Matesrates
Well-known member
Canāt have too many of them mateI was waiting for the conspiracy theories
War again
- Thread starter Matesrates
- Start date
JJpool
Well-known member
It's hardly surprising we get them when wars usually always have ulterior motives to what's presented to the masses.I was waiting for the conspiracy theories
Matesrates
Well-known member
Hamas issued a warning to residents of Ashkelon in Israel to leave by 3pm our time today. Bombing has started
Seasider3610
Well-known member
I honestly donāt know but we will see in the next few days and weeks what will happen with this situation in Gaza. Itās being razed to the ground at moment.
You can believe the article in the Telegraph if you want to.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Important info on Russian involvement:
Matesrates
Well-known member
Putin must be laughing his socks off, attention and money turned away from Ukraine. Although Iāve never heard of anyone losing their socks laughing.
April13th1970
Well-known member
Probably because Gaza is controlled by the Hamas terrorists who are sworn to annihilate the nation of Israel and the Jewish race Whereas the west bank is controlled by Fatah (formerly PLO) who have renounced terrorism and are seeking to find a peaceful solution
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
They had played a blinder, right up to the point where they proved direct Russian involvement in the attack.
20togo
Well-known member
The settlements are completely wrong of course perpetrated by extremist Israelis who have no respect for other citizens. And that's putting it mildly. Pretty much the world knows that but that is only a small part of the bigger picture that is the situation in the middle east.
Don't get you Jaffa? Why would anyone not condemn Hitler?
Nethanyahu is cut from the same cloth . . . like Putin too . . . but our government seem to be quite happy to accept his behaviour.
Matesrates
Well-known member
Not seen that, where was that proved?
20togo
Well-known member
why the fuck focus on making this a UK political issue. What is happening and has happened over in Israel and Gaza is horrific but all you can focus on is point scoring against this government. Pathetic.
April13th1970
Well-known member
Personally I'd have said it's Ismail Haniyeh who's caught from the same cloth as Hitler rather than Netanyahu.
Haniyeh and his Hamas terrorists have pledged to destroy Israel and drive the Jewish race into the sea, which sounds a lot to me like Hitler's final solution
Netanyahu, his Likud party and the state of Israel have always sought to defend themselves from this terrorist aggression, and, whilst no one would dispute their response has been a little heavy-handed at times, they have predominantly sought to strike back against known legitimate hamas targets, unlike the civilian non-combatant s that Hamas rockets are indiscriminately launched towards.
Whilst , unfortunately, there have been Palestinian civilian casualties, many of these are collateral damage as a result of the cowardly hamasd leadership hiding amongst their civilian population and thereby using them as human shields. As such, it seems to me that blame for the deaths of many of these Palestinian civilians can be laid squarely at the door of the cowardly Hamas terrorists
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Video above.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
Took the words out of my mouth there 20ās.
The entire world is supporting Israel here (obviously not the Arab countries) and someone keeps harping on about our Government.
Matesrates
Well-known member
Atrocities being shown on TV are terrible, first by Hamas, just murdering men, women and children and now by Israel bombing Gaza, seemingly indiscriminately. Hamas obviously knew what would happen after their attack, they knew the consequences for innocent civilians in Gaza. In my book, they shoulder the blame. Israel of course will now face international outrage as their increasing attacks kill more innocent people, but why did Hamas do this.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
To provoke the sort of response from the Israeli government in Gaza that weāre beginning to see.
A little heavy handed!! Two words too many there. The first two.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
So you are happy sitting by why the government don't condemn such an individual - shameful.
Show me how itās certain Mohammad existed.
You canāt.
Itās propaganda/control of the little people and always has been.
Seriously how can you believe this rubbish.
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
Because I understand that behind every good lie, lies a kernel of truth.
I think it's certain that Mohammed and Jesus were real historical characters, the only question is who they were and what were their true significance.
David Koresh certainly existed, 2,000 from now it's quite possible that churches will be established in his name, so is he a prophet from god, or just a cult leader.
Richard Dawkins is the only true prophet, I will fight to the death to spread the truth.
glasshalffull
Well-known member
?. Sorry Lost, but if I am looking at the right David Koresh he sounds like a real headcase ? The Branch Davidians! Seriously
. Agree upto a point with Richard Dawkins.
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20togo
Well-known member
You haven't made one single comment on the situation that is happening in the middle east instead preferring to point score. Absolute shame on you, you warped individual. Pretty much everyone else on this thread discusses the problems of the middle east and whether they are choosing sides or not they are still condemnung what is happening. Apart from opportunistic you.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
Just been watching Sky news reports say Hamas have been cutting the throats of babies some even were beheaded.
Now remind me again why you want our Government to Condem the Israelis because Iām at a complete loss here.
basilrobbie3
Well-known member
This.
Our historical role in this sorry saga does not make good reading at all.
This s not a binary issue. Our natural sympathy for the Jewish race as a result of what happened to them in Europe in the 30's and 40's doesn't given them a blank cheque. They've behaved abominably towards Palestinians for a very long time now, and it all stems from the balls up that the major colonial powers made of managing the break up of the Ottoman Empire which Ollygon referred to. Britain being one of the worst culprits.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
So itās ok then to cross over into Israel murder 1,000 people half being civilians and hundreds being women an children because the Israeliās have behaved abominably and they donāt have a blank cheque.
Unbelievable comments Bazbob thatās as callus a reply as Iāve heard in a very long time.
Johnno
Well-known member
If true, thatās abhorrent, but Iāll reserve judgement until someone other than an Israeli General says so.Just been watching Sky news reports say Hamas have been cutting the throats of babies some even were beheaded.
Now remind me again why you want our Government to Condem the Israelis because Iām at a complete loss here.
Johnno
Well-known member
You seem to call anyone out for mentioning anything to do with the background history of this conflict? Sorry, but you come across as someone who knows nothing about it. Or are choosing to ignore it?
Lost Seasider
Well-known member
You're looking at something that happened in your lifetime, put 500 - 1,000 years distance in time between you and him and the loss of information from that, and someone who was a complete nutter today might well be viewed as the messiah in the 31st century.?. Sorry Lost, but if I am looking at the right David Koresh he sounds like a real headcase ? The Branch Davidians! Seriously
Agree upto a point with Richard Dawkins.
Admittedly modern recording techniques probably change that calculation, but if Jesus/Mohammed were alive today, would anyone take them seriously?
glasshalffull
Well-known member
Probably not!
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
Oh come on itās not about background history here we all know the issues surrounding Israel and Palestine but what happened Saturday morning was just inexcusable.
Murdering scum came out of Gaza with one thing on they're minds and that was to kill as many Jews (mostly civilians) as possible and over 1,000 were murdered in cold blood just for being Jewish.
They didnāt discriminate wether they were the elderly, women, children, even babies who were the easy targets.
Iām sick to death about hearing how Isreal has brought this on itself for its mistreatment of Palestinians.
How can anyone justify a massacre? How can anyone justify babies having theyāre throats cut some even beheaded? The lucky ones were dragged away by scum so called men probably never to be seen again but why involve children?
Hamas need wiping off the face of the earth for what happened on Saturday like I said itās totally inexcusable what they did.
And yes I feel really sorry for the Palestinian civilians in Gaza caught up in this war but what did they think Israel was going to do following the aftermath hold peace talks for a solution?
Things were going in the right direction in the Middle East Saudi Arabia were even considering recognising Israel as a Jewish state but thatās all gone now.
Conflict has been going on in this region for over 2,000 years and what happened on Saturday morning has probably put it back another 2,000 years so well done Hamas and its followers they clearly want to continue with this war and theyāve got it now lock stock and barrel.
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Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
And I think this is precisely the sort of response Hamas wanted. And which is why the atrocities were deliberately so horrific and disgusting. Because they knew how the Netanyahu government would respond.
Once pictures of dead and mutilated Palestinian children in Gaza start appearing on our TV screens then I think youāll find support for Israel will slip away. A dead baby is a dead baby after all, and dismissing it as ācollateral damageā (as another poster has already done) wonāt provide much cover.
Three further thoughts.
Hamas has had a long time to prepare for this. They are very experienced at engaging with the Israeli army, and know their tactics, and are apparently well stocked will anti tank weaponry. I think they want the Israeli army engaged in bloody house to house fighting inside Gaza where itāll be impossible to avoid civilian casualties. In that sort of combat, advanced military technology is often negated and the battlefield is more equal.
Even for the areas not caught up in the actual fighting, how long can the civilians last without fresh water, food etc? And how long before lack of electricity means the sanitation system collapses? Starvation and disease will follow quickly with the collapse of the medical system following. Pressure will grow on Israel and Egypt to open the southern border. If that happens itāll open Israel up to accusations of ethnic cleansing by bomb and tank.
Finally thereās the very real danger of escalation. The West Bank is relatively quiet but there are reports of the Israeli government providing firepower to settler civilian defence groups. Given the recent provocations by settlers directed at Palestinians can the government be sure the weapons will only be used for defence? And how long will other Middle Eastern countries sit back? Iām pretty sure their populations will be far more sympathetic to the Palestinians than the Israelis. And no ruler, no matter how powerful, can ignore the feelings of their citizens forever without provoking unrest at home.
One thing I think we can agree on. Suddenly in the last few days the world has become a more dangerous place.
Phil_bfc deux
Well-known member
Hamas need wiping out its that simple
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
I donāt disagree.
But are you saying no matter what the cost in terms of civilian deaths?
Phil_bfc deux
Well-known member
They rule the Gaza Strip and have turned it onto a terrorist enclave
Even Egypt still blockade the Gaza Strip, it's a slum and should be flattened
Hamas have caused this and i have zero sympathy for them or the people who live under their rule and support them
Oh and btw this has nothing to do with the West Bank where they have more moderate leaders with open borders and aid from the West
The whole thing is a mess and until Hamas are wiped out there will never be peace
I would also go after the cowardly Hamas leaders who live in Turkey and Qatar
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
Well weāll have to agree to disagree then. For me a decapitated child is horrific whether the child is Israeli or Palestinian. And whether the mutilation is caused by a knife or a bomb. If there was a magic wand that somehow enabled us to rid the world of Hamas without innocent people being killed then Iād be very happy for it to be waved. Short of that thoughā¦
But my main point really is that the response weāre seeing is precisely what Hamas wanted. They are playing the tune at the moment and Israel are dancing to it. And the price is being paid by others.
20togo
Well-known member
We can't change history and the focus has to be on what is happening NOW. No-one on here was commenting on the history before last weekend but now it seems it's convenient for some of you to do so.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
People probably werenāt commenting on the history of Israel last week because there wasnāt a thread on it last week! If there had been I expect the history would have been mentioned.
That said, I agree governments have to deal with the world as it is in the NOW, rather than how theyād like it to be. And that should be the focus. Thatās not to say that it isnāt important to remember how we got here though.
Phil_bfc deux
Well-known member
So what's the answer?
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
You seriously think Hamas wanted the world to see mutilation of babies and children?
What on Gods earth are they hoping to achieve by it all other than the total destruction of Gaza and the Palestinian civilians not to mention world reaction.
Itās pretty obvious they donāt care a toss about them Iām alright fu*k you Jack much like the other Islamic terrorist groups ISIS Hezbollah etc who cause nothing but death and destruction.
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basilrobbie3
Well-known member
It gets commented on because some posters give the impression that they are ignorant of it.
Like you, for example, criticising other people for insisting there is a UK dimension to the problem. Given we played a large part in causing it, there probably is.
And if that isn't topical enough for you, it is thought 17 of our citizens have been killed in the current wave of violence.
Jaffa_The_Hut
Well-known member
Seriously how the hell can you even think for one minute āweā are responsible for a mass slaughter?
We all know the history Bazbob but FFS come on.
20togo
Well-known member
mmmm...miss the point. As you say yourself, Why do you choose to say UK rather than government dimension to the problem. And is there worldwide criticism of Netanyahu by world wide leaders or is Leither as I said just deliberately trying to point score.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
I dunno. Not even sure there is one.
A starting point though would be for Palestinians and all Arab states accepting Israelās right to exist (many of them do of course).
Israel should also accept that Palestinians have legitimate grievances and claims, particularly to land (think about the Israeli settlement policy) rather than just saying āour ancestors lived here two thousand years ago; itās oursā. Or (as a minister did in the last few days) referring to Palestinians as āhuman animalsā.
Then moderates would have to negotiate with goodwill building trust as they went along. Itās happened before. Itās just that the process has often been hijacked by extremists. Remember Rabin was murdered by a fanatical Israeli for signing the Oslo accords. And Palestinians obviously arenāt short of fanatics either as weāre seeing at the moment.
But clearly weāre a long way from that and the main problem is that at the moment there are too many ābad actorsā. Hamas; Netanyahu and his RW coalition government (who have fucked up spectacularly by the way and are now over compensating); Iran; Syria (and behind them Russia); Hezbollah in Lebanon. Thereās a long list.
basilrobbie3
Well-known member
There is over a century of resentment in play here. All caused by the fact that the Palestinians were given assurances about their homeland in the political aftermath of WW1, and watched as others got what they wanted, while they didn't. Even worse, the most fertile and valuable land that they regarded as "theirs" was handed over to the Jews.
What followed was a trickle of Jewish migration that turned into a flood once Hitler first gained power and then occupied much of Western Europe. Which in turn lead to the formal creation of the state of Israel, when the West's collective guilt about the Holocaust meant that they weren't really thinking about how the wider region would receive this.
The Palestinians regarded that as a prolonged betrayal, and still do. They haven't forgotten who they think caused their current plight, even if you dismiss it as unimportant.
Mexboroseasider
Well-known member
The point I was trying to make is that I think Hamas WANT the Israeli army to go into Gaza. The more horrific the atrocities in Israel the more likely that is as the government has to react or appear weak.
Why would Hamas want that? Because itās their terrain and itās no doubt been well prepared with underground combat tunnels etc. Their anti tank mines and Kornet anti tank missiles make Israeli armour pretty redundant which means close combat, house to house fighting. Civilian drones level the playing field re intelligence, troop movements etc.
Obviously the logistics of supply means Hamas can never win strategically as eventually theyād run out of ammunition. But a stalemate, massive losses and humiliation of the Israeli army would be seen by many in the Middle East as a victory.
The alternative for the Israelis is just to sit back and bomb and shell the territory and effectively lay siege to it. Thatād lead to a massive humanitarian crisis and condemnation of Israel certainly in the Middle East and probably in much of the west too.
So I agree with you. Hamas donāt give a toss about the population of Gaza. Their sole goal is to lure the Israeli army into the territory and fight it on their terms. Even if they eventually win militarily, Israel loses politically. Itās a trap essentially.
Very true Robbie.
The big difference being that the Israelies have tremendous support in the USA.
That will tell eventually.