Relaxed Christmas rules

It could be difficult to do it without creating different problems, I suppose. If you've booked a train to visit family I don't think you'd react well to being told you couldn't do it after all.

And it's hardly a free for all if people do as they are being asked. I realise that is a very big "if".
 
I can see limits being tightened. 6 adults, excluding grown up children who live with the adults. Only immediate family, no Aunts/Uncles unless they are/were in a SB with you. No significant partners unless they live with them. Once your bubble is made, no visitors beyond that.
 
I don't think that you can realistically stop people from visiting their families.
The problem that I have with the government's message is that it gives the impression that it is OK to mix and sort of ignore the rules for a few days. A lot of people don't need an excuse but this gives them that excuse. A better message would be to hold off, be disciplined and to have your Christmas at Easter or in the summer this year when it is safer. It seems particularly stupid given that the end may now be in sight with the vaccination programme. I expect the end of January will be some of the worst days in this pandemic and for there to be another national lockdown at this time.
Another aspect is that Xmas has been given special rules whereas other religious festivals had to suck it up. This will also lead to more rule breaking by some people who quite rightly may feel resentful.
Anyway it seems that a lot of scientists think that the government have sent the worng message but it is probably too late now. It would have been better to delay the announcement until it was clear what the situation is, it seems that it is currently worse than was expected and is getting worse as well.
 
straightatthewall said:
Should this 4 day free for all be scrapped?
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It depends if it is a free for all. There is a large element of people having to take on some responsibility for me. With my elderly relatives, we see it as not worth the risk, so we won't be looking beyond our existing household.

Some will flout even the 3 household mingling but that's their lookout. If they haven't got the message now they never will.
 
fcblackpool said:
I can see limits being tightened. 6 adults, excluding grown up children who live with the adults. Only immediate family, no Aunts/Uncles unless they are/were in a SB with you. No significant partners unless they live with them. Once your bubble is made, no visitors beyond that.
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I don't think that would achieve anything, if one person in a household is infected then odds are they all are so the important limit is the restriction on the number of households rather than the number of individuals.

Also those aunts and uncles are likely to be someones brother/sister, so I don't see how that would make sense.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I don't think that you can realistically stop people from visiting their families.
The problem that I have with the government's message is that it gives the impression that it is OK to mix and sort of ignore the rules for a few days. A lot of people don't need an excuse but this gives them that excuse. A better message would be to hold off, be disciplined and to have your Christmas at Easter or in the summer this year when it is safer. It seems particularly stupid given that the end may now be in sight with the vaccination programme. I expect the end of January will be some of the worst days in this pandemic and for there to be another national lockdown at this time.
Another aspect is that Xmas has been given special rules whereas other religious festivals had to suck it up. This will also lead to more rule breaking by some people who quite rightly may feel resentful.
Anyway it seems that a lot of scientists think that the government have sent the worng message but it is probably too late now. It would have been better to delay the announcement until it was clear what the situation is, it seems that it is currently worse than was expected and is getting worse as well.
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Good post

They'd have been better just turning a blind eye on Xmas Day whilst leaving the rules in place

Instead we have the Govt saying it's ok to mix for this five day period and then leaving it to the individual to conclude that isn't actually a good idea and self-regulate

And it's get it right it will then be ' well it was fine at Xmas so why not NY '
 
basilrobbie said:
It could be difficult to do it without creating different problems, I suppose. If you've booked a train to visit family I don't think you'd react well to being told you couldn't do it after all.

And it's hardly a free for all if people do as they are being asked. I realise that is a very big "if".
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Is that any different though to plans having to be changed when lockdown's were introduced or restrictions on foreign travel varied ?
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
Is that any different though to plans having to be changed when lockdown's were introduced or restrictions on foreign travel varied ?
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Yes....

1. The government has essentially committed to Christmas for some time.

2. People are fed up and CoVid weary... They need a break. There’s a significant risk that any attempt to curtail Christmas could spill over into public disorder (like we have seen in other parts of Europe)

3. Other EU countries have largely similar rules to us for Christmas. So it would be seen as unfair.

4. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to do it.
 
Wonder if the Government are going to take on board what the editors of the BMJ & HSJ have written saying, ‘ We believe the Government are going to blunder into another major error that will cost many lives, and if they fail to take swift and decisive action, they can no longer claim to be ‘protecting’ the NHS. The ‘5 days of Christmas’ definitely needs to be urgently reviewed.
 
It's nonsense. As has been said other holidays have been ignored - main example Diwali.

If you believe these restrictions have any validity there is no excuse for supporting relaxation over Xmas.

P s. Personally I'd relax permanently, we need to start living the new normal. 👍
 
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I think people will flaunt the rules in their droves whatever they decide to do. Damned if they do damned if they dont. As long as the south are ok then it will all be fine...northern businesses dont count and can be closed as long as needs be
 
I understand why they have done it, from a purely personal point of view it could be scrapped. I dunno from a containment point could they not make it say 2 days rather than 5?
 
1 day, 2 days or 5 days it won’t make a jot of difference to the number of cases or deaths. None whatsoever...
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
It’s absolutely debatable...and it has nothing at all to do with thanksgiving...that’s a complete red herring.
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On the basis that we now know virus transmission spreads more readily at household gatherings than in any other setting I really don't see how you can say that

See attached as a sample of the many articles linking Thanksgiving and increases in Covid transmission https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ing-covid-19-surge-is-here-what-to-expect-now

And for those who don't want to open the link here's a taster

Two weeks after Thanksgiving, the spike on COVID-19 tracking graphs in the United States is a straight line going in the wrong direction.

The number of new cases is up more than 20 percent from 2 weeks ago.

The number of hospitalizations has increased by 21 percent.

The number of deaths has jumped 39 percent, with the United States surpassing 3,000 deaths in 1 day for the first time.
 
We decided jointly today to cancel our “Xmas Bubble” get together on the 27th but for us it is not a difficult decision as,even though we are close to the relatives due to visit us,they are not immediate family like parents ( long deceased) or children( never had any),I am sure there will be many doing the same but for those who decide to go ahead I hope the vast majority will stick to the rules the government have adopted and stay safe for their and everyone’s benefit.

Mind you we Will miss them bringing AlphabeticZ with them ...was hoping to play for the first time😉
 
TwelveAngryMen said:
On the basis that we now know virus transmission spreads more readily at household gatherings than in any other setting I really don't see how you can say that

See attached as a sample of the many articles linking Thanksgiving and increases in Covid transmission https://www.healthline.com/health-n...ing-covid-19-surge-is-here-what-to-expect-now

And for those who don't want to open the link here's a taster

Two weeks after Thanksgiving, the spike on COVID-19 tracking graphs in the United States is a straight line going in the wrong direction.

The number of new cases is up more than 20 percent from 2 weeks ago.

The number of hospitalizations has increased by 21 percent.

The number of deaths has jumped 39 percent, with the United States surpassing 3,000 deaths in 1 day for the first time.
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The trajectory in the US was going up anyway... I’m not convinced that Thanksgiving has really added much to that in truth... Sounds like a convenient excuse for totally shit overall management of the virus, which days back all the way to March.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
1 day, 2 days or 5 days it won’t make a jot of difference to the number of cases or deaths. None whatsoever...
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,Not really sure how you actually say that with any certainty. Ok perhaps that is in your opinion?
I think it could well do.
 
deary said:
You cant really say that bifster, I guess it depends on your definition of many?
XMAS get togethers will unfortunately lead to an increase in transmission of the virus .
Will the result be more death? YES
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I can say that and I just have...

You’re correct that Xmas get togethers will result in more death (from Covid at least), but there’s a lot more to consider here...

For a start, it’s going to happen anyway... So attempts to micro-manage how people interact will make no difference.

Secondly, if you are essentially sticking to guidelines and maintaining a bubble, then the risk of meeting 1 day or 2 days is unlikely to be much different.

Thirdly, people aren’t, in the main, going to be meeting for all 5 of the days. They will much more likely meet for one or two days out of the five...It will just be a different two days for different families... So imho, you gain nothing at all by cutting the number of days down... Instead you just force everyone to choose the same two days.

Finally, If you did successfully isolate people with legislation at Christmas then suicide rates (already a huge issue this time of year) could increase dramatically.
 
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BFC_BFC_BFC said:
Yes....

1. The government has essentially committed to Christmas for some time.

2. People are fed up and CoVid weary... They need a break. There’s a significant risk that any attempt to curtail Christmas could spill over into public disorder (like we have seen in other parts of Europe)

3. Other EU countries have largely similar rules to us for Christmas. So it would be seen as unfair.

4. There’s absolutely no reason whatsoever to do it.
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With regard to 3, surely that's now irrelevant. Were a sovereign state who dont care what Europe does...
 
Wizaard said:
With regard to 3, surely that's now irrelevant. Were a sovereign state who dont care what Europe does...
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I don’t think you’ll ever get away from people drawing comparisons with their physical neighbours or even countries further afield. It’s human nature.
 
Whether the rules are changed or not people are going to do whatever they please I’m afraid, equally a lot of people will make their own judgement calls and apply common sense.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
You’re correct that Xmas get togethers will result in more death, but there’s a lot more to consider here...

For a start, it’s going to happen anyway... So attempts to micro-manage how people interact will make no difference.
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Most of what you said doesn't stand up to scrutiny but your comment above does make some sense.
Some countries are running media campaigns to encourage citizens to meet but to take the usual precautions.
 
tangerinenotorange said:
Most of what you said doesn't stand up to scrutiny but your comment above does make some sense.
However, some countries are running media campaigns to encourage citizens to meet but to take the usual precautions.
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Then scrutinise it properly instead of making an off the cuff comment and provide a proper supporting argument for your perspective.

I would absolutely advocate a strong Public Health message from the Government and I have said that from the outset. I am in full agreement with the rules as things stand, but I do think that it's important to back that up with sensible advice, though it needs to be done with care.
 
You simply can't Police it so they've had to do something.

999 There's a party going on next door and next door to that er and next you get the gist.

Most of the over 70's I've spoke to are playing it safe anyway.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I can say that and I just have...

You’re correct that Xmas get togethers will result in more death, but there’s a lot more to consider here...

For a start, it’s going to happen anyway... So attempts to micro-manage how people interact will make no difference.

Secondly, if you are essentially sticking to guidelines and maintaining a bubble, then the risk of meeting 1 day or 2 days is unlikely to be much different.

Thirdly, people aren’t, in the main, going to be meeting for all 5 of the days. They will much more likely meet for one or two days out of the five...It will just be a different two days for different families... So imho, you gain nothing at all by cutting the number of days down... Instead you just force everyone to choose the same two days.

Finally, If you did successfully isolate people with legislation at Christmas then suicide rates (already a huge issue this time of year) could increase dramatically.
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I see Gemany have gone down from a 7 day xmas relaxation to 3 so their experts must feel there is some benefit on reducing the time period?

You of course can say whatever you like 👍

You just seem very definite in your tone.

At the end of the day you are an overly opinionated middle aged man on a football forum

So apologies but Im really not sure that qualifies you any better than others on here as the all seeing eye on covid that you purport to be 🤣.
 
I can understand the governments dilemma; they’ve no doubt been advised by behavioural experts who probably told them that if you ban mixing at Christmas, people will do it anyway, so you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

The mistake was not adding that you’re allowed to, but please understand the dangers. It would be better if you left it until maybe Easter when hopefully millions will have been vaccinated.
 
Empire Builder, little gorgeous Gove, is meeting the leaders of the ‘Devolved’ nations at 5 this afternoon, re The Christmas bbbbbubble, so should know more later?
 
deary said:
I see Gemany have gone down from a 7 day xmas relaxation to 3 so their experts must feel there is some benefit on reducing the time period?

You of course can say whatever you like 👍

You just seem very definite in your tone.

At the end of the day you are nothing more than overly opinionated middle aged man on a football forum

So apologies but Im really not sure that qualifies you any better than others on here as the all seeing eye on covid that you purport to be 🤣.
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I'm absolutely certain that if the UK Government changed from 5 days to 2 that it wouldn;t make any difference.. The Germans had obviously gone a bit overboard to start off with, so from there perspective perhaps reining it in was sensible... Their rules were much different to ours originally though and didn't provide many of the protections ours do.

I'll ignore the personal bullshit...You clearly have personal insecurities.
 
BFC I get what you say about mismanaged response to pandemic and that at xmas people will do as they wish
However if it's just BS why are governments all over the world tightening restrictions at great social and economic cost.
Not having pop but interested in your theories
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm absolutely certain that if the UK Government changed from 5 days to 2 that it wouldn;t make any difference.. The Germans had obviously gone a bit overboard to start off with, so from there perspective perhaps reining it in was sensible... Their rules were much different to ours originally though and didn't provide many of the protections ours do.

I'll ignore the personal bullshit...You clearly have personal insecurities.
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It is impossible to be certain about things like that because you cannot run the reality twice with different conditions.

I would suggest, that reducing the days from 5 to 2 would have some effect on social mixing as some people do follow government advice. Less social mixing means less transmission. Less transmission means less hospital admission and less death. It would seem that the German government also think this is true.
 
Bisphamtang said:
BFC I get what you sat about mismanaged response to pandemic and that at xmas people will fo as they wish
However if it's just BS why are governments all over the world tightening restrictions at great social and economic cost.
Not having pop but interested in your theories
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The theory is simple... The Goverment can say whatever they like, but it won't change what people choose to do at Christmas... As far as I'm concerned people sit in one of two camps.

Camp 1 - They will do whatever they want at Christmas and the Government can fuck off

Camp 2 - They are acutely aware of the dangers of Covid and they will be keeping Christmas to a minimum (regadless of Government advice)
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
It is impossible to be certain about things like that because you cannot run the reality twice with different conditions.

I would suggest, that reducing the days from 5 to 2 would have some effect on social mixing as some people do follow government advice. Less social mixing means less transmission. Less transmission means less hospital admission and less death. It would seem that the German government also think this is true.
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Nah..

Reducing from 5 to 2 will have no effect at all....It's totally pointless...Pissing in the Wind.
 
It doesn't matter what the government say, families ARE going to meet at Christmas, so their option is either to keep some credibility by condoning the the reasonable actions of the populous, or lose it and open the door to mass disobedience.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'm absolutely certain that if the UK Government changed from 5 days to 2 that it wouldn;t make any difference.. The Germans had obviously gone a bit overboard to start off with, so from there perspective perhaps reining it in was sensible... Their rules were much different to ours originally though and didn't provide many of the protections ours do.

I'll ignore the personal bullshit...You clearly have personal insecurities.
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Ok but yes again you simply cannot be certain.
Apologies bifster if I came across personal, I suppose it was a response to your bombastic tone
Yes im sure I have insecurities, tbh I think all humans do & believe it or not that may even includes you . 👍
Peace x
 
The options Gove is reported to be discussing are:
Keeping the rules the same but toughening up the messaging

Reducing the number of days

Reducing the number of households that are allowed to mix

Still allowing travel but restricting it to the same region

Moving the window to another time

I’d guess the first will be the outcome, but it’s still going to be a disaster, third week in January we’ll be back in lockdown
 
deary said:
Ok but yes again you simply cannot be certain.
Apologies bifster if I came across personal, I suppose it was a response to your bombastic tone
Yes im sure I have insecurities, tbh I think all humans do & believe it or not that may even includes you . 👍
Peace x
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Of course I can be certain... I’m not asking you to be certain, but I am... 100%.

It’s fine...I’ve no problem with you strongly challenging my perspective, I am being forthright, I just don’t see where the personal stuff gets us.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
The theory is simple... The Goverment can say whatever they like, but it won't change what people choose to do at Christmas... As far as I'm concerned people sit in one of two camps.

Camp 1 - They will do whatever they want at Christmas and the Government can fuck off

Camp 2 - They are acutely aware of the dangers of Covid and they will be keeping Christmas to a minimum (regadless of Government advice)
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This isn't true in my experience

I know many people who follow government advice very closely regardless of whether it makes sense or not.
I also know some who try to behave reasonably but break the rules from time to time (most of us)
And there are a few I know, mainly young people, who ignore the rules and do as they please

I know that you are the Oracle on all things Covid but it is possible that the whole population of the Uk doesn't neatly fit into one of your two groups.
 
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