War again

Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Iran have been the stumbling block for decades they are the ones who fund the terrorist organisations and train its fighters.

It’s because of countries like Iran than extreme right wing parties are formed in Israel.

There will never be peace in that region because of Iran any wonder why they were never involved in those peace talks I mentioned last night?

And as for Rabin I know very well what happened to him and I was most certainly not conveniently forgetting to mention it as you say but one extreme right wing Jew shouldn’t and wouldn’t have killed the peace process as his predecessor Peres agreed to every one of the peace agreements previously made by both sides but suicide bomb after suicide bomb carried out by Hamas ripped the agreement up in tatters.

I’m shocked why people today still seem to think peace should be an easy solution when you have been trying for over 50 years but broken every time by islamist terrorists bombing innocent Civilians who are the easy targets.
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This is a brilliant podcast, the expert doesn't exacyly paint your picture though. Well worth a watch.
 
20togo said:
no they don't have a blank cheque. But just to reverse your point.It was the Israeli govt,you often keep saying Netanyahu, it wasn't Israelis. as a collective. Israel is run by an extremist rght govt much as in the same way Gaza is run by a terrorist govt called Hamas. Many Israelis don't want this war much as in the same way many Palestinians don't want the war, even though recent polls show that the majority of Gazans are in favour of armed conflict. And as Mates points out Hamas are hiding in and behind the Gazan people so that sadly and unfortunately means that innocent people would lose their lives. But what did both you and Hamas seriously expect would happen? As i said very early in this thread of course there was going to be a re-action and that it would be heavy handed. You come across as if this is all now Israels fault but as has been said without events of 7/10 then many thousands of Gazan people would still be alive. The reason they are not is solely down to Hamas and their cowardly attacks on 7/10. And is that not the most key and relevant fact that seemingly so many of you want to now overlook.
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Over a third of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll?
 
Sven said:
Over a third of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll?
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stupid statement. Over 29% of the UK are children? Do they have a vote at general elections or are you suggesting Gaza are unique when it comes t stuff like this?
 
What you've also got to look at is that Hamas doing what they did on 7/10 knew that the Israelis would respond strongly. Hamas leaders were quite willing for that to happen.

I was out in Manchester on Saturday night with a couple of friends, and we were eating discussing what is happening. A bloke next to us who was with his wife butted in - both his children are in the IDF and he is a British Jew. He spoke very well about the problems there and what he has seen and experienced over the years. He said that the vast majority of Jews and Palestinians want peace, but Hamas are stopping that.

He reckoned after all this has ended, it'll take three generations to stop it all fully. I wasn't as optimistic.
 
Matesrates said:
Even if Israel achieves its objective of destroying Hamas, they’ve probably created thousands more, many of them kids who will grow up having experienced Israel killing their brothers, sisters, parents etc, as well as destroying their homes.
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That’s exactly the problem.

The Hamas fighters we are seeing today we’re brought up in the period I mentioned earlier.

Those children today in Gaza are going to be doing exactly the same in 10-15 years time and their own children in 30-40 years time the same again and so it goes on and on with no ending.
 
20togo said:
stupid statement. Over 29% of the UK are children? Do they have a vote at general elections or are you suggesting Gaza are unique when it comes t stuff like this?
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You're been repeatedly using the poll to justify collective the punishment of Gazans.

Over 40% of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll? Yes or No.

If the answer is no, will you stop using the poll to justify the collective punishment of Gazans? Or do you still think it's justifiable for those children to be killed?
 
Sven said:
You're been repeatedly using the poll to justify collective the punishment of Gazans.

Over 40% of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll? Yes or No.

If the answer is no, will you stop using the poll to justify the collective punishment of Gazans? Or do you still think it's justifiable for those children to be killed?
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TBH it is hardly a justification of the IDF action. It is actually a rather ridiculous justification of a collective punishment. Even if a majority are in favour of armed action, does anyone deserve to die because of an opinion rather than an action? Opinion polls are notoriously unreliable and are not the same as (for instance) elections. In the last election held in Gaza, Hamas got less than 50% of the vote and since then Hamas have not allowed any further elections. Many Gazans could be thought of as being victims of both Hamas and the IDF.

Can you imagine the uproar if, for instance, the UK started a war based on the results of an opinion poll?
 
Sven said:
You're been repeatedly using the poll to justify collective the punishment of Gazans.

Over 40% of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll? Yes or No.

If the answer is no, will you stop using the poll to justify the collective punishment of Gazans? Or do you still think it's justifiable for those children to be killed?
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the point you make is exactly the same. Are the children in this country included in the results of a general election? Of course not" But hey, if you want to play the Yes or No game, let's do it.

If Hamas hadn't incursioned into Israeli territory and raped and massacred over a thousand of Innocent civilians,men, women and children then would all those children killed in Gaza still be alive along with the many other men and women killed. Yes or No?
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
TBH it is hardly a justification of the IDF action. It is actually a rather ridiculous justification of a collective punishment. Even if a majority are in favour of armed action, does anyone deserve to die because of an opinion rather than an action? Opinion polls are notoriously unreliable and are not the same as (for instance) elections. In the last election held in Gaza, Hamas got less than 50% of the vote and since then Hamas have not allowed any further elections. Many Gazans could be thought of as being victims of both Hamas and the IDF.

Can you imagine the uproar if, for instance, the UK started a war based on the results of an opinion poll?
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So what sort of punishment was the actions of Hamas to all those innocent Israeli citizens murdered on 7/10? No-one deserves to die but all this was brought about by the Hamas> Some of you conveniently want to forget that because your criticism is heavily loaded one way.
 
Sven said:
You're been repeatedly using the poll to justify collective the punishment of Gazans.

Over 40% of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll? Yes or No.

If the answer is no, will you stop using the poll to justify the collective punishment of Gazans? Or do you still think it's justifiable for those children to be killed?
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In fact I'm gonna go even further. Your only reaction immediately after the events of 7/10 was to make a post saying "Free Palestine". What a truly obnoxious post in view of events that happened just 48 hours earlier and long before Israel had moved into Gaza. It pretty much implied your support for Hamas that day otherwise why make the post. No sympathy shown from you then of events that happened that fateful day. Disgusting.
 
20togo said:
the point you make is exactly the same. Are the children in this country included in the results of a general election? Of course not" But hey, if you want to play the Yes or No game, let's do it.

If Hamas hadn't incursioned into Israeli territory and raped and massacred over a thousand of Innocent civilians,men, women and children then would all those children killed in Gaza still be alive along with the many other men and women killed. Yes or No?
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The answer is no. However, once again you are justifying the collective punishment of innocent people on the actions of the few.

Can't you see that is wrong?
 
20togo said:
In fact I'm gonna go even further. Your only reaction immediately after the events of 7/10 was to make a post saying "Free Palestine". What a truly obnoxious post in view of events that happened just 48 hours earlier and long before Israel had moved into Gaza. It pretty much implied your support for Hamas that day otherwise why make the post. No sympathy shown from you then of events that happened that fateful day. Disgusting.
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It did not imply my support for Hamas at all.

Perhaps the timing was poor, but it was in response to the anti-Arab comments of which there were plenty.

I still support a Free Palestine and that shouldn't be a phrase that should offend.

Go as far as you like and call me what you want, it's you who is defending the killing of innocents, not me.

Implying that someone you don't know supports terrorism is a bit odd.
 
Sven said:
It did not imply my support for Hamas at all.

Perhaps the timing was poor, but it was in response to the anti-Arab comments of which there were plenty.

I still support a Free Palestine and that shouldn't be a phrase that should offend.

Go as far as you like and call me what you want, it's you who is defending the killing of innocents, not me.

Implying that someone you don't know supports terrorism is a bit odd.
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don't try and use a get out clause. You never would have made that post if it hadn't been for the events of 7/10. So no it wasn't timing was poor it was a grossly offensive comment at that time that you deliberately made when over a thousand innocent Israelis had just been massacred. Were you defending the killing of innocents back then? No you weren't. You were making offensive posts based on events that had just happened.
 
20togo said:
don't try and use a get out clause. You never would have made that post if it hadn't been for the events of 7/10. So no it wasn't timing was poor it was a grossly offensive comment at that time that you deliberately made when over a thousand innocent Israelis had just been massacred. Were you defending the killing of innocents back then? No you weren't. You were making offensive posts based on events that had just happened.
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That's simply not true at all.

I made that comment based on the anti-Arab/Palestinian comments I saw at the time which were plentiful, "flatten Gaza" etc. That was the basis of my comments and the freedom and right to self-determination of the Palestinian people is something I believe in.

You can spin it into whatever you want but that is the truth. I have no reason to lie. I don't support Hamas and I differentiate between the terrorists and Palestinian civilians. I have been consistent with this throughout the thread.
 
Sven said:
That's simply not true at all.

I made that comment based on the anti-Arab/Palestinian comments I saw at the time which were plentiful, "flatten Gaza" etc. That was the basis of my comments and the freedom and right to self-determination of the Palestinian people is something I believe in.

You can spin it into whatever you want but that is the truth. I have no reason to lie. I don't support Hamas and I differentiate between the terrorists and Palestinian civilians. I have been consistent with this throughout the thread.
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yep, you're right you've been consistent throughout the thread. Not once between 7/10 and 27/10 when Israel moved into Gaza did you condemn Hamas for their actions. You know, those actions which massacred over a thousand innocent men, women and children and those hostages who are still in captivity have now been threatened to be killed. But as soon as Israeli troops moved in you are now full of words of condemnation.

You had opportunity to condemn the attacks on 7/10. You chose not to! It's as simple as that.
 
20togo said:
no they don't have a blank cheque. But just to reverse your point.It was the Israeli govt,you often keep saying Netanyahu, it wasn't Israelis. as a collective. Israel is run by an extremist rght govt much as in the same way Gaza is run by a terrorist govt called Hamas. Many Israelis don't want this war much as in the same way many Palestinians don't want the war, even though recent polls show that the majority of Gazans are in favour of armed conflict. And as Mates points out Hamas are hiding in and behind the Gazan people so that sadly and unfortunately means that innocent people would lose their lives. But what did both you and Hamas seriously expect would happen? As i said very early in this thread of course there was going to be a re-action and that it would be heavy handed. You come across as if this is all now Israels fault but as has been said without events of 7/10 then many thousands of Gazan people would still be alive. The reason they are not is solely down to Hamas and their cowardly attacks on 7/10. And is that not the most key and relevant fact that seemingly so many of you want to now overlook.
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Well you say they don’t have a blank cheque but when I’ve asked you how many Palestinian deaths you’d accept, you’ve refused to answer. That sounds like a blank cheque to me. Instead you’ve repeatedly said Hamas are solely responsible for all the deaths in Gaza and that’s one area where we differ.

I hold Hamas responsible for the deaths on 7/10. And I hold the IDF responsible for the deaths in Gaza. After all it’s IDF fingers pressing the buttons and pulling the triggers that have caused those deaths, following the orders of what you’ve accepted is an extremist Israeli government.

You’ve asked again “what did Hamas expect would happen”. I’ve answered that loads of times but will answer it again. IMO they expected precisely the disproportionate overreaction that we’re seeing currently. And their objective was to achieve international condemnation of Israel which is exactly what is happening, so that in the end any sympathy for Israel that previously existed in the west would have evaporated. That was their plan and the Israeli government is playing its part admirably.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well you say they don’t have a blank cheque but when I’ve asked you how many Palestinian deaths you’d accept, you’ve refused to answer. That sounds like a blank cheque to me. Instead you’ve repeatedly said Hamas are solely responsible for all the deaths in Gaza and that’s one area where we differ.

I hold Hamas responsible for the deaths on 7/10. And I hold the IDF responsible for the deaths in Gaza. After all it’s IDF fingers pressing the buttons and pulling the triggers that have caused those deaths, following the orders of what you’ve accepted is an extremist Israeli government.

You’ve asked again “what did Hamas expect would happen”. I’ve answered that loads of times but will answer it again. IMO they expected precisely the disproportionate overreaction that we’re seeing currently. And their objective was to achieve international condemnation of Israel which is exactly what is happening, so that in the end any sympathy for Israel that previously existed in the west would have evaporated. That was their plan and the Israeli government is playing its part admirably.
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Why do you keep using the word overreaction?

Most other countries would have reacted in the same way as Israel after seeing 1,400 innocent civilians massacred.

I’m sure had it been your family butchered on 07/10 you would have been hell bent on revenge.

It’s not going to stop till those murdering terrorist thugs are finally rid of and rightly so.

The world will be a much better place without them trust me. 👍
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Well you say they don’t have a blank cheque but when I’ve asked you how many Palestinian deaths you’d accept, you’ve refused to answer. That sounds like a blank cheque to me. Instead you’ve repeatedly said Hamas are solely responsible for all the deaths in Gaza and that’s one area where we differ.

I hold Hamas responsible for the deaths on 7/10. And I hold the IDF responsible for the deaths in Gaza. After all it’s IDF fingers pressing the buttons and pulling the triggers that have caused those deaths, following the orders of what you’ve accepted is an extremist Israeli government.

You’ve asked again “what did Hamas expect would happen”. I’ve answered that loads of times but will answer it again. IMO they expected precisely the disproportionate overreaction that we’re seeing currently. And their objective was to achieve international condemnation of Israel which is exactly what is happening, so that in the end any sympathy for Israel that previously existed in the west would have evaporated. That was their plan and the Israeli government is playing its part admirably.
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no deaths are acceptable but as I've said war is brutal, Israel was always gonna respond in a heavy handed manner and so it was inevitable people would be killed and that deaths would happen. What i find offensive is that you want to solely blame ALL the deaths in Gaza on Israel rather than acknowledging Hamas played any part. You seem to suggest it's Israels fault for killing people that Hamas were hiding behind. Innocent people who Hamas were putting in harms way. You first raised on here "the blame game". I'm glad you did. If the events of 7/10 hadn't have happened then thousands of Palestinians including Hamas soldiers would still be alive. And you want to blame Israel. That's pretty warped thinking in my book. For gods sake, how did you think Israel would re-act? We're you expecting them to sit round a table with Hamas the next day and talk it over? Yet all Gazans death are the fault of Israel? Madness.
 
20togo said:
yep, you're right you've been consistent throughout the thread. Not once between 7/10 and 27/10 when Israel moved into Gaza did you condemn Hamas for their actions. You know, those actions which massacred over a thousand innocent men, women and children and those hostages who are still in captivity have now been threatened to be killed. But as soon as Israeli troops moved in you are now full of words of condemnation.

You had opportunity to condemn the attacks on 7/10. You chose not to! It's as simple as that.
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Do you honestly have to condemn terrorist attacks? I have never condemned 9/11 or 7/7 either, I wasn't aware that I needed to. Does that mean I support Al-Qaeda too? I have never once given any indication that I support the actions of Hamas, you are making things up.

What an absurd way to try and prove a point.
 
20togo said:
see my previous post. Please don't dare to lecture me regarding collective punishment after events of 7/10 which it seems you didn't have a problem with.
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Sven said:
You're been repeatedly using the poll to justify collective the punishment of Gazans.

Over 40% of Gazans are under 14, are they included in the poll? Yes or No.

If the answer is no, will you stop using the poll to justify the collective punishment of Gazans? Or do you still think it's justifiable for those children to be killed?
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Are you going to answer the questions or continue trying to deflect by attacking me personally?
 
Sven said:
Do you honestly have to condemn terrorist attacks? I have never condemned 9/11 or 7/7 either, I wasn't aware that I needed to. Does that mean I support Al-Qaeda too? I have never once given any indication that I support the actions of Hamas, you are making things up.

What an absurd way to try and prove a point.
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simply highlighting that rather than making any comment on the events of 7/10, you simply chose just to say "free Palestine". That is of course until Israel entered Gaza and then you now want to express your criticism of Israel. Double standards, hypocricy, anti semitism? Which? Your timing was poor, I'd say it was crass in view of events just 48 hours earlier.
 
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Sven said:
Are you going to answer the questions or continue trying to deflect by attacking me personally?
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what did you want Israel do? Take it on the chin? War is brutal and sadly innocent people get killed. And yep, Hamas started it and without the events of 7/10 then many more people would still be alive. I'm not deflecting either. It's a ridiculous question because children throughout the world aren't involved in decision making. As I've already pointed out to you.
 
20togo said:
what did you want Israel do? Take it on the chin? War is brutal and sadly innocent people get killed. And yep, Hamas started it and without the events of 7/10 then many more people would still be alive. I'm not deflecting either. It's a ridiculous question because children throughout the world aren't involved in decision making. As I've already pointed out to you.
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It's not about decision making, it's about you using a poll to suggest that collective punishment is fine in Gaza because most of them support an armed struggle when 40% of Gazans are kids and won't be polled. Will you still use that poll to support the collective punishment of the people of Gaza?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
Why do you keep using the word overreaction?

Most other countries would have reacted in the same way as Israel after seeing 1,400 innocent civilians massacred.

I’m sure had it been your family butchered on 07/10 you would have been hell bent on revenge.

It’s not going to stop till those murdering terrorist thugs are finally rid of and rightly so.

The world will be a much better place without them trust me. 👍
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Well I don’t have to trust you. I know the world would be a much better place without Hamas.

But that doesn’t change my view that the Israeli response is an overreaction.

Dropping bombs in the knowledge you will almost certainly kill innocent children who had nothing to do with the 7/10 atrocities, but in the hope you may kill a terrorist, is not an acceptable response IMO. I also don’t think it’s in line with international law.
 
20togo said:
no deaths are acceptable but as I've said war is brutal, Israel was always gonna respond in a heavy handed manner and so it was inevitable people would be killed and that deaths would happen. What i find offensive is that you want to solely blame ALL the deaths in Gaza on Israel rather than acknowledging Hamas played any part. You seem to suggest it's Israels fault for killing people that Hamas were hiding behind. Innocent people who Hamas were putting in harms way. You first raised on here "the blame game". I'm glad you did. If the events of 7/10 hadn't have happened then thousands of Palestinians including Hamas soldiers would still be alive. And you want to blame Israel. That's pretty warped thinking in my book. For gods sake, how did you think Israel would re-act? Were you expecting them to sit round a table with Hamas the next day and talk it over? Yet all Gazans death are the fault of Israel? Madness.
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You’re being a bit hypocritical there 20s I’m afraid.

I’m prepared to condemn both Hamas and Israel for their parts in the current conflict, whereas you have repeatedly said Hamas are solely responsible. And yet it’s the IDF who are the ones firing and dropping the ordinance in residential areas in Gaza. And killing innocent people who had nothing to do with the 7/10 murders. To be honest it’s very similar to your attempt to absolve the Tommy Robinson thugs when they attacked the police defending the cenotaph on Armistice weekend, by saying they wouldn’t have been there if it weren’t for the peace march. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions? Instead of adopting a tortured logic to make excuses for them and defend a position that’s indefensible.

You’ve also repeatedly said that Israel don’t have a blank cheque in how they respond but that’s precisely what you’re giving them when you try to absolve them of any blame for the deaths in Gaza, and put it all on the other side. There doesn’t have to be a limit on the Palestinian deaths using that argument. As it’s all the fault of Hamas.
 
April13th1970 said:
Hardly an overreaction

https://twitter.com/x/status/1732779663313801339
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I’m afraid Colonel Kemp has a bit of a track record with stuff like this. In fact a newspaper that printed a defamatory article by him about Baroness Warsi sympathising with Al Qaeda ended up paying damages.

Two examples that reveal this for the propaganda that it is.

The RAF never bombed any Catholic/ Republican areas during the Troubles because they knew it’d result in a massive death toll of innocent people. To suggest the IDF is showing restraint is nonsense.

I’m not aware of any civilians being killed either during the Falklands invasion nor when we recovered the Islands. If there were it was a negligible number. So what was the combatant/civilian death ratio in that conflict?

It took me about 30 seconds to think of those two examples to prove he’s talking bollux.
 
20togo said:
simply highlighting that rather than making any comment on the events of 7/10, you simply chose just to say "free Palestine". That is of course until Israel entered Gaza and then you now want to express your criticism of Israel. Double standards, hypocricy, anti semitism? Which? Your timing was poor, I'd say it was crass in view of events just 48 hours earlier.
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I know you like repeating yourself but I've already explained Free Palestine and it's not something I regret as it wasn't intended to be offensive. It's a positive term in support of the Palestinian people who I felt were being attacked on the thread.

I also don't feel the need to comment on a terrorist attack on innocent civilians, it goes without saying that it's terrible. The fact you translate that into me supporting Hamas' terrorism is really strange.

Of course I can criticise the State of Israel for their actions in Gaza, what's wrong with having an opinion on that?

I can tell you're trying to brand me as either anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser but I am neither. I am somebody who wants to see the end of violence and oppression in the region.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
You’re being a bit hypocritical there 20s I’m afraid.

I’m prepared to condemn both Hamas and Israel for their parts in the current conflict, whereas you have repeatedly said Hamas are solely responsible. And yet it’s the IDF who are the ones firing and dropping the ordinance in residential areas in Gaza. And killing innocent people who had nothing to do with the 7/10 murders. To be honest it’s very similar to your attempt to absolve the Tommy Robinson thugs when they attacked the police defending the cenotaph on Armistice weekend, by saying they wouldn’t have been there if it weren’t for the peace march. Whatever happened to people taking responsibility for their own actions? Instead of adopting a tortured logic to make excuses for them and defend a position that’s indefensible.

You’ve also repeatedly said that Israel don’t have a blank cheque in how they respond but that’s precisely what you’re giving them when you try to absolve them of any blame for the deaths in Gaza, and put it all on the other side. There doesn’t have to be a limit on the Palestinian deaths using that argument. As it’s all the fault of Hamas.
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don't confuse me with some-one else. I didn't and haven't absolved the Tommy Robinson thugs for attacking the police. As far as i can recall i said something along the lines that in their own stupid misguided minds they thought they were doing something to protect the Cenotaph. On that point, I don't know how many marches have took place since then but it's hardly been headline news so I assume they all passed off peacefully. Just like i said it would if the planned march had been deferred a week. But you and others with your views were happy to see it go ahead and all the trouble that was caused. An unnecessary occurrence which could so easily have been avoided just as i and a few others said.

And i have to credit you with how you word things.Your idea of condemnation is black and white. Hamas are responsible for this and Israel are responsible for that. No my friend, that's not how it works. Hamas started this war so they take to responsibility for what has followed. Hamas hiding behind civilians, Hamas using hospitals as bases, Hamas continuing to fire rockets into Israel etc. I''ve told you previously that Israel would always have an excuse to hide behind when it comes to their targets and Hamas have given them that excuse because of their cowardly actions by using civilians as cover. Like i said, you used the term blame game and the fact is that this war was started by Hamas and many thousands of people would still be alive today bar for Hamas actions. And in your eyes that is solely down to Israel.. Madness. What else would/could Israel have done?
 
Sven said:
I know you like repeating yourself but I've already explained Free Palestine and it's not something I regret as it wasn't intended to be offensive. It's a positive term in support of the Palestinian people who I felt were being attacked on the thread.

I also don't feel the need to comment on a terrorist attack on innocent civilians, it goes without saying that it's terrible. The fact you translate that into me supporting Hamas' terrorism is really strange.

Of course I can criticise the State of Israel for their actions in Gaza, what's wrong with having an opinion on that?

I can tell you're trying to brand me as either anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser but I am neither. I am somebody who wants to see the end of violence and oppression in the region.
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TBH the mistake some posters have made it to equate any criticism of Israel and the current IDF actions in Gaza with a pro Hamas viewpoint and/or antisemitism.

That’s why the thread keeps going round in circles without making any progress. Which frankly is not dissimilar to the whole Israel/Palestine debate since the late 1940s.
 
Sven said:
I know you like repeating yourself but I've already explained Free Palestine and it's not something I regret as it wasn't intended to be offensive. It's a positive term in support of the Palestinian people who I felt were being attacked on the thread.

I also don't feel the need to comment on a terrorist attack on innocent civilians, it goes without saying that it's terrible. The fact you translate that into me supporting Hamas' terrorism is really strange.

Of course I can criticise the State of Israel for their actions in Gaza, what's wrong with having an opinion on that?

I can tell you're trying to brand me as either anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser but I am neither. I am somebody who wants to see the end of violence and oppression in the region.
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you're right, it goes without you saying it was terrible and you didn't say it. But yes have your say, that's good for debate. But equally so i am allowed to make my observations. And of course, free Palestine is a positive term which hopefully will come about as I've said plenty of times before. And my observation was that you made your comment not in direct response to anybody and barely 48 hours after the tragic events of 7/10. As you said it was poor timing, i'd say it was crass because like it or not, Hamas, Palestine and Israel are inextricably linked. You then pretty much had nothing to say on the matter until you piled in with your criticism of Israel.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
TBH the mistake some posters have made it to equate any criticism of Israel and the current IDF actions in Gaza with a pro Hamas viewpoint and/or antisemitism.

That’s why the thread keeps going round in circles without making any progress. Which frankly is not dissimilar to the whole Israel/Palestine debate since the late 1940s.
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How can the thread progress? As long as the war is going on then there will always be things to say even if much of it is what's already been said. What I'm sure we can all agree on that the sooner this war ends the better! I also think there has been at least one poster with anti semitic comments.
 
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I wonder what Hamas actually expected would happen, what were their objectives. Clearly they expected a response, but dd they think it would be as severe as it’s been? Did they hope hezbollah would get heavily involved , or other sympathetic nations, if so they failed. Maybe they saw it as a recruitment drive, in which case I expect it’s been a massive success.

What I don’t understand, is where they’re getting their missiles, weapons and ammunition from, we know Iran is the major provider, but how are they getting them in , when people can’t get out and aid is hardly getting in.
 
Back to Ukraine, Zelenskys visit to the U. S hasn’t achieved anything, repubIicans won’t agree the £60 billion military package unless they get border funding. As they break for Christmas on Thursday, it looks unlikely, which could be disastrous for Ukraine and a gift for Putin, who will no doubt be celebrating with Beluga caviar and chilled vodka.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
undispatch.com

Here is Where Every Country Now Stands on a Ceasefire in Gaza - UN Dispatch

Moments ago, the United Nations General Assembly voted on a resolution calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire in Israel and Gaza. This vote at the General Assembly comes after the United States cast a lone veto at the Security Council last week, blocking a ceasefire resolution put...
undispatch.com undispatch.com

Israel is losing international support.
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think that was always likely to happen the longer the war carried on. Are they losing their support for the actual war though? It's more likely for the lack of humanitarian aid getting in and i can understand that. But of course Israel has to make sure that aid is getting thru to the right people who need it and not into the arms of the Hamas terrorists. The propaganda war will continue and yes the longer it goes on the support will likely decrease. But is there anywhere for Hamas to go now? They need to lay down their arms so that the healing process can begin.
 
mmmmmm... that must run risks. Anyway, I'm away now til tomorrow afternoon but no doubt we'll resume our exchange of views at a later point.
 
Matesrates said:
I wonder what Hamas actually expected would happen, what were their objectives. Clearly they expected a response, but dd they think it would be as severe as it’s been? Did they hope hezbollah would get heavily involved , or other sympathetic nations, if so they failed. Maybe they saw it as a recruitment drive, in which case I expect it’s been a massive success.

What I don’t understand, is where they’re getting their missiles, weapons and ammunition from, we know Iran is the major provider, but how are they getting them in , when people can’t get out and aid is hardly getting in.
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Matesrates said:
I wonder what Hamas actually expected would happen, what were their objectives. Clearly they expected a response, but dd they think it would be as severe as it’s been? Did they hope hezbollah would get heavily involved , or other sympathetic nations, if so they failed. Maybe they saw it as a recruitment drive, in which case I expect it’s been a massive success.

What I don’t understand, is where they’re getting their missiles, weapons and ammunition from, we know Iran is the major provider, but how are they getting them in , when people can’t get out and aid is hardly getting in.
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Hamas had been planning this massacre on 07/20/23 for 3 years so it’s obvious they’ve been stock piling these weapons in the tunnels in Gaza city.
A cache of weapons were found in that tunnel under that hospital in Gaza city which was on the news a few weeks ago.
 
Matesrates said:
Back to Ukraine, Zelenskys visit to the U. S hasn’t achieved anything, repubIicans won’t agree the £60 billion military package unless they get border funding. As they break for Christmas on Thursday, it looks unlikely, which could be disastrous for Ukraine and a gift for Putin, who will no doubt be celebrating with Beluga caviar and chilled vodka.
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I expect Putin is wondering why he’s getting pelters when he’s only killed between 8-9000 Ukrainians. Whereas Israel can get a free pass to kill at least twice that number in a much shorter space of time.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I expect Putin is wondering why he’s getting pelters when he’s only killed between 8-9000 Ukrainians. Whereas Israel can get a free pass to kill at least twice that number in a much shorter space of time.
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what do you want Israel to do exactly? Invite Hamas to lunch to see if they can iron out their differences? A terrorist organisation who want to wipe Israel of the face of the earth and who started this war with their actions on 7/10. Meanwhile in your eyes it's all Israels fault that innocent civilians are being killed in Gaza even though Hamas are using them as human shields!
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I expect Putin is wondering why he’s getting pelters when he’s only killed between 8-9000 Ukrainians. Whereas Israel can get a free pass to kill at least twice that number in a much shorter space of time.
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So do you have official proof 16,000-18,000 Palestinians have been killed then in this conflict?

Oh and when I say official figures I don’t mean Hamas figures.
 
20togo said:
what do you want Israel to do exactly? Invite Hamas to lunch to see if they can iron out their differences? A terrorist organisation who want to wipe Israel of the face of the earth and who started this war with their actions on 7/10. Meanwhile in your eyes it's all Israels fault that innocent civilians are being killed in Gaza even though Hamas are using them as human shields!
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Israel is already speaking and negotiating with Hamas, using Qatar as a mediator. That’s why some of the hostages have been released.

Sort of proves that dialogue, even between the bitterest enemies, can work.

As Churchill said “Jaw, jaw. Not war war”.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
So do you have official proof 16,000-18,000 Palestinians have been killed then in this conflict?

Oh and when I say official figures I don’t mean Hamas figures.
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Have you seen the pictures of demolished neighbourhoods in Gaza?

Have you seen from the recent resolution from the UN General Assembly that most countries in the world think a ceasefire is desperately needed?

Did you see that even the US have warned Israel that they are losing international support?

So, regardless of the exact numbers of dead, it’s pretty clear that most nations think Israel has gone too far.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
Have you seen the pictures of demolished neighbourhoods in Gaza?

Have you seen from the recent resolution from the UN General Assembly that most countries in the world think a ceasefire is desperately needed?

Did you see that even the US have warned Israel that they are losing international support?

So, regardless of the exact numbers of dead, it’s pretty clear that most nations think Israel has gone too far.
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So in other words your comments were incorrect then.

Cheers that’s all I wanted.👍
 
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