so what do the Yanks do next?

BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I'd go back to Nazi Germany again..... Would you not say that there were plenty of well educated and intelligent individuals who both supported the Government and who were motivated to act in pretty horrific ways on behalf of? There are plenty of different examples in modern times too, where seemingly educated / intelligent individuals promote some pretty abhorrent ideas. A great many University Students often become involved in fringe political movements as another example..

So, I'm not sure.... It's possible that, in some circumstances, being more educated might even lead to involvement in less than noble causes... Eugenics being one example perhaps?

On the Human Empathy front, I'm not so sure... I've had experience with people who are extremely empathetic until it comes to a specific brand of politucal opponent (I'm think here of some of my Green Hippy Dippy type friends)....All love peace etc. One minute and then "Kill the Tory bastard" the next. You might say empathy, tolerance etc. etc.., but then I'd go back to the Nazi thing.... People are somehow motivated to act outside of their normal character.. SATW's post the other day about his mate struck a chord as I have witnessed a number of intelligent, normal, empatheic mates, come out with some right old tripe during this pandemic... In fact I closed my Facebook account because of the utter shyte that seemingly passed for reality in some people's eyes..

So I think the underlying drivers are complicated... A combination of different factors and perhaps a kind of critical mass is achieved whereby some kind of mob mentality develops...

It's hard to try and pinpoint exactly what is going on with Trump himself on anything other than a fairly superficial level.... He's clearly got some very deep rooted issues, personal insecurites etc.. which manifest themselves in such a destructive way.. Not just for others, but for himself...

So after that bit of rambling nonsense, the short answer is probably.... I really don't know.... I think it's very complicated
Click to expand...

I think psychopathy and empathy exists in all of us. To take your Nazi example though, the origins for that go all the way back to the political settlement at the end of WW1. Out of that humiliation and economic hardship grew political extremism. I don't think it is more than tangentially analogous to the USA now, but I can see why you keep returning to it in looking for answers as to why and how they got to where they are.

In Germany, I would say the main driver was a desire to take back what they thought was rightfully theirs, and which had been denied to them by dark forces. The Jews were a convenient proxy for those forces. In the case of the US, from the point of view of Trump's base this is as much about preserving what we have, as much as it is about wanting something more or different. They wouldn't get so ** precious about BLM if that were not the case. Or feel so threatened by an emerging black professional class.

You are right too, when you say that we all have our blind spots where rationality can fly out of the window, no matter how "intelligent" we are. if that wasn't true, then as a species we wouldn't waste the colossal amount of time we do in fighting with and killing one another.

Where Germany of the 1930s and the USA 2016-20 are very similar is in the contempt for the rule of law (and the institutions that underpin it) that drives it. Once you start down that route, people quickly lose respect for everything, including their own moral worth. Especially if it is the people at the top of the social hierarchy who are setting that kind of tone.

I do hope that the Americans find a way to jail Trump, and to disgrace him and his legacy in the process. Augean stables, and all that.
 
basilrobbie said:
I think psychopathy and empathy exists in all of us. To take your Nazi example though, the origins for that go all the way back to the political settlement at the end of WW1. Out of that humiliation and economic hardship grew political extremism. I don't think it is more than tangentially analogous to the USA now, but I can see why you keep returning to it in looking for answers as to why and how they got to where they are.

In Germany, I would say the main driver was a desire to take back what they thought was rightfully theirs, and which had been denied to them by dark forces. The Jews were a convenient proxy for those forces. In the case of the US, from the point of view of Trump's base this is as much about preserving what we have, as much as it is about wanting something more or different. They wouldn't get so ** precious about BLM if that were not the case. Or feel so threatened by an emerging black professional class.

You are right too, when you say that we all have our blind spots where rationality can fly out of the window, no matter how "intelligent" we are. if that wasn't true, then as a species we wouldn't waste the colossal amount of time we do in fighting with and killing one another.

Where Germany of the 1930s and the USA 2016-20 are very similar is in the contempt for the rule of law (and the institutions that underpin it) that drives it. Once you start down that route, people quickly lose respect for everything, including their own moral worth. Especially if it is the people at the top of the social hierarchy who are setting that kind of tone.

I do hope that the Americans find a way to jail Trump, and to disgrace him and his legacy in the process. Augean stables, and all that.
Click to expand...
The reason I chhose the Nazi example is really just because it is probably the most 'extreme' example of where a political idealogy has led to... At least in terms of modern history. To that extent it gives us a fairly stark reminder of the types of attrocities that individuals can be driven to commit and an ideology that individuals are prepared to follow, regardless of their level of intellect or education.

So that historical lesson gives us a hint, at least, that there is more to this.... There's no reason to imagine that the next 'Nazi Germany' would evolve for exactly the same reasons or in the same way that it did last time. If there was a way of predicting these things with such accuracy, then they probably wouldn't ever happen in the first place...

I don't think it's particularly difficult to imagine how a US under the ongoing leadership of Trump might have developed in that way either... Further isolationist policies leading to increase frustration/ criticism from friends and allies, leading to further US nationalism / isolationalism. The threat of significant economic competition etc.. The Trump character certainly had the potential to go down a pretty dark alley.. It's just whether people would have followed him.

Not sure if you have ever watched the "You've been Trumped Documentary"..??
 
Just seen this posted by a former US air force and commercial pilot. Not his words but he felt they were important to share. I know this guy, he's a decent bloke with an English wife. I find it hard to understand why they both support Trump, but they do. Maybe this explains some of the confusion 'normal' Americans are feeling right now. A mixed bag. Don't shoot the messenger.

“This morning, I realized that everything is about to change. No matter how I vote, no matter what I say, lives are never going to be the same.
I have been confused by the hostility of family and friends. I look at people I have known all my life so hate-filled that they agree with opinions they would never express as their own. I think that I may well have entered the Twilight Zone.
You can't justify this insanity. We have become a nation that has lost its collective mind.
We see other countries going Socialist and collapsing, but it seems like a great plan to us.
Somehow it’s un-American for the census to count how many Americans are in America.
People who say there is no such thing as gender are demanding a female President.
Universities that advocate equality, discriminate against Asian-Americans in favor of African-Americans.
Some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, and other people are not held responsible for what they are doing right now.
Criminals are caught-and-released to hurt more people, but stopping them is bad because it's a violation of THEIR rights.
People who have never owned slaves should pay slavery reparations to people who have never been slaves.
People who have never been to college should pay the debts of college students who took out huge loans for their degrees.
Immigrants with tuberculosis and polio are welcome, but you’d better be able to prove your dog is vaccinated.
Irish doctors and German engineers who want to immigrate to the US must go through a rigorous vetting process, but any illiterate gang-bangers who jump the southern fence are welcomed.
$5 billion for border security is too expensive, but $1.5 trillion for “free” health care is not.
If you cheat to get into college you go to prison, but if you cheat to get into the country you go to college for free.
And, pointing out all this hypocrisy somehow makes us "racists"!
Nothing makes sense anymore, no values, no morals, no civility and people are dying of a Chinese virus, but it is racist to refer to it as Chinese even though it began in China.
We are clearly living in an upside-down world where right is wrong and wrong is right, where moral is immoral and immoral is moral, where good is evil and evil is good, where killing murderers is wrong, but killing innocent babies is right.
Wake up America. The great unsinkable ship Titanic America has hit an iceberg, is taking on water and sinking fast.

Copied and pasted.
 
Loco said:
Just seen this posted by a former US air force and commercial pilot. Not his words but he felt they were important to share. I know this guy, he's a decent bloke with an English wife. I find it hard to understand why they both support Trump, but they do. Maybe this explains some of the confusion 'normal' Americans are feeling right now. A mixed bag. Don't shoot the messenger.

“This morning, I realized that everything is about to change. No matter how I vote, no matter what I say, lives are never going to be the same.
I have been confused by the hostility of family and friends. I look at people I have known all my life so hate-filled that they agree with opinions they would never express as their own. I think that I may well have entered the Twilight Zone.
You can't justify this insanity. We have become a nation that has lost its collective mind.
We see other countries going Socialist and collapsing, but it seems like a great plan to us.
Somehow it’s un-American for the census to count how many Americans are in America.
People who say there is no such thing as gender are demanding a female President.
Universities that advocate equality, discriminate against Asian-Americans in favor of African-Americans.
Some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, and other people are not held responsible for what they are doing right now.
Criminals are caught-and-released to hurt more people, but stopping them is bad because it's a violation of THEIR rights.
People who have never owned slaves should pay slavery reparations to people who have never been slaves.
People who have never been to college should pay the debts of college students who took out huge loans for their degrees.
Immigrants with tuberculosis and polio are welcome, but you’d better be able to prove your dog is vaccinated.
Irish doctors and German engineers who want to immigrate to the US must go through a rigorous vetting process, but any illiterate gang-bangers who jump the southern fence are welcomed.
$5 billion for border security is too expensive, but $1.5 trillion for “free” health care is not.
If you cheat to get into college you go to prison, but if you cheat to get into the country you go to college for free.
And, pointing out all this hypocrisy somehow makes us "racists"!
Nothing makes sense anymore, no values, no morals, no civility and people are dying of a Chinese virus, but it is racist to refer to it as Chinese even though it began in China.
We are clearly living in an upside-down world where right is wrong and wrong is right, where moral is immoral and immoral is moral, where good is evil and evil is good, where killing murderers is wrong, but killing innocent babies is right.
Wake up America. The great unsinkable ship Titanic America has hit an iceberg, is taking on water and sinking fast.

Copied and pasted.
Click to expand...
For America read UK. I wish I had originated that as it reflects my own sentiments perfectly!
 
Loco said:
Just seen this posted by a former US air force and commercial pilot. Not his words but he felt they were important to share. I know this guy, he's a decent bloke with an English wife. I find it hard to understand why they both support Trump, but they do. Maybe this explains some of the confusion 'normal' Americans are feeling right now. A mixed bag. Don't shoot the messenger.

“This morning, I realized that everything is about to change. No matter how I vote, no matter what I say, lives are never going to be the same.
I have been confused by the hostility of family and friends. I look at people I have known all my life so hate-filled that they agree with opinions they would never express as their own. I think that I may well have entered the Twilight Zone.
You can't justify this insanity. We have become a nation that has lost its collective mind.
We see other countries going Socialist and collapsing, but it seems like a great plan to us.
Somehow it’s un-American for the census to count how many Americans are in America.
People who say there is no such thing as gender are demanding a female President.
Universities that advocate equality, discriminate against Asian-Americans in favor of African-Americans.
Some people are held responsible for things that happened before they were born, and other people are not held responsible for what they are doing right now.
Criminals are caught-and-released to hurt more people, but stopping them is bad because it's a violation of THEIR rights.
People who have never owned slaves should pay slavery reparations to people who have never been slaves.
People who have never been to college should pay the debts of college students who took out huge loans for their degrees.
Immigrants with tuberculosis and polio are welcome, but you’d better be able to prove your dog is vaccinated.
Irish doctors and German engineers who want to immigrate to the US must go through a rigorous vetting process, but any illiterate gang-bangers who jump the southern fence are welcomed.
$5 billion for border security is too expensive, but $1.5 trillion for “free” health care is not.
If you cheat to get into college you go to prison, but if you cheat to get into the country you go to college for free.
And, pointing out all this hypocrisy somehow makes us "racists"!
Nothing makes sense anymore, no values, no morals, no civility and people are dying of a Chinese virus, but it is racist to refer to it as Chinese even though it began in China.
We are clearly living in an upside-down world where right is wrong and wrong is right, where moral is immoral and immoral is moral, where good is evil and evil is good, where killing murderers is wrong, but killing innocent babies is right.
Wake up America. The great unsinkable ship Titanic America has hit an iceberg, is taking on water and sinking fast.

Copied and pasted.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure how you even start a conversation with someone who believes most of that and lives with that level of hate. And I’m sure they do genuinely believe it, and clearly are full of hate as a result. The problem seems to be that they’ve started with a grain of truth and then spun a whole fantasy narrative out of it.

Bonkers. And very sad.
 
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Mexboroseasider said:
I’m not sure how you even start a conversation with someone who believes most of that and lives with that level of hate. And I’m sure they do genuinely believe it, and clearly are full of hate as a result. The problem seems to be that they’ve started with a grain of truth and then spun a whole fantasy narrative out of it.

Bonkers. And very sad.
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I attempted to start a reply and respond to each point, but then just decided it was pointless. Yes, there are a small number of semi-valid references amongst the racism, bigotry, misogyny and fairly obvious Political bias, but it doesn’t merit serious response.

I mean when you start be making a serious reference to ‘Socialism’ in relation to any flavour of US Politics, you’re clearly pretty damned far to the right!!
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I attempted to start a reply and respond to each point, but then just decided it was pointless. Yes, there are a small number of semi-valid references amongst the racism, bigotry, misogyny and fairly obvious Political bias, but it doesn’t merit serious response.

I mean when you start be making a serious reference to ‘Socialism’ in relation to any flavour of US Politics, you’re clearly pretty damned far to the right!!
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Yeah I though about doing the same (answering each complaint in turn) but then thought “what’s the point”? Anyone with a half open mind can manage it.

And yes - the crackers idea that Biden is trying to introduce socialism into the US.

The bottom line is that the demographics in the US are changing and some communities are struggling to accept they have to share their country and some power with other communities. It’s called equality.
 
Robbie, you have certainly caused a bit if a stir with your o/p. Indeed one might think that you have been taking lessons from Mr Trump, especially with the last paragraph
 
straightatthewall said:
It's also the kind of thinking that creates 'protest votes'. You can't approach a group who think differently to you, with the view that they're just stupid and I'll teach them what's right.

To put it in terms we all might feel more comfortable with, I thought it was obvious that the Oyston family were taking the club for a ride. The writer of the OP felt differently and warned many people many times to be 'careful what they wished for.' I could have thought his point of view was born out of stupidity, but I didn't. I tried to see things from his perspective and then show him why i believed he was wrong.

By the end of the situation, he was such a convert to my way of thinking, he was sat in a courtroom making notes for Uncle Tom Wobbly and all. Proof that you can make people change without patronising them or considering them 'a bit thick'. 👍
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There's a few on here who were still staunch supporters of the Oystons when the rest of the world could see the damage they were doing. And then have the gall to think people are stupid because they didn't vote for Corbyn. The mind boggles
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
Completely agree with this. It sort of feels like head patting, don't think too much and don't try too hard to better yourself, we'll sort it for you from the left developing a type of dependency. I feel like I have seen this.
Click to expand...
Excellent reply to a very good point made by TD53. Reading threads on here I always get the impression that the extreme left, and let's not kid ourselves, there are some extreme left posters on here who seem to think they've got the sole rights to the moral ground. Another reason why it turns voters off and away from them.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I attempted to start a reply and respond to each point, but then just decided it was pointless. Yes, there are a small number of semi-valid references amongst the racism, bigotry, misogyny and fairly obvious Political bias, but it doesn’t merit serious response.

I mean when you start be making a serious reference to ‘Socialism’ in relation to any flavour of US Politics, you’re clearly pretty damned far to the right!!
Click to expand...
I posted this to show the mindset of many Americans we would find to be outwith Robbie's suggested demographic. There is a huge cultural difference between the US and the UK and I think we sometimes fail to take that into account when looking at their politics. It really is head-shaking.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m not sure how you even start a conversation with someone who believes most of that and lives with that level of hate. And I’m sure they do genuinely believe it, and clearly are full of hate as a result. The problem seems to be that they’ve started with a grain of truth and then spun a whole fantasy narrative out of it.

Bonkers. And very sad.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure full of hate is true in the case of the person who posted this. I think they see things as an attack on who they are, their values and what they think their country stands for. It's almost as if they are lost and can't make sense of where they are. Biden has a tough job on his hands. Let's hope he succeeds in bringing people together.
 
bfcpete said:
Robbie, you have certainly caused a bit if a stir with your o/p. Indeed one might think that you have been taking lessons from Mr Trump, especially with the last paragraph
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Are you referring to the fact Trump has been caught out complaining that the protesters shown on TV were “low class”?
 
Loco said:
I'm not sure full of hate is true in the case of the person who posted this. I think they see things as an attack on who they are, their values and what they think their country stands for. It's almost as if they are lost and can't make sense of where they are. Biden has a tough job on his hands. Let's hope he succeeds in bringing people together.
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Well you know them and I don’t, and you can get a different impression from the printed word than you get when you meet someone, but there seemed to be a lot of anger/hate in what they were saying. I certainly agree they see things as an attack on their values. I think what I’m questioning is whether the “things” they are seeing are real or imagined.

As has been said, it’d be pretty easy to debunk each of their points in turn but when they are that far down the rabbit hole it will almost certainly fall on deaf ears.
 
Loco said:
I posted this to show the mindset of many Americans we would find to be outwith Robbie's suggested demographic. There is a huge cultural difference between the US and the UK and I think we sometimes fail to take that into account when looking at their politics. It really is head-shaking.
Click to expand...
I’m not so sure... I think we would expect to see pretty much the same kind of message in the U.K.. In fact, before I closed my account, my Facebook feed would regularly throw up Memes from people in the U.K. along similar lines.

These things are generally targeted at social media and the messaging is designed by those with extreme right wing views... read perhaps EDL types in the U.K... but I found that people I considered fairly moderate might share them.... Although I have to agree with Robbie on this point... the ones sharing those kind of messages typically would not be the kind of individuals at the top of the academic tree TBF.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
I’m not so sure... I think we would expect to see pretty much the same kind of message in the U.K.. In fact, before I closed my account, my Facebook feed would regularly throw up Memes from people in the U.K. along similar lines.

These things are generally targeted at social media and the messaging is designed by those with extreme right wing views... read perhaps EDL types in the U.K... but I found that people I considered fairly moderate might share them.... Although I have to agree with Robbie on this point... the ones sharing those kind of messages typically would not be the kind of individuals at the top of the academic tree TBF.
Click to expand...
Most Americans I know or have worked with are at the top of that tree. More than I would expect have pretty extreme right wing views when looked at from our perspective. The role of the state in normal life is not seen as a given like it is here.
 
Loco said:
Most Americans I know or have worked with are at the top of that tree. More than I would expect have pretty extreme right wing views when looked at from our perspective. The role of the state in normal life is not seen as a given like it is here.
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What are the backgrounds of the people that you are taking about?
 
Robbie, this not a go at you i have agreed with a lot of what you have said in the past but i must take issue with your last paragraph. I do not feel we can address such serious problems if we adhere to stereotypes and concentrating on only specific matters. I do not doubt that ignorance can be found within the communities you speak of but to make the statement that you do is simply not right. People from all backgrounds desperately care. It has been my experience that ignorance and those willing to manipulate the ignorant comes in different backgrounds and packages. The far right are evil but so are the far left. Look at the anti-semitism within the Labour party, institutional racism that raged within the party ably assisted by the unwillingness of the deeply flawed Corbyn, Abbott etc to do anything about it. I could give numerous other examples of ignorance from others but its all yesterdays news. I know the thread relates to the States and Trump and what has been happening but i do not believe that all those who voted him in office come from one background, that is too simplistic and smacks of victim blaming ( there has been some wonderful stuff on this in the thread already) Years ago Trump would have got nowhere near being president but for far too long the western world has had weak leaders unwilling to listen to its people, except those whom shout loudest. I would not vote for him but clearly many did and there is simply no evidence that they all came from the background you refer to.
 
Loco said:
I posted this to show the mindset of many Americans we would find to be outwith Robbie's suggested demographic. There is a huge cultural difference between the US and the UK and I think we sometimes fail to take that into account when looking at their politics. It really is head-shaking.
Click to expand...
Because of the reference to the 'special relationship' and a shared language, there's an assumption that our two countries are similar. Add on music, food etc and you'd think we'd have a lot in common.

But we don't. Politically, there is no comparison between their two parties and ours. The sooner we get round to seeing them as completely alien in terms of how they think and behave, it might make more sense.

They don't get us and we don't get them. End of.
 
Loco said:
Various backgrounds but university educated. I don't know about all their lives in detail. Not all are extreme right wing. Many are very anti-Trump.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it’s uncommon to be educated and right wing and even extremely right wing. In fact, like you, I’ve worked with plenty of people who are very well educated and intelligent, but hold very right wing views.

I’m just not sure that anyone who is educated (at least in some degree of history and political context) would refer to the Democrats as Socialists.... Unless Noam Chomsky has taken over as leader, whilst I wasn’t looking.

I can relate to some of the concerns in respect of equality of opportunity for college / university students. Though I also recognise that it may be necessary to go through a period of time where a certain amount of reparation my be needed in order to redress historical imbalance.
 
basilrobbie said:
I think psychopathy and empathy exists in all of us. To take your Nazi example though, the origins for that go all the way back to the political settlement at the end of WW1. Out of that humiliation and economic hardship grew political extremism. I don't think it is more than tangentially analogous to the USA now, but I can see why you keep returning to it in looking for answers as to why and how they got to where they are.

In Germany, I would say the main driver was a desire to take back what they thought was rightfully theirs, and which had been denied to them by dark forces. The Jews were a convenient proxy for those forces. In the case of the US, from the point of view of Trump's base this is as much about preserving what we have, as much as it is about wanting something more or different. They wouldn't get so ** precious about BLM if that were not the case. Or feel so threatened by an emerging black professional class.

You are right too, when you say that we all have our blind spots where rationality can fly out of the window, no matter how "intelligent" we are. if that wasn't true, then as a species we wouldn't waste the colossal amount of time we do in fighting with and killing one another.

Where Germany of the 1930s and the USA 2016-20 are very similar is in the contempt for the rule of law (and the institutions that underpin it) that drives it. Once you start down that route, people quickly lose respect for everything, including their own moral worth. Especially if it is the people at the top of the social hierarchy who are setting that kind of tone.

I do hope that the Americans find a way to jail Trump, and to disgrace him and his legacy in the process. Augean stables, and all that.
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The second paragraph relating to Germans wanting to take back what they perceived was rightfully theirs does have parallels with the US today,

The right appear to believe they are the self anointed white saviours (and they are mostly white) and the real patriots who need to rise and take the country back, nothing could be further from the truth of course and their deluded belief has crossed the Atlantic to some degree.
 
Lytham_fy8 said:
The second paragraph relating to Germans wanting to take back what they perceived was rightfully theirs does have parallels with the US today,

The right appear to believe they are the self anointed white saviours (and they are mostly white) and the real patriots who need to rise and take the country back, nothing could be further from the truth of course and their deluded belief has crossed the Atlantic to some degree.
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There's more than a grain of truth in that Lytham. And on the left there are some who believe they have the monopoly on the morale high ground and all on the right are stupid. There's more than a grain of truth in that as well.
So it's no surprise that things have become a bit heated and divided. Here as well as the USA.
 
RUSTY_2_STANDS said:
There's more than a grain of truth in that Lytham. And on the left there are some who believe they have the monopoly on the morale high ground and all on the right are stupid. There's more than a grain of truth in that as well.
So it's no surprise that things have become a bit heated and divided. Here as well as the USA.
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Nothing will ever change the mind of a zealot of any persuasion. If someone on 'their' side says something absolutely ludicrous, they'll go along with it. The whole baby eating Satanic paedophile network running things in Wahington is clearly stupid but it got plenty of traction because of the implicit approval from Trump through his approval of QAnon material.

Similarly, just to give it some balance, there was a Messianistic element to Corbyn's support at times.

We need to get away from the cult of personality on both sides of the Atlantic and revert to policy led debate instead of what we have now, where it's a glorified Prom pageant to pick the most popular person.
 
BFC_BFC_BFC said:
In the simplest terms I don’t believe the situation improves in the US or the U.K. by putting different and even extreme political opinion down to stupidity or ignorance.

That kind of attitude is dangerous and ignorant and it fails to acknowledge the kind of underlying issues that give rise to those opinions. It’s important to be more socially aware than that.
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Agreed. However, why not broaden the discussion to include issues of poor education? Surely lack of access to education is a major factor that cannot be ignored, or it won't be addressed and 'solved'.

This is a good thread, some good opinion from all, but there seems to be a desperate will to shut opinion down where is doesn't suit people's agenda.
 
Mexboroseasider said:
I’m not sure how you even start a conversation with someone who believes most of that and lives with that level of hate. And I’m sure they do genuinely believe it, and clearly are full of hate as a result. The problem seems to be that they’ve started with a grain of truth and then spun a whole fantasy narrative out of it.

Bonkers. And very sad.
Click to expand...
Why is it there are so many people that see "hate" in every little comment they read just because they disagree with it? Especially when those comments are made by people they have never met. Hate is a strong word!
 
basilrobbie said:
I've been listening to or watching news programmes since very early this morning, and it has been grim stuff. That the US intelligentsia is shocked by what has happened comes as no surprise. That they have no idea what will happen next - or should - is more of a worry.

I think the immediate priority is the next two weeks. They need to get to the 21st without widespread disorder ; they need to make sure that Trump can't pour any more petrol on the fire and - more relevantly for us - that he isn't able to lash out beyond their borders.

The 25th Amendment is in vogue today. I don't envy Pence and the Cabinet in trying to decide whether that is the right option for them. It might seem attractive as a short-term measure. But the way it works risks splitting the Republican Party in two in a way that might be terminal. As it happens, I think that split might be coming no matter what happens.

In fact, the GOP is in a bind. There is a significant minority within its constituency who actually owe a stronger allegiance to Trump than they do to the Party. It is said today that 45% of Republicans think yesterday's events were justified. But I am more interested in the 55% who don't believe this. Is the Republican Party under this gang of crooks really their party anymore? I suppose only time will tell ; but it hardly helps the electoral chances of a Party that has lost seven out of the last eight popular votes for the Presidency. Not least because it energises and mobilises the Democrats.

Politically, the Democrats can probably hardly believe their luck. It's hard to see how this, combined in changes to demography and administrative reform isn't going to help their electability. But they do have to manage the nation through this crisis into calmer waters. In that sense, we are all lucky that a calm head is going to be in charge. I think Biden is exactly what they need at the moment.

That leaves two big problems. One is what happens to Trump himself. I have little doubt that he knew what was going to happen yesterday, and had some hand in orchestrating it. He deserves all the criminal sanctions that are coming his way, albeit they risk making a martyr out of him.

Which leads to the biggest problem they have, which is more social than political. They have a hard core of people - mainly white, poorly educated, working class - who are astonishingly ignorant and therefore manipulable to an extraordinary degree. Their sense of alienation has been fuelled, manipulated and exploited over the last five years or so. And even if the Manipulator In Chief is going to be shown the door, they - and the political capital they represent - are going to be here to stay. Worrying times.
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They really are the laughing stock of world right now, maybe a civil war.
 
ElBurroSinNombre said:
I didn't have you down as a modern day Norman Tebbit 😃
But in way it goes back to my post above. It is all very well to rely on people to take opportunities where they exist and are accessible. However in some areas of the country they just don't really exist. And that is where the government needs to act instead of allowing generations of decay to set in.
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He is no Tebbit.

He's losing it a bit now but if not he'd be the Home Secretary in my dream cabinet.
 
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