now beyond ridiculous. Nude photos looking distinctly possible.

Critch believes he has creative midfielders in Morgan and Weir. Apter should certainly be getting on the bench at least. Lavery can finish but he's not good at much else. Critch wants possession football but he's got 3 players who lose the ball a lot. Bees is like an experiment, can i turn him into a Championship striker by fiddling with his motherboard and reprogramming his brain? I don't think it's easy for the midfield with those two up front.

And Critch is very fearful i think, after his quitting, and failing at Villa and QPR. His career as a manager is on the line. He does know we are not playing well but he won't say so, and is simply scared of losing. We did gradually find ways to create and score goals in L1 last time, but we had better attacking players. We could definitely be better with the players weve got though. The continued selection of CJ at RWB is worrying. If Critch can't see that then his judgement is questionable. Dobbie has better intuition, I reckon. A smarter football brain. A combination of Dobbie's intuition and Critch's thoroughness would be nice....
 
Ekpiteta isn't undroppable, we are relatively strong in that position, it wasn't just his distribution that was shaky yesterday, it was everything he did. I like him but he isn't in great form so give somebody else a go. That goes for everyone, Thompson should probably also be given another chance and Hamilton left out, that's how you get the best out of a squad.
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
Yeah I know you did pal, I actually like the formation as when played right you can create overloads and 2v1s all over the pitch

The problem we have is that the manager is too safety first and our system is too rigid

The wingbacks on their wrong foot really winds me up
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A flat back five is a dispiriting set up and that's what it ends up as far too much under the current orders. Lyons is wasted and CJ neutered by both the orders they seem to have been given and fact both are on the wrong side.
 
When the wing backs were finally switched to their right sides they looked better, hopefully no more inverted wing backs
At home against a team without a point and we have one attacking sub and we don't use him
It would appear half the squad are surplus to requirements
Certain players have had opportunities to cement a place but failed can we give someone else a chance
We will improve as the season progresses but everyone has to play to keep their place
 
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Critchley would never do this and it’s probably just as well but how about we try Marvin up front alongside Lavery and bring Pennington in at the back? Might win some headers and hold the ball up 🤣
 
Phil_bfc deux said:
In a 532 or a 352 you need two things to create chances

1- Wingbacks creating chances by staying wide and getting the ball into the box

2- A number 10 in a completely free role to roam around creating chances by taking risks on the ball

We set up to not do any of the above under Critchley

I see Kaikai came on today on the hour and changed the game for the league leaders

We need some of that sort of creativity behind the front 2 along with wing backs playing on their correct side of the pitch

It really isn't rocket science
Click to expand...
Agree all of that. I would add the need for a 'fetch and carry' midfielder to connect defence with forward midfield.
 
WIZARD OF TANGERINE said:
If you saw the game from higher up . Players were making runs or asking for the ball and were not getting it because it was going sideways or backwards.
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no they weren't. I sit on the back row of the West which is high enough to see what's happening. You seem to be obsessed with long hoofball football because your sole idea of players making runs is only what forwards do. There was no movement from the central midfield players full stop. And as said CJ simply hides behind his man because he knows he's technically not good enough to receive and control a pass when being tightly marked. Said it to you on another thread that Critchley wants us to play possession football and build up play. How you do that is by having both wing backs and central midfield players making themselves available to receive the ball. If they are not doing that then what options do the defence have? Yep, it's sideways passing or by hoofing it up to Lavery or Beesley. And the latter of those options isn't possession football.
 
Voice of Reason said:
We're making a right mess of the former. Did you see the accounts???
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I didn’t look into it as to be honest I don’t really care. I just remembering it being championed we ran in profit after sales? Maybe I’m wrong on this?

My point is I go to watch football not a balance sheet so as long as the club isn’t put at risk I want us to use the money we recoup to sign players. Not all of it, as that can subsidise the Club but most of it. M

That’s the model isn’t it?
 
Charliecleanstonysheens said:
There is no movement, that's why Marv is so hesitant.
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I agree with that, although when the booing started when he had the ball for ages looking to pass it, there were at least two times when players moved into space and he ignored them. It’s both his inability to pass and players not creating space. Two doing it isn’t enough, they all need to be moving to clear opposing players out of position.
 
Adams Kebab said:
I didn’t look into it as to be honest I don’t really care. I just remembering it being championed we ran in profit after sales? Maybe I’m wrong on this?

My point is I go to watch football not a balance sheet so as long as the club isn’t put at risk I want us to use the money we recoup to sign players. Not all of it, as that can subsidise the Club but most of it. M

That’s the model isn’t it?
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I recall SS has committed to put 90 million into the club over the next 10 years.

I think fans should steer clear of commenting about balance sheets,
 
It's just a crap formation, ultra defensive, can't get out of your own half, won't create chances without getting lucky from a hoof upfield. Turgid, dire, boring, ineffectual tactics. Wiegman went for the same formation today and had the same problems.
 
Voice of Reason said:
I recall SS has committed to put 90 million into the club over the next 10 years.

I think fans should steer clear of commenting about balance sheets,
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He has said he will, whether he does or not is another thing. Also how much will come in over the next 10 years, I'm sure that will be included. He needs to spend some money on some players instead of making crap managerial appointments and then having to pay them off when they turn out to be shit.
 
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune said:
The four teams we’ve played have conceded 23 goals in the other games they’ve played.

23 goals.

And we’re supposed to be content with not conceding anything against them.

The truth is if you don’t score you get relegated. That Burton first 20 minutes seems a long time ago and I’ve sat through every minute since bored rigid. I won’t be going to Lincoln to watch the same. If the 12th man ever counted for anything then then Critchley is losing it quickly.
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Agree absolutely and I've got Wizaard getting personal with me for stating the damned obvious. 0-0 at home to dross is 2 points dropped. If it was Bolton, Wigan, Pompey et al away you'd take a point. Then to be told you are asking for too much makes you realised how many unhinged fans we have too.
 
20togo said:
no they weren't. I sit on the back row of the West which is high enough to see what's happening. You seem to be obsessed with long hoofball football because your sole idea of players making runs is only what forwards do. There was no movement from the central midfield players full stop. And as said CJ simply hides behind his man because he knows he's technically not good enough to receive and control a pass when being tightly marked. Said it to you on another thread that Critchley wants us to play possession football and build up play. How you do that is by having both wing backs and central midfield players making themselves available to receive the ball. If they are not doing that then what options do the defence have? Yep, it's sideways passing or by hoofing it up to Lavery or Beesley. And the latter of those options isn't possession football.
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No ,I want us to play football rather then just kicking up the pitch and hoping. What I am saying is the forwards and wingers were asking for service and were not getting it . I just would like more support for the attackers and its not happening because of the tactics we are playing.
 
Voice of Reason said:
I recall SS has committed to put 90 million into the club over the next 10 years.

I think fans should steer clear of commenting about balance sheets,
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Sorry Dad will do 👍🏼

If he can put a good chunk into buying players I’ll be happy, especially from the money we’ve generated from selling players.

Hope that’s ok with you Voice.
 
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