War again

Lost Seasider said:
What are the alternatives?
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As I said about a thousand posts ago - I dunno.

The Two State solution, with all its problems and obstacles, seems the best to me. If there’s goodwill to progress the negotiations. On both sides. Which is sadly lacking currently. On both sides. That wasn’t always the case. As history proves. Rabin. Arafat. Etc.

But accepting there may be no solution is not the same as accepting annihilation/ethnic cleansing is the solution. No solution means just that.

And by the way. If you’re seriously advocating the destruction of the Palestinian people as a real choice then really you’re no different to Hamas and all those you despise. Who advocate the destruction of Israel.
 
20togo said:
mmm...pretty much stating the obvious. Think it was said on here a while back that the longer the war went on it was inevitable that Israel would start to lose support. But it's two totally different things between "losing support" and thinking that there's ever gonna be some sort of long term actions taking against Israel for a war Hamas started. Ooops yes, we keep coming back to that key point don't we. A war started by Hamas.
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If you took the time to watch the Daniel Levy interview I posted, it's clear that some moderate, educated Jews don't squarely lay the blame at the door of Hamas. They look at their own failures and the oppression of other people as the back drop. He also scoffs as fake anti semitism that is promoted by the current Israeli govt and undermines real anti semitism.
If people like Levy say it I'm sure many other Jewish people agree. It's also encouraging that he doesn't prescribe to the destruction of palestine, Netanyahu is backing himself into a bad corner here and I personally think it's only a matter of time before his premiership is over.
 
Shandypants said:
If you took the time to watch the Daniel Levy interview I posted, it's clear that some moderate, educated Jews don't squarely lay the blame at the door of Hamas. They look at their own failures and the oppression of other people as the back drop. He also scoffs as fake anti semitism that is promoted by the current Israeli govt and undermines real anti semitism.
If people like Levy say it I'm sure many other Jewish people agree. It's also encouraging that he doesn't prescribe to the destruction of palestine, Netanyahu is backing himself into a bad corner here and I personally think it's only a matter of time before his premiership is over.
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but have i said anything different to that? It seems pretty obvious Netanyahu is leading a divided country.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
As I said about a thousand posts ago - I dunno.

The Two State solution, with all its problems and obstacles, seems the best to me. If there’s goodwill to progress the negotiations. On both sides. Which is sadly lacking currently. On both sides. That wasn’t always the case. As history proves. Rabin. Arafat. Etc.
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You're not listening, the Israelis have been pursuing a two-state solution for the past 30 years or so, it fails every time for one very simple reason, the Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution.


Mexboroseasider said:
But accepting there may be no solution is not the same as accepting annihilation/ethnic cleansing is the solution. No solution means just that.
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That is a solution, it might be a bad one, but from a limited menu of bad solutions it might not be the worst, and could potentially be structured in a way to benefit the Palestinians.

So we're back to the same fundamental question, what is the least bad outcome?


Mexboroseasider said:
And by the way. If you’re seriously advocating the destruction of the Palestinian people as a real choice then really you’re no different to Hamas and all those you despise. Who advocate the destruction of Israel.
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There is a crucial difference, I am trying to think about what's best for the Palestinian people, and the status-quo may not be that.
 
Lost Seasider said:
You're not listening, the Israelis have been pursuing a two-state solution for the past 30 years or so, it fails every time for one very simple reason, the Palestinians will never accept a two-state solution.



That is a solution, it might be a bad one, but from a limited menu of bad solutions it might not be the worst, and could potentially be structured in a way to benefit the Palestinians.

So we're back to the same fundamental question, what is the least bad outcome?



There is a crucial difference, I am trying to think about what's best for the Palestinian people, and the status-quo may not be that.
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No you’re not listening. The Israelis have been frustrating a two state solution for at least the last 20 years. Hamas may not agree to a two state solution but Fatah have. The past offers some hope. Even the present offers some hope. Netanyahu and Hamas have had dialogue and negotiations re the hostages/Palestian detainees. A thin sliver I agree. But a sliver of hope nonetheless. They can negotiate if they have to.

Ethnic cleansing is not a solution. Pretending it may be in the best interests of the Palestinians is cynical beyond belief. And that’s before all the practical obstacles I mentioned in a previous post that you’ve ignored. Where would the refugees go? How many would come to the U.K.?
 
Shandypants said:
Yes you categorically blame hamas 100%. He didn't
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no, it's clear that many Jewish/Israeli people don't like Netanyahu and will be highly critical of his actions and his failures. Does that mean it's incorrect to say Hamas didn't start the war?. I blame Hamas 100% for starting the war. Not for events and actions that preceded it. Big difference.
 
20togo said:
no, it's clear that many Jewish/Israeli people don't like Netanyahu and will be highly critical of his actions and his failures. Does that mean it's incorrect to say Hamas didn't start the war?. I blame Hamas 100% for starting the war. Not for events and actions that preceded it. Big difference.
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I'm not sure how you separate actions preceding 7/10 from the current t conflict, it's a naive take in my opinion. Nor do many moderate American jews who are appalled by Netanyahu.
 
Shandypants said:
Deflect if you want, in the eyes of moderate jews they can understand why it happened.
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no deflection at all. Assume you won't give a definitive yes or no. Yet here you are NOW calling for a humanitarian ceasefire so the two sides can get together to try and find a way to resolve this crisis. Do you think events of 7/10 have helped the situation?Seems to me you are approving of the events of 7/10 because it puts Netanyahu more in the spotlight.
 
I see Russia has carried out its biggest bombardment yet in this war 110 missiles fired on 6 Ukrainian cities overnight killing 12 civilian people and injuring at least 60 with numbers expected to rise.

Now I know it’s not quite on the scale of the war in Gaza as regards civilians being killed but why aren’t we that bothered about civilians being killed by Putin in this war as we no longer have threads about it so do we just accept it now as Gaza has taken over?

It’s not a dig by at anyone by the way it’s a simple question?
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I see Russia has carried out its biggest bombardment yet in this war 110 missiles fired on 6 Ukrainian cities overnight killing 12 civilian people and injuring at least 60 with numbers expected to rise.

Now I know it’s not quite on the scale of the war in Gaza as regards civilians being killed but why aren’t we that bothered about civilians being killed by Putin in this war as we no longer have threads about it so do we just accept it now as Gaza has taken over?

It’s not a dig by at anyone by the way it’s a simple question?
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Yes agreed. Terrible.
There is a general media and AVFTT fatigue with the Ukraine War. Hamas did Putin a major favour, and maybe at his behest to some extent. Arms supplies likely to start to dry up for Ukraine as well.
 
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Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I see Russia has carried out its biggest bombardment yet in this war 110 missiles fired on 6 Ukrainian cities overnight killing 12 civilian people and injuring at least 60 with numbers expected to rise.

Now I know it’s not quite on the scale of the war in Gaza as regards civilians being killed but why aren’t we that bothered about civilians being killed by Putin in this war as we no longer have threads about it so do we just accept it now as Gaza has taken over?

It’s not a dig by at anyone by the way it’s a simple question?
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I think it's probably because everyone is in agreement over the Ukraine war and are united in their support of Ukraine and their disgust at Putin's behaviour.

To me Netanyahu is the same as Putin . . egotistical bully who doesn't care about human life in his pursuit of land and power.

Not everyone agrees with this opinion hence the lengthy debates.
 
Putin didn’t have to invade Ukraine but he did and as a result some 40,000-50,000 (maybe even more) of his soldiers have been killed he expected to overrun the whole country in just a few short weeks instead 18 months on it’s ground to a stalemate.

Hamas didn’t have to invade Israel but they did and as a result most of the Hamas fighters in that region have been killed along with 15,000-18,000 Palestinian civilians have also been killed.

So finally did Israel have to invade Gaza?
I think we’d all agree anyone invading your country and murdering 1,400 of your innocent civilians is going to provoke a quick and brutal military response so no surprises there I’d say.

Roll on some 11-12 weeks and the bombardment of Gaza is still brutal and civilians are dying every day so yes a lot of similarities with life in Ukraine albeit not on the same scale.

When these two wars are over Netanyahu is a finished man but Putin is already standing for another term in office and will no doubt cruise to victory once again.

It’ll be interesting when it’s all over if both men are charged with war crimes as both have clearly ordered them.

Absolutely no chance with Putin maybe half a chance with Netanyahu?
I also think there’s a third party involved with war crimes possibly even a fourth surely the leader of Hamas nicely tucked away in exile in Qatar and the Islamic leader of Iran who’s country planned and supplied weapons probably even freedom fighters as well for those 07/10 attacks but alas none of them will ever stand trial.

I think it’s safe to say the war in Gaza will end much sooner than in Ukraine but as for an ever lasting piece in either country then God only knows. 🤷‍♂️
 
Ukraine has hit back at Russia after their massive bombing by bombing inside Russia. Russia have said they will retaliate, this looks like a major escalation, given the west have said that they’re supplying weapons on the understanding they won’t be used to target Russian territory.
 
Matesrates said:
Ukraine has hit back at Russia after their massive bombing by bombing inside Russia. Russia have said they will retaliate, this looks like a major escalation, given the west have said that they’re supplying weapons on the understanding they won’t be used to target Russian territory.
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Usual Russian sabre rattling, ignore.
 
Seems Hamas have an endless stream of firearms and rockets. They must have had one helluva arsenal of weapons which they must have been stockpiling for months/years. Is there a route that they are still getting weapons into Gaza?
 
Is the world order changing?, the west has dominated for decades, but it seems to me that the balance of influence is changing. The Brics organisation which has both China and Russia as members, now welcomes Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia , Egypt, Iran and the UAE to its ranks. That’s a powerful grouping and the collective west will have to up its game.
 
Matesrates said:
Is the world order changing?, the west has dominated for decades, but it seems to me that the balance of influence is changing. The Brics organisation which has both China and Russia as members, now welcomes Ethiopia, Saudi Arabia , Egypt, Iran and the UAE to its ranks. That’s a powerful grouping and the collective west will have to up its game.
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No. China and Russia are temporarily aligned but far from friends and also far more concerned about their domestic economies surviving the next 2 years. UAE vs Iran vs Egypt want completely different outcomes in the Middle East.
Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria are all reasons why Europe can't/won't take a proactive lead. A Western driven UN with a better track record in the Middle East could force a cease fire, allow and assist with surgical strikes against Hamas while restraining the IDF. Moderates like Qatar, India, UAE, Saudi would be able to keep balance...but nobody in the Arab world trusts the UN.
I think the conflict will last all of 2024. 😔
 
Two major incidents in the last couple of days in Lebanon, and especially the one in Iran, which feel like messages sent and received?
A spread into a much wider regional conflict looks to be on it’s way.
 
Part of the reason why so many "children" are being killed: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/04/children-tunnels-arm-hamas-israel-gaza/

Footage of children inside Hamas tunnels stretching under Gaza has been released by Israel, which claimed the terror group was using minors to “deliver ammunition”.

A small group of young boys can be seen walking through a subterranean structure in the clip, published by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on Thursday, towards what appears to be a heavily armed Hamas terrorist.

“Children are sent to the battlefields after an attack in order to assess the damage and report it to the terrorists who are hiding in shelters,” the IDF added.

Special Hamas-run camps also teach children how to “shoot weapons, attack from a tunnel, fight against tanks and kidnap soldiers”, the IDF told Fox News on Wednesday.
 
Lost Seasider said:
Part of the reason why so many "children" are being killed: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/04/children-tunnels-arm-hamas-israel-gaza/

Footage of children inside Hamas tunnels stretching under Gaza has been released by Israel, which claimed the terror group was using minors to “deliver ammunition”.

A small group of young boys can be seen walking through a subterranean structure in the clip, published by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on Thursday, towards what appears to be a heavily armed Hamas terrorist.

“Children are sent to the battlefields after an attack in order to assess the damage and report it to the terrorists who are hiding in shelters,” the IDF added.

Special Hamas-run camps also teach children how to “shoot weapons, attack from a tunnel, fight against tanks and kidnap soldiers”, the IDF told Fox News on Wednesday.
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That’s just shocking it really is.

Hamas making such a big song and dance about the children caught up in this war then you read a story like that.

I’ve said it before Hamas care about themselves no one else this just proves it.
 
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Lost Seasider said:
Part of the reason why so many "children" are being killed: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/01/04/children-tunnels-arm-hamas-israel-gaza/

Footage of children inside Hamas tunnels stretching under Gaza has been released by Israel, which claimed the terror group was using minors to “deliver ammunition”.

A small group of young boys can be seen walking through a subterranean structure in the clip, published by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on Thursday, towards what appears to be a heavily armed Hamas terrorist.

“Children are sent to the battlefields after an attack in order to assess the damage and report it to the terrorists who are hiding in shelters,” the IDF added.

Special Hamas-run camps also teach children how to “shoot weapons, attack from a tunnel, fight against tanks and kidnap soldiers”, the IDF told Fox News on Wednesday.
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but in the eyes of some on here all these deaths in Gaza are Israels fault.
 
www.bbc.co.uk

Israel-Palestinian bitterness deepened by Hamas attack and war

Both Israelis and Palestinians believe the world does not understand their pain and suffering.
www.bbc.co.uk


"Most notably, in the survey, 72% of the Palestinian public believed that Hamas's decision to launch its offensive on 7th October was correct."

So if they believe the offensive was correct is it reasonable they were happy with the murder of so many innocent Jewish citizens?
 
Danny Ocean said:
When the Torys are in trouble you can rely on them to start a military conflict to raise the ratings in the polls.
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The Falklands victory won Iron Maggie a second term in office but like then needs must I afraid.

What these rebels are doing is totally wrong attacking international shipping just what gives them the right?

Just pirates on the high seas so should be dealt with accordingly.
 
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hertfordseasider said:
That is one of the most stupid posts ever on this board in a history of many whoppers. Now I don't rate the Tories, but that comment of yours is just bullshit.
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So why does the UK have to get involved if it's not for potential political gain, we can't even manage to patrol the waters off our coast successfully. We should remain neutral like France and Germany.
 
Danny Ocean said:
So why does the UK have to get involved if it's not for potential political gain, we can't even manage to patrol the waters off our coast successfully. We should remain neutral like France and Germany.
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Because if it is ignored then the movement of oil and gas will be stopped and we, and the rest of the Western world will have massive oil and gas price rises and it will massively hurt our economy and those of the the other countries, in tandem with what Russia are doing and the economy will be absolutely fucked again just as it was starting to ease, prices will rise, inflation will rise and people will lose their jobs.

Just because Germany and France haven't done anything yet, doesn't mean to say that they won't and frankly someone has to do something.. I said it was a thoroughly depressing world we live in and that I am sure whichever party was in charge they would have done the same. But to say we have done it because the Tories see it as an election help is, frankly, absurd, Why can't some people on here see things outside their totally blinkered political viewpoint and make everything about Tory or Labour, it's absolutely pathetic.
 
It's all fucked really isn't it? Now you have the Israeli ambassador admitting they want to ethnically cleanse Palestine, I mean we all knew it but now they don't care who knows because no one's going to do anything to stop them.
 
Lost Seasider said:
LEL, they can't even take a country 1/3 their size armed with second hand weapons, what are their chances against first-rate military powers?
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A lot of Ukraines hardware were ex soviet tanks and aircraft not the best to be honest renowned for breaking down.

The Russians are still using much of it themselves hence why they are struggling so much they have a third generation tank and the very latest Mig attack aircraft but just dare not use them in Ukraine for fear of losing them all.
 
20togo said:
yes i agree but here's the difference. It's a war Hamas cannot win whereas it's a war Israel will win. So it's Hamas that is prolonging the war and bringing unnecessary death and suffering to those innocent people of Gaza. And as i think you've perhaps already said, Hamas care little for the people of Gaza and the effect they are having on the nation..
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I've largely stayed out of this albeit I've been tempted to take you up on some of your posts. You talk about other posters' naivety and yet you seem to believe that "it's a war Israel will win." I don't see anybody winning this war. This conflict has taken the irresolvable political, ethnic and religious issues in the Middle East to a higher and ever more dangerous level. When Israel reach the point of withdrawing its military from Gaza not one of the these issues will have been resolved. Many, many people will have died, livelihoods will have been lost, homes destroyed and the combatants' beliefs hardened. Iran will have become the host provider of arms to all anti-Israeli terrorist organisations in the area. Lebanon's stance against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank will have hardened. Nothing approaching a win for anyone will have come out of this.
 
20togo said:
But are those checks actually stopping Aid getting thru into Gaza? I think it reasonable that Israel has the right to carry out some form of checks but once that is done then there shouldn't be a problem. And I really don't get your point about the UN debating it. Has Israel said that the supply of aid has always been unlimited and unrestricted? Of course it hasn't because it clearly wasn't.
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Those checks cause delay to the point where supplies don't get through, especially if the checking authority is being deliberately awkward.

Just think back to those early days of border control when fruit and veg was going off at Dover due to the delays caused by the change in Brexit rules.

Same thing over there.
 
Jaffa_The_Hut said:
I see Russia has carried out its biggest bombardment yet in this war 110 missiles fired on 6 Ukrainian cities overnight killing 12 civilian people and injuring at least 60 with numbers expected to rise.

Now I know it’s not quite on the scale of the war in Gaza as regards civilians being killed but why aren’t we that bothered about civilians being killed by Putin in this war as we no longer have threads about it so do we just accept it now as Gaza has taken over?

It’s not a dig by at anyone by the way it’s a simple question?
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It's the way news works. They've moved on from Ukraine, and possibly the politicians will follow, reducing support. That's what Putin wants, hence his backing of trouble in Gaza etc. Deflect.
 
1966_and_all_that said:
I've largely stayed out of this albeit I've been tempted to take you up on some of your posts. You talk about other posters' naivety and yet you seem to believe that "it's a war Israel will win." I don't see anybody winning this war. This conflict has taken the irresolvable political, ethnic and religious issues in the Middle East to a higher and ever more dangerous level. When Israel reach the point of withdrawing its military from Gaza not one of the these issues will have been resolved. Many, many people will have died, livelihoods will have been lost, homes destroyed and the combatants' beliefs hardened. Iran will have become the host provider of arms to all anti-Israeli terrorist organisations in the area. Lebanon's stance against the Israeli occupation of the West Bank will have hardened. Nothing approaching a win for anyone will have come out of this.
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yes,that's some valid points. But it's a fact Hamas started this war, it's a fact Hamas wanted this war, it's a fact that an overwhelming majority of the people of Gaza support this war and so then it's reasonable to think that they knew that any response from Israel would sadly likely lead to heavy casualties, It's a fact that Hezbollah support this war, it's a fact that the Houthis in Yemen, so basically Yemen support this war, it's a fact that Iran back this war. So where does that leave us? As you rightly say, a massive escalation of the situation in the middle east. I'm sure you/we can agree on all that.

So where does that lead us to? I think that history tells us that what happened to the Jews in WW2 will never be allowed to happen again and so in that respect Israel will always be "protected" by the powers that be. So for want of a better expression it might not necessarily seen as a "win" for Israel are they likely to be any worse off? Whereas, the actions of Hamas on 7/10 have certainly made the situation in Gaza significantly worse.
 
Matesrates said:
Worrying comments by the military chairman of NATO, saying civilians in the west need to prepare for war with Russia.
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Within a decade apparantly, but that’s only guesswork and only a possibility.

Maybe it’s a bluff calling excercise to show Putin we accept it may happen and are prepared. Show no fear etc.

I think the best thing to do is never get hung up on these kind of reports in the media. Jack s*** we can do about it.
 
I see Israel have reported overnight that 21 of their soldiers (reservists) have been killed in a battle in Gaza.

And some on here wonder what’s left to bomb in the area.

Clearly Hamas are still fighting in large number and that’s why it’s still on going and yes sadly civilians are still being killed.
 
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There are hotspots everywhere at the moment and any one of them could escalate with potentially deadly consequences. Obviously, Israel/Hamas/Houthis/Hezbollah/Iran. Russia/Ukraine. China/Taiwan, and now experts are predicting that North Korea will go to war, other experts disagree of course, but the concern is that Kim Jong Un has stated that unification is no longer possible and reports are that he has taken down the peace arch.

What’s wrong with these people, haven’t any of them listened to John Lennons imagine.
 
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