To All Anti-England Fans

Not a problem x3.

I'm only stating the blindingly obvious, in that the EPL has been an outstanding success.

The debate - maybe going back more than a day now - was not really about whether or not the EPL has been a success or not, it was whether or not the relative recent success of the English national side was down to the success of the EPL.

20's and Wiz have just touched on that, I'd be more with Wiz than 20's on that one but I can certainly see a debate, unlike the success of the EPL which is not - or should not - up for debate.
I think it definitely is ‘up for debate’, I just think you’ve kind of decided for yourself to take a pretty narrow / blinkered view of what ‘success’ means.

If you were to have said the Premier League has been extremely entertaining or that it has been a huge revenue generator for example, then I could have acknowledged that, but you chose to use the success and then you are seemingly trying to narrow down what success means in order to make you right.

The fact is, if you say “The Premier League” has been a success, then to my mind you must evaluate the overall impact.
 
I don't think you understand in the slightest, tbh.. Your argument Is a bit like telling a robbery victim his financial problems result from him not making the best of what he is left with afterwards.

Only that nobody has been robbed and that the "victim" has actually received a subsidy from the party that has supposed to have robbed him.

Apart from that, that's a great analogy Coppice.

There is nothing to understand, you just appear to be of the opinion that those responsible for generating the revenues should put a greater value on the input of those lower down the pyramid.

As I've already said, I don't have a problem with lower clubs getting a bigger share - or even an equal share - but it doesn't matter what I think or what you think, it isn't going to happen.

If you want to blame my lack lack of understanding for that then so be it.
 
Only that nobody has been robbed and that the "victim" has actually received a subsidy from the party that has supposed to have robbed him.

Apart from that, that's a great analogy Coppice.

There is nothing to understand, you just appear to be of the opinion that those responsible for generating the revenues should put a greater value on the input of those lower down the pyramid.

As I've already said, I don't have a problem with lower clubs getting a bigger share - or even an equal share - but it doesn't matter what I think or what you think, it isn't going to happen.

If you want to blame my lack lack of understanding for that then so be it.
Yes they have. We used to get equal shares of TV money, now we get some grace and favour solidarity payments which come with the threat of withdrawal if we don't toe the line.

As a percentage, its a tiny fraction of the TV monies we used to get due to exponential growth of TV dividend. The vast majority is with the top six sides.

We in this context being EFL teams.
 
I think it definitely is ‘up for debate’, I just think you’ve kind of decided for yourself to take a pretty narrow / blinkered view of what ‘success’ means.

If you were to have said the Premier League has been extremely entertaining or that it has been a huge revenue generator for example, then I could have acknowledged that, but you chose to use the success and then you are seemingly trying to narrow down what success means in order to make you right.

The fact is, if you say “The Premier League” has been a success, then to my mind you must evaluate the overall impact.

BFC

I guess that's one way of putting it.

I'm sure others might suggest that it is clear that the EPL has been outstandingly successful and that in order to attempt to deny that, you'd have to introduce irrelevant performance indicators.

We are just going round in circles, if you don't believe that the EPL has been a success then that's fair enough.
 
Without a pyramid there is no competition. And if there is no competition the commercial appeal soo fades.

Coppice

That's a fair point but the commercial appeal of the EPL shows no signs of fading and it would be ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Indeed if - that says IF - England were to win the Euros, I'm sure that there would be a resulting boom in the commercial appeal of the EPL and football in the country in general.

This would benefit all clubs but as always the bigger clubs would benefit to a greater extent.

The bigger clubs do value the input of the lower clubs, just not as much as you appear to do.
 
Only that nobody has been robbed and that the "victim" has actually received a subsidy from the party that has supposed to have robbed him.

Apart from that, that's a great analogy Coppice.

There is nothing to understand, you just appear to be of the opinion that those responsible for generating the revenues should put a greater value on the input of those lower down the pyramid.

As I've already said, I don't have a problem with lower clubs getting a bigger share - or even an equal share - but it doesn't matter what I think or what you think, it isn't going to happen.

If you want to blame my lack lack of understanding for that then so be it.
It’s more the case that those who are fortunate enough to live in the upper floor of the building, should appreciate the benefit that they gain from having a set of foundations and supporting structure.


BFC

I guess that's one way of putting it.

I'm sure others might suggest that it is clear that the EPL has been outstandingly successful and that in order to attempt to deny that, you'd have to introduce irrelevant performance indicators.

We are just going round in circles, if you don't believe that the EPL has been a success then that's fair enough.

I’m sure you’d find plenty of people who would agree with you. So if you simply want to find someone to confirm what you believe to be true, then there’ll be no shortage of willing volunteers.

Of course, that doesn’t make you or them correct.

Also I have no need to introduce any ‘irrelevant performance indicators’ I simply need a) A definition of success and b) The necessary information to evaluate success based on that definition.

It is you who has chosen the broadest possible definition, by stating that “the EPL has been outstandingly successful” not me.

You’re right, we are going round in circles, but that’s as a direct result of your inability to define what you mean, as opposed to anything anyone else has done.

You seem to have a very clear perspective in your own mind as to what you mean by success, but you seem unable to define that beyond the broadest possible definition.
 
It’s more the case that those who are fortunate enough to live in the upper floor of the building, should appreciate the benefit that they gain from having a set of foundations and supporting structure.




I’m sure you’d find plenty of people who would agree with you. So if you simply want to find someone to confirm what you believe to be true, then there’ll be no shortage of willing volunteers.

Of course, that doesn’t make you or them correct.

Also I have no need to introduce any ‘irrelevant performance indicators’ I simply need a) A definition of success and b) The necessary information to evaluate success based on that definition.

It is you who has chosen the broadest possible definition, by stating that “the EPL has been outstandingly successful” not me.

You’re right, we are going round in circles, but that’s as a direct result of your inability to define what you mean, as opposed to anything anyone else has done.

You seem to have a very clear perspective in your own mind as to what you mean by success, but you seem unable to define that beyond the broadest possible definition.


BFC

No problem.

Some people believe that everything should be shared equally for the greater good.

Others believe that those responsibility for creating should be rewarded for that creation by being allowed to retain a greater percentage of their creation.

What I think about things doesn't matter.
 
Without a pyramid there is no competition. And if there is no competition the commercial appeal soo fades.
Thats true but it largely depends on who's viewing the product. With due respect to say Crewe (I've avoided Fleetwood ) watching a game in front on 3k where you're largely seeing indifferent results from an average quality side, might not really be thing young people want to do with their spare time; the notion of father and son supporting their local team has really gone by the wayside, given PL and top drawer football is available wall to wall almost all weekend.

The commercial success of a fully marketed PL backs that up, and if anything there is an argument that the pyramid is too big and is being artificially held together by the consolidarity monies and sprinkling of TV cash.

Everybody in the school playground wanted to be like Georgie Best* who was largely unavailable for schoolboys around the country in the 60's and 70's,but now he's available at the flick of a remote, you can buy his jersey from Sports Direct and for a treat you can do the stadium tour and sit where he changes his kit.

Thats the reality.
 
BFC

No problem.

Some people believe that everything should be shared equally for the greater good.

Others believe that those responsibility for creating should be rewarded for that creation by being allowed to retain a greater percentage of their creation.

What I think about things doesn't matter.
Yes, I understand that, but ‘Success’ is a broad term, that relies on some definition. I get the impression you perhaps view success as a monetary thing?

At this point it really doesn’t matter what me, Wiz or Coppice ‘believe’, because until we understand what ‘success’ actually means then we’re going to continue going around in circles and talking at cross purposes.

The fact that you believe that everything should be shared or otherwise isn’t the issue. The issue is the question or statement is too broad.

So we are sat here still arguing about what success means.

So what do you mean?

The EPL has been a success for who and by what measure?
 
It is pretty clear that you don't understand the issues and haven't bothered informing yourself about them.

It's odd really, cos most Spurs fan are up in arms about it.
It's also pretty clear that you don't debate any issues. Your posting history tells me that. Just the usual one liners. Just like recidivist.
 
Yes, I understand that, but ‘Success’ is a broad term, that relies on some definition. I get the impression you perhaps view success as a monetary thing?

At this point it really doesn’t matter what me, Wiz or Coppice ‘believe’, because until we understand what ‘success’ actually means then we’re going to continue going around in circles and talking at cross purposes.

The fact that you believe that everything should be shared or otherwise isn’t the issue. The issue is the question or statement is too broad.

So we are sat here still arguing about what success means.

So what do you mean?

The EPL has been a success for who and by what measure?

It's in demand all over the world.

I am not saying it is the best league in the world, I am not saying that is has had a positive effect on the performance of the English national side, it clearly appeals to people all around the world and has been a very successful product and continues to be so.

The EPL has been a success for the EPL, the clubs within the competition continue to enjoy the benefits of being part of that competition.

The England national football side may not have shared the outstanding success of the EPL and Blackpool Football Club may not have received as a big a share of the revenue from the outstanding success of the EPL as some of their supporters may have liked but that does not mean that the EPL has not been outstandingly successful.

As I've already said BFC, I have no problem if you are of the opinion that the EPL has not been successful but it's not something I should have wasted half a day discussing.
 
It's in demand all over the world.

I am not saying it is the best league in the world, I am not saying that is has had a positive effect on the performance of the English national side, it clearly appeals to people all around the world and has been a very successful product and continues to be so.

The EPL has been a success for the EPL, the clubs within the competition continue to enjoy the benefits of being part of that competition.

The England national football side may not have shared the outstanding success of the EPL and Blackpool Football Club may not have received as a big a share of the revenue from the outstanding success of the EPL as some of their supporters may have liked but that does not mean that the EPL has not been outstandingly successful.

As I've already said BFC, I have no problem if you are of the opinion that the EPL has not been successful but it's not something I should have wasted half a day discussing.
Yes it is in demand all over the world, that’s right. So if ‘Worldwide Demand’ were the measure of success, then job done.

The EPL has also attracted a significant amount of revenue and so the product has definitely been successful in attracting revenue. Of course, that ‘revenue’ has also driven up the relative cost of resource, forced clubs to adopt different revenue strategies, attracted a lot of foreign investment, which has changed the nature of many clubs.

So has it been a ‘success’ for those Clubs?

I suppose that might come down to how you define the Club… Do you mean the ‘commercial enterprise’ or do you mean the loyal supporters ?

As I keep trying to say, I have no way of knowing whether the EPL has been successful, because I have no idea what that even means. If at some point you can let me know what it means, I will happily give you an opinion.

By the way had you managed to properly define what you meant instead of couching this in the broadest possible context, then you wouldn’t have needed to spend all day discussing it.

Maybe tomorrow we could raise the question ‘has the universe been a success’
 
Yes it is in demand all over the world, that’s right. So if ‘Worldwide Demand’ were the measure of success, then job done.

The EPL has also attracted a significant amount of revenue and so the product has definitely been successful in attracting revenue. Of course, that ‘revenue’ has also driven up the relative cost of resource, forced clubs to adopt different revenue strategies, attracted a lot of foreign investment, which has changed the nature of many clubs.

So has it been a ‘success’ for those Clubs?

I suppose that might come down to how you define the Club… Do you mean the ‘commercial enterprise’ or do you mean the loyal supporters ?

As I keep trying to say, I have no way of knowing whether the EPL has been successful, because I have no idea what that even means. If at some point you can let me know what it means, I will happily give you an opinion.

By the way had you managed to properly define what you meant instead of couching this in the broadest possible context, then you wouldn’t have needed to spend all day discussing it.

Maybe tomorrow we could raise the question ‘has the universe been a success’

BFC

Okey doke, we can raise the question re the universe tomorrow.

I won't be signing in myself but do enjoy.
 
It's in demand all over the world.

I am not saying it is the best league in the world, I am not saying that is has had a positive effect on the performance of the English national side, it clearly appeals to people all around the world and has been a very successful product and continues to be so.

The EPL has been a success for the EPL, the clubs within the competition continue to enjoy the benefits of being part of that competition.

The England national football side may not have shared the outstanding success of the EPL and Blackpool Football Club may not have received as a big a share of the revenue from the outstanding success of the EPL as some of their supporters may have liked but that does not mean that the EPL has not been outstandingly successful.

As I've already said BFC, I have no problem if you are of the opinion that the EPL has not been successful but it's not something I should have wasted half a day discussing.
Yet the Number One priority of the FA EPL was and is an England team winning a major trophy.
 
Yet the Number One priority of the FA EPL was and is an England team winning a major trophy.

Wiz

There is a chance that they will achieve their number one priority before the week is out then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you let x3 know, he will be pleased.

On a serious note, I'm not sure the clubs competing in the PL and enjoying the benefits would put England winning a major trophy above attracting the huge broadcasting revenues but England winning will do the revenues no harm so everyone's a winner.
 
Wiz

There is a chance that they will achieve their number one priority before the week is out then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you let x3 know, he will be pleased.

On a serious note, I'm not sure the clubs competing in the PL and enjoying the benefits would put England winning a major trophy above attracting the huge broadcasting revenues but England winning will do the revenues no harm so everyone's a winner.
I'd be delighted if we did win it. Still want Blackpool to win more🤣
 
Wiz

There is a chance that they will achieve their number one priority before the week is out then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you let x3 know, he will be pleased.

On a serious note, I'm not sure the clubs competing in the PL and enjoying the benefits would put England winning a major trophy above attracting the huge broadcasting revenues but England winning will do the revenues no harm so everyone's a winner.
On the latter point, it's almost like the clubs are putting themselves and their income streams above the nation. Will 20s slag them for it, like he does us Blackpool over country fans?
 
Wiz

There is a chance that they will achieve their number one priority before the week is out then !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you let x3 know, he will be pleased.

On a serious note, I'm not sure the clubs competing in the PL and enjoying the benefits would put England winning a major trophy above attracting the huge broadcasting revenues but England winning will do the revenues no harm so everyone's a winner.
In fairness, the EPL now have a quite different principal objective..

"The principal objective of the Premier League is to stage the most competitive and compelling league with world-class players and, through the equitable distribution of broadcast and commercial revenues, to enable clubs to develop so that European competition is a realistic aim and, once there, they are playing at a level where they can compete effectively."
 
It's crazy how a few games of football can lift a nation in these trying times. This England team is bringing this country out of a deep depression.
 
On the latter point, it's almost like the clubs are putting themselves and their income streams above the nation. Will 20s slag them for it, like he does us Blackpool over country fans?

Very good Wiz but those were my words and not the clubs so please let 20's have the night off !!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
In fairness, the EPL now have a quite different principal objective..

"The principal objective of the Premier League is to stage the most competitive and compelling league with world-class players and, through the equitable distribution of broadcast and commercial revenues, to enable clubs to develop so that European competition is a realistic aim and, once there, they are playing at a level where they can compete effectively."

BFC

I'm all Premier League'd out but all I would say is that I'm sure they could meet that objective without being a successful organisation.

Not sure how you'd make an exact measurement of how compelling a league is ?

Maybe you could use viewing figures and revenues but still objective - SHOULD HAVE SAID SUBJECTIVE - without numbers/targets.
 
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It's crazy how a few games of football can lift a nation in these trying times. This England team is bringing this country out of a deep depression.

Yes Tang, success in football/sport is great for the feel good factor but it doesn't work on here.

Two minutes after England have won the Euros, their will be folk on here moaning about the end of lockdown, lack of masks, lack of social distancing, etc, etc.

Edit to add - I see Cat has already started.
 
BFC

I'm all Premier League'd out but all I would say is that I'm sure they could meet that objective without being a successful organisation.

Not sure how you'd make an exact measurement of how compelling a league is ?

Maybe you could use viewing figures and revenues but still objective without numbers/targets.
I’d agree, I think the objectives they have set for themselves are a bit wishy washy really.

I’m also not convinced that the EPL has made English Clubs any more competitive in Europe, nor done anything to erode the domination of Real Madrid. Although the European objective is also pretty wishy washy….

They’re not particularly ‘aspirational’ or ‘clearly defined’ objectives and almost feel a bit like, someone has looked at what the minimum achievements of the Premier League are at the moment and then back-dressed the objectives to suit….
 
Yes they have. We used to get equal shares of TV money, now we get some grace and favour solidarity payments which come with the threat of withdrawal if we don't toe the line.

As a percentage, its a tiny fraction of the TV monies we used to get due to exponential growth of TV dividend. The vast majority is with the top six sides.

We in this context being EFL teams.
May I suggest that when you get your next pay cheque you re-distribute some of it to those on a lower pay band than yourself. Or do you think it right that you get a bigger share of the pie because you are at a higher level than the minnions below you?
 
You could start with all those who support those who boo the players taking the knee against racism
A football discussion and Cat brings it round to racism. No surprises there because that's the aim of anyone like CAT who is associated with the Antifa movement. Twist every discussion to that agenda.
 
May I suggest that when you get your next pay cheque you re-distribute some of it to those on a lower pay band than yourself. Or do you think it right that you get a bigger share of the pie because you are at a higher level than the minnions below you?
That’s not really a very good analogy 20’s…

I don’t think anyone would ever deny that the more successful clubs require a bigger share of the wealth.

The issue we have in England is more about how best to distribute that wealth in the best overall interests of the game from top to bottom.

It’s no different than a Club it’s own rights really… You can take a fairly ‘short term’ view and splash your available cash on buying in talent or you can take a longer term view and invest in an academy, scouting network and player development….

After 30 years the Premier League journey really ought to have transformed football (root and branch) for the better. We ought to be producing more home grown talent, greater stability throughout the football pyramid, stronger competition at all levels etc…
 
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That’s not really a very good analogy 20’s…

I don’t think anyone would ever deny that the more successful clubs require a bigger share of the wealth.

The issue we have in England is more about how best to distribute that wealth in the best overall interests of the game from top to bottom.

After 30 years the Premier League journey really ought to have transformed football (root and branch) for the better. We ought to be producing more home grown talent, greater stability throughout the football pyramid, stronger competition at all levels etc…

On the first point the money that is drip fed directly from the PL/TV isn't an insignificant amount and the Seasiders share of the pot will rise considerably. Whether more should be shared is debatable but in certain quarters some are calling for the ending of parachute payments, but that will only create another vacuum and/or exacerbate the problem of top flight wages.

You could reasonably argue that the EFL clubs have become more reliant on home grown players because they cant afford to bring in expensive imports, and Chelsea for instance have a tremendous network that gives young British players the opportunity to work with the best.
 
May I suggest that when you get your next pay cheque you re-distribute some of it to those on a lower pay band than yourself. Or do you think it right that you get a bigger share of the pie because you are at a higher level than the minnions below you?
A football discussion and you bring it round to politics. All I've said is that the previous distribution was fairer across the divisions and led to a more open competition, rather than the current cartel and stitch up, financially and competitively.
 
A football discussion and you bring it round to politics. All I've said is that the previous distribution was fairer across the divisions and led to a more open competition, rather than the current cartel and stitch up, financially and competitively.
I know it's not a good analogy. Just posted it for a bit of fun and a wind up.
 
On the first point the money that is drip fed directly from the PL/TV isn't an insignificant amount and the Seasiders share of the pot will rise considerably. Whether more should be shared is debatable but in certain quarters some are calling for the ending of parachute payments, but that will only create another vacuum and/or exacerbate the problem of top flight wages.

You could reasonably argue that the EFL clubs have become more reliant on home grown players because they cant afford to bring in expensive imports, and Chelsea for instance have a tremendous network that gives young British players the opportunity to work with the best.
Plumbs, I'm not trying to justify a bigger share for the Seasiders, nor am I really suggesting that any changes to the current financial distribution would be prefereable. Without wanting to go on some long winded post, the issue is super complicated with all sorts of competing interests affecting the decision making and some things which are counter-intuative.

For example...

The Premier League has to try and compete with other foreign leagues for the best players and without doing so it risks a potential drop in revenue. Obviously clubs like Real & Barcelona operate differently within their own League set up, which adopts more of a 'Rangers / Celtic' domination approach and where increased spendinbg power and also prefereable climate & location as well as the overall Club status are a big draw for players. So from that perspective, there's a pressure on the EPL to retain as much cash within the confines of the 19 Clubs and potentially drive most of the revenue towards the top 5 Clubs.

Conversely, there's also a pressure to ensure that the League remains competitive so even for individual clubs some things are counter intuitive. It's in nobodies interests for one CLub to dominate and always win for example as that simply makes the League stale. I mean arguably that's a part of the issue with the Champions League..

Of course, there's also the longer term to consider, which requires investment at Grass Roots and ideally a strong League structure that sits beneath the EPL. This is desirable because it should bring up the overall standard of football within the country and improve the talent pool... That simply isn't possible by the type of scoop up all of the youngsters approach adopted by the Prem Clubs and through an academy system, because those players require exposure to competitive football and so a strong League is a vital component.... Of course, looking at it logically, if you really wanted to break the domination of the Spanish giants in European competition and also improve the English Natiuonal Team, then you really ought to be looking at the longer term and strengthening the quality of the Leagues root and branch as ultimately that will be achieved by producing a better standard of English born player...

This is why I said to S2020 that it was difficult to determine 'success' because the EPL has been very succesful in some ways, but at the same time it has not been very succesful and potentially even harmful in some other ways.


I really don't know what the answer is... or even if there is an answer TBH.... I mean once you dip your toe in the capitalist waters, you essentially accept that football will eventually eat itself. There is the option to legislate and to try and improve governance within the game, but if we legislate in the UK whilst other EU nations do not, then you potentially create a situation where legislation negatively impacts on the quality of the league, demand for the product drops off and the quality starts to spiral downwards...
 
On the first point the money that is drip fed directly from the PL/TV isn't an insignificant amount and the Seasiders share of the pot will rise considerably. Whether more should be shared is debatable but in certain quarters some are calling for the ending of parachute payments, but that will only create another vacuum and/or exacerbate the problem of top flight wages.

You could reasonably argue that the EFL clubs have become more reliant on home grown players because they cant afford to bring in expensive imports, and Chelsea for instance have a tremendous network that gives young British players the opportunity to work with the best.

I think parachute payments may have had it, tbh. Reading the BST evidence, they certainly do a good job of explaining how they completely skew the playing field for a few clubs' benefit. Makes you wonder how clubs like Huddersfield and Stoke have still got themselves into trouble.

I take it that quoting Chelsea as an example on youth development was a piss take, was it?
 
Apologies for any kerfuffle causes by this thread guys, we’re all Blackpool fans and that is all that matters. 🧡 However I must thank you all for this near two-ton run chase, it has been a team effort and I couldn’t have done it without you all! 😉😁👍🏻

C’mon England!! Let’s do this!! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿
 
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