War again

[20togo]

I don’t know who the Mod’s remarks were directed at, although I could hazard a guess

IMO Shandy’s comment wasn’t antisemitic, either deliberately or in any other way. I think you played that card, and manufactured outrage, because you were losing the wider debate. And you do have a tendency to do that. You accused me of bringing U.K. politics into it and trying to create a right/left divide when I was doing no such thing. And you knew that. It’s one of your tactics. Create an argument about something else to distract from the main topic.

Anyway, I’ve broken my self imposed rule of trying not to comment on the politics side on match days, so I’ll leave it at that.

UTMP and for three points.

more tosh. I'm not losing the wider debate because there is nothing to lose. It's all about opinions on events happening in Israel and Gaza. There is nothing to lose for us on AVFTT. So that's a cheap shot. No problem though.You also accused me of being a Tory when I've told you enough times politics holds no real interest for me although i doubt you believe that. I leave pretty much all that stuff to the likes of you and others who seem to enjoy it. And of course i expect you to back up shandy up, both very left wing in your views. For me it's too coincidental that he comes out accusing people of Islamaphobia which you made it pretty clear you agreed with and then in one line he mentions Jewish people and noses. He says he didn't mean it so perhaps just a case of subconscious anti-semitism. He said he didn't mean it however, so now as i said before it's forgotten and we move on.And the only tactics I'm interested in is Critchleys. As for all the other stuff I simply say what i think and sure, you may not like that but nowt i can do about that.

As for manufactured outrage, well imo you are far more guilty of that than me. You seem to have concerns about pretty much everything happening in the world and the uk at the moment. As is your want of course.

 

[April13th1970]

Absolutely appalled that the admins have shown their true colours (Red,white, green & Black) by allowing Mex to post lies about those of us he disagrees with as fact based on his sick little deluded fantasies about what I do when I'm not posting on here, and then they locked the thread to prevent myself and others having the right to reply, so I'm out of here at least for the time being.

For the avoidance of doubt, i have never privately messaged anyone on AVFTT regarding this or any other matter

 

[Shandypants]

more tosh. I'm not losing the wider debate because there is nothing to lose. It's all about opinions on events happening in Israel and Gaza. There is nothing to lose for us on AVFTT. So that's a cheap shot. No problem though.You also accused me of being a Tory when I've told you enough times politics holds no real interest for me although i doubt you believe that. I leave pretty much all that stuff to the likes of you and others who seem to enjoy it. And of course i expect you to back up shandy up, both very left wing in your views. For me it's too coincidental that he comes out accusing people of Islamaphobia which you made it pretty clear you agreed with and then in one line he mentions Jewish people and noses. He says he didn't mean it so perhaps just a case of subconscious anti-semitism. He said he didn't mean it however, so now as i said before it's forgotten and we move on.And the only tactics I'm interested in is Critchleys. As for all the other stuff I simply say what i think and sure, you may not like that but nowt i can do about that.

As for manufactured outrage, well imo you are far more guilty of that than me. You seem to have concerns about pretty much everything happening in the world and the uk at the moment. As is your want of course.

How many times FFS?? I didn't mention Jewish people and noses by the way, now you're completey distorting what I said. I was happy to call this quits but you don't seem to be able to accept that my comments didn't refer to Jew's. I suggest you stop insinuating such, it's not true or remotely accurate.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

How many times FFS?? I didn't mention Jewish people and noses by the way, now you're completey distorting what I said. I was happy to call this quits but you don't seem to be able to accept that my comments didn't refer to Jew's. I suggest you stop insinuating such, it's not true or remotely accurate.

I shouldn’t get too wound up about it. Most people know he’s talking bollocks.

They prefer to concoct and invent arguments to distract from the real debate.

It’s all part of the propaganda war. Part of which is now telling lies that dead babies are actually dolls. Although to be fair the lies cut both ways.

False claims of staged deaths surge in Israel-Gaza war - BBC News

People on both sides have wrongly claimed deaths were faked, as experts warn it harms hopes for peace.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Absolutely appalled that the admins have shown their true colours (Red,white, green & Black) by allowing Mex to post lies about those of us he disagrees with as fact based on his sick little deluded fantasies about what I do when I'm not posting on here, and then they locked the thread to prevent myself and others having the right to reply, so I'm out of here at least for the time being.

For the avoidance of doubt, i have never privately messaged anyone on AVFTT regarding this or any other matter

Well the thread is unlocked. So you have a right to reply. As you just did.

No idea what “lies” I’m supposed to have told. Can you clarify?

 

[Lost Seasider]

We might have different opinions on what is going on in Gaza right now and how it came about but at the end of the day we all want this terrible war to stop.

Far too many civilians have suffered especially the children many too young to understand why it’s happening and why their parents are being killed.

It’s especially sad to see the suffering at Christmas time when we as Christian’s are celebrating in so many different ways.

Let’s hope and pray a permanent solution is reached soon and puts an end to this war.

Genuine question, can you see any kind of permanent solution that doesn't entail either:

1. no Palestinians, or;
2. no Israelis;

because for the life of me, I can't see how the two could ever peacefully co-exist.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Genuine question, can you see any kind of permanent solution that doesn't entail either:

1. no Palestinians, or;
2. no Israelis;

because for the life of me, I can't see how the two could ever peacefully co-exist.

And slowly the real agenda is revealed.

 

[20togo]

How many times FFS?? I didn't mention Jewish people and noses by the way, now you're completey distorting what I said. I was happy to call this quits but you don't seem to be able to accept that my comments didn't refer to Jew's. I suggest you stop insinuating such, it's not true or remotely accurate.

i simply replied to a Mex post where he accused me of things which are simply not true. I have the right to defend myself and put my pov.

 

[20togo]

And slowly the real agenda is revealed.

what agenda is that? As i've said before it seems to me you have an agenda on pretty much anything. It's you who wants to focus your attention away from the atrocity of 7/10. Why would someone with left wing views as you want to do that?

 

[Tangerinemoss]

20's, can I respectfully make a point? You say you are not a Tory, and I take that face value. Can I ask why you insist on telling us that two posters who, in my terms, are quite middle of the road, are extreme lefties. Apart from calling for a ceasefire like most of the world, their views align with Starmer's Labour Party, which many of us regard as Tory light. Revolutionary Communists are extreme left, SWP, etc, and these guys views are nothing like that.

 

[Lost Seasider]

And slowly the real agenda is revealed.

What's your agenda then?

What's your "long term" solution?

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Genuine question, can you see any kind of permanent solution that doesn't entail either:

1. no Palestinians, or;
2. no Israelis;

because for the life of me, I can't see how the two could ever peacefully co-exist.

Nail on head.

They’ll never be peace between these two countries.

They’ve been at it since 1947.

The Palestinians will never accept a Jewish state and neither will Iran the main instigators in this war.

So it goes on and on without an ending.

 

[April13th1970]

Well the thread is unlocked. So you have a right to reply. As you just did.

No idea what “lies” I’m supposed to have told. Can you clarify?

Yes, but when I posted a separate thread explaining why I was taking a break whilst this thread was locked, my post was deleted and I did not become aware of it until the following day when I posted what was intended to be my final post on AVFTT which you replied to

The lies you told I already referred to in the post you replied to here . . . but for the avoidance of doubt, contrary to your rabid, deluded opinions which you presented as fact in post #991 that many of us who disagree with you have been privately messaging each other, I have never privately messaged anyone on AVFTT

Hopefully, that clarifies why I regard you as an anti-Semitic liar but, if it doesn't, then I have neither the time, energy, desire or wax crayons to further explain to you

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Yes, but when I posted a separate thread explaining why I was taking a break whilst this thread was locked, my post was deleted and I did not become aware of it until the following day when I posted what was intended to be my final post on AVFTT which you replied to

The lies you told I already referred to in the post you replied to here . . . but for the avoidance of doubt, contrary to your rabid, deluded opinions which you presented as fact in post #991 that many of us who disagree with you have been privately messaging each other, I have never privately messaged anyone on AVFTT

Hopefully, that clarifies why I regard you as an anti-Semitic liar but, if it doesn't, then I have neither the time, energy, desire or wax crayons to further explain to you

You’re not mentioned in post 991.

 

[20togo]

Yes, but when I posted a separate thread explaining why I was taking a break whilst this thread was locked, my post was deleted and I did not become aware of it until the following day when I posted what was intended to be my final post on AVFTT which you replied to

The lies you told I already referred to in the post you replied to here . . . but for the avoidance of doubt, contrary to your rabid, deluded opinions which you presented as fact in post #991 that many of us who disagree with you have been privately messaging each other, I have never privately messaged anyone on AVFTT

Hopefully, that clarifies why I regard you as an anti-Semitic liar but, if it doesn't, then I have neither the time, energy, desire or wax crayons to further explain to you

does it beg the question that if he thinks people have been privately messaging each other that he then may well be a moderator/administrator? Otherwise, how would he be privy to such information. Just a thought.

 

[20togo]

20's, can I respectfully make a point? You say you are not a Tory, and I take that face value. Can I ask why you insist on telling us that two posters who, in my terms, are quite middle of the road, are extreme lefties. Apart from calling for a ceasefire like most of the world, their views align with Starmer's Labour Party, which many of us regard as Tory light. Revolutionary Communists are extreme left, SWP, etc, and these guys views are nothing like that.

Thankyou. As i've said numerous times I'm not that fussed about politics and the arguments between red and blue. Same with Brexit, i voted to leave but if there were another vote i'd change my mind. All said with no real conviction but it's an issue that's certainly caused a big divide for those that care enough and who think they know about it. Same with a lot of Tory policies such as privatisation. It's my simplistic view that too many of the industries have been privatised such as Rail, energy and others which should never have been allowed to happen. And that's going back years isn't it? So in that respect my views certainly don't align with tory policy of the last few decades. But politics has moved on and so it's just simply not for me. My view again is there is nowt i can do to influence anything. I do though read a lot of the stuff people write on here and there clearly are some highly intelligent people when it comes to a lot of the stuff they are writing about. So a bit of an explanation on how i think.

Back to the main part of your post. "Tory light"? Well i've not heard that term before but does it really say if many people think that and they disagree with that then they must be further to the left? Just a thought, that's all. And sorry, no idea what SWP is? The only SWP i know is Shaun Wright Phillips. That's not meant to be funny it's just who I associate those initials with. But yes, rightly or wrongly, I do think there some on here who sit well to the left of the Labour party. Maybe my term "extremist" is misjudged, who knows? I'm certainly not a Corbyn fan and his henchman McDonnell[?] is even worse. Although those are both probably old news now. If i could sum up, I'd probably say this country is fucked and it doesn't really matter who is in power.

 

[April13th1970]

does it beg the question that if he thinks people have been privately messaging each other that he then may well be a moderator/administrator? Otherwise, how would he be privy to such information. Just a thought.

I doubt he's a moderator/admin and suspect it's just an outworking of some sad deluded little conspiracy theory he has that those "others" who disagree with him (which I would take to include myself) are all working together. I've never privately messaged anyone regarding my views on Palestine and Gaza and know for a fact he cannot prove otherwise as his pathetic lies to the contrary are exactly that . . .LIES.

Anyway, I've now moved beyond the anger I initially felt regarding his pathetic fictitious tirade and feel nothing but pity for him that he has such a sad and miserably empty life that he has to embark on this insane crusade against those of who refuse to accept his fake narrative

 

[Lost Seasider]

I doubt he's a moderator/admin and suspect it's just an outworking of some sad deluded little conspiracy theory he has that those "others" who disagree with him (which I would take to include myself) are all working together. I've never privately messaged anyone regarding my views on Palestine and Gaza and know for a fact he cannot prove otherwise as his pathetic lies to the contrary are exactly that . . .LIES.

Anyway, I've now moved beyond the anger I initially felt regarding his pathetic fictitious tirade and feel nothing but pity for him that he has such a sad and miserably empty life that he has to embark on this insane crusade against those of who refuse to accept his fake narrative

But then that's what you would say, isn't it?

 

[Tangerinemoss]

Thankyou. As i've said numerous times I'm not that fussed about politics and the arguments between red and blue. Same with Brexit, i voted to leave but if there were another vote i'd change my mind. All said with no real conviction but it's an issue that's certainly caused a big divide for those that care enough and who think they know about it. Same with a lot of Tory policies such as privatisation. It's my simplistic view that too many of the industries have been privatised such as Rail, energy and others which should never have been allowed to happen. And that's going back years isn't it? So in that respect my views certainly don't align with tory policy of the last few decades. But politics has moved on and so it's just simply not for me. My view again is there is nowt i can do to influence anything. I do though read a lot of the stuff people write on here and there clearly are some highly intelligent people when it comes to a lot of the stuff they are writing about. So a bit of an explanation on how i think.

Back to the main part of your post. "Tory light"? Well i've not heard that term before but does it really say if many people think that and they disagree with that then they must be further to the left? Just a thought, that's all. And sorry, no idea what SWP is? The only SWP i know is Shaun Wright Phillips. That's not meant to be funny it's just who I associate those initials with. But yes, rightly or wrongly, I do think there some on here who sit well to the left of the Labour party. Maybe my term "extremist" is misjudged, who knows? I'm certainly not a Corbyn fan and his henchman McDonnell[?] is even worse. Although those are both probably old news now. If i could sum up, I'd probably say this country is fucked and it doesn't really matter who is in power.

Thoughtful post, thank you. Been working and cooking, so forgive the late reply. My own views are to the left of the current Labour Party, who I think need to go further on dealing with the threat to the NHS from private American companies, and the privatised companies which continue to filter revenue to their shareholders without providing the investment promised, water and rail as two easy examples. I don’t thin that makes me an extremist, it is not too far from your own views.
SWP was socialist workers party, probably a forebear of militant and co.
Totally get your disillusionment, my own view is that those of us who are unhappy need to use the ballot box to effect change before things like the NHS and Freeport’s with no laws, become baked in.

 

[Matesrates]

Real danger of serious escalation now, Iran says Israel has killed one of their brigadier generals in Syria, and has said Israel will pay. American has hit Iran backed facilities in Iraq and Hezbollah has clashed on the Israeli border. Throw Putin into the mix, who is friendly with Iran , and it’s a recipe for ww3. Let’s hope some grownups manage to defuse the situation.

 

[Jaffa_The_Hut]

Real danger of serious escalation now, Iran says Israel has killed one of their brigadier generals in Syria, and has said Israel will pay. American has hit Iran backed facilities in Iraq and Hezbollah has clashed on the Israeli border. Throw Putin into the mix, who is friendly with Iran , and it’s a recipe for ww3. Let’s hope some grownups manage to defuse the situation.

Let’s be clear here though America only struck back after its airbase at Erbil in Iraq was attacked by these Iranian backed militia.

Meanwhile the bombing of Gaza still goes on latest strikes kill 250 according to Hamas.

In other news India following an attack on one of its oil tankers is now sending 3 warships to the Arabian sea in order to protect its ships that are in transit.

Finally a Ukrainian drone badly damages a Russian warship in the Crimea in the Black Sea.

Sounds very much like 2024 is going start like 2023 ended.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Genuine question, can you see any kind of permanent solution that doesn't entail either:

1. no Palestinians, or;
2. no Israelis;

because for the life of me, I can't see how the two could ever peacefully co-exist.

Now the festive period and Boxing Day footy are behind us, this seems to be an opportune moment to explore this post a little further.

I think we can agree that the Middle East presents a complex and possibly intractable series of problems. I’ve said a few times that with so many bad actors (Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, the Omatz party on one side and Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran on the other) there may not be a solution. If there is then I’d favour the two state answer, with all the associated problems. Which obviously include Israel’s legitimate security concerns.

But I can’t agree that the answer is extermination or forced removal of either Israelis or Palestinians.

Given your previous pro Israel posts I imagine you favour the “No Palestinians” option but if I’m wrong then please feel free to tell me so.

If I’m right how do you propose you achieve your goal of “No Palestinians”?

Is it:

1. Genocide along the lines of the “Kill all Arabs” chant of Ben Gvir’s party?
2. Is it ethnic cleansing?
3. Is it something else? If so what?

And do you mean Gaza? The West Bank? Or all of Israel?

My final point is more an observation than a question. We’ve been frequently reminded that an objective of Hamas and some (but certainly not all Palestinians and “Arab” nations)is the destruction of Israel and, quite rightly, that’s been condemned. But the “No Palestinian” option has been met with a thumbs up or a deafening silence from the same posters. Is this another example of what some countries call Western double standards?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

what agenda is that? As i've said before it seems to me you have an agenda on pretty much anything. It's you who wants to focus your attention away from the atrocity of 7/10. Why would someone with left wing views as you want to do that?

What agenda is that?

Well the No Palestinian/No Israeli agenda. As per Lost’s post.

You’ve previously made it clear that you find the Hamas goal of the destruction of Israel disgusting (and quite rightly imo). But are you receptive to the “No Palestinian“ objective?

You’ve previously inferred that the removal of Palestinians from Gaza would be a redline for you, which is why I was a bit surprised you let Lost’s post slide and decided to have a pop at me instead.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

I doubt he's a moderator/admin and suspect it's just an outworking of some sad deluded little conspiracy theory he has that those "others" who disagree with him (which I would take to include myself) are all working together. I've never privately messaged anyone regarding my views on Palestine and Gaza and know for a fact he cannot prove otherwise as his pathetic lies to the contrary are exactly that . . .LIES.

Anyway, I've now moved beyond the anger I initially felt regarding his pathetic fictitious tirade and feel nothing but pity for him that he has such a sad and miserably empty life that he has to embark on this insane crusade against those of who refuse to accept his fake narrative

Well that’s a nice festive post on the eve of the season of “Peace and Goodwill to all Men”. And from a self proclaimed Christian too. Lovely

But as you say you’ve now got over your temper tantrum, I’ll repeat a point I made earlier….. you weren’t mentioned in the post that upset you. So why do you think it was referring to you?

Just wondering.

 

[20togo]

What agenda is that?

Well the No Palestinian/No Israeli agenda. As per Lost’s post.

You’ve previously made it clear that you find the Hamas goal of the destruction of Israel disgusting (and quite rightly imo). But are you receptive to the “No Palestinian“ objective?

You’ve previously inferred that the removal of Palestinians from Gaza would be a redline for you, which is why I was a bit surprised you let Lost’s post slide and decided to have a pop at me instead.really

seems to me your post is based on something Lost has said, not me. I think i've said enough times that a solution should be where both Israel should feel under no threat and that Gazans and Palestinians should have the right to self govern without any fear of interference from Israel. All easier said than done of course. But surely the quickest way to end this war and stop the continuous daily deaths of so many peoples is for Hamas to stop their attacks on Israel, lay down their arms and realise that this is a war they can not win. Yeah sure, they might feel that other nations are starting to question the heavy handed approach but they will do nothing about it. You have to remember that the nation of Israel was created for good reason so it will never be considered a pariah state. Even after Netnyahu is gone it will still have the "support of the west". Meanwhile many more will continue to die as Hamas continues to take a war to Israel . For what? To win a propaganda war? And some on here seem to buy into that!!

 

[Lost Seasider]

I’ve said a few times that with so many bad actors (Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, the Omatz party on one side and Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran on the other) there may not be a solution.

Comparing democratically elected politicians with Iranian backed terror groups, I think I see where you're coming from.

If there is then I’d favour the two state answer, with all the associated problems. Which obviously include Israel’s legitimate security concerns.

The facts are that we've had a de facto two-state solution for the last 17 years, if not the last 30, the result was the second intifada, followed by 7/10.

So even if by some miracle a two-state solution could be found, it would only be a matter of time before Hamas, or a similar group, seized power and used it as a launch pad for their next pogrom, at which point they'd be back to where they are today.

Also, from the Telegraph: A two-state solution is the West’s latest luxury belief - We remain glued to an impossible idea that has brought nothing but pain to Israel and the Middle East

Who still has the luxury of believing in the two-state solution? Not the people whose families were slaughtered on October 7, nor parents with sons on the frontlines. To many of them, a Palestinian state must feel like a bizarre response to the worst atrocity in Israel’s history. But in London and Washington, the concept is back in fashion.

It may have been dead in the water for more than twenty years, but politicians are out of ideas. For everyone else, supporting the notion is a way of winning themselves a halo. It is designed to advertise that they are profoundly even-handed. It is, in other words, a luxury belief.

But I can’t agree that the answer is extermination or forced removal of either Israelis or Palestinians.

Given your previous pro Israel posts I imagine you favour the “No Palestinians” option but if I’m wrong then please feel free to tell me so.

If I’m right how do you propose you achieve your goal of “No Palestinians”?

Is it:

1. Genocide along the lines of the “Kill all Arabs” chant of Ben Gvir’s party?
2. Is it ethnic cleansing?
3. Is it something else? If so what?

And do you mean Gaza? The West Bank? Or all of Israel?

I'm asking if anyone can imagine a solution to the problem in a post 7/10 world, when "two-states" is clearly no longer on the table, so far I have seen none.

It seems to me, there are now only two courses of action open to Israel:

1. Gaza/WB as some kind of concentration camp for the next 500 years;
2. forced deportation, perhaps to Lebanon or Syria, with some compensation thrown in to sweeten the deal;

and in the long run, 2 might be the best outcome for all concerned.

If you have any better ideas, please let us know.

My final point is more an observation than a question. We’ve been frequently reminded that an objective of Hamas and some (but certainly not all Palestinians and “Arab” nations)is the destruction of Israel and, quite rightly, that’s been condemned. But the “No Palestinian” option has been met with a thumbs up or a deafening silence from the same posters. Is this another example of what some countries call Western double standards?

Israel has, by its actions, shown that it has no objection in principle to a Palestinian state, Hamas etc have shown that they will never accept Israel, so whatever happens, Israel's hand has been forced.

Not that I expect option 2 will ever happen, however I think I am accurately describing the reality of the situation.

 

[20togo]

Watching BBC News with some woman in Amman refusing to answer the direct question of why Aid is not getting through. IsraeI say they are not controlling it yet this woman won't answer the direct question of who is. I'm pretty sure if it had been Israel she'd have said so. So what conclusion should you draw from that? That Hamas are?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Comparing democratically elected politicians with Iranian backed terror groups, I think I see where you're coming from.



The facts are that we've had a de facto two-state solution for the last 17 years, if not the last 30, the result was the second intifada, followed by 7/10.

So even if by some miracle a two-state solution could be found, it would only be a matter of time before Hamas, or a similar group, seized power and used it as a launch pad for their next pogrom, at which point they'd be back to where they are today.

Also, from the Telegraph: A two-state solution is the West’s latest luxury belief - We remain glued to an impossible idea that has brought nothing but pain to Israel and the Middle East

Who still has the luxury of believing in the two-state solution? Not the people whose families were slaughtered on October 7, nor parents with sons on the frontlines. To many of them, a Palestinian state must feel like a bizarre response to the worst atrocity in Israel’s history. But in London and Washington, the concept is back in fashion.

It may have been dead in the water for more than twenty years, but politicians are out of ideas. For everyone else, supporting the notion is a way of winning themselves a halo. It is designed to advertise that they are profoundly even-handed. It is, in other words, a luxury belief.


I'm asking if anyone can imagine a solution to the problem in a post 7/10 world, when "two-states" is clearly no longer on the table, so far I have seen none.

It seems to me, there are now only two courses of action open to Israel:

1. Gaza/WB as some kind of concentration camp for the next 500 years;
2. forced deportation, perhaps to Lebanon or Syria, with some compensation thrown in to sweeten the deal;

and in the long run, 2 might be the best outcome for all concerned.

If you have any better ideas, please let us know.



Israel has, by its actions, shown that it has no objection in principle to a Palestinian state, Hamas etc have shown that they will never accept Israel, so whatever happens, Israel's hand has been forced.

Not that I expect option 2 will ever happen, however I think I am accurately describing the reality of the situation.

In reply:

On the question of Israeli democracy, you’re right that Israel is often perceived as being the only democracy in the Middle East which is one reason its been given so much leeway historically (that and western sympathy/guilt over the Holocaust). But the fact remains that even democracies are subject to international law and the rules of war. They don’t get a blank cheque.

It’s also worth remembering that, before 7/10, hundreds of thousands of Israelis were marching against Netanyahu’s government in protest at its attempts to subvert the courts and the democratic institutions.

As for the two state solution, I’ve already agreed it faces a lot of obstacles and yes, as I said in my post, that includes Israel’s legitimate security concerns. But just because a problem is difficult doesn’t mean you don’t try to solve it. But certainly you first require goodwill and that is sadly lacking - on both sides. Someone (I think it was Shandy) posted a very informative podcast hosted by Rory Stewart. If you haven’t already done so it’s worth a listen.

As for your “two courses of action” ….

Some would say that Gaza has been a “kind of concentration camp” since it was occupied in 1967 but that didn’t stop 7/10. And why include the West Bank when that’s controlled by Fatah and not Hamas, and Fatah have renounced violence? And what about the Arabs who live in Israel?

And then there’s forced deportation aka ethnic cleansing. You’re assuming Lebanon and Syria would want to take 2m plus refugees (and far more if we include the West Bank). Why should they? And why should Egypt or Jordan? I imagine they’d argue that the Palestinian problem has in their opinion been caused by Israel’s action since 1948 so why should it be foisted on them? They may also argue that if the policy of forced deportation is supported by western countries then they should take their share of refugees. How many do you think the U.K. should take? And do you expect it to be a popular policy here?

And isn’t it just exporting the problem? If the population was magically exported to Syria and Lebanon would that end the violence? Hezbollah are already running a small scale war against northern Israel from the Lebanon. And do we really want to see a resurgence of Islamic State in Syria?

Finally you say “Israel has by its actions shown it has no objection to a Palestinian state”. This just isn’t true, certainly for the last 20 years anyway. Netanyahu has frequently frustrated attempts by the Palestinian Authority to progress the negotiations, preferring instead to cosy up with Hamas in an attempt to undermine Fatah.

But then after arguing that the two state solution is an indulgence of western liberals, in your final paragraph you seem to acknowledge it’s the only option after all.

I really don’t think you’ve thought this post through. What would you have said if one of your juniors had presented you with this plan?

 

[Shandypants]

Comparing democratically elected politicians with Iranian backed terror groups, I think I see where you're coming from.



The facts are that we've had a de facto two-state solution for the last 17 years, if not the last 30, the result was the second intifada, followed by 7/10.

So even if by some miracle a two-state solution could be found, it would only be a matter of time before Hamas, or a similar group, seized power and used it as a launch pad for their next pogrom, at which point they'd be back to where they are today.

Also, from the Telegraph: A two-state solution is the West’s latest luxury belief - We remain glued to an impossible idea that has brought nothing but pain to Israel and the Middle East

Who still has the luxury of believing in the two-state solution? Not the people whose families were slaughtered on October 7, nor parents with sons on the frontlines. To many of them, a Palestinian state must feel like a bizarre response to the worst atrocity in Israel’s history. But in London and Washington, the concept is back in fashion.

It may have been dead in the water for more than twenty years, but politicians are out of ideas. For everyone else, supporting the notion is a way of winning themselves a halo. It is designed to advertise that they are profoundly even-handed. It is, in other words, a luxury belief.


I'm asking if anyone can imagine a solution to the problem in a post 7/10 world, when "two-states" is clearly no longer on the table, so far I have seen none.

It seems to me, there are now only two courses of action open to Israel:

1. Gaza/WB as some kind of concentration camp for the next 500 years;
2. forced deportation, perhaps to Lebanon or Syria, with some compensation thrown in to sweeten the deal;

and in the long run, 2 might be the best outcome for all concerned.

If you have any better ideas, please let us know.



Israel has, by its actions, shown that it has no objection in principle to a Palestinian state, Hamas etc have shown that they will never accept Israel, so whatever happens, Israel's hand has been forced.

Not that I expect option 2 will ever happen, however I think I am accurately describing the reality of the situation.

I'd prefer to listen to Daniel Levy a British Israeli Jew who has been an advisor to the Israel government and a peace negotiator.
I doubt you will watch and listen, you've made your mind up.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

seems to me your post is based on something Lost has said, not me. I think i've said enough times that a solution should be where both Israel should feel under no threat and that Gazans and Palestinians should have the right to self govern without any fear of interference from Israel. All easier said than done of course. But surely the quickest way to end this war and stop the continuous daily deaths of so many peoples is for Hamas to stop their attacks on Israel, lay down their arms and realise that this is a war they can not win. Yeah sure, they might feel that other nations are starting to question the heavy handed approach but they will do nothing about it. You have to remember that the nation of Israel was created for good reason so it will never be considered a pariah state. Even after Netnyahu is gone it will still have the "support of the west". Meanwhile many more will continue to die as Hamas continues to take a war to Israel . For what? To win a propaganda war? And some on here seem to buy into that!!

Well yes. Lost posted, I commented on that post, you replied and I replied to you. That’s how message boards work.

I agree it’d be wonderful if Hamas laid down its arms tomorrow. Do you think that’s likely to happen? If not, why not focus on reality rather than fantasy?

Any views on Lost’s two courses of action?

1. Concentration camps
2. Forced deportation.

Are those workable solutions to you?

If not, what’s your solution?

 

[20togo]

Well yes. Lost posted, I commented on that post, you replied and I replied to you. That’s how message boards work.

I agree it’d be wonderful if Hamas laid down its arms tomorrow. Do you think that’s likely to happen? If not, why not focus on reality rather than fantasy?

Any views on Lost’s two courses of action?

1. Concentration camps
2. Forced deportation.

Are those workable solutions to you?

If not, what’s your solution?

find it a bit rich with your fantasy comment. That's pretty much all you've done every time you bring the UN and what various members, politicians here and abroad have said. And as I've said enough times to you Israel isn't really gonna take any notice of them are they?

To answer your question which is really a silly one although Losts post isn't because he makes a point. Neither of those two courses of action are acceptable, indeed they are both highly offensive but just like me we both just don't know what the acceptable solution is. And bear in mind, that's not an acceptable solution to the likes of you and me, it's to the Palestinians and Israelis!

Oh and just to answer a previous sarcastic comment of yours I tend think generally speaking your side of the debate replies to points made by our side of the debate and vice versa. Not often, we reply to our own side of the debate apart from the thumbs up or if we want to add something. That's how it works.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Watching BBC News with some woman in Amman refusing to answer the direct question of why Aid is not getting through. IsraeI say they are not controlling it yet this woman won't answer the direct question of who is. I'm pretty sure if it had been Israel she'd have said so. So what conclusion should you draw from that? That Hamas are?

I think I saw that interview (and it’s on a loop anyway so may be on again).

If it was the lady from the UN then she said the delays were caused by Israeli checks and a new system is needed.

I also don’t see what influence Hamas has outside of Gaza to influence the inflow? Once the supplies are in Gaza then I agree they’ll be hugely influential and may have first dibs.

 

[20togo]

I think I saw that interview (and it’s on a loop anyway so may be on again).

If it was the lady from the UN then she said the delays were caused by Israeli checks and a new system is needed.

I also don’t see what influence Hamas has outside of Gaza to influence the inflow? Once the supplies are in Gaza then I agree they’ll be hugely influential and may have first dibs.

whether it was the same clip I don't know but she was asked the same direct question several times and ducked the answer every time.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

find it a bit rich with your fantasy comment. That's pretty much all you've done every time you bring the UN and what various members, politicians here and abroad have said. And as I've said enough times to you Israel isn't really gonna take any notice of them are they?

To answer your question which is really a silly one although Losts post isn't because he makes a point. Neither of those two courses of action are acceptable, indeed they are both highly offensive but just like me we both just don't know what the acceptable solution is. And bear in mind, that's not an acceptable solution to the likes of you and me, it's to the Palestinians and Israelis!

Well the vote in the UN General Assembly and the comments of leading politicians condemning Israeli actions are facts. They happened. But yes I agree, Israel are ignoring international comment.

Your call for Hamas to surrender and immediately disarm is pure fantasy.

I’m pleased that, once pressed, you agreed that Lost’s two “courses of action” were not acceptable and are indeed offensive I agree.

I also agree that it doesn’t really matter what we do, or don’t, find acceptable. It’s what the Israelis and Palestinians are able to agree on that’s “acceptable”. Like you I’m also sceptical they will ever be able to agree anything.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

whether it was the same clip I don't know but she was asked the same direct question several times and ducked the answer every time.

I think it’s on a loop so you may be able to watch it again. It’s just after the Israeli spokesman who says there is unlimited and unrestricted supply. Which begs the question why the UN Security Council spent so long debating it to avoid the US exercising its veto. If the supply was already unlimited and unrestricted then the resolution wasn’t needed. And yet it happened.

The lady (who I think was from the UN agency in charge rather than a Hamas spokesperson) was asked twice. The first time she didn’t answer the question, just made the point that far more supplies were needed. When asked the second time she referred to Israeli checks and the need for a different system.

 

[20togo]

Well the vote in the UN General Assembly and the comments of leading politicians condemning Israeli actions are facts. They happened. But yes I agree, Israel are ignoring international comment.

Your call for Hamas to surrender and immediately disarm is pure fantasy.

I’m pleased that, once pressed, you agreed that Lost’s two “courses of action” were not acceptable and are indeed offensive I agree.

I also agree that it doesn’t really matter what we do, or don’t, find acceptable. It’s what the Israelis and Palestinians are able to agree on that’s “acceptable”. Like you I’m also sceptical they will ever be able to agree anything.

'We could have a vote on AVFTT and the results would be a fact too. Their words just like ours mean nothing. And I'm glad you acknowledge that by Hamas failing to surrender and disarm will only mean the death of probably many more innocent people.

 

[20togo]

I think it’s on a loop so you may be able to watch it again. It’s just after the Israeli spokesman who says there is unlimited and unrestricted supply. Which begs the question why the UN Security Council spent so long debating it to avoid the US exercising its veto. If the supply was already unlimited and unrestricted then the resolution wasn’t needed. And yet it happened.

The lady (who I think was from the UN agency in charge rather than a Hamas spokesperson) was asked twice. The first time she didn’t answer the question, just made the point that far more supplies were needed. When asked the second time she referred to Israeli checks and the need for a different system.

But are those checks actually stopping Aid getting thru into Gaza? I think it reasonable that Israel has the right to carry out some form of checks but once that is done then there shouldn't be a problem. And I really don't get your point about the UN debating it. Has Israel said that the supply of aid has always been unlimited and unrestricted? Of course it hasn't because it clearly wasn't.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

'We could have a vote on AVFTT and the results would be a fact too. Their words just like ours mean nothing. And I'm glad you acknowledge that by Hamas failing to surrender and disarm will only mean the death of probably many more innocent people.

Yes I do agree that Hamas failing to surrender and disarm will only mean the death of more innocent people.

I assume you’ll also agree that the Israeli refusal to stop bombing Gaza will only mean the death of more innocent people?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

But are those checks actually stopping Aid getting thru into Gaza? I think it reasonable that Israel has the right to carry out some form of checks but once that is done then there shouldn't be a problem. And I really don't get your point about the UN debating it. Has Israel said that the supply of aid has always been unlimited and unrestricted? Of course it hasn't because it clearly wasn't.

That’s what the lady said yes. Israeli checks were preventing aid getting through in anywhere near the levels required.

And yes the Israeli spokesman said something along the lines of “The Israeli cabinet agreed on the first day that there’d be unlimited and unrestricted humanitarian supplies”. They may not be the exact words he used but that was the gist of it. Which would mean the recent Security Council resolution on humanitarian aid wasn’t needed at all. Whereas it was. Personally I think he was fibbing.

 

[20togo]

Yes I do agree that Hamas failing to surrender and disarm will only mean the death of more innocent people.

I assume you’ll also agree that the Israeli refusal to stop bombing Gaza will only mean the death of more innocent people?

yes i agree but here's the difference. It's a war Hamas cannot win whereas it's a war Israel will win. So it's Hamas that is prolonging the war and bringing unnecessary death and suffering to those innocent people of Gaza. And as i think you've perhaps already said, Hamas care little for the people of Gaza and the effect they are having on the nation..

 

[Mexboroseasider]

yes i agree but here's the difference. It's a war Hamas cannot win whereas it's a war Israel will win. So it's Hamas that is prolonging the war and bringing unnecessary death and suffering to those innocent people of Gaza. And as i think you've perhaps already said, Hamas care little for the people of Gaza and the effect they are having on the nation..

I think that’s fair comment except that I don’t think Hamas ever expected to win militarily. Their objective was different and that was to get the world to view Israel very differently.

This article touches on the point I’m trying to get at. So to that extent the longer the war goes on, and the more Palestinians killed, the better the Hamas war objectives are achieved.

Why US double standards on Israel and Russia play into a dangerous game | US news | The Guardian

The west’s equivocation on Gaza exposes a global order facing mutiny over its domination of the international discourse

amp.theguardian.com

 

[20togo]

I think that’s fair comment except that I don’t think Hamas ever expected to win militarily. Their objective was different and that was to get the world to view Israel very differently.

This article touches on the point I’m trying to get at. So to that extent the longer the war goes on, and the more Palestinians killed, the better the Hamas war objectives are achieved.

Why US double standards on Israel and Russia play into a dangerous game | US news | The Guardian

The west’s equivocation on Gaza exposes a global order facing mutiny over its domination of the international discourse

amp.theguardian.com

The very left wing Guardian. I've pretty much already covered the point. It's naive to think that the world are ever gonna turn against the nation of Israel. A nation created for all the right reasons.

 

[Shandypants]

The very left wing Guardian. I've pretty much already covered the point. It's naive to think that the world are ever gonna turn against the nation of Israel. A nation created for all the right reasons.

A nation who is currently governed by a right wing extreme who wanted the Palestinian

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The very left wing Guardian. I've pretty much already covered the point. It's naive to think that the world are ever gonna turn against the nation of Israel. A nation created for all the right reasons.

Very left wing.

The truth is that Israel are already losing support. That’s what the US thinks anyway.

Here’s a report from “the very left wing” reporting agency Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-israel-starting-lose-support-over-indiscriminate-bombing-gaza-2023-12-12/

 

[20togo]

Very left wing.

The truth is that Israel are already losing support. That’s what the US thinks anyway.

Here’s a report from “the very left wing” reporting agency Reuters

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-israel-starting-lose-support-over-indiscriminate-bombing-gaza-2023-12-12/

mmm...pretty much stating the obvious. Think it was said on here a while back that the longer the war went on it was inevitable that Israel would start to lose support. But it's two totally different things between "losing support" and thinking that there's ever gonna be some sort of long term actions taking against Israel for a war Hamas started. Ooops yes, we keep coming back to that key point don't we. A war started by Hamas.

 

[Old_Laytonian]

If the United Nations of AVFTT can't sort the situation there's no hope

 

[Lost Seasider]

As for the two state solution, I’ve already agreed it faces a lot of obstacles and yes, as I said in my post, that includes Israel’s legitimate security concerns. But just because a problem is difficult doesn’t mean you don’t try to solve it. But certainly you first require goodwill and that is sadly lacking - on both sides.

Definition of insanity, trying the same thing you have been trying to do for the last 50+ years and thinking it's somehow going to work this time.

It's not a difficult problem, the Palestinians, and their sponsors in Iran and beyond, have made it clear that they will NEVER accept the existence of the state of Israel, that makes it an unsolvable problem.

So we're back to the fundamental question, what is the least bad outcome?

 

[Mexboroseasider]

Definition of insanity, trying the same thing you have been trying to do for the last 50+ years and thinking it's somehow going to work this time.

It's not a difficult problem, the Palestinians, and their sponsors in Iran and beyond, have made it clear that they will NEVER accept the existence of the state of Israel, that makes it an unsolvable problem.

So we're back to the fundamental question, what is the least bad outcome?

I still think extermination/expulsion of an entire race/people is the worst option.

But carry on pushing your “No Palestinians” course of action if you wish.

 

[Lost Seasider]

I still think extermination/expulsion of an entire race/people is the worst option.

But carry on pushing your “No Palestinians” course of action if you wish.

The Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution, the end.

 

[Mexboroseasider]

The Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution, the end.

And someone who can suggest the extermination/expulsion of an entire race/people as the solution has lost his moral compass. The end.