War again

[Junior_BentsPlatformShoes]

The Hamas Leaders ( and probably certain Arab state leaders), who are nowhere near Gaza, were happy for the Palestinian people to be used like pawns in a chess game, knowing what the outcomes would be after the attack, and so were happy for the current situation.

I agree with the Americans though, nothing wrong in saying they need to be more surgical and precise in their fight against Hamas, especially when you see sick and dying children on hospital ward have been bombed.

 

[20togo]

The Hamas Leaders ( and probably certain Arab state leaders), who are nowhere near Gaza, were happy for the Palestinian people to be used like pawns in a chess game, knowing what the outcomes would be after the attack, and so were happy for the current situation.

I agree with the Americans though, nothing wrong in saying they need to be more surgical and precise in their fight against Hamas, especially when you see sick and dying children on hospital ward have been bombed.

yes i can agree with all that. And because of your first para i find it hard to believe that some on here think Hamas have no responsibility for the deaths of so many Palestinians.

 

[basilrobbie3]

Good stuff. Even though what you say may well turn out to be correct, you are pretty much admitting and saying that Hamas set out on this course of events knowing full well that many Palestinians would be killed. And yet you seem to say Hamas aren't responsible in any way shape or form for those deaths.

I'm reluctant to join this trip round a circle with you. However :

1. I'm not "admitting" anything. I'm not complicit, am I? It was perfectly obvious what might happen, and Hamas counted on Israel responding in the manner it did.

2. Nobody is saying Hamas don't bear much of the responsibility. They are despicable, and are using civilians as collateral damage to pursue their political aims.

3. Israel knows all this and still persists in an inhumane and utterly stupid response, which will only serve to make their standing in the region much worse.

4. There are two underlying problems here :

a) a century or more of mutual mistrust, resentment and loathing ; and

b) the fact that the loathing is now at such a pitch that normal, moral considerations about the value of life don't seem to apply - on either side

I think people would be quite happy to join you in condemning Hamas, and plenty of people have. What they don't want to do is give a de facto blank cheque to the gangsters who are currently running Israel. You making the same argument over and over again isn't going to change their minds.

 

[20togo]

I'm reluctant to join this trip round a circle with you. However :

1. I'm not "admitting" anything. I'm not complicit, am I? It was perfectly obvious what might happen, and Hamas counted on Israel responding in the manner it did.

2. Nobody is saying Hamas don't bear much of the responsibility. They are despicable, and are using civilians as collateral damage to pursue their political aims.

3. Israel knows all this and still persists in an inhumane and utterly stupid response, which will only serve to make their standing in the region much worse.

4. There are two underlying problems here :

a) a century or more of mutual mistrust, resentment and loathing ; and

b) the fact that the loathing is now at such a pitch that normal, moral considerations about the value of life don't seem to apply - on either side

I think people would be quite happy to join you in condemning Hamas, and plenty of people have. What they don't want to do is give a de facto blank cheque to the gangsters who are currently running Israel. You making the same argument over and over again isn't going to change their minds.

re point 2 I think you'll find that Mex and EBSN are putting the deaths of the Palestinians as being solely down to Israel. So saying "nobody is saying" is incorrect.

And people making the same arguments to me and others over and over again isn't gonna change my mind either. Because yes, i will make this same point again. If 7/10 hadn't happened then there would be thousands of more people still alive. And that is an undisputable fact, What i also suggest you do is have a read of the thread from the start. There's quite a few who don't quite fall into your thought process of the first sentence of your last para.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Good stuff. Even though what you say may well turn out to be correct, you are pretty much admitting and saying that Hamas set out on this course of events knowing full well that many Palestinians would be killed. And yet you seem to say Hamas aren't responsible in any way shape or form for those deaths. Not sure you thought that through!

If you cast your mind back to what I’ve said from Day 1, when Jaffa asked what Hamas hoped to gain/what did they expect, I’ve replied that they expected exactly the disproportionate response that Israel has provided, their ultimate goal being to destroy the international goodwill that Israel has enjoyed since it was created.

I also made the point that I didn’t think Hamas cared about Palestinian casualties.

In other words, as you’re now saying, I made it clear that Hamas would have some complicity in the death of Palestinians. So your claim that I haven’t said that is untrue. I’ve repeatedly condemned Hamas as is clear from my posts.

By contrast your criticisms of Israel have been half hearted at best and you’ve repeatedly tried to blame their indiscriminate bombing campaign on Hamas. I’ve been even handed in my condemnation of both sides. You and other posters haven’t.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

re point 2 I think you'll find that Mex and EBSN are putting the deaths of the Palestinians as being solely down to Israel. So saying "nobody is saying" is incorrect.

And people making the same arguments to me and others over and over again isn't gonna change my mind either. Because yes, i will make this same point again. If 7/10 hadn't happened then there would be thousands of more people still alive. And that is an undisputable fact, What i also suggest you do is have a read of the thread from the start. There's quite a few who don't quite fall into your thought process of the first sentence of your last para.

Your first paragraph is untrue.

 

[spudgun]

I'm reluctant to join this trip round a circle with you. However :

1. I'm not "admitting" anything. I'm not complicit, am I? It was perfectly obvious what might happen, and Hamas counted on Israel responding in the manner it did.

2. Nobody is saying Hamas don't bear much of the responsibility. They are despicable, and are using civilians as collateral damage to pursue their political aims.

3. Israel knows all this and still persists in an inhumane and utterly stupid response, which will only serve to make their standing in the region much worse.

4. There are two underlying problems here :

a) a century or more of mutual mistrust, resentment and loathing ; and

b) the fact that the loathing is now at such a pitch that normal, moral considerations about the value of life don't seem to apply - on either side

I think people would be quite happy to join you in condemning Hamas, and plenty of people have. What they don't want to do is give a de facto blank cheque to the gangsters who are currently running Israel. You making the same argument over and over again isn't going to change their minds.

Yep, excellent post, agree with all of that.

The reductive nature of "debate" on here by some is truly as depressing as it is repetitive.

There`s a poem by the Israeli poet, Yehudi Amichai that is called "The place where you are right" that begins:

From the place where you are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring

The place where you are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard...

The ground on this thread is pretty well trampled down by one or two who always need to be right...

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I'm reluctant to join this trip round a circle with you. However :

1. I'm not "admitting" anything. I'm not complicit, am I? It was perfectly obvious what might happen, and Hamas counted on Israel responding in the manner it did.

2. Nobody is saying Hamas don't bear much of the responsibility. They are despicable, and are using civilians as collateral damage to pursue their political aims.

3. Israel knows all this and still persists in an inhumane and utterly stupid response, which will only serve to make their standing in the region much worse.

4. There are two underlying problems here :

a) a century or more of mutual mistrust, resentment and loathing ; and

b) the fact that the loathing is now at such a pitch that normal, moral considerations about the value of life don't seem to apply - on either side

I think people would be quite happy to join you in condemning Hamas, and plenty of people have. What they don't want to do is give a de facto blank cheque to the gangsters who are currently running Israel. You making the same argument over and over again isn't going to change their minds.

Nailed it.

 

[20togo]

Your first paragraph is untrue.

I hold Hamas responsible for the deaths on 7/10. And I hold the IDF responsible for the deaths in Gaza. After all it’s IDF fingers pressing the buttons and pulling the triggers

Anyway, unlike you, I blame the actor who did the action of killing.;
Hamas rocket kills civilians, Hamas's fault. Israeli bullet / bomb killing civilian, Israel's fault.

seems you both said that to me.

 

[20togo]

Yep, excellent post, agree with all of that.

The reductive nature of "debate" on here by some is truly as depressing as it is repetitive.

There`s a poem by the Israeli poet, Yehudi Amichai that is called "The place where you are right" that begins:

From the place where you are right
Flowers will never grow
In the spring

The place where you are right
Is hard and trampled
Like a yard...

The ground on this thread is pretty well trampled down by one or two who always need to be right...

no surprise with your usual dig. This is a brutal nasty war that is happening. Nobody on here wanted the war to happen. Nobody wanted anybody to die> It's not about being right or wrong because in this thread there is no right or wrong only debate as to the horrors that are taking place. So absolute shame on you for making it about being right in a war that has taken thousands of lives.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

seems you both said that to me.

Well it seems to me pretty clear that if a person drops a bomb in a residential area, knowing it’s full of civilians, then that person is responsible for the deaths that are caused. It’s astonishing that anyone would think that’s a controversial statement.

The difficulty that you and other posters have on this thread is of your own making, and it arises because of your belief that if people aren’t pro Israel then they must be pro Hamas and/or antisemitic. If that were true then David Cameron, Ben Wallace, and a whole host of senior Tories, to say nothing of all the countries who voted against Israel in last week’s UN General Assembly resolution, would fall into the same camp.

In short, Israel is subject to the same international law and rules of war as every other country on the planet. There’s a very wide consensus across the world that increasingly believes it’s breached those obligations.

And no amount of tortured logic on here will change those facts.

 

[20togo]

Well it seems to me pretty clear that if a person drops a bomb in a residential area, knowing it’s full of civilians, then that person is responsible for the deaths that are caused. It’s astonishing that anyone would think that’s a controversial statement.

The difficulty that you and other posters have on this thread is of your own making, and it arises because of your belief that if people aren’t pro Israel then they must be pro Hamas and/or antisemitic. If that were true then David Cameron, Ben Wallace, and a whole host of senior Tories, to say nothing of all the countries who voted against Israel in last week’s UN General Assembly resolution, would fall into the same camp.

In short, Israel is subject to the same international law and rules of war as every other country on the planet. There’s a very wide consensus across the world that increasingly believes it’s breached those obligations.

And no amount of tortured logic on here will change those facts.

so you did say it then as i said. Thanks. Why say it was untrue then.

And you assume too much. I don't expect you to be pro Israel or to come up with the crap you throw out in your second para. The difficulty that you and other posters have is that you seem to think that none of the deaths of the Gazan people have anything to do with Hamas and are not Hamas fault. Those deaths are solely down to Israel.

And no amount of tortured logic will change the fact that Hamas started this war on 7/10. And yes, Israel is subject to international law and rules but as I've said previously Hamas as you've acknowledged by using tunnels under civilian homes and buildings and using hospitals as bases and for firing rockets into Israel are giving Israel a ready made excuse to hide behind.

And of course we all hope for a ceasefire but do you seriously think Israel or more specifically Netanyahu listens or takes any notice of what Cameron, Wallace or anyone else in this country has to say? Idon't. Much in the same way as for the rest of the UN. Is it not reasonable to think the only people who can stop this war is Israel itself and the USA issuing a stern warning which I've no problem with.

As for the future, then yep let Netanyahu be tried and found guilty if necessary of war crimes but do you seriously expect any sanctions to be taken against Israel? I don't. It will all quickly die down until the next time when some other group will more than likely carry out another atrocity. Sadly that is the world we live in today.

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Just wondering if anyone has answered a point i've mentioned a few times. Why in view of the supposed number of deaths released by the Hamas authority is the figure so disproportionate between men, women and children with the figure for men seemingly significantly low? Is it because a great number of men are Hamas supporters and using the women and children to hide behind and to shelter in the underground tunnels. Yet somehow some on here say the deaths of all these people are Israels fault!

And you have been answered before, 50 % or more of the population are under 18!!

 

[20togo]

And you have been answered before, 50 % or more of the population are under 18!!

yep thanks, hadn't realised.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

so you did say it then as i said. Thanks. Why say it was untrue then.

And you assume too much. I don't expect you to be pro Israel or to come up with the crap you throw out in your second para. The difficulty that you and other posters have is that you seem to think that none of the deaths of the Gazan people have anything to do with Hamas and are not Hamas fault. Those deaths are solely down to Israel.

And no amount of tortured logic will change the fact that Hamas started this war on 7/10. And yes, Israel is subject to international law and rules but as I've said previously Hamas as you've acknowledged by using tunnels under civilian homes and buildings and using hospitals as bases and for firing rockets into Israel are giving Israel a ready made excuse to hide behind.

And of course we all hope for a ceasefire but do you seriously think Israel or more specifically Netanyahu listens or takes any notice of what Cameron, Wallace or anyone else in this country has to say? Idon't. Much in the same way as for the rest of the UN. Is it not reasonable to think the only people who can stop this war is Israel itself and the USA issuing a stern warning which I've no problem with.

As for the future, then yep let Netanyahu be tried and found guilty if necessary of war crimes but do you seriously expect any sanctions to be taken against Israel? I don't. It will all quickly die down until the next time when some other group will more than likely carry out another atrocity. Sadly that is the world we live in today.

It’s untrue to say that me or anyone else is trying to absolve Hamas of responsibility for what’s happening in Gaza. Your problem is that you seem to think every choice is binary and it’s always a question of either/or. Applying your reasoning if anyone said “Ian Brady was guilty of the Moors murders” that would be the same as saying “therefore Myra Hindley was innocent”. Clearly that would be nonsense. And in the same way saying “Israel is responsible for the deaths in Gaza” is NOT the same as saying “which means Hamas does not have any responsibility”. It’s not a question of it’s either Israel or Hamas. Both have played a part. Most people can see that and don’t have a problem condemning both sides but clearly some do.

I agree that Netanyahu is unlikely to be swayed by the views of Ben Wallace etc. But that wasn’t why I mentioned them. I mentioned them because you’re constantly trying to make out that the position most posters on this thread have taken is somehow extreme or outrageous. It obviously isn’t. It’s a view broadly shared by the people named as well as most nations on the planet as shown by the recent resolution in the UN General Assembly. It’s slavish support of Israeli tactics that’s the extreme position.

Similarly I referenced the US Defence Secretary to show there are other military options. That was in answer to the “there is no alternative” brigade who claim indiscriminate bombing is the only way. It isn’t and never was. It’s down to what Ben Wallace called a “killing rage”.

As for the future I agree sanctions are unlikely. But again that wasn’t my point. You raised the issue of sanctions not me. My point was that since 7/10 Israel has trashed the goodwill it’s enjoyed since its inception. Many people now view it in a very different light and next time there’s a terrorist atrocity they’ll probably shrug their shoulders and say something like “Oh dear. That’s a pity. But what can you expect after they slaughtered so many innocent women and children in Gaza?”. They’ll be seen as no better than the terrorists and to that extent Hamas will have achieved what they wanted.

As I said, it takes a special kind of incompetence to lose the moral high ground to a bunch of murderers but Netanyahu’s government has achieved it.

 

[Hertsseasider]

Not much I can add to this debate on this dreadful situation as there are far more qualified posters.

However, I think we should look behind Hamas at its "supporters" Iran, Qatar and other Arab states and even possibly Russia. The whole aim was to isolate Isreal at any cost. The current backtracking of USA USA USA and the UK from its original "We stand by you approach" is clear evidence

 

[20togo]

It’s untrue to say that me or anyone else is trying to absolve Hamas of responsibility for what’s happening in Gaza. Your problem is that you seem to think every choice is binary and it’s always a question of either/or. Applying your reasoning if anyone said “Ian Brady was guilty of the Moors murders” that would be the same as saying “therefore Myra Hindley was innocent”. Clearly that would be nonsense. And in the same way saying “Israel is responsible for the deaths in Gaza” is NOT the same as saying “which means Hamas does not have any responsibility”. It’s not a question of it’s either Israel or Hamas. Both have played a part. Most people can see that and don’t have a problem condemning both sides but clearly some do.

I agree that Netanyahu is unlikely to be swayed by the views of Ben Wallace etc. But that wasn’t why I mentioned them. I mentioned them because you’re constantly trying to make out that the position most posters on this thread have taken is somehow extreme or outrageous. It obviously isn’t. It’s a view broadly shared by the people named as well as most nations on the planet as shown by the recent resolution in the UN General Assembly. It’s slavish support of Israeli tactics that’s the extreme position.

Similarly I referenced the US Defence Secretary to show there are other military options. That was in answer to the “there is no alternative” brigade who claim indiscriminate bombing is the only way. It isn’t and never was. It’s down to what Ben Wallace called a “killing rage”.

As for the future I agree sanctions are unlikely. But again that wasn’t my point. You raised the issue of sanctions not me. My point was that since 7/10 Israel has trashed the goodwill it’s enjoyed since its inception. Many people now view it in a very different light and next time there’s a terrorist atrocity they’ll probably shrug their shoulders and say something like “Oh dear. That’s a pity. But what can you expect after they slaughtered so many innocent women and children in Gaza?”. They’ll be seen as no better than the terrorists and to that extent Hamas will have achieved what they wanted.

As I said, it takes a special kind of incompetence to lose the moral high ground to a bunch of murderers but Netanyahu’s government has achieved it.

Think you're being clever with your words again. Not sure it's me that's saying it's an either/or too. You say you are not absolving Hamas of responsibility for what is happening in Gaza but you hold the IDF responsible for all the deaths in Gaza. Seems that's two contradictory statements. Anyway you have your view and i have mine and we both hope this war ends soon enough. And i really doubt that people will just shrug their shoulders next time either. And i think you know that! It's a cheap shot to say "what can you expect"! I think a comment like that fails to grasp the threat Israel is and always will be under from some of the Arab world in the Middle East. That should never be forgotten.

 

[basilrobbie3]

Think you're being clever with your words again.

It's not so much that he is being "clever". More that he is making a moderately nuanced point, and you are completely incapable of grasping it.

 

[20togo]

It's not so much that he is being "clever". More that he is making a moderately nuanced point, and you are completely incapable of grasping it.

what? A nuanced point that what can you expect if it happens again? I fully grasp what he is saying because he made it pretty clear. He holds Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza. Are you trying to suggest his nuanced point was not really true and that yes Hamas do have some responsibilty for those deaths? Which is what i was saying in the first place. Hey ho.

 

[basilrobbie3]

what? A nuanced point that what can you expect if it happens again? I fully grasp what he is saying because he made it pretty clear. He holds Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza.

And there you go again, making my point for me.

You either aren't reading what he and plenty of others are saying, or you really are trying to reduce this down to a completely binary issue. This thread could have wound up 400 posts ago, had you not insisted on saying the same thing ad nauseam.

 

[20togo]

R

And there you go again, making my point for me.

You either aren't reading what he and plenty of others are saying, or you really are trying to reduce this down to a completely binary issue. This thread could have wound up 400 posts ago, had you not insisted on saying the same thing ad nauseam.

I will make the point as many times as I want thanks. The war is still taking place so I'm pretty sure there is plenty of things to debate not least the way forward once it's resolved. But hey ho, you keep having your digs at me. I'll keep biting my lips for now.

 

[basilrobbie3]

But hey ho, you keep having your digs at me. I'll keep biting my lips for now.

Pete

I'm just trying to say that you stopped saying anything new on the thread quite a while ago, while wilfully misrepresenting what is said to you in return.

I'm sorry if you take it as a personal dig - but when you post in the style that you do, you are going to get people replying in kind. Why do you think I am such sweetness and light these days? **

** should take this past 1,000 ....

 

[20togo]

Pete

I'm just trying to say that you stopped saying anything new on the thread quite a while ago, while wilfully misrepresenting what is said to you in return.

I'm sorry if you take it as a personal dig - but when you post in the style that you do, you are going to get people replying in kind. Why do you think I am such sweetness and light these days? **

** should take this past 1,000 ....

The fact is that there is very little new to say on the thread because it's pretty much the same miserable fearful day for most people in Gaza and I fully get that. But sorry, when someone[more than one person] says they specifically holds Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza then i don't see how I am misrepresenting them. That point is not about Hamas or the Palestinians, it is about blaming and holding Israel as solely responsible. And something I strongly disagree with.

And just for reference, there's been a few occasions where this thread has started to move down the board and it's not often been me that's resurrected it back to the top.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The fact is that there is very little new to say on the thread because it's pretty much the same miserable fearful day for most people in Gaza and I fully get that. But sorry, when someone[more than one person] says they specifically holds Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza then i don't see how I am misrepresenting them. That point is not about Hamas or the Palestinians, it is about blaming and holding Israel as solely responsible. And something I strongly disagree with.

And just for reference, there's been a few occasions where this thread has started to move down the board and it's not often been me that's resurrected it back to the top.

Actually it’s not correct to say “there is very little new to say”. There is quite a lot new to say.

For instance a couple of days ago I posted links to recent announcements by the U.K. Foreign Secretary, the US Defence Secretary, a much admired former U.K. Defence Secretary, and several senior Tory MPs. They were in their various ways critical of Israeli policy and the way Israel had progressed the war in Gaza. That’s new and it’s news. And it should receive a wider audience.

But what is not new, and in fact is very tired, is your claim that “more than one person says they specifically hold Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza”. Not only does that swerve ongoing developments, it’s also a misrepresentation. It’s untrue. Many posters (myself included) have condemned both Hamas and Israel. And have done so since the beginning of this thread. By contrast others have taken the “if you’re not pro Israel then you’re pro Hamas and antisemitic” stance. The binary view of the world.

But we know this as we’ve been having the same conversation for some time.

So how about trying to move on? And addressing posts as they are made, on the points that are made. Instead of trotting out the same old nonsense that’s been batted back umpteenth times.

For brevity I think from now on I’ll just say “Bollux. See previous posts. On this new point…”. Hopefully that’ll work.

 

[20togo]

Actually it’s not correct to say “there is very little new to say”. There is quite a lot new to say.

For instance a couple of days ago I posted links to recent announcements by the U.K. Foreign Secretary, the US Defence Secretary, a much admired former U.K. Defence Secretary, and several senior Tory MPs. They were in their various ways critical of Israeli policy and the way Israel had progressed the war in Gaza. That’s new and it’s news. And it should receive a wider audience.

But what is not new, and in fact is very tired, is your claim that “more than one person says they specifically hold Israel responsible for all the deaths in Gaza”. Not only does that swerve ongoing developments, it’s also a misrepresentation. It’s untrue. Many posters (myself included) have condemned both Hamas and Israel. And have done so since the beginning of this thread. By contrast others have taken the “if you’re not pro Israel then you’re pro Hamas and antisemitic” stance. The binary view of the world.

But we know this as we’ve been having the same conversation for some time.

So how about trying to move on? And addressing posts as they are made, on the points that are made. Instead of trotting out the same old nonsense that’s been batted back umpteenth times.

For brevity I think from now on I’ll just say “Bollux. See previous posts. On this new point…”. Hopefully that’ll work.

yep your links reached a far wider audience i must say. I think i made my point in reply to them pretty clear. Does Netanyahu seriously give a monkeys what some of these people are saying. It's just lip service with some of them putting it bluntly just having their 15 minutes of fame in the press.

I'd be interested to read all these posts from people saying if you're not pro Israel your pro Hamas. That's you looking at it from a binary pov. Just because someone might be more pro Israel doesn't mean to say they don't have sympathy for the loss of life of all the innocent Palestinians. And if you care to look back at my earliest points on this thread, I feel i did say you could expect a heavy handed response from Israel and to not do so would be showing a sign of weakness. I also questioned whether the motives of the invasion could have sinister connotations and I'm sure I also mentioned about some sort of judgement on their heavy handedness. All I think balanced viewpoints so noy quite the binary view you accuse me of.

As for your bollux comment, well yep it would have been far easier to type that in reply to your post but some things just need explaining to you.

 

[April13th1970]

And there you go again, making my point for me.

You either aren't reading what he and plenty of others are saying, or you really are trying to reduce this down to a completely binary issue. This thread could have wound up 400 posts ago, had you not insisted on saying the same thing ad nauseam.

But, it is a completely binary issue

Either
a) Hamas instigated this war with their cowardly attack on Israel on 07/10 which has caused every casualty on both sides as without the attack there would have been no IDF Response
or
b) Hamas didn't attack Israel on 07/10 which even the most rabid anti-semite would struggle to claim

 

[Mexboroseasider]

But, it is a completely binary issue

Either
a) Hamas instigated this war with their cowardly attack on Israel on 07/10 which has caused every casualty on both sides as without the attack there would have been no IDF Response
or
b) Hamas didn't attack Israel on 07/10 which even the most rabid anti-semite would struggle to claim

Or to put it another way:

Either

A) On the orders of Netanyahu’s government the IDF have dropped bombs and fired artillery shells which have caused circa 20,000 deaths in Gaza.

Or

B) The IDF haven’t dropped any bombs or artillery shells which (on the basis Palestinians are also semites) even the most rabid pro Israel anti-Semite would struggle to claim.

This is similar to the exchange I had with Jaffa where I agreed none of the deaths would have occurred in Gaza if Hamas hadn’t attacked on 7/10 and he agreed none of the deaths in Gaza would have occurred if the IDF hadn’t dropped its bombs. Both of those statements are factually correct and indisputable but obviously don’t fit into a binary world view where you attempt to put all the blame on one side, and exonerate the other from all responsibility.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

yep your links reached a far wider audience i must say. I think i made my point in reply to them pretty clear. Does Netanyahu seriously give a monkeys what some of these people are saying. It's just lip service with some of them putting it bluntly just having their 15 minutes of fame in the press.

I'd be interested to read all these posts from people saying if you're not pro Israel your pro Hamas. That's you looking at it from a binary pov. Just because someone might be more pro Israel doesn't mean to say they don't have sympathy for the loss of life of all the innocent Palestinians. And if you care to look back at my earliest points on this thread, I feel i did say you could expect a heavy handed response from Israel and to not do so would be showing a sign of weakness. I also questioned whether the motives of the invasion could have sinister connotations and I'm sure I also mentioned about some sort of judgement on their heavy handedness. All I think balanced viewpoints so noy quite the binary view you accuse me of.

As for your bollux comment, well yep it would have been far easier to type that in reply to your post but some things just need explaining to you.

For brevity please refer to previous posts.

 

[20togo]

Or to put it another way:

Either

A) On the orders of Netanyahu’s government the IDF have dropped bombs and fired artillery shells which have caused circa 20,000 deaths in Gaza.

Or

B) The IDF haven’t dropped any bombs or artillery shells which (on the basis Palestinians are also semites) even the most rabid pro Israel anti-Semite would struggle to claim.

This is similar to the exchange I had with Jaffa where I agreed none of the deaths would have occurred in Gaza if Hamas hadn’t attacked on 7/10 and he agreed none of the deaths in Gaza would have occurred if the IDF hadn’t dropped its bombs. Both of those statements are factually correct and indisputable but obviously don’t fit into a binary world view where you attempt to put all the blame on one side, and exonerate the other from all responsibility.

And your example is flawed imo. Because without April13ths example then your example would not have occurred. It all has to have a starting point whereas it seems to me you want to focus on a later event. Root cause analysis seems to play no part in your thought process. Oh and I'm still waiting for this evidence where you say people say if you're not pro Israel you're pro Hamas.

 

[Lost Seasider]

But, it is a completely binary issue

Either
a) Hamas instigated this war with their cowardly attack on Israel on 07/10 which has caused every casualty on both sides as without the attack there would have been no IDF Response
or
b) Hamas didn't attack Israel on 07/10 which even the most rabid anti-semite would struggle to claim

I think for in all the attempts to apportion blame, some are losing sight of the wider picture, what alternative course of action could Israel follow?

A ceasefire, followed by what exactly? Make Hamas say they're really sorry for 7/10 and have them write out "I must not rape and murder innocent women and children" 50 times? Do we think that would work?

7/10 was not a terrorist attack, it was a message. The message was "we will never accept the state of Israel, no matter what concessions you make we will always try to destroy you", and that makes it a binary issue for Israel, kill, or be killed.

 

[20togo]

I think for in all the attempts to apportion blame, some are losing sight of the wider picture, what alternative course of action could Israel follow?

A ceasefire, followed by what exactly? Make Hamas say they're really sorry for 7/10 and have them write out "I must not rape and murder innocent women and children" 50 times? Do we think that would work?

7/10 was not a terrorist attack, it was a message. The message was "we will never accept the state of Israel, no matter what concessions you make we will always try to destroy you", and that makes it a binary issue for Israel, kill, or be killed.

whereas I wouldn't quite go that far, it does question the ideology of Hamas. People on here have said that Israels actions in Gaza will create a whole new generation of 'terrorists. That is a point of concern but is it not a case of that is Hamas's ideology and all those sons of Hamas terrorists will be indoctrinated with that hatred of the Jews and Israel. That was happening long before these recent events. As Lost says it's not really a problem that is simply going to go away.

 

[Shandypants]

But, it is a completely binary issue

Either
a) Hamas instigated this war with their cowardly attack on Israel on 07/10 which has caused every casualty on both sides as without the attack there would have been no IDF Response
or
b) Hamas didn't attack Israel on 07/10 which even the most rabid anti-semite would struggle to claim

Conveniently airbrushes the treatment of Palestinians, land theft, children being arrested and imprisonment without trial. You keep siding with Israel all you want, at least the tory Party "friends of Israel" are taking backhanders to support them, what's your excuse?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

And your example is flawed imo. Because without April13ths example then your example would not have occurred. It all has to have a starting point whereas it seems to me you want to focus on a later event. Root cause analysis seems to play no part in your thought process. Oh and I'm still waiting for this evidence where you say people say if you're not pro Israel you're pro Hamas.

And your answer is flawed imo as it ignores the fact that Israel didn’t need to respond in the way it did after 7/10. It had several options, one of which was laid out by the US Defence Secretary (and the former U.K. Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and others). So they could have chosen an intelligence led, targeted and proportionate response. That would’ve kept them within the bounds of international law and maintained their support across the world. Instead they chose indiscriminate bombing that they knew would cause massive loss of innocent lives, including children.

Put it like this:

1. A does something terrible (what you’ve called the Root Cause).

2. B then has a choice. It can also do something terrible. Or it can choose to do something that works. If it chooses to do something terrible then it has to take responsibility for its actions. Not try to wriggle out of responsibility with tortured logic and feeble excuses.

As for the “evidence” you’ve asked for. For brevity I’d refer you to the previous posts on this thread arguing for the binary view. Which you’ve supported. The most recent being from April post 926.

 

[20togo]

Conveniently airbrushes the treatment of Palestinians, land theft, children being arrested and imprisonment without trial. You keep siding with Israel all you want, at least the tory Party "friends of Israel" are taking backhanders to support them, what's your excuse?

yep, classic deflection. You come across as being more aggrieved with the politics of this country than the war itself. No surprise though with you being a staunch Corbyn left wing supporter. And we all know of his anti-semite position.

 

[20togo]

And your answer is flawed imo as it ignores the fact that Israel didn’t need to respond in the way it did after 7/10. It had several options, one of which was laid out by the US Defence Secretary (and the former U.K. Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and others). So they could have chosen an intelligence led, targeted and proportionate response. That would’ve kept them within the bounds of international law and maintained their support across the world. Instead they chose indiscriminate bombing that they knew would cause massive loss of innocent lives, including children.

Put it like this:

1. A does something terrible (what you’ve called the Root Cause).

2. B then has a choice. It can also do something terrible. Or it can choose to do something that works. If it chooses to do something terrible then it has to take responsibility for its actions. Not try to wriggle out of responsibility with tortured logic and feeble excuses.

As for the “evidence” you’ve asked for. For brevity I’d refer you to the previous posts on this thread arguing for the binary view. Which you’ve supported. The most recent being from April post 926.

Already covered that point enough times. If you think that Israel wasn't going to re-act in a heavy handed manner then you are naive in the extreme. And as Lost has mentioned what do you seriously think works bearing in mind we all know the aims of Hamas. Nothing and wait for the next atrocity perhaps? Meanwhile Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel!

Netanyahu - "Well you've murdered and killed over a thousand of our citizens, but hey that's not a problem. What can we do to help you? Here, have a piece of land back. Does that make it fair and alright now? Promise me you won't do it again."

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Already covered that point enough times. If you think that Israel wasn't going to re-act in a heavy handed manner then you are naive in the extreme. And as Lost has mentioned what do you seriously think works bearing in mind we all know the aims of Hamas. Nothing and wait for the next atrocity perhaps? Meanwhile Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel!

Netanyahu - "Well you've murdered and killed over a thousand of our citizens, but hey that's not a problem. What can we do to help you? Here, have a piece of land back. Does that make it fair and alright now? Promise me you won't do it again."

Ignoring what’s been said again? That’s not like you.

For brevity refer to previous posts.

 

[20togo]

Ignoring what’s been said again? That’s not like you.

For brevity refer to previous posts.

eh tu brute. But go on, I'll answer your point. Israel waited ten days before launching their counter offensive. I'd say in that time they were putting their intelligence led information together wouldn't you? And had specific targets in mind. I've already covered the rest of your points enough times.

 

[Shandypants]

yep, classic deflection. You come across as being more aggrieved with the politics of this country than the war itself. No surprise though with you being a staunch Corbyn left wing supporter. And we all know of his anti-semite position.

You can't seperate the politics of the region and the war. I'm not a corbyn supporter, you wrongly assume a lot about posters on here. I'm in the camp that Corbyn is anti-zionist just like many Liberal intelligencia American Jews are. To criticise the state of Israel is not anti-semitic.

 

[gjr]

But, it is a completely binary issue

Either
a) Hamas instigated this war with their cowardly attack on Israel on 07/10 which has caused every casualty on both sides as without the attack there would have been no IDF Response
or
b) Hamas didn't attack Israel on 07/10 which even the most rabid anti-semite would struggle to claim

But it isn't, because it could be argued that if the government of Israel tried harder to treat the majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank in a fair and even handed manner then the shameful, shocking attack by Hamas might not have happened.
This isn't a Hollywood movie about good versus evil, there is good and evil on all sides and by far the greatest number of people in the region will just want to quietly go about living a normal life doing normal things without any of this, irrespective of religion or nationality.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

eh tu brute. But go on, I'll answer your point. Israel waited ten days before launching their counter offensive. I'd say in that time they were putting their intelligence led information together wouldn't you? And had specific targets in mind. I've already covered the rest of your points enough times.

It takes time to move troops, tanks, fuel, ordinance etc from where it is to where it’s needed. It’s called logistics and is vital to armies and successful campaigns. To suggest the 10 day delay was down solely to intelligence gathering so the IDF could respond proportionately is just nonsense. Look at what they did. The complete opposite of a restrained and intelligence led response.

And if the IDF response so far had been intelligence led and targeted why do you think the US Defence Secretary has called for a different approach? An intelligence led and targeted approach. And why are so many commentators (in your party - the Tory party - and elsewhere) are criticising the current tactics? Simple. The response was wrong. And it was wrong on Day 1.

 

[20togo]

It takes time to move troops, tanks, fuel, ordinance etc from where it is to where it’s needed. It’s called logistics and is vital to armies and successful campaigns. To suggest the 10 day delay was down solely to intelligence gathering so the IDF could respond proportionately is just nonsense. Look at what they did. The complete opposite of a restrained and intelligence led response.

And if the IDF response so far had been intelligence led and targeted why do you think the US Defence Secretary has called for a different approach? An intelligence led and targeted approach. And why are so many commentators (in your party - the Tory party - and elsewhere) are criticising the current tactics? Simple. The response was wrong. And it was wrong on Day 1.

the many troops were on the borders of Gaza for days before going in so don't talk nonsense. It was a regular item of the news every day showing the troops ready and prepared for the go ahead.

I repeat

Netanyahu - "Well you've murdered and killed over a thousand of our citizens, but hey that's not a problem. What can we do to help you? Here, have a piece of land back. Does that make it fair and alright now? Promise me you won't do it again."

You need to get in the real world. I'm sorry but it's not all sweetness and light. That's the reality.


And here you are bringing UK politics into your argument. I couldn't give a shit about the Tories or Labour party, it's you who is obsessed by that. An issue that has fuck all to do with the actions Israel take. You always want to deflect from the the actions that started this war. Shame on you.

 

[20togo]

But it isn't, because it could be argued that if the government of Israel tried harder to treat the majority of people in Gaza and the West Bank in a fair and even handed manner then the shameful, shocking attack by Hamas might not have happened.
This isn't a Hollywood movie about good versus evil, there is good and evil on all sides and by far the greatest number of people in the region will just want to quietly go about living a normal life doing normal things without any of this, irrespective of religion or nationality.

You clearly want to forget the key point of what Hamas aims are. And just to remind you over 50% of Gazans support armed conflict. And tell me about Hezbollah, Yemen firing rockets into Israel all in the name of wanting to live quietly. Not to mention Iran who no doubt have been supplying arms to these terrorist organisations. I think some of you underestimate the seriousness of the threat that Israel is under for their right to exist.

 

[Sven]

You clearly want to forget the key point of what Hamas aims are. And just to remind you over 50% of Gazans support armed conflict. And tell me about Hezbollah, Yemen firing rockets into Israel all in the name of wanting to live quietly. Not to mention Iran who no doubt have been supplying arms to these terrorist organisations. I think some of you underestimate the seriousness of the threat that Israel is under for their right to exist.

50% of Gazans are children so does the whole adult population support armed conflict? Or is it 50% of the adult population so closer to 25%? Does supporting armed conflict mean that they support Hamas and the terrorist attacks?

I think clarification is needed before you start using those figures as justification for the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinian citizens.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

I’ve not been on this thread for a few days but just catching up what’s been posted in that time.

Still nothing changed with all the finger pointing by the people who seem to support the Hamas Palestinians in all this.

20,000 civilians killed now according to Hamas have we proof it’s anywhere near 20,000? Genuine question proof being the key question.

One question I would ask is all this is why are they still so many families with children still hell bent in remaining in Gaza city after
all that’s gone on? Why would you still remain unless it’s part of your family that’s fighting on the front line for Hamas?

I see a huge tunnel network has now been discovered by the IDF is it true or made up propaganda? Who knows but for me it’s true just too many things tie up for to make it lie.

100% another ceasefire is needed but for Christs sake those families with children should move out of Gaza city just what is the point on staying waiting to die?

And for the record it’s shocking to see so many children caught up in this war but it’s not just about the IDF calling a truce as Hamas could end this war tomorrow by doing the honourable thing they are as much to blame as the IDF in these killings that are still going on right now by not surrendering in a pointless war they are never going to win.

Another ceasefire is only a temporary stop to it all the killings of women and children are going to continue and I just can’t see an end to it all unless Hamas change their stance.

 

[Sooty59]

Bloody hell no wonder we as a race can't stop blowing each other up reading this thread. Whatever happened to fairness compassion & the willingness to work together for a common goal. I fear it's too far down the line worldwide now & things aren't improving in fact they are worsening, we seem to have become even more divisive. I fear for out children & grandchildren. I never give up hope but find it very unlikely these wars will ever stop & peace prevail.

 

[gjr]

You clearly want to forget the key point of what Hamas aims are. And just to remind you over 50% of Gazans support armed conflict. And tell me about Hezbollah, Yemen firing rockets into Israel all in the name of wanting to live quietly. Not to mention Iran who no doubt have been supplying arms to these terrorist organisations. I think some of you underestimate the seriousness of the threat that Israel is under for their right to exist.

The worse the treatment of the people in Gaza and the West Bank then obviously support for extreme organisations will increase.
I still maintain that the majority of people the world over want to live peacefully but people focus disproportionately on the very small, violent minority.
The leaders of Hamas will almost certainly have used the attack in October to elicit the response that Israel have given because they are extremist psychopaths but the majority of the people that voted for them arent although Israel has definitely created more that will be in the future.
A two state solution is the only answer, unfortunately the extremists on both sides make this unlikely to happen and all the time people with no power or extreme views or actions suffer and die.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

the many troops were on the borders of Gaza for days before going in so don't talk nonsense. It was a regular item of the news every day showing the troops ready and prepared for the go ahead.

I repeat

Netanyahu - "Well you've murdered and killed over a thousand of our citizens, but hey that's not a problem. What can we do to help you? Here, have a piece of land back. Does that make it fair and alright now? Promise me you won't do it again."

You need to get in the real world. I'm sorry but it's not all sweetness and light. That's the reality.


And here you are bringing UK politics into your argument. I couldn't give a shit about the Tories or Labour party, it's you who is obsessed by that. An issue that has fuck all to do with the actions Israel take. You always want to deflect from the the actions that started this war. Shame on you.

So if the current strategy is intelligence led and targeted, as you claim, why is the US Defence Secretary calling for a more intelligence led and targeted approach? Does he not know what he’s talking about? And why are the former U.K. defence secretary and other senior politicians talking about indiscriminate bombing?

As for the nonsense about “bringing U.K. politics into it” as I’ve already explained, it’s relevant because it shows the concerns about the Israeli tactics are widespread across the political spectrum. Criticism of Israel is not somehow extremist or outrageous. It’s widepsread.

And I see Jaffa has popped up again with the claim that if you’re critical of Israel you’re somehow pro Hamas. Although you claimed that had never happened.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I’ve not been on this thread for a few days but just catching up what’s been posted in that time.

Still nothing changed with all the finger pointing by the people who seem to support the Hamas Palestinians in all this.

20,000 civilians killed now according to Hamas have we proof it’s anywhere near 20,000? Genuine question proof being the key question.

One question I would ask is all this is why are they still so many families with children still hell bent in remaining in Gaza city after
all that’s gone on? Why would you still remain unless it’s part of your family that’s fighting on the front line for Hamas?

I see a huge tunnel network has now been discovered by the IDF is it true or made up propaganda? Who knows but for me it’s true just too many things tie up for to make it lie.

100% another ceasefire is needed but for Christs sake those families with children should move out of Gaza city just what is the point on staying waiting to die?

And for the record it’s shocking to see so many children caught up in this war but it’s not just about the IDF calling a truce as Hamas could end this war tomorrow by doing the honourable thing they are as much to blame as the IDF in these killings that are still going on right now by not surrendering in a pointless war they are never going to win.

Another ceasefire is only a temporary stop to it all the killings of women and children are going to continue and I just can’t see an end to it all unless Hamas change their stance.

Criticising Israeli policy or calling for a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Hamas. If it were then the US Defence Secretary and a whole host of senior Tory politicians, to say nothing of the vast majority of nations in the UN General Assembly, would be pro Hamas which clearly they aren’t. Silly comment.

As for the body count in Gaza I’ve previously posted a link to the US media which confirmed the figures are broadly accepted by US Intelligence. Did you not see it or are you ignoring it? Or do you know something US Intelligence doesn’t?

Where do you suggest the population of Gaza goes to when the borders are closed? Are you now advocating ethnic cleansing?

Of course the tunnel network exists. When has anyone denied that?

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Criticising Israeli policy or calling for a ceasefire is not the same as supporting Hamas. If it were then the US Defence Secretary and a whole host of senior Tory politicians, to say nothing of the vast majority of nations in the UN General Assembly, would be pro Hamas which clearly they aren’t. Silly comment.

As for the body count in Gaza I’ve previously posted a link to the US media which confirmed the figures are broadly accepted by US Intelligence. Did you not see it or are you ignoring it? Or do you know something US Intelligence doesn’t?

Where do you suggest the population of Gaza goes to when the borders are closed? Are you now advocating ethnic cleansing?

Of course the tunnel network exists. When has anyone denied that?

You still haven’t changed have you Mex making things up and using words like ethnic cleansing, what the hell has that got to do with leaving Gaza city which i clearly mentioned and not leaving Gaza itself in order to survive?
Yes I know they cannot leave Gaza but they are free to move out of Gaza city where there are far more less bombings and shelling.
We did the same during the blitz London and other cities where the children were evacuated I don’t ever recall that word ethnic cleansing being ever used more of an evacuation.
And you talk about me posting silly comments.

 

[20togo]

50% of Gazans are children so does the whole adult population support armed conflict? Or is it 50% of the adult population so closer to 25%? Does supporting armed conflict mean that they support Hamas and the terrorist attacks?

I think clarification is needed before you start using those figures as justification for the indiscriminate killing of innocent Palestinian citizens.

So a Hamas supporter has to be an adult male? That's a pretty big assumption. And see my point about the ideology of Hamas and the indoctrination that perhaps so many children grow up with.