War again

Many people have been on the side of Israel since the country was formed many years ago.
However, I think Israel will be losing a lot of supporters with their current approach to the situation.
Where do we go from here??
 
foggy said:
I literally posted about Hamas hiding behind civilians earlier in the thread. I'm well aware of their terrorism. You're barking up the wrong tree here.
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I'm simply using your post to make a point about Hamas aims. I'm aware of what you've already said.
 
Matesrates said:
I think this is going to go badly wrong for Israel, they’ve announced well in advance what they’re going to do, so Hamas will no doubt have already moved from the north and will regroup. Not only that, their standing with other sympathetic nations will increase and there will be a new generation of radicalised young Arabs ready to join Hamas.

It’s likely western support will be under pressure due to the humanitarian crisis they are creating.
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I'm not sure what is always announced and what happens is fully accurate. I'm pretty certain it's likely that there will be plenty of plain clothes Israeli troops/agents operating within Gaza for want of a better expression sussing out the lay of the land.
 
I will also repeat the point that for Israel to not re-act in a heavy handed manner would be seen as a big sign of weakness and only give more credence to future incursions of Hamas into Israel. Maybe Hamas see that as a victory but imo it's a pyrrhic one. But there again, that can be applied the other way round too.
 
20togo said:
I will also repeat the point that for Israel to not re-act in a heavy handed manner would be seen as a big sign of weakness and only give more credence to future incursions of Hamas into Israel. Maybe Hamas see that as a victory but imo it's a pyrrhic one. But there again, that can be applied the other way round too.
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After an IRA bomb would you have supported cutting off water and power to the Catholic community and encouraged the army to bomb it to the ground?
 
Shandypants said:
After an IRA bomb would you have supported cutting off water and power to the Catholic community and encouraged the army to bomb it to the ground?
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well that would be easy to give a flippant answer but I won't. I stand by my point that Israel had to act in a heavy handed manner in order to not show a sign of weakness. Of course, that level of heavy handedness could way exceed what it should do. What I will also add is that this Israel call for Palestinians to evacuate could well be more sinister than it first seems. From a humanitarian pov it's fine but is the aim really for Israel to retake a lot of the Gaza strip extending their border in the name of safety but thus denying those innocent Palestinians the right to return to their homeland. The long term aims of either Hamas or Israel could well be massively in conflict with each other.
 
20togo said:
well that would be easy to give a flippant answer but I won't. I stand by my point that Israel had to act in a heavy handed manner in order to not show a sign of weakness. Of course, that level of heavy handedness could way exceed what it should do. What I will also add is that this Israel call for Palestinians to evacuate could well be more sinister than it first seems. From a humanitarian pov it's fine but is the aim really for Israel to retake a lot of the Gaza strip extending their border in the name of safety but thus denying those innocent Palestinians the right to return to their homeland. The long term aims of either Hamas or Israel could well be massively in conflict with each other.
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Fair enough I wouldn't disagree with that
 
The Israelis want the civilians out of Gaza City so they can use devastating weapons against Palestinian fighters in their tunnels. Such as large air-fuel bombs that will penetrate into the tunnels. This will be to minimise casualties in their own army in an invasion of Gaza.

But all civilians left in Gaza City would also be killed. Which is why Hamas want them to stay as human shields. It seems the Hamas militia leadership has been planning for this war and want to fight it on their terms. Which the hardline Israeli Govt seems determined to prevent.

The Israelis are ignoring the impracticality of evacuating a million people in a day or two as the UN has pointed out. How can they evacuate hospitals filled with wounded?
 
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I think the Israelis would like to expel the Palestinians into Egypt, hence the evacuation order southwards. But the Egyptians do not want them and the Palestinians do not want to go.
 
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Archibald Knox said:
I think the Israelis would like to expel the Palestinians into Egypt, hence the evacuation order southwards. But the EgyptIans do not want them and the Palestinians do not want to go.
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The suggestion seems to be that once they've finished in the north, they'll order them back from the south, through checkpoints to filter out any "militants" before going to work in the south.
 
Shandypants said:
After an IRA bomb would you have supported cutting off water and power to the Catholic community and encouraged the army to bomb it to the ground?
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I think it was 125 IRA victims in England in 30 years, this was, adjusting for population, the equivalent of 10,000+ in a single day, or in US terms, perhaps 9/11 x 10.

Do they even make bombs that big? Maybe a huge fuel-air bomb dropped onto a music festival or a football stadium might cause casualties on that scale, but you're talking top tier military capabilities to do that, so far beyond anything the IRA could ever dream of.
 
Lost Seasider said:
The suggestion seems to be that once they've finished in the north, they'll order them back from the south, through checkpoints to filter out any "militants" before going to work in the south.
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How will they define a “militant” Palestinian? Any male between the ages of 15 and 40?
 
Archibald Knox said:
How will they define a “militant” Palestinian? Any male between the ages of 15 and 40?
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Presumably they'll have a list of names gathered over many years, and other techniques as well.

Some will get through, some will be stopped unjustly, that is unfortunate, maybe Hamas will think twice about beheading babies next time (I doubt it).
 
Lost Seasider said:
I think it was 125 IRA victims in England in 30 years, this was, adjusting for population, the equivalent of 10,000+ in a single day, or in US terms, perhaps 9/11 x 10.

Do they even make bombs that big? Maybe a huge fuel-air bomb dropped onto a music festival or a football stadium might cause casualties on that scale, but you're talking top tier military capabilities to do that, so far beyond anything the IRA could ever dream of.
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"adjusting for population" is this the justification for what's coming to Gaza? And your assertion of beheading babies has not been confirmed by the Israelis, its awash on social media. Maybe it makes it easier for people to justify in their own mind the upcoming atrocities.
 
Fighting started on the Lebanon border now following the death of a Jewish civilian builder by a rocket fired by Hezbollah.

No doubt some on here will be blaming the builder for working on a Sunday.
 
I’ve no idea how this will end, international pressure is, I’m sure, pressuring Israel to hold off going into Gaza, but if/when they do, it’s going to be messy and dangerous.
 
Israel started off with an eye for an eye.

It's now nearly two eyes for an eye, and it's only going to increase still more.

Absolutely no justification for the slaughter of so many people.
 
Ollygon said:
Israel started off with an eye for an eye.

It's now nearly two eyes for an eye, and it's only going to increase still more.

Absolutely no justification for the slaughter of so many people.
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So no justification for the slaughter a week ago last Saturday morning of all those innocent Jewish civilians?

Unbelievable comments.

I’m sure you say these sort of things just to be the stand out idiot on here and to get a reaction so well done you achieve both. 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
This is not an either/or situation and should not be a case of taking sides.

It’s perfectly possible to condemn the murders and atrocities committed by Hamas AND condemn war crimes committed by the Israeli forces and attempts by Israeli settlers to spread the crisis into the West Bank.
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indeed it is and rightly so. Yet it seems a good few on here can't do that.
 
I'm struggling with Egypts role in this. What possible reason is there to not allow humanitarian aid IN to Gaza. Anyone any thoughts?
 
20togo said:
I'm struggling with Egypts role in this. What possible reason is there to not allow humanitarian aid IN to Gaza. Anyone any thoughts?
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It could be used as cover for something more sinister, maybe moving weapons and ammunition into Gaza, perhaps senior Hamas personnel, or even hostages out.

Why Egypt is making this call, I don't know.
 
Lost Seasider said:
It could be used as cover for something more sinister, maybe moving weapons and ammunition into Gaza, perhaps senior Hamas personnel, or even hostages out.

Why Egypt is making this call, I don't know.
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yes perhaps but surely Israel have no control whatsoever on the Southern border.
 
20togo said:
yes perhaps but surely Israel have no control whatsoever on the Southern border.
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My understanding is that Egypt and Israel have joint control over the Rafah crossing and, despite requests from the US and the EU, Israel won’t agree to humanitarian aid going into Gaza.

Edit to add. This provides more detail.

Rafah border crossing: could Egypt open it to fleeing Palestinians? | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

As people in the Gaza Strip move south en masse, we look at the prospects of their being granted refuge in Sinai
amp.theguardian.com amp.theguardian.com
 
I've not read this thread but you can discuss the details all of your life and will never come up with a solution to the problems in this area because both sides believe their religion and history comes from the exact same bits of land and those are irreversible beliefs. Sadly, it will rumble on and on until the earth runs out of oxygen.
 
Reports that Israel has shelled the rafah border crossing to Egypt, not yet confirmed, but if verified, this would really turn opinions.
 
How come the West has given so much aid and weapons to Ukraine for the defence of their territory against Russias seizure and occupation of their land?

And yet over the years the Israelis have illegally grabbed and occupied even more Palestinian land, and the West arms and supports the Israelis

Double standards and prejudice against the Palestinians.
 
https://unherd.com/2023/10/do-israels-critics-understand-evil/

Jewish children and babies were, for a time, thrown alive into fire pits at Auschwitz. It has been calculated that, in this manner, the SS saved approximately two-fifths of a cent per child on Zyklon-B, the insecticide they used in the gas chambers. Were the children burned alive to save money? It would be obscene to suppose that economy explains such a horrific method of murder. The same holds for sealing people in a boxcar for as much as a week without telling them to bring water and food, neither of which the Nazis provided. Or sewing twins together back-to-back, as Dr Mengele once did at Auschwitz. (Gangrene immediately set in and they died in three days.)

In fact, nothing could explain such abominations. Primo Levi’s distinction between “useful” and “useless” violence makes this clear. Useful violence has an aim outside itself. A thief kills a witness to a crime in order to avoid capture. The victim would otherwise have been unmolested, but was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Such violence is evil, but useful in that it serves a purpose outside of itself. The thief might say: “I never wanted to hurt anybody, but then she came out of the back.” Perhaps he really is just unusually callous and stupid; he didn’t go looking for evil, but he found it. This explanation makes some sense, but does not excuse: the thief is going to prison for homicide, and rightly so.

Useless violence, however, is the deliberate production of pain and suffering as an end in itself. There is nothing apart from the violence to which one could point and say “that’s why they did these things”. The sole aim of useless violence is to torture, to inflict as much pain and suffering as possible. It is not evil, but Evil.
 
Sounds like the Americans might have been warned of a major imminent attack from somewhere if The Israelis don’t address the humanitarian issues in Gaza asap, or possibly even if they proceed with the ground assault there, hence the rushed Presidential visit?
All looking pretty ominous from here as it stands.
 
I have been reading this and wasn't going to post as there are no winners in this, as usual it is innocent civilians who bare the brunt of everything bad and I am not siding with either side, just on the side of humanity, which seems to be sadly missing from both sides military and political sides.

It is horrifying to read every day the awful things that are happening and the nailing colours to the mast attitude on here by a few posters is just as disappointing.

The thing that made me make a comment now is; why have they told the Palestinian civilians to evacuate Northern Gaza to the South and then have started to bomb the fuck out of the South, where the refugees have massed? It doesn't make any sense to me. It isn't going to end well, Iran and Hezolah are now getting more involved and if Hezbollah really go for it with Iran's backing then it will mean more Israeli civilians will die, I just don't understand how, in this day and age we, as humans, still act as savages against our fellow humans. I hope we, the UK, stay well in the background and are there to give aid where needed and to provide help with negotiations, although it is going to get a lot lot worse before it gets better.

We have so much progress in the world and life in general these days but we still manage to revert to type so easily.
 
I see Hamas have just announced that another of their leaders have been killed. Does it make sense for them to do this?
 
Old_Laytonian said:
I see Alan Partridge I mean Richard Madeley has been at it again 😲

www.dailymail.co.uk

Richard Madeley asks Palestinian MP if she knew about Hamas' attack

Layla Moran, whose family are trapped in Gaza, was visibly taken aback by Madeley's question and GMB viewers are now calling for the the presenter to be 'pulled off air'.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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I'm surprised at how well she took the line of questioning, just because she has relatives there I doubt the word on the street 10 days ago was Hamas detailed plans for their horrendous acts in Israel.
It would be like asking Roy Walker, Eamon Holmes or Norman Whiteside if their relatives had inside info on terrorist activities, the man is an idiot!
 
gjr said:
I'm surprised at how well she took the line of questioning, just because she has relatives there I doubt the word on the street 10 days ago was Hamas detailed plans for their horrendous acts in Israel.
It would be like asking Roy Walker, Eamon Holmes or Norman Whiteside if their relatives had inside info on terrorist activities, the man is an idiot!
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Yes, I don't think he's on a short-list to front the Today programme or Newsnight.
 
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Matesrates said:
The vultures are circling, Putin in China, Iran threatening to use Hezbollah , North Korea aligning themselves with Russia and China, American warships and troops there or on the way. The grown ups need to take control or this could get very serious.
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Is 1,500 dead Israelis not very serious already?
 
UN school in GAZA hit by Israelis. 6 killed. UN staff injured.

Obviously the third cousin of a Hamas fighters milkman was in year 2 at the school, so a legitimate target.

Oh, and the Scottish Israeli Lt Colonel Hecht tells us there is no humanitarian crisis.

I'm reassured by that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Ollygon said:
AP; Reuters; BBC; Sky; CNN

I'm afraid GB TV is as usual behind the rest, so I can understand your confusion
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Those are news outlets, not sources.

Also, taking the huge leap of faith that the sources are correct, is that 2,800 dead Hamas fighters, or 2,800 dead civilians?
 
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