straightatthewall
Well-known member
Perhaps because some Americans (hard as it might be to believe) have the capability to only use necessary force even in extreme circumstances rather than spray bullets willy nilly.
You are correct but the gun problem in the USA will never ever go away. We have to deal with and control it.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
In the simplest terms I don’t believe the situation improves in the US or the U.K. by putting different and even extreme political opinion down to stupidity or ignorance.
That kind of attitude is dangerous and ignorant and it fails to acknowledge the kind of underlying issues that give rise to those opinions. It’s important to be more socially aware than that.
Dark_Side_of_the_Lune
Well-known member
I completely get what Robbie was posting about. I just feel he lets himself down when he starts to use terms like ‘Yanks’ rather than ‘Americans’ to describe a nation’s people. He needs to educate himself that those days are best left behind us. It wouldn’t be acceptable to refer to the French, Germans or Pakistani peoples by names belonging to different eras when racism was prevalent.
fcblackpool
Well-known member
He's of a certain vintage that thinks Alf Garnett speaks sense.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
It's also the kind of thinking that creates 'protest votes'. You can't approach a group who think differently to you, with the view that they're just stupid and I'll teach them what's right.
To put it in terms we all might feel more comfortable with, I thought it was obvious that the Oyston family were taking the club for a ride. The writer of the OP felt differently and warned many people many times to be 'careful what they wished for.' I could have thought his point of view was born out of stupidity, but I didn't. I tried to see things from his perspective and then show him why i believed he was wrong.
By the end of the situation, he was such a convert to my way of thinking, he was sat in a courtroom making notes for Uncle Tom Wobbly and all. Proof that you can make people change without patronising them or considering them 'a bit thick'.
1966_and_all_that
Well-known member
Several points:
1. Pence is a fool. He tied himself to the Trump sail but, thankfully, he and McConnell pulled away at the last minute. They deserve some credit for that.
2. The 25th won't happen. It's too late. I expect the senior military (and the Vice President) to have taken Trump out of reach of the nuclear codes.
3. Unfortunately, I don't see Trump being tried for any of his multiple-misdemeanors.
4. The new President, with Congress, need to handle the American public softly and surely. There's a helluva lot needs doing: BLM, regulating social media, Russia relations, NATO, Europe........etc.
B
basilrobbie
Guest
I don't think very many posters on this thread have much first-hand experience of what it is to live and work in Hicksville, North Dakota.
As for real understanding - I was brought up in Fleetwood, my first home was in The Garth. You make me sound like a member of the Bullingdon club.
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
Although you were the example at hand, I was making more of a general point as far as ‘ignorance’ was concerned.I don't think very many posters on this thread have much first-hand experience of what it is to live and work in Hicksville, North Dakota.
As for real understanding - I was brought up in Fleetwood, my first home was in The Garth. You make me sound like a member of the Bullingdon club.
Im sure it’s possible that had you spent your life working on Fleetwood Docks, perhaps your work and home life been negatively impacted by membership of the EU and perhaps suffered some of the less beneficial side of the benefits system that may have coloured your political perspective somewhat.
I just think it’s becoming a bit of a trend in this day and age to pass off any kind of opinion or political belief that we don’t agree with as ‘stupid’ or Ignorant...Many of the conspiracy theories rely on the premise that everyone else remains in ignorance, whilst the ‘believers’ are truly enlightened... Let’s not forget, that a significant portion of well educated Western Society still believe in a superhuman being in the sky
We need to do better than that IMO...To be willing to drag ourselves out of our own ignorance and try to gain a much better understanding of how we address the issues, beyond ‘helping the stupid people to be more like us...’
Lytham_fy8
Well-known member
It is now yeah.
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Pence and McConnell deserve no credit for pulling themselves away from Trump when it became obvious he'd lost both the election and the plot. That's just typical of parasites moving themselves to a new position in the hope that people forget and they continue to make good for themselves.
B
basilrobbie
Guest
That is in part one of the points I'm making. Neither side of the political spectrum has a monopoly on stupidity and I don't think I suggested that they did. What I AM saying is that Trump's core support comes disproportionately from a particular demographic who don't engage with and therefore mistrust mainstream sources of information.
I've picked this up from FiveThirtyEight over many months, I'm not theorising, particularly.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Half this board won't agree with you. They see Paki as an abbreviation on a par with Brit.
Mark_GT
Well-known member
The events of last night are going to really sting for the US. Letting a bunch of bizarrely attired protesters humiliate the nation by walking in the way they did. They now have a really difficult choice of how and to what extent they punish the perpetrators - all of which American style will be played out in the full glare of opinion. Not ideal when their natural enemies are laughing and when their people are dying in droves from Covid 19.
As I suggested last night, this could also very easily split the GOP in two. Not ideal when all the above has to be addressed.
As I suggested last night, this could also very easily split the GOP in two. Not ideal when all the above has to be addressed.
I bleed Tangerine
Well-known member
I think that the USA just gets more divided over the next few years. My reasoning for that is that in the US their news networks all seem to be just as bad as the loonatics on both sides. I saw CNN with a picture of a building burning and the headline, BLM protest remain peaceful and the yesterday saw a clip of FOX news saying that it was ANTIFA breaking into the capitol building not Trump protesters. Untill the news network stop lying about 'their' side and start reporting facts to both the left and right, I just think that the divide will grow because both side with stick to that narrative that they're right and everyone else is wrong.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
This is a very good point. The role of the media and social media in influencing the public is huge.
Why is it disgusting?
BFC_BFC_BFC
Well-known member
I think the lack of trust of mainstream media has just become ‘more of a thing’ generally over the past few years in particular. Both sides of the political divide tend to have their own versions of the truth.... Of course it’s clear that Trump has taken that to a new level.
It concerns me greatly tbh, especially as a parent trying to manage my own kids (now adults) and their response to the new ‘fake news’ era that we live in.
SATW mentioned a normally balanced mate of his getting caught up with the Qanon malarkey... I’ve even found myself getting sucked in at times.
There’s more to it than lack of education etc. and it’s a big issue that we need to get to grips with. The way I see it, if any individual (educated or otherwise) spends enough time being bombarded by the same media based propaganda then it does have a brainwashing effect...If you put that in the context of the States, where entire States are divided along political lines, then it’s not hard to see how two completely different versions of the same reality can develop.
It then becomes very difficult to break down..... It’s almost like an internal Iron Curtain type of situation...
20togo
Well-known member
Another disgraceful comment. Evidence to back it up?
Victorsponge
Well-known member
Cmon 20s you know Wizard is correct
straightatthewall
Well-known member
Indeed 20’s. I don’t know who this ‘Paki’ is, but if she’s even close on par with Brit Ekland in either The Whicker Man or Get Carter I’d be very surprised.
Wizaard
Well-known member
Been many a debate on here about it over the years.
20togo
Well-known member
Nope, not the point at all. You are suggesting half the board think it acceptable to use the racist term Paki. In effect accusing half the board of being racists. It really is one way street on here at times.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
I guess you get the street you deserve
20togo
Well-known member
Yep, half the board deserve to be called racists! Grow up.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
Thats a constructive response. Well done. And try not to get too angry eh ? It'll do you no good.
20togo
Well-known member
Not me that gets angry. Would suggest it's all those that continually moan about Brexit, all those that moan about the govt, all those that moan about Covid and the problems associated with it. Go and have a look at who starts all these threads. Would definitely say it's more on your side of the fence where the anger is.
Have a look at the BOJO announcement thread. And the positivity in it. Then realise who's missing from it because something positive leaves 'em frothing at the mouth.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
Everything's fine!Not me that gets angry. Would suggest it's all those that continually moan about Brexit, all those that moan about the govt, all those that moan about Covid and the problems associated with it. Go and have a look at who starts all these threads. Would definitely say it's more on your side of the fence where the anger is.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
Now that is a constructive response, you are getting the hang of this debating malarkey aren't you. Anyway, I tend to agree, there isn't much to celebrate about life today so people will naturally moan i guess. Its also a shame people like you put up fences, all that does is create divides. But then I guess that floats your boat.Not me that gets angry. Would suggest it's all those that continually moan about Brexit, all those that moan about the govt, all those that moan about Covid and the problems associated with it. Go and have a look at who starts all these threads. Would definitely say it's more on your side of the fence where the anger is.
Wizaard
Well-known member
You're quite the literalist aren't you? Clearly, when there are a few thousand registered, it won't be half, but there's no denying there is a cadre who argue that Paki is an abbreviation.
20togo
Well-known member
What fences have I put up. It's people like you with your hatefest that causes all the division. Not that you are anywhere near the chief protagonist. You still haven't got the courtesy to respond to the lengthy post I made in reply to your slur coming up with excuses about more important things. Maybe you have, but you still find plenty of time to post on here. .
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
We do seem to have our fair share of 'Little Englanders' on here nowhere near half though
Going back to the o/p, it's not obvious where the US goes from here because it's not obvious whether yesterday was the culmination of something or merely another step on the road to further national disunity.
Normally, with events like this after an election, you would expect to see the incoming leader talk about 'healing' and uniting the country but Biden has gone with words like 'sedition' and making a comparison against what might hypothetically happen if black people committed the same actions. As a general rule, when the ruling class talk about sedition it tends not to bring the dissenters onside and highlighting racial differences (perceived or otherwise) and potentially alienating the police just doesn't seem clever politics to me.
I think the US will split even more politically in the next few years which could accelerate if Biden doesn't see out his term and Harris is thrust into the Presidency by default.
Will we get to the point where some states will try to secede? Possibly, over time. In practice though that would have to be Texas to lead the way and it's unlikely in the near future. Secession is still illegal but laws can be changed and no political bloc stays the same for ever. Those who remember Peter Suddaby and Glyn James can also remember Leonid Brezhnev overseeing massive military marches in Red Square and I bet nobody thought then 'None of this will exist in less than 20 years time...'.
Personally, I can't pretend to be shocked or outraged by what happened. I didn't bother me that HongKongers stormed their legislature so I obviously don't have a principled objection on that type of action which means it really becomes an issue of 'was it justified?' and it's hard to find a valid excuse for that level of civil disobedience at this particular moment given that the margin of victory for Biden was relatively small and the legal processes have been thoroughly explored.
The senate win has given the Democrats the ability to actually achieve something and it seems obvious to me the next step is to look forward rather than back and recriminate. Whether they do that is another matter and will affect which way the US goes.
Normally, with events like this after an election, you would expect to see the incoming leader talk about 'healing' and uniting the country but Biden has gone with words like 'sedition' and making a comparison against what might hypothetically happen if black people committed the same actions. As a general rule, when the ruling class talk about sedition it tends not to bring the dissenters onside and highlighting racial differences (perceived or otherwise) and potentially alienating the police just doesn't seem clever politics to me.
I think the US will split even more politically in the next few years which could accelerate if Biden doesn't see out his term and Harris is thrust into the Presidency by default.
Will we get to the point where some states will try to secede? Possibly, over time. In practice though that would have to be Texas to lead the way and it's unlikely in the near future. Secession is still illegal but laws can be changed and no political bloc stays the same for ever. Those who remember Peter Suddaby and Glyn James can also remember Leonid Brezhnev overseeing massive military marches in Red Square and I bet nobody thought then 'None of this will exist in less than 20 years time...'.
Personally, I can't pretend to be shocked or outraged by what happened. I didn't bother me that HongKongers stormed their legislature so I obviously don't have a principled objection on that type of action which means it really becomes an issue of 'was it justified?' and it's hard to find a valid excuse for that level of civil disobedience at this particular moment given that the margin of victory for Biden was relatively small and the legal processes have been thoroughly explored.
The senate win has given the Democrats the ability to actually achieve something and it seems obvious to me the next step is to look forward rather than back and recriminate. Whether they do that is another matter and will affect which way the US goes.
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
Psst Pete, you can't say Little.....
20togo
Well-known member
Go then, show me any evidence in the last few years where any person has said it's an abbreviation which is acceptable.
SEASIDE2020
Well-known member
Seems a little bit strange Wiz that rather than agreeing with him, you chose to point out that some might disagree ?
It's almost as if your response was agenda driven ?
P
Plumbs
Guest
Good-great-post and you've caught some of the fundamental issues that brought Trump to power,rather than made a lazy swipe at it like the OP has done.
Its a similar position in the UK where our 'Texas' has probably been Scotland and where there has been a growing social and economic divide between the North and South,which came back to the fore with the lockdown measures.
In short if regions/states feel they are getting left behind then the reaction will be to vote in the Trumps, or take a parochial and insular approach like the City of Sunderland did on Brexit.
Its alright the OP harping on about the demographic of the the Trump support, but his election to the Presidency was brought about by ordinary folk feeling disadvantaged and marginalised. In some ways the protests yesterday reminded me of the poll tax demonstrations which led to the demise of Thatch, who was another who won a populist vote but failed to realise she wasnt infallible.
td53
Well-known member
Yesterday I was struck by a sense that it's not just about class and race or whatever the general consensus is. It's about being part of something, a spectacle. There's something performative about it all. Look at the absurd dress, the flags, the t shirts. It was very 'look mum, I'm on the news' and would, to be honest have been hilarious in a way if people hadn't died and at the same time, weirdly moving - all that anger...
I know a trump fan. He's an American guy who used to work with me in hotels years ago who i keep in touch with online - he's from a very well to do florida family not a rust belt worker or a hillbilly hick at all. He embraces the absurdity of trump, the fascinating rabbit holes of conspiracy. He smokes a lot of dope and is utterly convinced that there's a lot of things going on that I can't see and that Trump is speaking for him, speaking out on behalf of people like him when he refers to all the bizarre shit he does. He's typical, I think of quite a large part of Trumps base - he appeals to people who were perhaps previously apolitical. Corbyn did similar. Like him or not, Corbyn was quite successful in getting previously apolitical voters engaged. He statistically was, especially in 2017.
Trump hasn't really done an awful lot. Yes, he's made some small improvement to the lowest paid (he has made more impact than Obama did in that sense for said group), made some allusions about race, failed to distance himself from extremists and not really got very far with building a wall but the hitler parallel sort of falls down there. Hitler actually did an incredible amount. He made a terrible situation a lot better in the short term for many. The huge infrastructure projects, massive architecture projects changed the country massively.
Trump just seems to be a relentless purveyor of mischief and to possess an insatiable desire for attention. He's almost taking the piss out of the notion of the presidency. He's weirdly slightly reminiscent of some proper gobby crap punk, like a thick John Lydon in a suit - behaving the wrong way, doing the wrong thing and revelling in the fallout. He just hasn't got the attention span that Adolf had so to speak, nor the burning resentment of jewishness. He's not driven by the same things as a true fascist, but he'll flirt with fascists if he gets adulation. He's stoked fires of existing tensions but just because it's popular, not, I think, cos he's driven by a deep seated desire to cleanse the nation.
In that way, I do wonder if part of his appeal to the part of his base that *isn't* white supremacist nutjobs (74 million people aren't all KKK members) is simply that he pisses off the establishment, the know it alls, the experts and the boring. That it's basically more fun having trump in charge than some really boring man or woman who is going to lecture you to death ala Biden or Clinton. Who will be 'stable' and 'sensible' and nothing will change. Trump hasn't really changed anything in particular in terms of the material circumstances but he's evoked a sense that something is happening, he's incited a culture war that gives people a cause. It's an empty cause but it's a cause non the less. It's something that gives a purpose or a sense of belonging. It's tribal. Trump is sort of like a nightmarish Ronald Reagan, the same charisma but none of the charm and smooth talking classy surface. He's uncouth and like punk, he's not ashamed to show it, in fact and people love him for that.
In all of this, you have to remember, Trump is just a useful idiot. He's there to derail the drift away from oil and other big money interests unhappy with the changing nature of the economy in the US. He's been put there to renege on climate agreements and to build a movement that believes that it's in their interests to back him to the hilt, that believe he speak for them when really, he speaks for the vested interests that put him there. There's a putin-esque smokescreen thing going on as well - he spews out newsworthy stuff so often that no one knows what is going on and then 'fake news' amplifies that effect. The irony is, it's just one establishment vs another establishment (the new elite vs the old elite perhaps) and neither of them really give a fuck about the sort of people they say they do but at least trump spoke directly to people that were alienated. Yes, he spoke utter shit, but like in the UK, the American left has been obsessed with the middle classes for years and left a gaping hole for the right to fill.
If you ignore the problems of a country for decades and decades, if you fail to address the decline of industry and the resultant poverty and you simultaneously ratchet up the access for people to constantly see images of wealth, aspiration etc and allow a nation to live, armed to the teeth, always on the verge of the next shooting or violent attack, then eventually something is going to fall apart in terms of your image as the cradle of democracy and home of reason. America is the living embodiment of the absurdity of the modern era and it's fascinating but grotesque viewing at the moment.
I know a trump fan. He's an American guy who used to work with me in hotels years ago who i keep in touch with online - he's from a very well to do florida family not a rust belt worker or a hillbilly hick at all. He embraces the absurdity of trump, the fascinating rabbit holes of conspiracy. He smokes a lot of dope and is utterly convinced that there's a lot of things going on that I can't see and that Trump is speaking for him, speaking out on behalf of people like him when he refers to all the bizarre shit he does. He's typical, I think of quite a large part of Trumps base - he appeals to people who were perhaps previously apolitical. Corbyn did similar. Like him or not, Corbyn was quite successful in getting previously apolitical voters engaged. He statistically was, especially in 2017.
Trump hasn't really done an awful lot. Yes, he's made some small improvement to the lowest paid (he has made more impact than Obama did in that sense for said group), made some allusions about race, failed to distance himself from extremists and not really got very far with building a wall but the hitler parallel sort of falls down there. Hitler actually did an incredible amount. He made a terrible situation a lot better in the short term for many. The huge infrastructure projects, massive architecture projects changed the country massively.
Trump just seems to be a relentless purveyor of mischief and to possess an insatiable desire for attention. He's almost taking the piss out of the notion of the presidency. He's weirdly slightly reminiscent of some proper gobby crap punk, like a thick John Lydon in a suit - behaving the wrong way, doing the wrong thing and revelling in the fallout. He just hasn't got the attention span that Adolf had so to speak, nor the burning resentment of jewishness. He's not driven by the same things as a true fascist, but he'll flirt with fascists if he gets adulation. He's stoked fires of existing tensions but just because it's popular, not, I think, cos he's driven by a deep seated desire to cleanse the nation.
In that way, I do wonder if part of his appeal to the part of his base that *isn't* white supremacist nutjobs (74 million people aren't all KKK members) is simply that he pisses off the establishment, the know it alls, the experts and the boring. That it's basically more fun having trump in charge than some really boring man or woman who is going to lecture you to death ala Biden or Clinton. Who will be 'stable' and 'sensible' and nothing will change. Trump hasn't really changed anything in particular in terms of the material circumstances but he's evoked a sense that something is happening, he's incited a culture war that gives people a cause. It's an empty cause but it's a cause non the less. It's something that gives a purpose or a sense of belonging. It's tribal. Trump is sort of like a nightmarish Ronald Reagan, the same charisma but none of the charm and smooth talking classy surface. He's uncouth and like punk, he's not ashamed to show it, in fact and people love him for that.
In all of this, you have to remember, Trump is just a useful idiot. He's there to derail the drift away from oil and other big money interests unhappy with the changing nature of the economy in the US. He's been put there to renege on climate agreements and to build a movement that believes that it's in their interests to back him to the hilt, that believe he speak for them when really, he speaks for the vested interests that put him there. There's a putin-esque smokescreen thing going on as well - he spews out newsworthy stuff so often that no one knows what is going on and then 'fake news' amplifies that effect. The irony is, it's just one establishment vs another establishment (the new elite vs the old elite perhaps) and neither of them really give a fuck about the sort of people they say they do but at least trump spoke directly to people that were alienated. Yes, he spoke utter shit, but like in the UK, the American left has been obsessed with the middle classes for years and left a gaping hole for the right to fill.
If you ignore the problems of a country for decades and decades, if you fail to address the decline of industry and the resultant poverty and you simultaneously ratchet up the access for people to constantly see images of wealth, aspiration etc and allow a nation to live, armed to the teeth, always on the verge of the next shooting or violent attack, then eventually something is going to fall apart in terms of your image as the cradle of democracy and home of reason. America is the living embodiment of the absurdity of the modern era and it's fascinating but grotesque viewing at the moment.
P
Plumbs
Guest
He's one of the Yorkie Seasiders. Presumably they sit around eating chunky chocolate bars all day long (smiley)
P
Plumbs
Guest
Yup-nailed it
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
I must say you have a remarkable way with words mate. Whether it's describing the latest Pool game or commenting on worlds events, I toff my cap. And please keep it coming,
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
He does but I love some of that piece and hate some of it too. His last sentence is spot on though.
Victorsponge
Well-known member
You doff your cap mate
Hertsseasider
Well-known member
20togo
Well-known member
Just dealing with part of your post I think the American way with regards to elections has been about the razamataz of it all for as long as I can remember. And it's not a pretty sight. Sadly, that seems to be the way it's going over here too. All about the show not the substance.
20togo
Well-known member
Indeed he does. Right at top with his informative well balanced posts/blogs on whatever subject.
hertfordseasider
Well-known member
They just don’t get it do they Mark? We are the elite down here. BASIL has always been the poshest supporters group, just like them ferret fancying yarkie Seasiders are the peasants of our supporters group. Why do you think we goat all those free tickets for the 2010 play off final and all those freebies in the PL! We even have people who live on the Fylde coast trying infiltrate our group, but unless they are particularly small, pastel polo shirt wearers they won’t be able to sneak in unnoticed. “Doff our caps” how vulgar!No we are all Toff's down here
td53
Well-known member
Yeah, that worries me. I watched or listened to something a while ago that compared political debate then and now. It highlighted a debate in the 70s (I think it might have been about the EEC) and it was unreal how they got into serious debate on primetime TV - they even extended the show as the debate got so in depth. It was what politics should be, really putting two differing views to the test.
Now we've got just soundbites and slogans and it's whose got the best Dominic Cummings wins. Alisair Campbell was the best Dominic Cummings before Cummings was.
They say don't they, something like Trump is the twitter president, the short attention span president. I don't know if that's true or not but it certainly feels like it's harder to imagine a serious figure who isn't very telegenic as a leader anymore. Like him or not, I'm sure part of the reason people hated Brown was because he wasn't very quick off the mark, a bit grumpy and had a wonky eye. Look at how Theresa May was dealt with in a similar way. Both of them were genuinely very competent as 'politicians' in general, held high office and responsibility for a long time before being leader but got a right kicking for not being able to put on 'a show'
td53
Well-known member
It's a rambling mess of me trying to get my head round stuff I think. I'm not convinced by it all either. I think the tldr version or more coherent version now I've spouted a load of crap, might be - America has bred nihilists, some are racist, some are just pure nihilists and some are just bored/disenchanted people seeking a cause, which people will do when bored/disenchanted. People flock to a circus so to speak. Trump has reflected that nihilism cynically for his own gain - at the same time, a lot of the fury aimed at Trump, whilst cathartic (and he certainly deserves considerable ire and condemning to history on a page marked 'rubbish people') misses the point that Trump isn't responsible for so much that is wrong, nor did he generate that nihilism magically sometime around late 2015. He just harnessed it.
coppiceman
Well-known member
Think you are being very charitable to Trump there. He's tried to undermine the democracy while still in charge. I can't think of anywhere else where that has happened in modern times. Think Robbie is right in the way he describes some of the people who support him. Big question for me is who leads the free world because America doesn't look like they can and Biden needs time to sort it out.