War again

basilrobbie3 said:
There is over a century of resentment in play here. All caused by the fact that the Palestinians were given assurances about their homeland in the political aftermath of WW1, and watched as others got what they wanted, while they didn't. Even worse, the most fertile and valuable land that they regarded as "theirs" was handed over to the Jews.

What followed was a trickle of Jewish migration that turned into a flood once Hitler first gained power and then occupied much of Western Europe. Which in turn lead to the formal creation of the state of Israel, when the West's collective guilt about the Holocaust meant that they weren't really thinking about how the wider region would receive this.

The Palestinians regarded that as a prolonged betrayal, and still do. They haven't forgotten who they think caused their current plight, even if you dismiss it as unimportant.
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that's all fair comment but it doesn't make what has happened NOW right does it? And surely what happened with regards to the creation of the Israeli state wasn't done with bad intentions. Don't overlook that!
 
Just watching the news, it's depressing how Israel are going to use this to completely destroy Gaza. 800,000 children live in Gaza.
 
Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.
House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.
Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu described the reports as "absolutely false".

Netanyahu telling porkies again
 
What on earth did Hamas think they would gain by the atrocities they committed? Did they just want Israel to completely destroy Gaza? Did they think the world would turn against Israel? What’s happening now to the people of Gaza is absolutely terrifying. Did they think it was worth all those innocent lives being lost? Make no mistake, Hamas are to blame, but the west, especially the USA should have told Netanyahu to defend itself, but not destroy innocent people who are trapped. With electricity finally cut off today, it wouldn’t surprise me if the ground offensive starts tonight.
 
basilrobbie3 said:
This.

Our historical role in this sorry saga does not make good reading at all.

This s not a binary issue. Our natural sympathy for the Jewish race as a result of what happened to them in Europe in the 30's and 40's doesn't given them a blank cheque. They've behaved abominably towards Palestinians for a very long time now, and it all stems from the balls up that the major colonial powers made of managing the break up of the Ottoman Empire which Ollygon referred to. Britain being one of the worst culprits.
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As usual, spot on!
 
Just listened to the Palestinian ambassador who speaks very well. He thinks the UK has an obligation to sort out this mess and I agree.

 
Memphisboy said:
Don’t think what happened in Israel can’t happen here. You’ve seen the demonstrations in London Manchester, hundreds of thousands military aged males arriving every year that we know nothing about, all done on purpose and supported by hand wringing liberals. Where do you think their loyalties lie. It only needs to escalate and the order will go out, what happens then? I wouldn’t go to London for love nor money nowadays
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That's complete and utter bollocks that completely ignores thousands of years of history.
 
April13th1970 said:
Personally I'd have said it's Ismail Haniyeh who's caught from the same cloth as Hitler rather than Netanyahu.

Haniyeh and his Hamas terrorists have pledged to destroy Israel and drive the Jewish race into the sea, which sounds a lot to me like Hitler's final solution

Netanyahu, his Likud party and the state of Israel have always sought to defend themselves from this terrorist aggression, and, whilst no one would dispute their response has been a little heavy-handed at times, they have predominantly sought to strike back against known legitimate hamas targets, unlike the civilian non-combatant s that Hamas rockets are indiscriminately launched towards.

Whilst , unfortunately, there have been Palestinian civilian casualties, many of these are collateral damage as a result of the cowardly hamasd leadership hiding amongst their civilian population and thereby using them as human shields. As such, it seems to me that blame for the deaths of many of these Palestinian civilians can be laid squarely at the door of the cowardly Hamas terrorists
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Ah, collateral damage, that old chestnut of an excuse.

Here's a question, and it works for both sides, if you knew an enemy was hiding in a block of flats surrounded by dozens of innocent families, would you bomb that building, actually push the button?

Israel or Palestine, their leaders are just different sides of the same coin, we're a ** ridiculous species, stick a sample of the population of both sides in a room and they'd get along just fine 99% of the time, it's just the fear mongering, propaganda and rhetoric of those in power that fucks it all up, as it always has done.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
Here's a question, and it works for both sides, if you knew an enemy was hiding in a block of flats surrounded by dozens of innocent families, would you bomb that building, actually push the button?
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I wouldn't but if I knew that for the best part of 3000 years, every nation that had invaded my race's homeland, and the governments of most countries that my race had been forced to seek sanctuary in, had systematically tried to eradicate my race, I might feel a little differently
 
I think it's worth saying that i feel genuinely sorry for those innocent Palestinians who are living in fear and with seemingly nowhere to go or escape to. But I daresay, they've been living in fear of Hamas too and daren't speak out against them for fear of reprisals.
 
20togo said:
I think it's worth saying that i feel genuinely sorry for those innocent Palestinians who are living in fear and with seemingly nowhere to go or escape to. But I daresay, they've been living in fear of Hamas too and daren't speak out against them for fear of reprisals.
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Good post.
 
April13th1970 said:
I wouldn't but if I knew that for the best part of 3000 years, every nation that had invaded my race's homeland, and the governments of most countries that my race had been forced to seek sanctuary in, had systematically tried to eradicate my race, I might feel a little differently
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Fair comment but it makes for a massively difficult resolution.
 
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20togo said:
I think it's worth saying that i feel genuinely sorry for those innocent Palestinians who are living in fear and with seemingly nowhere to go or escape to. But I daresay, they've been living in fear of Hamas too and daren't speak out against them for fear of reprisals.
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Yes and it would be interesting to know how many from Hamas are actually even Palestinians.
 
Shandypants said:
We acted dishonestly and stitched up the Arabs for our own ends. Then came up with the Balfour agreement with the Jews. We created the worlds greatest hotspot and wash our hands of it.
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I think that, post-war, the British influence in the area has dwindled massively. America is where the answer lies.
 
Shandypants said:
Just watching the news, it's depressing how Israel are going to use this to completely destroy Gaza. 800,000 children live in Gaza.
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It’s even more depressing that Hamas didn’t give a flying fu*k thinking that this would happen when they attacked Israel and murdered over 1,200 people including many children/babies many who were kidnapped and dragged off to Gaza probably never to be seen again.
 
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Shandypants said:
We acted dishonestly and stitched up the Arabs for our own ends. Then came up with the Balfour agreement with the Jews. We created the worlds greatest hotspot and wash our hands of it.
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seems some of you want it both ways. You criticise when we get involved in what is happening in other "hotspots" around the world yet you now want us to find a solution to the middle east crisis whilst seemingly avoiding the key fact that the aim of Hamas and Iran is to wipe the state of Israel of the map. Is it stating the obvious that there has been a massive insurgence of Islamic ideology over the last ten years or so and that as it continues can only ever lead to more problems and conflict with the state of Israel. As i said in an earlier post, the state of Israel was not created with bad intentions and now the citizens of that country should be able to live in peace without the constant threat of problems with their Arab neighbours. And of course within the state of Israel itself it's own citizens, especially those with the extremist views, need to be kept in check when it comes to issues like the reclaiming of settlements.

And I find it sad that this country is in fear of not being able to pay our respects to those Israeli innocent civilians who were brutally slain for fear of upsetting the Arab/muslim community living in this country.
 
An excellent article that highlights the reasons why Hamas acted in what is an apparent suicide mission and why Netanyahu has enabled them.
foreignpolicy.com

Netanyahu’s Road to War

The Israeli leader sought to sideline the Palestinians while wooing the Arab states. Now he faces a bloody backlash.
foreignpolicy.com foreignpolicy.com
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Just been watching Sky news reports say Hamas have been cutting the throats of babies some even were beheaded.

Now remind me again why you want our Government to Condem the Israelis because I’m at a complete loss here. 🤷‍♂️
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Have you listened to the news or are you so blinkered you can't see the overall picture?

The Israeli government have cut off essential supplies to Gaza meaning millions of people are without power, water and hospital treatment. The United Nations have condemned this but as far as I'm aware the government has not even mentioned it.

If you are happy to support the persecution of millions of innocent people the so be it.
 
20togo said:
seems some of you want it both ways. You criticise when we get involved in what is happening in other "hotspots" around the world yet you now want us to find a solution to the middle east crisis whilst seemingly avoiding the key fact that the aim of Hamas and Iran is to wipe the state of Israel of the map. Is it stating the obvious that there has been a massive insurgence of Islamic ideology over the last ten years or so and that as it continues can only ever lead to more problems and conflict with the state of Israel. As i said in an earlier post, the state of Israel was not created with bad intentions and now the citizens of that country should be able to live in peace without the constant threat of problems with their Arab neighbours. And of course within the state of Israel itself it's own citizens, especially those with the extremist views, need to be kept in check when it comes to issues like the reclaiming of settlements.

And I find it sad that this country is in fear of not being able to pay our respects to those Israeli innocent civilians who were brutally slain for fear of upsetting the Arab/muslim community living in this country.
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You might want to read the balanced article I've just posted, it explains the situation very well and I've learnt from how it paints Netanyahu to be wrong un, it's seems like extremism it as the heart of the govt.
With regards to wanting it "both" ways I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. If only life was as black and white as you paint it, every situation has its own subtle nuances.
 
20togo said:
You haven't made one single comment on the situation that is happening in the middle east instead preferring to point score. Absolute shame on you, you warped individual. Pretty much everyone else on this thread discusses the problems of the middle east and whether they are choosing sides or not they are still condemnung what is happening. Apart from opportunistic you.
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As usual you refuse to take the blinkers off and call somebody a 'warped individual' just because they don't agree with you. If you are happy to stand by the Israeli government so be it but most 'right minded people' like the United Nations are totally condemning their barbaric actions.

I clearly condemn the actions of the Hamas terrorists but I also condemn the actions of the Israeli government - you just fail to see both sides of the story.

Like when you called me a 'bigot' for saying I thought Alan Shearer was a better player than Harry Kane you again resort to personal insults - you really do take AVFTT into the gutter.

I won't be responding to any reply as you are clearly not worth the effort.
 
Shandypants said:
You might want to read the balanced article I've just posted, it explains the situation very well and I've learnt from how it paints Netanyahu to be wrong un, it's seems like extremism it as the heart of the govt.
With regards to wanting it "both" ways I'm not exactly sure what you are referring to. If only life was as black and white as you paint it, every situation has its own subtle nuances.
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I've read the article and it's a good read. But not once in all your posts on this thread have you condemned the atrocity carried out by Hamas.
 
Leither said:
As usual you refuse to take the blinkers off and call somebody a 'warped individual' just because they don't agree with you. If you are happy to stand by the Israeli government so be it but most 'right minded people' like the United Nations are totally condemning their barbaric actions.

I clearly condemn the actions of the Hamas terrorists but I also condemn the actions of the Israeli government - you just fail to see both sides of the story.

Like when you called me a 'bigot' for saying I thought Alan Shearer was a better player than Harry Kane you again resort to personal insults - you really do take AVFTT into the gutter.

I won't be responding to any reply as you are clearly not worth the effort.
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if you care to read my post in reply to you it was nothing to do whatsoever with taking sides. None whatsoever, and if you read a few of my subsequent posts you'll see that that is the case. My reply to you was all about you making it a political issue for this government. It's only in this last post of yours that you say you clearly condemn the actions of Hamas. Clearly a touch of hindsight then. So my comment about "warped individual" was nothing to do with not agreeing with me. It was all about you using this unfurling tragedy to do nothing more other than have a go at this government. Because not once, in your original post did you actujally refer to the events happening in Israel/Gaza.
 
Leither said:
Have you listened to the news or are you so blinkered you can't see the overall picture?

The Israeli government have cut off essential supplies to Gaza meaning millions of people are without power, water and hospital treatment. The United Nations have condemned this but as far as I'm aware the government has not even mentioned it.

If you are happy to support the persecution of millions of innocent people the so be it.
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Been watching the news pretty much on a daily basis since this massacre of innocent Jews on Saturday morning.

Yes it’s not nice to see what is in any war? But I repeat what I said earlier these terrorists (Hamas) have brought this on themselves plain and simple they didn’t give a flying fu*k what the consequences would be when murdering 1,200 innocent Jewish civilians many who were children/babies.

Did you feel the same sympathy for the Ukrainians as many thousands went without food/water/electricity for weeks on end during the early stages of the war or is it just this conflict that bothers you because I don’t recall seeing a post off you back then that’s all? Apologies if I’m wrong and I missed it.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Been watching the news pretty much on a daily basis since this massacre of innocent Jews on Saturday morning.

Yes it’s not nice to see what is in any war? But I repeat what I said earlier these terrorists (Hamas) have brought this on themselves plain and simple they didn’t give a flying fu*k what the consequences would be when murdering 1,200 innocent Jewish civilians many who were children/babies.
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well said. I find it staggering that Leither has a go at you but not once anywhere until he later replied to a post of mine did he actually comment on the atrocity committed by Hamas, Yet he seems to think his view is the balanced one!.
 
20togo said:
well said. I find it staggering that Leither has a go at you but not once anywhere until he later replied to a post of mine did he actually comment on the atrocity committed by Hamas, Yet he seems to think his view is the balanced one!.
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We all know what’s going on it’s just devastating for both sides especially for the thousands of innocent civilians especially the children caught up in all this but I’m staggered one or two on here still haven’t condemned Hamas for what they did Saturday morning to start all this off. 🤷‍♂️
I’m even more staggered people are actually blaming us and this government for this conflict and the history surrounding the state of Israel just what has this got to do with this massacre?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I’m even more staggered people are actually blaming us and this government for this conflict and the history surrounding the state of Israel just what has this got to do with this massacre?
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I am afraid that the history of the state of Israel has got everything to do with the current situation.

If a peaceful, two state solution had been arrived at, where both sides respect their borders, respect each other's right to exist and respect international law then it is possible that there could be peace and atrocities like the one seen (and the one unfolding) would not happen. Most people on both sides want to live happily with their families in a secure and peaceful state, religious differences can be overcome with some effort and a perception of fairness on both sides (Northern Ireland for instance). This is a very difficult objective to achieve but one which we in the West should be pursuing, like Clinton did in the 90s.

At the moment we are miles away from that.
The action by Hamas was a disgusting slaughter that cannot be justified. However, if you treat a group of people in an inhumane way backed up by the apparatus of the state a reaction is likely.
It is a complete shitshow, IMO the world needs to intervene and enforce a settlement of some sort (involving two states) and make sure that both sides adhere to it. However there are so many bad actors involved that a global consensus is very unlikely. This is a very dangerous time for the world.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I am afraid that the history of the state of Israel has got everything to do with the current situation.
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Would that be the history that shows that the vast majority of Jews were happy to accept the UN Partition Plan (Resolution 181) in 1948 that would have created a Jewish state and a Palestinian state in Mandatory Palestine? A plan which the Arab League rejected whilst making such proclamations as those by Arab League leader Azzam Pasha "We will sweep them [the Jews] into the sea." and Syrian president Shukri al-Quwatli "We shall eradicate Zionism."?

or are we talking about some sort of Anti-Semitic revisionist history where the Jews should have been (and should remain) happy to be eradicated to a degree that would have surpassed even Hitler's Final Solution and the resulting Holocaust?
 
Seasider3610 said:
Israel was warned by Egypt of potential violence three days before Hamas' deadly cross-border raid, a US congressional panel chairman has said.
House of Representatives Foreign Affairs Committee head Michael McCaul told reporters of the alleged warning.
Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu described the reports as "absolutely false".

Netanyahu telling porkies again
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What makes you think a congressman from Texas has better information than the Israeli PM?

Why are you trying to create a conspiracy theory out of this?
 
20togo said:
seems some of you want it both ways. You criticise when we get involved in what is happening in other "hotspots" around the world yet you now want us to find a solution to the middle east crisis whilst seemingly avoiding the key fact that the aim of Hamas and Iran is to wipe the state of Israel of the map. Is it stating the obvious that there has been a massive insurgence of Islamic ideology over the last ten years or so and that as it continues can only ever lead to more problems and conflict with the state of Israel. As i said in an earlier post, the state of Israel was not created with bad intentions and now the citizens of that country should be able to live in peace without the constant threat of problems with their Arab neighbours. And of course within the state of Israel itself it's own citizens, especially those with the extremist views, need to be kept in check when it comes to issues like the reclaiming of settlements.

And I find it sad that this country is in fear of not being able to pay our respects to those Israeli innocent civilians who were brutally slain for fear of upsetting the Arab/muslim community living in this country.
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Good post but I don't no where you get that last assumption from. The King and the Prince of Wales have called Hamas, terrorists. They are terrorists and I haven't heard of any important organisation in this country being afraid to say so....albeit the BBC is havering over the word.
 
he Just a thought but how different would life have been for the ordinary Palestinians if, instead of spending millions on Rockets, Bombs, Guns and Tanks, Hamas had used that money to build schools and hospitals and invest in Palestinian businesses
 
April13th1970 said:
he Just a thought but how different would life have been for the ordinary Palestinians if, instead of spending millions on Rockets, Bombs, Guns and Tanks, Hamas had used that money to build schools and hospitals and invest in Palestinian businesses
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I think you will find that they didn't "spend" anything.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
Good post but I don't no where you get that last assumption from. The King and the Prince of Wales have called Hamas, terrorists. They are terrorists and I haven't heard of any important organisation in this country being afraid to say so....albeit the BBC is havering over the word.
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I notice you add the word "important" organisation. It's fine that the King and POW have said what they have but my post was more about showing our sympathy. Often when tragedies like this happen, the country comes together in things like a minutes silence at sporting events up and down the country. It's about the tragedy that has happened. A bit like the country coming together over the war in Ukraine where the sight of the Ukranian flag was often seen and still is to this day. But it seems the FA don't want to offend the muslim community by flying the colours of the Israeli flag for fear of a backlash.
 
20togo said:
I notice you add the word "important" organisation. It's fine that the King and POW have said what they have but my post was more about showing our sympathy. Often when tragedies like this happen, the country comes together in things like a minutes silence at sporting events up and down the country. It's about the tragedy that has happened. A bit like the country coming together over the war in Ukraine where the sight of the Ukranian flag was often seen and still is to this day. But it seems the FA don't want to offend the muslim community by flying the colours of the Israeli flag for fear of a backlash.
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OK, that's clearer.
 
20togo said:
I notice you add the word "important" organisation. It's fine that the King and POW have said what they have but my post was more about showing our sympathy. Often when tragedies like this happen, the country comes together in things like a minutes silence at sporting events up and down the country. It's about the tragedy that has happened. A bit like the country coming together over the war in Ukraine where the sight of the Ukranian flag was often seen and still is to this day. But it seems the FA don't want to offend the muslim community by flying the colours of the Israeli flag for fear of a backlash.
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I'm guessing they don't want to light up the arch as it means condoning the actions of one side or the other in a very complicated ongoing and escalating situation.
If the greatest political minds on the planet haven't found an answer then you can see why a bunch of English football administrators are having an issue over a token of support.
Personally I'd light it up in some way to symbolise peace, love and unity but too many people seem to see the world like a Hollywood movie. That's great for despots, religious fanatics, arms dealers, shady financial transactions and psychopaths but doesn't help innocent victims wether they be Muslim, Jew or atheist!
 
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basilrobbie3 said:
I think you'll find that this is pretty much exactly how it works.
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i know, that was my point. Doesn't make it right though does it? So your point about spending nothing really means nothing other than it's a flippant remark back at April. Have I read anywhere your condemnation of the Hamas slaughter of innocent civilians or should i just assume you do.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I am afraid that the history of the state of Israel has got everything to do with the current situation.

If a peaceful, two state solution had been arrived at, where both sides respect their borders, respect each other's right to exist and respect international law then it is possible that there could be peace and atrocities like the one seen (and the one unfolding) would not happen. Most people on both sides want to live happily with their families in a secure and peaceful state, religious differences can be overcome with some effort and a perception of fairness on both sides (Northern Ireland for instance). This is a very difficult objective to achieve but one which we in the West should be pursuing, like Clinton did in the 90s.

At the moment we are miles away from that.
The action by Hamas was a disgusting slaughter that cannot be justified. However, if you treat a group of people in an inhumane way backed up by the apparatus of the state a reaction is likely.
It is a complete shitshow, IMO the world needs to intervene and enforce a settlement of some sort (involving two states) and make sure that both sides adhere to it. However there are so many bad actors involved that a global consensus is very unlikely. This is a very dangerous time for the world.
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So who are we going to blame then for this massacre? let’s name and shame them?

I’ll start and blame Syria and Hamas.

Your turn.
 
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What happened in the past can’t be undone, depending on your view, it was right to create the state of Israel after the war, on the other hand, there should have been an equal area created for Palestine.

What’s happening now will no doubt concentrate minds and hopefully out of this disaster a permanent solution will sorted.

Over 440 children killed in Gaza so far, that’s totally unacceptable as were the actions of Hamas .
 
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