War again

[20togo]

Again the guilt by association argument.

Hamas seems to have banned elections - the last election in Gaza was in 2006, in which Hamas got 44% (I think). They were certainly not in the majority then. The more moderate Palestinian authority got something like 40%.
Without endangering their own lives, how can the majority of Gazan's who oppose Hamas get rid of Hamas if there are no elections?

Governance of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You are really not up to date on this.

I've already posted this link once.

Index PSR Polls | PCPSR

www.pcpsr.org

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Jeez, are you even reading all my posts. You've got into your head that the state of Palestine is NOT universally recognised. I've already proven fo S you a while back that Palestine is recognised by 139 of the United Nations member states. And Hamas runs one of the two territories making up the state of Palestine. So as such it is much more than a terrorist organisation.

Looks like a deflection - Hamas is clearly not a state.

Can you answer the questions please;

Should Israel follow international law?
Are the Christians in Gaza legitimate targets?
How can the population of Gaza get a different government if there are no elections?

 

[20togo]

Looks like a deflection - Hamas is clearly not a state.

Can you answer the questions please;

Should Israel follow international law?
Are the Christians in Gaza legitimate targets?
How can the population of Gaza get a different government if there are no elections?

wow, just wow. I've never said it was a state, but stop trying to claim that Palestine is not a universally recognised state when it is. Not me that's deflecting.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

wow, just wow. I've never said it was a state, but stop trying to claim that Palestine is not a universally recognised state when it is.

You are wrong. Palestine is not universally recognised;

International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The UK does not recognize Palestine.

 

[20togo]

Looks like a deflection - Hamas is clearly not a state.

Can you answer the questions please;

Should Israel follow international law?
Are the Christians in Gaza legitimate targets?
How can the population of Gaza get a different government if there are no elections?

Jeez, you recognise Afghanistan as a state don't you? Do you think the Taliban will hold elections?

And yes Israel should follow International law You got evidence to suggest they are not?
Already mentioned the Christions but really don't get your point.
See my point about the Taliban. Afghanistan is still a recognised state though. Just like Palestine is.

 

[20togo]

You are wrong. Palestine is not universally recognised;

International recognition of the State of Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The UK does not recognize Palestine.

deflect deflect deflect. Palestine is recognised by 138 of the 193 UN member states. Are you trying to make it just a British issue. Even then we recognise it in some format.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Jeez, you recognise Afghanistan as a state don't you? Do you think the Taliban will hold elections?

And yes Israel should follow International law You got evidence to suggest they are not?
Already mentioned the Christions but really don't get your point.
See my point about the Taliban. Afghanistan is still a recognised state though. Just like Palestine is.

The comparison with Afghanistan is meaningless - I think I'm going to leave it there if you cannot accept what is actually a fact.
Look at the Wikipedia link above. The US and the UK along with 53 other countries do not recognise Palestine as a state, they do not have embassies there and do not have established diplomatic links with them - that is a small part of what this whole conflict is all about.
If Palestine were officially a state, for instance, it would be much harder for illegal Israeli land grabs to take place in the West Bank.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

deflect deflect deflect. Palestine is recognised by 138 of the 193 UN member states. Are you trying to make it just a British issue. Even then we recognise it in some format.

You said 'but stop trying to claim that Palestine is not a universally recognised state when it is.'
But your message above shows that it isn't universally recognised - can you accept this?

Why do you think that people keep mentioning 'the two state solution'?
Because the second state - Palestine - is not a fully recognised state, and some think (myself included) that a solution to the conflict involves a full Palestinian state (recognised and supported by the rest of the international community) with the same rights and responsibilities as any other state.

 

[Shandypants]

Islamist have been attacking and killing Jews for the last 75 years it’s the way it is the Palestinian children are brought up hating the Jews so it’ll carry on another 75 years they just cannot and will not accept a Jewish state in that region.

Jews are attacking and killing Palestinians in the west bank, to build on their land. Its obvious that Israel want to drive them into Jordon or Egypt.

 

[20togo]

You said 'but stop trying to claim that Palestine is not a universally recognised state when it is.'
But your message above shows that it isn't universally recognised - can you accept this?

Why do you think that people keep mentioning 'the two state solution'?
Because the second state - Palestine - is not a fully recognised state, and some think (myself included) that a solution to the conflict involves a full Palestinian state (recognised and supported by the rest of the international community) with the same rights and responsibilities as any other state.

so people keep mentioning the two nation solution when I've shown you evidence they are not in favour of it. I see it as the only logical solution. You are only seeing what you want to see. As iI said to Mex, The way you talk, ir comes across as if this is is 100% down to Israel what is happening here when it most definitely is not. The blame game.

 

[20togo]

Jews are attacking and killing Palestinians in the west bank, to build on their land. Its obvious that Israel want to drive them into Jordon or Egypt.

that is a problem which i've said before is utterly reprehensible and which should be pretty much at the top of the list when this conflict ends. Hopefully soon.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

so people keep mentioning the two state solution when I've shown you evidence they are not in favour of it. I see it as the only logical solution. You are only seeing what you want to see. As iI said to Mex, The way you talk, ir comes across as if this is is 100% down to Israel what is happening here when it most definitely is not. The blame game.

You’re now playing “the blame game” card? Jesus.

No one on here has condoned or tried to justify the atrocities committed by Hamas.

By contrast several posters on here have repeatedly tried to justify and condone the Israeli response with the line “well Hamas started it”.

And by doing that they not only put 100% of the responsibility on Hamas, while ignoring who are actually dropping the bombs and firing the artillery on and into Gaza. They are also trying to put 100% responsibility onto the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. For being there. Or being related to some of the terrorists. Or for not getting rid of Hamas in some way.

In other words, you’re the one playing “blame game”. Blame Hamas by all means if you want. But don’t blame the children being blown into pieces by IDF ordinance. Or worst still. Buried alive under a building shared with their dead parents. Until they finally also die.

 

[Shandypants]

so people keep mentioning the two nation solution when I've shown you evidence they are not in favour of it. I see it as the only logical solution. You are only seeing what you want to see. As iI said to Mex, The way you talk, ir comes across as if this is is 100% down to Israel what is happening here when it most definitely is not. The blame game.

The two state solution was within touching distance after the Oslo agreement. The PLO were happy, unfortunately an extremist Zionist assassinated Rabin the serving Israeli PM and the rest is history. I personally think there is a sizable Israeli element who will never accept a two state solution, I don't think the Palestinian people were the obstruction to peace at the time of Oslo.

 

[Shandypants]

Islamist have been attacking and killing Jews for the last 75 years it’s the way it is the Palestinian children are brought up hating the Jews so it’ll carry on another 75 years they just cannot and will not accept a Jewish state in that region.

I'd say this is incorrect. The PLO were secular, it's only a recent development that islamists have got involved. And guess who promoted and funded Hamas to undermine the PLO?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The two state solution was within touching distance after the Oslo agreement. The PLO were happy, unfortunately an extremist Zionist assassinated Rabin the serving Israeli PM and the rest is history. I personally think there is a sizable Israeli element who will never accept a two state solution, I don't think the Palestinian people were the obstruction to peace at the time of Oslo.

Jaffa will be along in a minute complaining that you’re talking about stuff from decades ago.

But yes it’s fair to say there’s opposition to a two state solution. From both sides. But most importantly at the moment, from the current Israeli government. As far as they are concerned, an Arab free Israel is within reach. Hence the increasing tensions and death toll in the West Bank. Whose party chants “Death to all Arabs”? So why would they entertain a two state solution?

 

[20togo]

You’re now playing “the blame game” card? Jesus.

No one on here has condoned or tried to justify the atrocities committed by Hamas.

By contrast several posters on here have repeatedly tried to justify and condone the Israeli response with the line “well Hamas started it”.

And by doing that they not only put 100% of the responsibility on Hamas, while ignoring who are actually dropping the bombs and firing the artillery on and into Gaza. They are also trying to put 100% responsibility onto the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. For being there. Or being related to some of the terrorists. Or for not getting rid of Hamas in some way.

In other words, you’re the one playing “blame game”. Blame Hamas by all means if you want. But don’t blame the children being blown into pieces by IDF ordinance. Or worst still. Buried alive under a building shared with their dead parents. Until they finally also die.

But you want to blame Netanyahu, I blame Hamas. And in all this innocent people are being killed and it was started by Hamas. You can't get away from that fact. Because it's a fact that if 7/10 hadn't happened then thousands of "innocent civilians would not have lost their lives. Maybe that's an uncomfortable truth for you! So pretty much damn right there's a blame game whether you like it or not. Sven made a statement that Israel had options. I asked him what options? Has he replied? What realistic options did Israel have? Remember Hamas are an organisation who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Islamist have been attacking and killing Jews for the last 75 years it’s the way it is the Palestinian children are brought up hating the Jews so it’ll carry on another 75 years they just cannot and will not accept a Jewish state in that region.

Half true.

Now Google Nabka for the other half.

 

[Brazil]

So we know and agree what Hamas is. And by that you'll mean that they are a terrorist organisation. But you need to accept they are much more than that. They are the ruling party in the territory of Gaza which is part of the state of Palestine which is recognised by 139 members of the United Nations. You seem to overlook that fact. So does that not bind them to all the things you suggest Israel are bound by?

Yes, I know all that. Hamas is an ideology( and we should ask ourselves why they won that election) and ideologies are not easily eliminated. I don´t overlook anything. I certainly don´t overlook the sheer hypocrisy involved in all this sorry, sordid mess. Israel declared war. They are bound by International Humanitarian Law and the ``laws of war``. This they totally ignore. The fact Israel is in the process of attempting to destroy Hamas does not give them carte blanche to kill thousands of innocent civilians And prevent food, medicine and water and other basic necessities of life to those innocent people. I make no apology for being a supporter of the Palestinian cause. I am against violence, terrosirm and anti-human actions but the greatest obstacle to peace in the ME is Israel, especially the current extremist government there. A 2 state solution, not one that pays lip-service to the idea, is the only hope. Tragic that Israel won´t have any of it.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I'd say this is incorrect. The PLO were secular, it's only a recent development that islamists have got involved. And guess who promoted and funded Hamas to undermine the PLO?

Really?
Iran and Syria, to name but 2 countries have said since the birth of the state of Israel that it must be eradicated.
They amongst all others supply jihadi fighters with all the weapons, training, and funds it needs.
After all this has ended and investigations are carried out it will be them who were behind 07/10/23 as Hamas alone just could not have done it.
And as I keep saying once this war is over other wars and massacres will follow its the Islamist’s way of doing things it just won’t end.

 

[Brazil]

Maybe Hamas should put a distance then between them and the civilians instead of hiding behind them?

Doesn´t excuse Israel´s blatant disregard for innocent human life.

 

[20togo]

Yes, I know all that. Hamas is an ideology( and we should ask ourselves why they won that election) and ideologies are not easily eliminated. I don´t overlook anything. I certainly don´t overlook the sheer hypocrisy involved in all this sorry, sordid mess. Israel declared war. They are bound by International Humanitarian Law and the ``laws of war``. This they totally ignore. The fact Israel is in the process of attempting to destroy Hamas does not give them carte blanche to kill thousands of innocent civilians And prevent food, medicine and water and other basic necessities of life to those innocent people. I make no apology for being a supporter of the Palestinian cause. I am against violence, terrosirm and anti-human actions but the greatest obstacle to peace in the ME is Israel, especially the current extremist government there. A 2 state solution, not one that pays lip-service to the idea, is the only hope. Tragic that Israel won´t have any of it.

i understand what you say, but when Hamas is using civilians to hide behind then can you really put the blame totally at Israels door. Israel say they are are targetting legitimate Hamas bases and there is no factual evidence to prove otherwise. Hamas potentially perhaps thousands and thousands of members. And yes of course Israel has a ready made excuse ti hide behind when supposed civilians are being killed. But remember this. Hamas gave them that excuse. As i said earlier, look at the disproportionate figure of women and children supposedly killed. Why is the male adult figure only 25% of the total? Are all the men hiding using women and children to hide behind. So no, it's not just down to Israel at all.

 

[20togo]

Doesn´t excuse Israel´s blatant disregard for innocent human life.

see my previous post.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

But you want to blame Netanyahu, I blame Hamas. And in all this innocent people are being killed and it was started by Hamas. You can't get away from that fact. Because it's a fact that if 7/10 hadn't happened then thousands of "innocent civilians would not have lost their lives. Maybe that's an uncomfortable truth for you! So pretty much damn right there's a blame game whether you like it or not. Sven made a statement that Israel had options. I asked him what options? Has he replied? What realistic options did Israel have? Remember Hamas are an organisation who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Yes I blame Netanyahu. After all he was the one who “fed the monster” and cosied up to Hamas so he didn’t have to talk to Fatah about a two state solution. Which apparently you are keen on. He’s also the one who created a coalition government with a fanatical party led by Ben Gvir, and then implemented a plan to bring down the courts so that he could evade corruption charges.

And yes I blame Hamas as well. A cult who worship death. Their own and everyone else’s. Who murder and rape innocent people and don’t care how many die.

It’s literally a marriage made in hell with children caught in the middle.

As for “other options”. I gave you a military one earlier. A massive surge of infantry without artillery or air support that costs so many civilian lives. To use your and Jaffa’s terminology “face to face”; “man to man”; “stop hiding behind the civilians/your firepower” and “grow a pair”. Won’t happen of course as the body count of the IDF would escalate and Netanyahu and his followers would be out of power within days.

But yes there are options.

 

[basilrobbie3]

But you want to blame Netanyahu, I blame Hamas. And in all this innocent people are being killed and it was started by Hamas. You can't get away from that fact. Because it's a fact that if 7/10 hadn't happened then thousands of "innocent civilians would not have lost their lives. Maybe that's an uncomfortable truth for you! So pretty much damn right there's a blame game whether you like it or not. Sven made a statement that Israel had options. I asked him what options? Has he replied? What realistic options did Israel have? Remember Hamas are an organisation who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

You don't know about Netanyahu's history of support for Hamas then?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

You don't know about Netanyahu's history of support for Hamas then?

He does. He just chooses to ignore it.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Doesn´t excuse Israel´s blatant disregard for innocent human life.

But what about the innocent human life massacred on day one of this conflict?
1,400 men women children and babies many who were mutilated and burned alive the lucky ones died quickly.
Should Israel just turn a blind eye to it all and try and forgive and hold peace talks?

 

[20togo]

Yes I blame Netanyahu. After all he was the one who “fed the monster” and cosied up to Hamas so he didn’t have to talk to Fatah about a two state solution. Which apparently you are keen on. He’s also the one who created a coalition government with a fanatical party led by Ben Gvir, and then implemented a plan to bring down the courts so that he could evade corruption charges.

And yes I blame Hamas as well. A cult who worship death. Their own and everyone else’s. Who murder and rape innocent people and don’t care how many die.

It’s literally a marriage made in hell with children caught in the middle.

As for “other options”. I gave you a military one earlier. A massive surge of infantry without artillery or air support that costs so many civilian lives. To use your and Jaffa’s terminology “face to face”; “man to man”; “stop hiding behind the civilians/your firepower” and “grow a pair”. Won’t happen of course as the body count of the IDF would escalate and Netanyahu and his followers would be out of power within days.

But yes there are options.

why should Israel risk a "massive surge of infantry" when it can do a "decent" job from the air. Doesn't make sense to get more of their troops killed than is absolutely necessary. So no, that's not a reasonable option. And I suspect you know that or should do.

I make my points and Jaffa makes his. Even though we are "on the same side" as such we don't have to agree.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

why should Israel risk a "massive surge of infantry" when it can do a "decent" job from the air. Doesn't make sense to get more of their troops killed than is absolutely necessary. So no, that's not a reasonable option. And I suspect you know that or should do.

I make my points and Jaffa makes his. Even though we are "on the same side" as such we don't have to agree.

Re your first paragraph - about as daft as Jaffa’s call for Hamas to stop “hiding behind civilians” and line up to be shot by the IDF.

Re your final paragraph - seeing as how you’re so keen on “collective responsibility” I’ve lumped you, Jaffa, Lost, April and the late lamented Little “flatten Gaza” Phil in the same basket.

 

[20togo]

You don't know about Netanyahu's history of support for Hamas then?

I've read about it on here. So? Sounds like in your opinion then this is all Netanyahu fault and even though he might have backed and financed them years back they are still happy to carry out the atrocities. And you seem happy with that.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

why should Israel risk a "massive surge of infantry" when it can do a "decent" job from the air. Doesn't make sense to get more of their troops killed than is absolutely necessary. So no, that's not a reasonable option. And I suspect you know that or should do.

I make my points and Jaffa makes his. Even though we are "on the same side" as such we don't have to agree.

Because doing 'a decent job from the air' involves killing a load of innocent civilians and may well be against international law.
You said earlier that Israel should obey international law.

 

[20togo]

Re your first paragraph - about as daft as Jaffa’s call for Hamas to stop “hiding behind civilians” and line up to be shot by the IDF.

Re your final paragraph - seeing as how you’re so keen on “collective responsibility” I’ve lumped you, Jaffa, Lost, April and the late lamented Little “flatten Gaza” Phil in the same basket.

They could just try and blend back into civilian life but maybe you think all these Gazan people would identify them.

Perhaps i could lump you you in with Wollygon. You know the anti semite brigade. Of course I wouldn't do that.

 

[20togo]

Because doing 'a decent job from the air' involves killing a load of innocent civilians and may well be against international law.
You said earlier that Israel should obey international law.

No it doesn't. They are targetting legitimate Hamas targets. That's what they say. Like I said, there's a propaganda war going on too. And as i keep saying Israel has a ready made excuse to hide behind. Because evidence has been shown that Hamas are hiding behind civilians and using civilian bases.

 

[basilrobbie3]

I've read about it on here. So? Sounds like in your opinion then this is all Netanyahu fault and even though he might have backed and financed them years back they are still happy to carry out the atrocities. And you seem happy with that.

You've managed to infer a lot from one fairly neutral question, haven't you?

The point people are making to you is that Netanyahu is reaping a whirlwind of his own making, created by a desire to have a political solution that suited the right wing of his own party and no-one else.

Thousands of Palestinian civilians are paying the ultimate price for that. Not to mention the hundreds of Israeli women who were raped, tortured and slaughtered. But you keep defending him if you really must have the last word.

 

[Shandypants]

Really?
Iran and Syria, to name but 2 countries have said since the birth of the state of Israel that it must be eradicated.
They amongst all others supply jihadi fighters with all the weapons, training, and funds it needs.
After all this has ended and investigations are carried out it will be them who were behind 07/10/23 as Hamas alone just could not have done it.
And as I keep saying once this war is over other wars and massacres will follow its the Islamist’s way of doing things it just won’t end.

Syria is a secular state. The Arab/Israeli involved predominantly secular states.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza? [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 30 Oct 2023 by HRW

reliefweb.int

 

[20togo]

You've managed to infer a lot from one fairly neutral question, haven't you?

The point people are making to you is that Netanyahu is reaping a whirlwind of his own making, created by a desire to have a political solution that suited the right wing of his own party and no-one else.

Thousands of Palestinian civilians are paying the ultimate price for that. Not to mention the hundreds of Israeli women who were raped, tortured and slaughtered. But you keep defending him if you really must have the last word.

not sure I've specifically defended him at all so lets not make things up. I've defended Israel as a nation the right to react to the atrocities carried out by Hamas. Perhaps I should blame Churchill for bombing Dresden!.

I'll ignore your last cheap shot for now.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza? [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 30 Oct 2023 by HRW

reliefweb.int

I assume this is directed at Lost?

If so I think you’ll find that the only people able to comment on these issues are officially accredited Tufty Street journalists who write for the Telegraph. From behind a paywall so you can’t actually see what they’ve said.

Otherwise it just doesn’t count.

 

[20togo]

I assume this is directed at Lost?

If so I think you’ll find that the only people able to comment on these issues are officially accredited Tufty Street journalists who write for the Telegraph. From behind a paywall so you can’t actually see what they’ve said.

Otherwise it just doesn’t count.

yeah something we agree on. Hiding behind a paywall that is. Stuff that.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

I assume this is directed at Lost?

If so I think you’ll find that the only people able to comment on these issues are officially accredited Tufty Street journalists who write for the Telegraph. From behind a paywall so you can’t actually see what they’ve said.

Otherwise it just doesn’t count.

No 20s, when he said that Israeli actions are within international law - which he thinks Israel should obey.
But yes, also Lost.
Without the ongoing war Netanyahu is finished as a politician. He is also arguably a war criminal. And as shown he has played a part in creating the conditions for the murderous actions of Hamas. I'm not really sure why he is getting so much support on here. How many deaths are enough? Hamas cannot be exterminated because it is an idea.

 

[20togo]

No 20s, when he said that Israeli actions are within international law - which he thinks Israel should obey.
But yes, also Lost.
Without the ongoing war Netanyahu is finished as a politician. He is also arguably a war criminal. And as shown he has played a part in creating the conditions for the murderous actions of Hamas. I'm not really sure why he is getting so much support on here. How many deaths are enough? Hamas cannot be exterminated because it is an idea.

don't misquote me. Have i said that Israels actions are within international law? What I've said, is they have a ready made excuse to hide behind.But it's a pretty damn good one imo. The propaganda war,

And there you go again. See my reply to Robbie. I've defended Israels right to re-act to the atrocities carried out by Hamas. And once again, there's your suggestion that it's all Israels fault and all these deaths are down to them. And Hamas is more than an idea because it's backed up by actions. And actions aren't ideas. Actions are carried out by people. Will people with those ideas ever be eliminated? No probably not.

 

[ElBurroSinNombre]

don't misquote me. Have i said that Israels actions are within international law? What I've said, is they have a ready made excuse to hide behind.But it's a pretty damn good one imo. The propaganda war,

And there you go again. See my reply to Robbie. I've defended Israels right to re-act to the atrocities carried out by Hamas. And once again, there's your suggestion that it's all Israels fault and all these deaths are down to them. And Hamas is more than an idea because it's backed up by actions. And actions aren't ideas. Actions are carried out by people.

So you think that Israel can break international law in its response to the murderous acts of Hamas?

If you do not think that read the link above because it is clear that they are breaking international law. For instance, before bombing a civilian area they are required in international law to give warning to civilians so they can evacuate. Here is the view of an international law academic;

Israel’s War in Gaza is Not a Valid Act of Self-defence in International Law

[Ralph Wilde is a member of the Faculty of Laws, University College London, University of London] Israel captured the Palestinian Gaza Strip and West Bank from, respectively, Egypt and Jordan, in t…

opiniojuris.org

 

[Lost Seasider]

yeah something we agree on. Hiding behind a paywall that is. Stuff that.

The Telegraph's paywall is a piece of p*** to get round.

 

[20togo]

So you think that Israel can break international law in its response to the murderous acts of Hamas?

If you do not think that read the link above because it is clear that they are breaking international law. For instance, before bombing a civilian area they are required in international law to give warning to civilians so they can evacuate. Here is the view of an international law academic;

Israel’s War in Gaza is Not a Valid Act of Self-defence in International Law

[Ralph Wilde is a member of the Faculty of Laws, University College London, University of London] Israel captured the Palestinian Gaza Strip and West Bank from, respectively, Egypt and Jordan, in t…

opiniojuris.org

It's just talk though isn't it. What should and what does are two different things. I keep mentioning Israels ready made excuse. Is there something there in that persons opinion that says Israel can't target legitimate Hamas bases? As far as I'm aware Israel have issued many warnings such a leaf drops, maps of evacuation routes, txts to individuals ets. All I assume within international law. All part of the propaganda war showing them to be keeping onside. Not sure the document you've linked goes into that much detail anyway.

 

[Lost Seasider]

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza? [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory

News and Press Release in Arabic on occupied Palestinian territory about Protection and Human Rights; published on 30 Oct 2023 by HRW

reliefweb.int

Much the same as my Telegraph link, the overriding principle is proportionality, civilians cannot be directly targeted, and if they are likely to be collateral damage then that must be proportionate to the military objective.

Your link then leaps to the conclusion that Israel has committed war crimes, apparently on the basis of claims made by Hamas, this does not appear to be particularly well substantiated.

 

[Brazil]

But what about the innocent human life massacred on day one of this conflict?
1,400 men women children and babies many who were mutilated and burned alive the lucky ones died quickly.
Should Israel just turn a blind eye to it all and try and forgive and hold peace talks?

The massacre and abductions( and I´ve given my views on that before) have given the Israelis a huge problem. And,of course, they have a right to defend themselves but they are still bound by the laws of war and International Humanitarian Law. I´m surprised you don´t agree because, Jaffa, the implication from what you say is that Israel can do whatever it wants, irrespective of consequences to innocent civilians. No food, no water, no medicines, no energy and thousands of deaths. To say that it´s ``simply``( not your word) the fault of Hamas doesn´t excuse Israel´s obligations under International Humanitarian Law.

 

[Brazil]

i understand what you say, but when Hamas is using civilians to hide behind then can you really put the blame totally at Israels door. Israel say they are are targetting legitimate Hamas bases and there is no factual evidence to prove otherwise. Hamas potentially perhaps thousands and thousands of members. And yes of course Israel has a ready made excuse ti hide behind when supposed civilians are being killed. But remember this. Hamas gave them that excuse. As i said earlier, look at the disproportionate figure of women and children supposedly killed. Why is the male adult figure only 25% of the total? Are all the men hiding using women and children to hide behind. So no, it's not just down to Israel at all.

20s, see my last post to Jaffa. Thanks.

 

[Sven]

But you want to blame Netanyahu, I blame Hamas. And in all this innocent people are being killed and it was started by Hamas. You can't get away from that fact. Because it's a fact that if 7/10 hadn't happened then thousands of "innocent civilians would not have lost their lives. Maybe that's an uncomfortable truth for you! So pretty much damn right there's a blame game whether you like it or not. Sven made a statement that Israel had options. I asked him what options? Has he replied? What realistic options did Israel have? Remember Hamas are an organisation who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

I did reply to that question, you asked the question twice and I replied to the first one. I mentioned international law. On that subject, we'll find out whether it's been broken eventually, the ICC are currently building cases against both sides. Busy with work today, have a good one.

 

[20togo]

20s, see my last post to Jaffa. Thanks.

yep, I've seen it. There's no doubt that Gaza is a hell hole on earth at the moment and no one probably feels safe wherever they are above ground. And of course much more needs to be done with regards to Humanitarian aid but Israel has to be certain that all the aid is going to the people who need it most. I daresay that Hamas will use the force of gun to make sure they get what they want.

 

[20togo]

I did reply to that question, you asked the question twice and I replied to the first one. I mentioned international law. On that subject, we'll find out whether it's been broken eventually, the ICC are currently building cases against both sides. Busy with work today, have a good one.

yes, I agree. And yep they may charge Netanyahu with war crimes. Do you seriously think he'll serve any sentence? And they certainly won't make Israel a pariah state or impose any sanctions against them. So basically what does it come down to? A slapped wrist and some harsh words written on paper. In effect very little. That's the reality.

 

[Wizaard]

Because doing 'a decent job from the air' involves killing a load of innocent civilians and may well be against international law.
You said earlier that Israel should obey international law.

You need to bear in mind that anyone who worked for BAE will always be in favour of doing the job from the air